Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:14 AM - Re: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Bill Berle)
2. 05:37 AM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Richard Pike)
3. 08:14 AM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Jerry-TS-MkII)
4. 08:55 AM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Jerry-TS-MkII)
5. 09:00 AM - Re: ORATEX (Rex Rodebush)
6. 09:20 AM - Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? (Jerry-TS-MkII)
7. 09:46 AM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Jerry-TS-MkII)
8. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? (George Helton)
9. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Bill Berle)
10. 10:15 AM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Jerry-TS-MkII)
11. 10:41 AM - Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? (Jerry-TS-MkII)
12. 10:51 AM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Jerry-TS-MkII)
13. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Bill Berle)
14. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? (George Helton)
15. 12:38 PM - Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Jerry-TS-MkII)
16. 05:18 PM - Re: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed (Bill)
17. 11:34 PM - Firestar Re-Configure Project (Bill Berle)
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Fair enough. From one old model airplane builder to another, you have my attention.
My modifications to the aircraft have not succeeded as I hoped they would,
despite whatever logic and thought I had put into them. Guilty as charged.
To take the Kolb Firestar 2, and make it into a super-STOL off-airport machine,
and yet to make it as reliable as humanly possible (because I'm flying it over
solid city and houses for 5 miles on the way out of, and back in to my home
airport), what changes would you suggest I should and should not have made, and
what remedies or repairs to my failed ideas and changes should I make now?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 8/29/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire@gmail.com> wrote:
Bill..
Did I get your attention?
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Go look at Larry Cottrell's and make it just like his?
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Fabric is repainted, tomorrow the motor mounts. Maybe.)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Bill,
I've got a lot to do today.. but consider the following. And as others have said,
anything you change is YOUR responsibility. I found photos of your stabilizer
position, and a side view of your plane. You should post more, showing your
center section, oil cooler, from above and below. So here are my quick thoughts.
Each item below might be for experimentation, or permanent. Others have
mentioned most of this too. Might take all (or none) to make it fly right.
And some are serious mods in and of themselves. Will try to go from easy to
complex. But you should select which ones and what order.
Nice muffler. Take it off! That reduces your weight slightly, and moves CG forward.
Both good. You might end up with even shorter straight pipes (but ask
HKS experts first). [Less weight, less drag, moves CG forward slightly more].
Droop both ailerons. Easy. Think 2 (or 3) of flaps. Shouldn't affect flight
adversely, but ask others (again if you must.. they have all said this already).
Will produce slightly more lift, and pitch forward slightly. This and other
things might get your stab angle reduced.
Do I understand you have two 5 gallons tanks, front and back? Remove the rear
one, and plumb the front one properly. Less weight, forward CG. This one is just
easy, reduces weight, improves CG.. if only for testing purposes.
That stab angle might be needed (as others have done).. but HUGE drag where the
two gaps meet the fuse tube. Make bent aluminum fillers.. or fiberglass to clean
up that junction and fill the gaps. The effect may be significant, from
a stabilizer effectiveness POV.. so do slow incremental run ups to your take off
speed. Some have said a filler here did not change much. But did they have
a "normal" junction between fuse tube and stab?? You have a open door, and
NEED the stab to work. (It has a hole in the middle as is, and your wing does
too.. if I read your posts correctly). Not good.
Your wing center section was questioned earlier.. my thoughts then, loose fabric.
Then you mentioned weird oil splatters/air flow patterns, and basically venting
of your airfoil. I would (early in this process) tape brightly colored
yarn in rows across the center section at various chord points.. (since your local
wind tunnel was probably sold to the car wash people). Beg, borrow or steal
a Go-Pro, or go to ebay and buy a micro cam, and a DVR. With a 9 volt battery,
that can assemble into the size of a pill bottle (and your Oxycontin is
likely empty anyway). Mount it where it won't go thru the prop, but record what
the yarns are doing at various speeds and flight angles. Something there is
very wrong. Do this BEFORE and after the next idea.
The oil cooler needs to just stick out into the air stream on the bottom side,
and EXIT on the bottom side. Seal the center section gap!!! If your do need
more airflow thru the cooler, make a exit surround that is flared outward.. it
will suck the air thru.
And if you can reconstruct the top wing center section, with something less draggy,
and that looks more like a complete airfoil, that would have to help.
More drastic? Raise your engine back to where the thrust line is by the book.
If you need the nose over for trim, (and/or stall recovery), higher is better.
You NEED forward trim.. CG helps that, a real airfoil helps, higher thrust
line, and even gap seals on stab. Any or all of those should help.. but be sure
to do a W&B, and keep records of each incremental change to note which helps
the most.
