Kolb-List Digest Archive

Sun 09/02/18


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:15 AM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (Bill Berle)
     2. 02:24 AM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (racerjerry)
     3. 06:03 AM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (Charlie England)
     4. 09:00 AM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (Denny Baber)
     5. 09:49 AM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (Rex Rodebush)
     6. 10:11 AM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project ()
     7. 11:47 AM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project ()
     8. 12:09 PM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (Rex Rodebush)
     9. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project ()
    10. 01:00 PM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (flycolt45)
    11. 02:07 PM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (Jerry-TS-MkII)
    12. 05:19 PM - Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (Richard Pike)
    13. 10:46 PM - Re: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project (Bill Berle)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:15:06 AM PST US
    From: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    On Sat, 9/1/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote: Bill If your wing is hanging like everyone else you wouldn't need to raise the horizontal stabilizer so far above the boom tube. ----------------------------------- How exactly can I tell if the fuselage and wing are or are not like everyone else's Kolb? The only information I have on that subject is one single measurement, gotten directly from Kolb (also on the plans), and my aircraft is within 1/32" of that measurement they gave me. If my aircraft closely meets their measurement, and if my wing is still not correctly aligned to the fuselage, then by definition it MUST mean that EITHER my fuselage is damaged, OR that Kolb welded mine together incorrectly. Either of these things are of course possible, but let's assume Kolb welded my fuselage correctly, and that the problem on my aircraft must be damage to the steel tube cage that I have not yet discovered. How do I verify that? How and where do I measure the correct angle of wing alignment/incidence, OTHER than the one simple measurement I got from Kolb (which is also shown on the plans)? Bill Berle


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:24:46 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    From: "racerjerry" <gnking2@verizon.net>
    Maybe we should be comparing the difference between wing incidence angle to boom tube angle. By comparing Bill's plane with other Firestar II's, that should answer the question about the possibility of too high an angle of attack possibly causing nose-low flight and slowing the airplane. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482856#482856


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:03:01 AM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    Bill, A few more thoughts. I agree about the 'one thing at a time' advice. Though the oil cooler and center section would obviously need to happen at the same time. Earlier, I missed the oil cooler configuration/center section issue. That, combined with the oil spatter pattern on top of the wing, sounds like a major clue. If you've got spanwise (or even reversed) flow over a significant area, you could be killing lift over a *lot* of the wing. The remaining area must work harder (higher angle of attack) which increases drag. As a FWIW, I've got an old Twinstar with a fan-cooled 503. The builder removed the fan and built an exit duct on the engine that ends just forward of the prop. Cooling courtesy of Bernoulli. Possible alternative for your oil cooler. Another thought is about engine power. The fuel flow you quoted sounds like you were probably making around 40 hp; possibly a lot less at cruise. Those very long pipes and muffler of unknown restriction may be removing a lot of power. Most engine mfgrs quote power figures in optimized conditions, and engines rarely make as much power in real world installations. Your exhaust may be robbing a lot of power, fighting exhaust flow instead of enhancing it like a set of tuned length pipes. But I'd be fixing the wing gap first. Hopefully, you have enough hose length to just rotate the cooler 90 degrees & allow closing the top of the wing. Charlie


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:00:39 AM PST US
    From: Denny Baber <baberdk@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    I have thought about the CoG problem. It is a range that the plane will operate throughout. But when the plane is in the air, the center of lift of a wing is 25%. I think that is the point that the plane rotates about when flying, not the CoG. When you raise or lower the tail you are changing the angle of attack of the wing by rotating the plane around the angle of lift. It becomes apparent that raising the tail reduces the angle of attack which also reduces the amount of lift. In my opinion, when the CoGravity is away from the CoLift you trim for the difference. The CoG will change, that is why it is a range, but the CoLift of your wing is always 25%. The easiest way to change CoG is to move the battery but moving the engine seems like it would have a larger effect although I haven't tried it. Has anyone else? An engine weighs more than a battery but the battery can have a larger moment and I'm too lazy to figure it out. On a taildragger, we normally let the plane slow down until it quits flying. But when I see the contests to shorten the landing distance, it appears they are increasing the angle of attack above 19 degrees to the relative wind at which point the wing will stall at any speed. It should drop the plane out of the sky and then you overcome the forward inertia. The slower you can fly with the boundary layer attached to the top of the wing, the less forward inertia you have to overcome on ground contact. It's more of a bombing run than a landing in the contests, but a lot of people can't fly a taildragger because you can't flair and they are not very patient. In the contests they FLAIR. A helicopter doesn't lose lift because the wing is rotating and producing lift all the way to the ground with no forward motion of the fuselage. The fuselage is just drag but raising or lowering the tail will change the area exposed to the stationary air along with the AoA. If we put a Kolb in a wind tunnel we could play with the elevator angle to personalize it, but I'll bet Homer wanted that wing at a certain angle of attack so he wouldn't get sued. But with an Experimental, let's have fun. [image: image.png] Respectfully, Dennis Baber Cape Coral, Fl baberdk@gmail.com Stay Curious


