Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:40 AM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (racerjerry)
2. 07:08 AM - ORATEX (jim b)
3. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (George Helton)
4. 08:26 AM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Rick Neilsen)
5. 10:36 AM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Jerry-TS-MkII)
6. 03:41 PM - Should we not be careful of what we post here? (Jerry-TS-MkII)
7. 04:48 PM - Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? (George Helton)
8. 11:13 PM - Re: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Bill Berle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Bill, I too did not want to drill holes in the bottom of the fuel tanks of my 447
powered Firestar II and opted to connect the tanks as you did but was disappointed
when they refused to feed equally. They feed somewhat close, but certainly
not equal. If you separate the tanks in an effort to correct a CG problem,
it will make fuel feed matters worse.
Just remember that when the first tank sucks air, the fuel supply to your engine
is GONE.
I was a brand new Kolb pilot practicing "Where would I land now if the engine should
quit."
Need I say more?
Jerry King
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482739#482739
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Good Morning
Reintroduction. I have owned a firestar kxp and a mk3 Xtra in the past with about
400 hours of kolb time in my log. I recently sold my experimental plane and
want to get back into lo-n-slo flying so I am going to build a firefly.
Because I am lacking a place to paint, I am looking at using oratex 600 on the
firefly. Does anybody have experience covering a FF with it? How did you like
working with it? If you have some pictures of your covering job, would you mind
sharing them? Any and all information pertaining to oratex is appreciated.
Thanks
Jim Ballenger
Ocala, Florida
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482745#482745
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Its always good to have those deadstick landing spots in sight. Its also good to
practice engine off deadsticks now and then.
People tend to worry a lot about things that never happen. I used the rubber grommets
(actually they are some kind synthetic stuff.)from the early days of my
ultralight career in Eipper MXs, Spectrum Beavers and my Kolb MKII. If you do
your maintenance and change them every two or three years they will never give
you a problem. I change my fuel lines every year as a part of my pre-season
maintenance.
In my younger days and my MKII, I really liked going upside down so I used a crossover
line between the two plastic 5 gallon tanks supplied by Kolb (using the
grommets) and metal elbows for the crossover lines. We used what we called clunks
which dangled down from top of one of fuel tanks for fuel feed lines to
the fuel pump and filter. They moved with the fuel even when you were upside down.
They worked great on the Kolb, Avenger and Beavers. Never had an engine go
silent. I never did extended inverted flight. But, Kolbs will do a nice split
S, lazy 8s and occasional loops. I never tried negative G maneuvers. I wasnt
completely stupid. Im out of aerobics these days. I survived my youth. In 35+
years of ultralighting Ive had two for real engine outs and they were both my
fault.
George H.
Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Do not archive
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 28, 2018, at 7:40 AM, racerjerry <gnking2@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> Bill, I too did not want to drill holes in the bottom of the fuel tanks of my
447 powered Firestar II and opted to connect the tanks as you did but was disappointed
when they refused to feed equally. They feed somewhat close, but certainly
not equal. If you separate the tanks in an effort to correct a CG problem,
it will make fuel feed matters worse.
>
> Just remember that when the first tank sucks air, the fuel supply to your engine
is GONE.
>
> I was a brand new Kolb pilot practicing "Where would I land now if the engine
should quit."
> Need I say more?
>
> Jerry King
>
> --------
> Jerry King
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482739#482739
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
I know Bill has verified the W&B is correct and the wing angle is correct
but based on the horizontal stabilizer angle the wing just has to be set
with too high of angle of attack. Bill check two things. Check the angle of
the underside of the wing and the angle of the horizontal stabilizer from
level. I'm betting they are real close to being the same. The wing will
have a bit more.
Then raise the tail and set it on something where the horizontal stabilizer
is level. The stand back and look at the airplane. I think you will see the
tail is very high and the nose is very low. The ground will represent the
direction of airflow the plane will see in flight. Wind hitting the
additional surface of the fuselage due to this flight attitude maybe enough
additional drag to cause your speed reduction.
See the attached. I have exaggerated the drawing to better show what I
think Bill's plane maybe like. Again the drawing shows much more
exaggerated angle of the wing and horizontal stabilizer than Bill's plane.