A 503 does have better power to weight ratio. Yeah I know.. sailboats are looking
better at that point. Without being there, or flying it.. it's difficult
to say or suggest more. But I believe all of the above would be improvements.
The plane (as I recall) was bought used. Did you weigh it before the mods? Paint
alone, can add a lot of weight. A well done recover job, and lighter finish
could benefit. Again, a BIG step.. but I think weight is a serious problem.
And you may end up reworking the angle of the wing relative to the fuse. But..
being heavy, will require a higher angle of attack, to produce more lift
(and sadly, drag). If you still have the lighter gear legs you might consider
using them. It does however move CG rearward, but maybe the weight savings is
worth it.. and with several other things moving CG forward.
I hope some of this makes sense, and even better if it works.
Jerry
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Bill..
Quick additions:
You said you had a large air scoop in front of the oil cooler. Yes? Most often
cooling issues (like on pusher engines) include cylinder shrouds that flare
outward near the prop. So that doubles the suction thru those shrouds. Forward
facing scoops often develop a high pressure area in front of them, and REDUCE
airflow. (Not the case when you vent the exit to the top of the wing). But
a flared (smaller sized) exit shroud might allow removal of a large forward
scoop. Easy enough to watch oil temps.. but if you can clean up airflow to the
prop and reduce drag in general that's always good. Main thing is to seal the
center section of the wing.
And re my earlier post.. and Bellaire comments.. the Grand Champ was the original/prototype
built by Berstling and Arnold Gilmore (?). I worked for Rick briefly.
What an amazing airplane builder. And indeed the prize was well earned..
just a super slick, well detailed aircraft. At one point he offered some steel
tube components.. but most people don't do that kind of "labor of love" airplane
building anymore. Sadly.
And my suggestions, and those of others?? I know you had good intentions (and
desires) for your plane.. but you might have been asking a lot of a plane that
flew well (basically as designed). Then again, if you start writing checks to
Just Aircraft... the price of a Kolb could be one months payment. 8-]
Hope it works out,
Jerry
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Use the Matronics Search Engine. There are 31 comments about Oratex from the Kolb
section alone.
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| Subject: | Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? |
George,
My previous post was not meant to be critical of you. Somewhat of a general POV
regarding this being a open forum. And yet I don't recall you mentioning earlier
your training in aerobatics. Glad you included it. That does make a huge
difference.
And as for me.. and what I might suggest to many who I have known personally, is
that they take this hobby seriously. Some don't! There are GA pilots, and
there are UL pilots.. and now LSA (in the middle). If I mentioned ULs to GA people
(back when).. I got shunned. And yet if I looked at some of the UL folks
(and too many laid-back, less experienced incidents and accidents).. I too could
see a gap in the level of commitment or knowledge. For the benefit of those
I know personally.. I stress education and knowledge.. and a more serious
approach to flying, maintenance, training, etc. When ULs came along, it opened
lots of doors for lots of people.. to enjoy flying. But.. it may have been
too easy, to take it seriously. We have all done things we regret, or viewed
later as risky.
My bucket list? ONE ITEM! Drive up to Chicago, and take the flight in their Extra
300 (?), with the aerobatic instructor... to go out and slice up the sky.
Should be fun!
Jerry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482798#482798
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
... and as previously mentioned by many.. reduce the drag with some strut fairings
if you don't have them already. Several posts with various ideas, or options.
And along those lines... streamlined strut 4130 isn't cheap.. but if you have one
or two long exhaust tubes going vertical between the engine and your boom tube,
think about buying a larger strut section from Wicks or your fav airplane
hardware store.. with the same internal area. Your exhaust tubes are likely
larger, and almost as long as your wing struts.. and right in front of the prop!
This is drag.. which almost no body else will have, due to your unusual exhaust.
Make up new streamlined exhaust tubes!
Wicks used to sell "cut-offs", for welding practice. You might ask them what they
have in streamlined shorts.. because your system might have some turns in
it anyway. Carefully cut/fit and have it welded.. and pay attention to any possible
cracking.. but it could be one more light-weight drag reduction.
Green Sky recently wrote to me about using short stacks on the HKS..
Jerry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482799#482799
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| Subject: | Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? |
I wasnt offended Jerry. I flight instructed out in SoCal for about 2 1/2 years
in Spectrum Beavers and the toughest trainees were all private pilots(which I
was when I discovered ultralighting. ) Im totally committed to flight safety.
Being a former USAF, C141 and F4 crewchief Im just committed to aircraft maintenance.