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:49:28 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    From: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush@gmail.com>
    Bill, Get a digital level. Measure the wing angle under the wing fore and aft. Take readings on each rib or alternate rib and average them. Do the same for the motor mounts fore and aft and the tube and horizontal stabilizer. Compare these angles to what Kolb recommends or the angles on a good firestar that hopefully someone on the list will give you. I don't know of any other way to find out what you are dealing with. Just guessing or "I think it looks right" doesn't do it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482863#482863


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:11:25 AM PST US
    From: <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    Did you all know that no numbers are required, in most cases, if a Kolb is built to plans. We checked CG on the Ultrastar by hanging the aircraft from the main spar carry through. If it was close to level it was good to go. No paperwork required. No battery to move forward or back. My original FS had no weight and balance. My MKIII did, but the cg was so far back on paper that it was illegal to fly. My MKIII flies pretty good. In a glide it is trimmed perfectly. Under power it takes a lot of nose up trim. That pusher prop is at the end of a long lever that naturally pushes the nose down. That's why we have nose up pitch trim. I've flown some pretty screwed up Kolbs and they flew much better than "The Mystery Ship", Bill B's FSII. Build and configure the Kolb the way the plans call for, hang some extra long main gear legs and big ass tires and the the Kolb will fly great. The Mystery Ship has some things not built or rigged to specs. Get it back to specs and specified rigging and it will fly. Do you think you are getting full power out of your HKS? It is a second hand engine with time on it. How do you know it is running like it should? This thread has got to be a record for the Kolb List. I can't fix it if I can't see it. A helicopter produces lift most of the time until you stall the blades, just like stalling a fixed wing. They like clean, cool, dry air. They will settle with power when too much pitch is pulled in and they begin stalling. You get out of that stall by lowering the collective and pushing the nose over, hoping you have enough altitude to recover. Why are we discussing helicopters? Short landing contestants, the pros at least, don't flare because they are at the very edge of the stall all the way to the ground. They are flared when the are making the approach to land. Stay close to Larry Cottrell and his FSII. It flies great with an HKS and big tires. Just what Bill B is looking for as an off field aircraft. john h Somewhere on a mountain near Morgan, Utah. ---- Denny Baber <baberdk@gmail.com> wrote: > I have thought about the CoG problem. It is a range that the plane will > operate throughout. But when the plane is in the air, the center of lift of > a wing is 25%. I think that is the point that the plane rotates about when > flying, not the CoG. When you raise or lower the tail you are changing the > angle of attack of the wing by rotating the plane around the angle of lift. > It becomes apparent that raising the tail reduces the angle of attack which > also reduces the amount of lift. In my opinion, when the CoGravity is away > from the CoLift you trim for the difference. The CoG will change, that is > why it is a range, but the CoLift of your wing is always 25%. The easiest > way to change CoG is to move the battery but moving the engine seems like > it would have a larger effect although I haven't tried it. Has anyone else? > An engine weighs more than a battery but the battery can have a larger > moment and I'm too lazy to figure it out. > > On a taildragger, we normally let the plane slow down until it quits > flying. But when I see the contests to shorten the landing distance, it > appears they are increasing the angle of attack above 19 degrees to the > relative wind at which point the wing will stall at any speed. It should > drop the plane out of the sky and then you overcome the forward inertia. > The slower you can fly with the boundary layer attached to the top of the > wing, the less forward inertia you have to overcome on ground contact. It's > more of a bombing run than a landing in the contests, but a lot of people > can't fly a taildragger because you can't flair and they are not very > patient. In the contests they FLAIR. > > A helicopter doesn't lose lift because the wing is rotating and producing > lift all the way to the ground with no forward motion of the fuselage. The > fuselage is just drag but raising or lowering the tail will change the area > exposed to the stationary air along with the AoA. If we put a Kolb in a > wind tunnel we could play with the elevator angle to personalize it, but > I'll bet Homer wanted that wing at a certain angle of attack so he wouldn't > get sued. But with an Experimental, let's have fun. > > > > [image: image.png] > > > Respectfully, > Dennis Baber > Cape Coral, Fl > baberdk@gmail.com > > > Stay Curious


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:47:56 AM PST US
    From: <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    Kolbers: Forgot to qualify my comments in my previous message below. What I write on the Kolb List is in no way meant to encourage anyone to do as I do. My methods of building, repairing, rigging, and flying Kolb aircraft are mostly unconventional by other's standards. I have lived and still live an unconventional life style. I spent time in the US Army Special Forces as an EM and an officer, in peace and war. I have always been somewhat of a maverick. I guess that life style never wears off. If you want to use any of the info I share, feel free to do it. I don't encourage anyone to do so. What works for me may not work for you. What I share does work for me and has been learned through many years and hours of building, flying, making mistakes, tearing up Kolbs, experimenting, and working until I get something that works well for me. So please don't go do something because I said I do it. I'm celebrating 50 years as a rotary wing and fixed wing flight time. I've been able to survive so far. Don't intend to change that. john h mkIII Between East Canyon and Morgan, Utah. ---- jhauck@elmore.rr.com wrote: > > