---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/22/18: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:45 AM - Re: Kolbers in Florida (Robpen5557) 2. 04:48 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (John Hauck) 3. 07:51 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Richard Pike) 4. 08:02 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill Berle) 5. 08:44 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Rex Rodebush) 6. 09:18 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (John Hauck) 7. 10:27 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill Berle) 8. 10:38 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Richard Pike) 9. 12:00 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Jerry-TS-MkII) 10. 03:32 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (John Hauck) 11. 03:35 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (John Hauck) 12. 05:06 PM - Kolb History (John Hauck) 13. 05:25 PM - Re: Kolb History (John Hauck) 14. 05:34 PM - Re: Kolb History (George Helton) 15. 06:07 PM - Re: Kolb History (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:43 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolbers in Florida From: "Robpen5557" Al Rodenbush. I somehow had you owning a Mark III but no matter, Im glad I got in touch with you. Do you remember our conversation before Oshkosh. Im planning on heading to Florida on the 29th of Sept. Probably stop for the night in Tallahassee, then leave early Sunday to head to your place. Let me know if that works for you. That would be Sunday AM the 30th of September. I will be leaving the following Saturday most likely coming back the other way. So, if that works better that would be great. Either one. Do, you know the other Kolbers in Florida? Like Geroge Alexander in Palmetto, FL. Or John Dark in Punta Gorda? Thanks Robert Lobdell Waskom, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482625#482625 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:31 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Rick G/Kolbers: Elevator hinges are very difficult to mount exactly centered. The result is a little fore and aft motion of the horizontal stabilizer. How do you compensate for that fore and aft movement with tail boom gap seals? john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle When you do get the HS where you want it, consider making seals for the gap between the HS and the boom tube. If it responds like the Mk III you'll find the rudder effectiveness much improved, to the point that you can level the wings while in a stall just like a 172, something a stock Mk III will not do. Rick Girard ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle From: "Richard Pike" Use a strip of thin aluminum angle, taper it so the front is wider than the rear. Paint it to match your airplane and glue a length of rubber u-channel along the outside edge to barely touch the stab. Allows the stab to move fore and aft a bit, and also to fold. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal w/potentially functional Rotax 277 (it went together today) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482627#482627 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/gap_seal_961.jpeg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:37 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle On Wed, 8/22/18, John Hauck wrote: " Elevator hinges are very difficult to mount exactly centered. The result is a little fore and aft motion of the horizontal stabilizer. How do you compensate for that fore and aft movement with tail boom gap seals? " Now I understand why the stabilizer front attach brackets have a little fore-aft wiggle room in them. I always wondered why there was that extra space. Forgive the intrusion, I cannot answer for Rick, but I can add something similar that works from my experience with gliders. We use "wiper seals" or "wiper fairings" on a lot of control surfaces. The sealing material or fairing attached to one of the surfaces and just SLIDES on the other moving part with a small amount of pressure holding it in place. Same principle as a garage door seal, where it cannot be attached to both the garage door and the floor. So the bottom of the seal slides on the floor as you open the garage door. In the case of the Kolb stabilizer, the seal also has to allow the stabilizer to fold upward for storage. One easy way to do this is to put weatherstrip foam tape on the "root rib" tube of the stabilizer. Use thick enough weatherstrip that the non-adhesive edge of the tape contacts the tailboom tube. Apply a layer of smooth tape over this weatherstripping such that it is "wrapped around" from the top edge of the stabilizer around the weatherstrip and then down around to the bottom edge of the stabilizer. The tape is stuck only to the stabilizer and the weatherstrip, and it is NOT stuck or attached to the boom tube. The outside non-sticky smooth side of the tape slides against the boom tube, held in place by the weatherstripping foam as a "spring". So when the stabilizer moves fore and aft the tape just slides agaainst the boom tube, and when you fold up the tail for storage the seal just rotates out of the way without interfering with the folding. Because the stabilizer is at some angle to the boom tube, you may have to trim and shape the weatherstrip to fit against the curve of the tube... do all of this before you apply the outer layer of tape. In practice it may turn out to be easier or more durable to mount the seal to the boom tube instead of the stabilizer root, but the principle would be the same. Slight pressure from the squishy foam weatherstrip pressing lightly against the root edge of the stabilizer. I won't know which side is better to mount the seal on until I start making seals for mine, but I am pretty confident that the principle will work. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle From: "Rex Rodebush" Richard and all, I have gap seals on everything but the horiz. stabilizer to tube. Have had no problems with the rudder but am wondering if it would be worth it to add the gap seal? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482629#482629 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:29 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Never encountered a problem with any of my Kolbs or others because they did not have gap seals on horizontal stabilizer/tail boom or elevator/horizontal stabilizer. Not saying that it would not improve performance, but I haven't found a requirement to do so. Sort of like VGs. Over 3.400.0 hours without them. No problems flying. After installation of VGs there was an improvement in stall speed, slow speed flight, and landing. These were small improvements to an already excellent flying aircraft. One mph, more or less, improvement if stall speed when the aircraft is stalling at 30-32 mph without them really isn't a big improvement, but it is an improvement. What difference is it going to make in the long run? john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 10:02 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle On Wed, 8/22/18, John Hauck wrote: " Elevator hinges are very difficult to mount exactly centered. The result is a little fore and aft motion of the horizontal stabilizer. How do you compensate for that fore and aft movement with tail boom gap seals? " Now I understand why the stabilizer front attach brackets have a little fore-aft wiggle room in them. I always wondered why there was that extra space. Forgive the intrusion, I cannot answer for Rick, but I can add something similar that works from my experience with gliders. We use "wiper seals" or "wiper fairings" on a lot of control surfaces. The sealing material or fairing attached to one of the surfaces and just SLIDES on the other moving part with a small amount of pressure holding it in place. Same principle as a garage door seal, where it cannot be attached to both the garage door and the floor. So the bottom of the seal slides on the floor as you open the garage door. In the case of the Kolb stabilizer, the seal also has to allow the stabilizer to fold upward for storage. One easy way to do this is to put weatherstrip foam tape on the "root rib" tube of the stabilizer. Use thick enough weatherstrip that the non-adhesive edge of the tape contacts the tailboom tube. Apply a layer of smooth tape over this weatherstripping such that it is "wrapped around" from the top edge of the stabilizer around the weatherstrip and then down around to the bottom edge of the stabilizer. The tape is stuck only to the stabilizer and the weatherstrip, and it is NOT stuck or attached to the boom tube. The outside non-sticky smooth side of the tape slides against the boom tube, held in place by the weatherstripping foam as a "spring". So when the stabilizer moves fore and aft the tape just slides agaainst the boom tube, and when you fold up the tail for storage the seal just rotates out of the way without interfering with the folding. Because the stabilizer is at some angle to the boom tube, you may have to trim and shape the weatherstrip to fit against the curve of the tube... do all of this before you apply the outer layer of tape. In practice it may turn out to be easier or more durable to mount the seal to the boom tube instead of the stabilizer root, but the principle would be the same. Slight pressure from the squishy foam weatherstrip pressing lightly against the root edge of the stabilizer. I won't know which side is better to mount the seal on until I start making seals for mine, but I am pretty confident that the principle will work. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:27:39 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle On Wed, 8/22/18, John Hauck wrote: What difference is it going to make in the long run? I have no idea, it was only in response to another post regarding the tail seal. I have no idea whatsoever if it is worthwhile aerodynamically. I think he commented that a seal might make his fin or rudder more effective??? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle From: "Richard Pike" The only reason I gap sealed my stab to the boom tube was to possibly cut down on drag. Nothing changed. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Today we paint the fabric repair and fix the nose bowl) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482632#482632 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle From: "Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire@gmail.com> Richard, Re: You can do a pretty good job of streamlining the round lift struts with a length of aluminum flashing, folded over and JB Welded (Liquid Nails, double stick carpet tape, etc) to your strut, with some aluminum duct tape around the front side to seal it up. You only fair the rear side. Not ideal, but a great improvement over a round tube. Or you can get really serious like Jack Hart: http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly91.html I did look at his link. And it makes me CRINGE when I think of someone A) sealing up their most important part, and B) after sanding on the aluminum with a drywall sponge block. Every scratch, (or carbon pencil mark) on aluminum, is where it will break later!! I have done lots of progressive composite work. The example shown was one piece, with walls as thick as paper, and it weighed the same as one sheet of paper too. While it's not a strut cover application, I'll be making similar sections which are slightly thicker, removable, and won't be scratching the struts either! My stabilizer gap seal will look like the aluminum one posted recently, but will also be of composite materials. Great stuff, no corrosion, no stress fractures! Jerry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482633#482633 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/paperthin_524.