Like I always said, Im grateful to have survived the stupidity of my youth.
George H .
Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:19 PM, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> George,
> My previous post was not meant to be critical of you. Somewhat of a general
POV regarding this being a open forum. And yet I don't recall you mentioning
earlier your training in aerobatics. Glad you included it. That does make a
huge difference.
>
> And as for me.. and what I might suggest to many who I have known personally,
is that they take this hobby seriously. Some don't! There are GA pilots, and
there are UL pilots.. and now LSA (in the middle). If I mentioned ULs to GA
people (back when).. I got shunned. And yet if I looked at some of the UL folks
(and too many laid-back, less experienced incidents and accidents).. I too
could see a gap in the level of commitment or knowledge. For the benefit of
those I know personally.. I stress education and knowledge.. and a more serious
approach to flying, maintenance, training, etc. When ULs came along, it opened
lots of doors for lots of people.. to enjoy flying. But.. it may have been
too easy, to take it seriously. We have all done things we regret, or viewed
later as risky.
>
> My bucket list? ONE ITEM! Drive up to Chicago, and take the flight in their
Extra 300 (?), with the aerobatic instructor... to go out and slice up the sky.
Should be fun!
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482798#482798
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Tell me more about what Green Sky said regarding short stacks.
I had originally spoken to Jerry Olenik (RIP) at Green Sky and he gave me a rough
number of 24 inches from the exhaust flange to where the two pipes join. So
that is what I used on my system. And the only convenient place to run two 24
inch long tubes was down the back of the cage.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 8/30/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, August 30, 2018, 9:46 AM
"Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire@gmail.com>
... and as previously mentioned by
many.. reduce the drag with some strut fairings if you don't
have them already. Several posts with various ideas,
or options.
And along those lines... streamlined
strut 4130 isn't cheap.. but if you have one or two long
exhaust tubes going vertical between the engine and your
boom tube, think about buying a larger strut section from
Wicks or your fav airplane hardware store.. with the same
internal area. Your exhaust tubes are likely larger,
and almost as long as your wing struts.. and right in front
of the prop! This is drag.. which almost no body else
will have, due to your unusual exhaust. Make up new
streamlined exhaust tubes!
Wicks used to sell "cut-offs", for
welding practice. You might ask them what they have in
streamlined shorts.. because your system might have some
turns in it anyway. Carefully cut/fit and have it
welded.. and pay attention to any possible cracking.. but it
could be one more light-weight drag reduction.
Green Sky recently wrote to me about
using short stacks on the HKS..
Jerry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482799#482799
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
re: short stacks..
Yes, sad about Jerry.. he apparently knew the engines well. I found a early version
of the 700.. so I was asking questions. It's probably going to the scrap
yard, but would make a cool lawn mower engine! (kidding)
>From Jim's email reply:
"One more option that our dad was experimenting with is a straight pipe for each
cylinder with what he called Volkswagon stinger exhaust tips on the ends. Probably
got them from jbugs. com for $25 a piece. It was considerably louder than
a regular muffler but not to the point where it was unbearable. Just some
options to spend less money, If you have the skills, tools, and time to do the
work."
So apparently like any good half VW or Mosler, short stacks are just noisy. But
LIGHT.. simple.. and moves your CG forward. What does your exhaust system weigh??
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| Subject: | Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? |
I was on the other side of DaNang airport from the F4s in'72.. fooling with Beechcraft
RU-21As. A Queen Air with King Air turboprops, early Inertial Navigation
System, and some.. uh.. serious spy equipment in the back. The things people
will do to get their heads shaved?!?!
http://oldspooksandspies.org/138th/138th.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482804#482804
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
With a twin cylinder using a single muffler, the lengths affect how the pressure
pulses travel down the tube and any reflections. With 2 straight stacks, I
doubt that the lengths are critical, except to be the same.. and some length to
develop a scavenging effect or draw. (If you can't convince them with logic,
baffle them with BS??) Just speculation. Going to GS, they have tech updates
posted which include email and contact info for HKS Japan. Might be worth
asking them.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482805#482805
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
I tried to contact HKS in Japan by e-mail with questions about the exhaaust pipe
length, etc. Never got any reply whatsoever.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 8/30/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, August 30, 2018, 10:51 AM
"Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire@gmail.com>
With a twin cylinder using a single
muffler, the lengths affect how the pressure pulses travel
down the tube and any reflections. With 2 straight
stacks, I doubt that the lengths are critical, except to be
the same.. and some length to develop a scavenging effect or
draw. (If you can't convince them with logic, baffle
them with BS??) Just speculation. Going to GS,
they have tech updates posted which include email and
contact info for HKS Japan. Might be worth asking
them.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482805#482805
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Should we not be careful of what we post here? |
You sure know how to make a guy feel old. I was out in 68 and living in California
raising a family in 72. Where did the time go? Lol.
George H.
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 30, 2018, at 1:41 PM, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I was on the other side of DaNang airport from the F4s in'72.. fooling with Beechcraft
RU-21As. A Queen Air with King Air turboprops, early Inertial Navigation
System, and some.. uh.. serious spy equipment in the back. The things people
will do to get their heads shaved?!?!
>
> http://oldspooksandspies.org/138th/138th.html
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482804#482804
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Well that info may save me from asking them about engines which they paid to have
returned to the factory. I hadn't done my quota of stupid things that day,
when I bought it. Let me know if your carbs fall off and you need two new ones.
I'd just like to find out what, if any of the components are the same as
the new 700s. It might help me recover some of my small investment. Maybe I'll
remove the PRU and bolt it onto a GEO metro, or a Subie conversion? I did see
a choice engine at Oshkosh. direct drive, with Harley cylinders on a half VW
case:
http://www.vwaircraftengineconversions.com/the-javelina-twin-cylinder-95-hp-12-vw-aircraft-engine-conversion.html
more info at: (starting at 6:24 or so into the video).. first half good too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdubY_EAi1w
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482811#482811
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| Subject: | Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed |
Jerry which PSRU unit do yoou have? HKS made 2.58 and 3.47 gearboxes. Also which
carburetor mounts do you have? They had two styles... One where the carbs were
above the engine and another where they were in line behind the cylinders.
Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T
Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Well that info may save me from asking them about engines which they paid to have
returned to the factory. I hadn't done my quota of stupid things that day,
when I bought it. Let me know if your carbs fall off and you need two new ones.
I'd just like to find out what, if any of the components are the same as
the new 700s. It might help me recover some of my small investment. Maybe I'll
remove the PRU and bolt it onto a GEO metro, or a Subie conversion? I did
see a choice engine at Oshkosh. direct drive, with Harley cylinders on a half
VW case:
>http://www.vwaircraftengineconversions.com/the-javelina-twin-cylinder-95-hp-12-vw-aircraft-engine-conversion.html
>
>more info at: (starting at 6:24 or so into the video).. first half good too!
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdubY_EAi1w
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482811#482811
>
>
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| Subject: | Firestar Re-Configure Project |
Kolbers, I made a decision today to go ahead with most of the collective advice
and consensus of the Kolb List, and I began disassembling the oil system in order
to re-configure it similar to Larry C's HKS Firestar.
After speaking with John H, Larry C, and e-mail corrrespondence with several others,
plus all the public discussion, I must admit that the changes I made (oil
cooler venting above the wing, perhaps the exhaust pipes blocking the propeller
in-flow) are very likely the cause of my aircraft's poor performance.
So I am going to re-mount the oil cooler down lower on the cage away from the wing,
and I'm going to move the oil tank lower underneath the wing, and these two
things will allow me to make a full airfoil-shaped center gap seal/cover like
Larry's (and most of the Rotax Kolbs).
I am also going to go back and try to install the original HKS exhaust system and
muffler, to have the exhaust pipes out of the airflow path to the propeller.
This will require me to make a new engine mount plate, moving the engine forward
several inches. That of course will help the CG move a little forward, even
though the aircraft is safely flyable at its current CG.
I have no doubt the Kolb List will thoroughly enjoy watching me eat this much crow...
:) :) :)
I'll will probably be down for a month or two in order to get all this done correctly.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 8/30/18, Jerry-TS-MkII <12flybellaire@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: First short XC Flight and Slow Cruise Speed
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, August 30, 2018, 12:38 PM
"Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire@gmail.com>
Well that info may save me from asking
them about engines which they paid to have returned to the
factory. I hadn't done my quota of stupid things that
day, when I bought it. Let me know if your carbs fall
off and you need two new ones. I'd just like to find
out what, if any of the components are the same as the new
700s. It might help me recover some of my small
investment. Maybe I'll remove the PRU and bolt it onto a GEO
metro, or a Subie conversion? I did see a choice
engine at Oshkosh. direct drive, with Harley cylinders on a
half VW case:
http://www.vwaircraftengineconversions.com/the-javelina-twin-cylinder-95-hp-12-vw-aircraft-engine-conversion.html
more info at: (starting at 6:24 or so
into the video).. first half good too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdubY_EAi1w
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482811#482811
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