I think the leading edge of the wing needs to be lowered. Get two of the
Kolb (Steven Green) adjustable universal joint fittings and install them on
both wings raising the trailing edge as far as they go or maybe just a bit
at a time and go fly. Be prepared for the need of up elevator. Does your
cruise speed increase any? The adjustable universal joint fittings allow
you to change the angle of attack of the wing for testing purposes and make
it easy to go back to where it was. I think you will need to reduce the
angle of attack quite a bit on the wing to get the plane flying level.
Remember to lower the horizontal stabilizer.
As always worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 6:38 PM Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
> It would appear as though you may have painted yourself into a corner.
> When I got my first one it would only fly at about 50 mph. The fabric had
> not had the full coats that is recommended by poly fiber and the texture of
> the fabric was rough. Not knowing any better I painted it with auto paint,
> which necessitated that I recover it some 10 years later, but it gave me
> about 10 miles more speed. I made a xcountry trip to NMex and used the
> cloth wrap around fabric that comes from the Kolb full enclosure, and it
> cut my speed by about 5 MPH. The plane does better with the "shuttle cock"
> configuration. Streamlined struts and legs gave me about 5-6 MPH increase.
>
> I have a couple of suggestions for you- secure a hose to the relief tube
> on the oil container and route it out the bottom of the fabric in the fuel
> compartment. It won't solve your air problem, but it will put the oil where
> it isn't a problem. As for the fuel tanks, I ran the "pickup tubes" to a
> selector switch at the left side of the seat, set the EIS to alarm at one
> gallon of fuel left, put a double throw switch so that I could monitor both
> tanks individually. Then from the fuel selector valve I ran a tube to the
> facet fuel pump that I secured to the cross tubes behind the jump seat.
>
> Worth what you paid for it,
> Larry
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Bill..
Some folks (and you) may not appreciate this post. But it's with much respect.
From a distance, you are making ME very nervous with what you have done, and
what you are doing. Why? A few comments below:
AFTER you have added all kinds of weight, different prop height, stab angle changes,
oil coolers, exhaust tubes, and other assorted landing gear truck parts
and wheels.. you wonder why it doesn't fly well?
You claim to be a experienced sailplane and GA pilot, but some of the stuff you
are doing does not indicate "informed" decisions. To wit:
Who makes a big scoop on the bottom (pressure) side, piped to the low pressure
side.. and still expects there to be "lift"? No worries about the tips flying,
while you have destroyed the lift in the center of the span. NO BODY should
EVER pipe two fuel tanks together, as racerJerry already mentioned, before I started
typing. And that is absolute common knowledge among those who.. live..
and some who force land with luck. You couldn't quote ANY of the numbers on
your weight and balance, yet you were out flying it, and jacking the stabilizer
around. You've taken off for a cross country, with a known bad fuel supply
scenario, and a very unknown aircraft?? And from this forum, I don't see where
you have listened much to a lot of good input. Instead you want to say it's
not acceptable to your flying needs and habits?
Other than this heads up.. I'm gonna pass on any further intelligent commentary
on your subjects. I think you need to find some real local EAA guys to help
you TRULY make some changes.. and THEN, make some needed changes to your airplane
as well!!!
Ya know.. "unacceptable flight characteristics" might be the best thing you have
said. Try sailing. Boats fit into narrow hangers very easily.
Jerry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482750#482750
Message 6
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| Subject: | Should we not be careful of what we post here? |
To all..
Admittedly, despite lurking for quite some time, I'm new to the forum, and actively
posting. Having been the son of a Troop glider mechanic, who knew proper
aircraft proceedures, and having rebuilt 3 GA, and then watched many EXPs go
together, and then ULs and LSAs... well my outlook may be more on the serious
side of aviation practices, and caution.
One of many "too short" stories? My dad repaired a Champ wing, because his pilot
friend ran it into a tree off the side of his back yard runway. Dad did fine
work, and his A&P friend signed off. The young bold pilot jumped in, and headed
down the runway. He was barely off the ground when both ailerons went full
deflection.. and I think dad's heart stopped briefly, thinking something came
un-done. Well the ol Champ rolled 360 to upright, and then around the patch.
When he landed he jumped out with a big grin, "Howd ya like my test flight?"
Under his breath, I could hear dad mutter, "100 HP motor, 10 HP brain".
Well.. THEN this same guy borrowed his friends brand new Hyper-Light.. a UL version
of the Hyper-Bipe. He put it inverted too, over the runway.. briefly, until
the wings folded negative. You could say he found the Center of Gravity and
Nirvana all at the same time. Didn't make it to "old, Bold pilot" category.
Some planes will go upside down.. do the loop-de-loop.. and woo the crowds. But
if you google Kolbs and inverted flight.. they might read a post here, which
says, "It can be done". Pretty sure Kolbs do just fine right side up.. but they
aren't designed or stressed for inverted, or aerobatics. And while some minor
mods, or larger well designed ones may also work.. it might be best to post
all with caution stated, least someone else thinks it fine to self teach aerobatics
in a Kolb. Some things I've already seen on here, in a few weeks, basically
are "way wrong" in light of living a long healthy aviation life.
Just hoping that "just because someone else" can roll a Champ, on a test flight,
that it doesn't mean they all work so well. Or maybe I just know too many dead
pilots.. most of which didn't assemble correctly, or lacked judgment, or self-training,
or good common sense? Like 3 consecutive loops in a Pterodactyl(!?!?),
before it struck the ground in a fatal way. Luckily he didn't spill any
of his beer!! In most cases, it wasn't the fault of the airplane that it, and
the pilots are no longer with us. Just sayin...
Jerry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482754#482754
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| Subject: | Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? |
Jerry, I dont think youll find anyone on this list who will advocate doing aerobics
in Kolbs. Have they been done, yes. I know a few guys myself who didnt survive,
none were flying Kolbs at the time. Im grateful I did. And I was trained
in aerobics. I think a lot of us have done things in life that we wouldnt recommend
others to do. Like I said earlier. Im glad that I survived my youth.
Have a great day.
George H.
Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 28, 2018, at 6:41 PM, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> To all..
> Admittedly, despite lurking for quite some time, I'm new to the forum, and actively
posting. Having been the son of a Troop glider mechanic, who knew proper
aircraft proceedures, and having rebuilt 3 GA, and then watched many EXPs go
together, and then ULs and LSAs... well my outlook may be more on the serious
side of aviation practices, and caution.
>
> One of many "too short" stories? My dad repaired a Champ wing, because his pilot
friend ran it into a tree off the side of his back yard runway. Dad did
fine work, and his A&P friend signed off. The young bold pilot jumped in, and
headed down the runway. He was barely off the ground when both ailerons went
full deflection.. and I think dad's heart stopped briefly, thinking something
came un-done. Well the ol Champ rolled 360 to upright, and then around the patch.
When he landed he jumped out with a big grin, "Howd ya like my test flight?"
Under his breath, I could hear dad mutter, "100 HP motor, 10 HP brain".
>
> Well.. THEN this same guy borrowed his friends brand new Hyper-Light.. a UL version
of the Hyper-Bipe. He put it inverted too, over the runway.. briefly,
until the wings folded negative. You could say he found the Center of Gravity
and Nirvana all at the same time. Didn't make it to "old, Bold pilot" category.
>
> Some planes will go upside down.. do the loop-de-loop.. and woo the crowds.
But if you google Kolbs and inverted flight.. they might read a post here, which
says, "It can be done". Pretty sure Kolbs do just fine right side up.. but
they aren't designed or stressed for inverted, or aerobatics. And while some
minor mods, or larger well designed ones may also work.. it might be best to
post all with caution stated, least someone else thinks it fine to self teach
aerobatics in a Kolb. Some things I've already seen on here, in a few weeks,
basically are "way wrong" in light of living a long healthy aviation life.
>
> Just hoping that "just because someone else" can roll a Champ, on a test flight,
that it doesn't mean they all work so well. Or maybe I just know too many
dead pilots.. most of which didn't assemble correctly, or lacked judgment, or
self-training, or good common sense? Like 3 consecutive loops in a Pterodactyl(!?!?),
before it struck the ground in a fatal way. Luckily he didn't spill
any of his beer!! In most cases, it wasn't the fault of the airplane that it,
and the pilots are no longer with us. Just sayin...
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482754#482754
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Well Jerry I appreciate your comments and the fact that you have shared an opinion.
It's hard for me to not feel like I'm being chatised a little, but I will
try to respond to your post using facts more than rhetoric.
Yes I added weight to the basic Kolb design. I did it for the same reason that
every production aircraft manufacturer both civil and military does... in order
to install specific equipment for a specialized purpose. I added steel landing
gear legs like John H and many many other Kolb owners did. Because for off-airport
flying the Kolb aluminum gear legs have been found to be too light duty
(by some of the highly respected people on tis list). The heavy gear legs I
used were Kolb brand gear legs only from a different model (Slingshot). Steel
gear legs are a very common upgrade for Kolbs as far as I have read on this list.
I think Kolb suggests them as an upgrade if I am not mistaken?
My propeller height is within A COUPLE OF INCHES of the stock Firestar. I have
researched and read about all the Kolb owners on this list who have figured out
how to deal with the high thrust line. The higher the thrust line the more the
airplane tries to pitch nose down with power. The lower the thrust line the
less it does this. My thrust line is less than 34 inches above the tailboom,
which (Kolbers please correct me if I am wrong) is close or identical to everyone
else's thrust line.
Yes I made a custom exhaust system. But I did not start out wanting to do this,
I had a perfectly good HKS factory exhaust system. The problem is that the stock
exhaust pipes prevented the wings from folding normally. I could have raised
the engine up higher but this would have made the pitch-over worse, and I wanted
to keep the thrust line where everyone else's was. So THAT is the only reason
I started making a custom exhaust, not because I was trying to do something
radically different.
There's no "truck parts" on this aircraft. I have the original Azusa Tri-Star wheels
that came with the aircraft when I bought it, and one of the members of
this list kindly sent me a set of bush tires for it. The bush tires I have are
the same as Larry C's I believe, and I know others have used these same tires
and even larger. By the way they have about the same frontal area as the Carlisle
Turf Glide tires that Kolb recommends for off-airport flying.
The stabilizer angle changes were taken from Old Poops' website almost exactly.
I also have gotten off-list e-mails from other Kolbers who did the same thing.
As a matter of fact I started with 1/8" LESS change than Richard had done, in
order to be conservative and less risky.
Yes I am a low to moderately experienced GA and sailplane pilot. No military service
and no airline flying. About 1600 total time. Although it clearly has little
or NO bearing on Kolb flyiing, I have competed at the Reno Air Races (5th
place Silver) and in the US National Soaring Championships (9th place, 17th place).
That and five bucks gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks :) None of the
Reno racing experience has been any help at all with this Kolb, and only a little
of the sailplane experience has been relevant.
The scoop on thebottom of the wing and venting it on the top was a precautionary
measure because thre HKS engines are known to run hot and the manual has strict
limits on oil temp. Over the last 2 months here in Southern California it
has been 100-115 degrees during the day. So my "informed' decision was to make
sure I had a little too much oil cooling and I could always close some of it
off... rather than risk damaging the engine. It seemed like the safer, more responsible
thing to do. Also, the oil cooler is located aft of the thicker part
of the wing where it should not be as much of an effect on lift.Most of the lift
on a Kolb airfoil is made near the front, so I had to make an educated guess
and hope that this oil cooler did not put a big hole in my elliptical lift
distribution. But now that the drag has become my largest issue, and the engine
runs cool, I can close off a large part of that bottom-to-top airflow.
The radiator-in-the-wing design was based on information from a NACA research project
in the 1930's, where they tested several ducts, inlets, and outlets. SOME
of the outlets on the top surface of the wing in that research study actually
were shown to increase lift. If Jerry or anyone on the Kolb list wants to see
the NACA report I will gladly post a link.
"Piping two fuel tanks together" is exactly what I did NOT do. I have separate
tanks that only have a gascolator in common. Other than that, they have separate
pickup tubes and separate vent tubes. By having them connect to the gascolator
I had hoped to have them function like one larger tank but they did not do
that. HOWEVER, even though one fuel tank was feeding more fuel to the engine
than the other, the only effect that could have on the aircraft is making it equal
to a stock plans built Kolb ultralight with one 5 gallon tank. How is a Kolb
with 5 gallons of usable fuel unsafe? Are all the Firefly ultralights and
older Firestar 1 aircraft (with one fuel tank) unsafe to fly outside of the traffic
pattern? I took off on a 25 mile flight, planning to land at the halfway
point, with AT LEAST 5 USABLE GALLONS of fuel on board. Does this seem unsafe
or ill-advised to you Jerry?