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:37 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle I think I was talking about a mph or two stall speed when I am already at 30-32 mph. How accurate is my ASI indicator at those slow speeds? john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:27 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle On Wed, 8/22/18, John Hauck wrote: What difference is it going to make in the long run? I have no idea, it was only in response to another post regarding the tail seal. I have no idea whatsoever if it is worthwhile aerodynamically. I think he commented that a seal might make his fin or rudder more effective??? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:59 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle As I has said many times, the Kolb is the epitome of drag. Lift struts and a 4 inch faring on the windshield did more than anything else on my FS. After that, forget it. On the other hand fat tires/small tires made no difference. I flew one Alaska flight with 6x6 tires and the next with 8x6. Absolutely no difference. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle The only reason I gap sealed my stab to the boom tube was to possibly cut down on drag. Nothing changed. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Today we paint the fabric repair and fix the nose bowl) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482632#482632 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:37 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb History A FF from 2004 that flew perfectly IIRC. Notice the control surfaces are, for the most part, where they belong. Notice the ailerons look like they are slightly below the bottom surface of the wing, which makes it look like they are slightly reflexed. During that week I bumped the right aileron stop once during serious turbulence on landing. I was never in any danger of not having enough aileron authority. Was probably my overreaction when I got scared. ;-) This was Sun and Fun 2004. My how time flies. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:19 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb History It's Hell getting old. Change reflexed to drooped. I think I even proof read that msg before I punched it off. Be patient with a geriatric Kolber. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:06 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb History A FF from 2004 that flew perfectly IIRC. Notice the control surfaces are, for the most part, where they belong. Notice the ailerons look like they are slightly below the bottom surface of the wing, which makes it look like they are slightly reflexed. During that week I bumped the right aileron stop once during serious turbulence on landing. I was never in any danger of not having enough aileron authority. Was probably my overreaction when I got scared. ;-) <<...>> This was Sun and Fun 2004. My how time flies. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:01 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb History John, that has to be the prettiest Firefly of all time. George H. Firestar Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 22, 2018, at 8:25 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > It's Hell getting old. Change reflexed to drooped. I think I even proof r ead that msg before I punched it off. Be patient with a geriatric Kolber. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@ matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:06 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb History > > A FF from 2004 that flew perfectly IIRC. Notice the control surfaces are, for the most part, where they belong. Notice the ailerons look like they a re slightly below the bottom surface of the wing, which makes it look like t hey are slightly reflexed. During that week I bumped the right aileron stop once during serious turbulence on landing. I was never in any danger of no t having enough aileron authority. Was probably my overreaction when I got scared. ;-) > > <<...>> > > This was Sun and Fun 2004. My how time flies. > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:33 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb History Bryan Melborn built and finished it. It was a beautiful airplane. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:34 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb History John, that has to be the prettiest Firefly of all time. George H. Firestar Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On Aug 22, 2018, at 8:25 PM, John Hauck wrote: It's Hell getting old. Change reflexed to drooped. I think I even proof read that msg before I punched it off. Be patient with a geriatric Kolber. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:06 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb History A FF from 2004 that flew perfectly IIRC. Notice the control surfaces are, for the most part, where they belong. Notice the ailerons look like they are slightly below the bottom surface of the wing, which makes it look like they are slightly reflexed. During that week I bumped the right aileron stop once during serious turbulence on landing. I was never in any danger of not having enough aileron authority. Was probably my overreaction when I got scared. ;-) <<...>> This was Sun and Fun 2004. My how time flies. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.