I had the weight and balance numbers done by a professional well before I was out
flying the aircraft. A quick search of my Kolb List postings will verify this.
The weight and balance results from a qualified engineer using good digital
scales, indicated the aircraft was near the aft CG limit but did not exceed
it. When we did the weight and balance a SECOND time because of this list, I chose
to publish those second numbers, which were almost the same as they had been
the first time (I lost a few pounds personally). The fact that I did not quote
the numerical results form the first weight and balance does not mean those
numbers did not exist. I did not quote my pilot's license number before the
first flight either. It is 2287853.
I listened to EVERYONE's input and considered it all carefully. The archives will
show clearly that I was thanking everyone ten or twelve times for participating
in the discussion. Some experienced Kolb owners said that they had also jacked
up the tail on their airplane and it was not harmful. Other experienced
Kolb owners said that they had never heard of any one jacking up the tail, and
it was not safe. Now that the aircraft at least flies hands-off at some speed,
whose input was the better option?
A lot of people said "just add weight to the front". I CANNOT ADD WEIGHT to the
front of the aircraft without exceeding the maximum takeoff weight of 725 pounds.
A lot of people swore that the aircraft had to be horribly tail heavy and
way out of the allowable CG range in order to need any significant amount of
nose-down stick force. That input turned out to be wrong, unless Kolb's factory
CG range is unsafe to fly.
After speaking with John H and others on this list, and LISTENING to the input
of the Kolbers, I have come to the conclusion that it is indeed safe to droop
the ailerons slightly in an attempt to eliminate some of the forward stick pressure.
Rather than just blindly changing the Kolb wing design, I wanted to be
conservative and safe, and determine whether drooping the ailerons could cause
early tip stall or not. Several people verified tha it was OK to do this (change
the Kolb wing design to trim out the aircraft in flight), and so when these
other issues are sorted out I know I can safely start drooping the ailerons
in order to lower the stabilizer a little.
I cannot see how my being cautious about deviating from the Kolb plans makes me
OK in some areas (droop the ailerons below the wing) and wrong/disrespectful
in other areas (adjust the stabilizer angle). Jerry perhaps you can make a list
of where it is OK to redesign the aerodynamics of the Kolb, and where it is
not OK.
By the way I AM one of those "real local EAA" people. Last December was the 40th
anniversary of my first solo and 22 years as an EAA chapter member.
I'll let the comment about taking up sailing go, because I promised I would keep
my temper under control on this list. Jerry, I would, however, very much like
to hear about your specific level of experience with building or flying experimental
aircraft, flight testing experimental aircraft, and technical engineering
/ modifications to aircraft systems.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 8/28/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2018, 10:36 AM
"Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire@gmail.com>
Bill..
Some folks (and you) may not appreciate
this post. But it's with much respect. From a
distance, you are making ME very nervous with what you have
done, and what you are doing. Why? A few
comments below:
AFTER you have added all kinds of
weight, different prop height, stab angle changes, oil
coolers, exhaust tubes, and other assorted landing gear
truck parts and wheels.. you wonder why it doesn't fly
well?
You claim to be a experienced sailplane
and GA pilot, but some of the stuff you are doing does not
indicate "informed" decisions. To wit:
Who makes a big scoop on the bottom
(pressure) side, piped to the low pressure side.. and still
expects there to be "lift"? No worries about the tips
flying, while you have destroyed the lift in the center of
the span. NO BODY should EVER pipe two fuel tanks
together, as racerJerry already mentioned, before I started
typing. And that is absolute common knowledge among
those who.. live.. and some who force land with luck.
You couldn't quote ANY of the numbers on your weight and
balance, yet you were out flying it, and jacking the
stabilizer around. You've taken off for a cross
country, with a known bad fuel supply scenario, and a very
unknown aircraft?? And from this forum, I don't see
where you have listened much to a lot of good input.
Instead you want to say it's not acceptable to your flying
needs and habits?
Other than this heads up.. I'm gonna
pass on any further intelligent commentary on your
subjects. I think you need to find some real local EAA
guys to help you TRULY make some changes.. and THEN, make
some needed changes to your airplane as well!!!
Ya know.. "unacceptable flight
characteristics" might be the best thing you have
said. Try sailing. Boats fit into narrow hangers
very easily.
Jerry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482750#482750
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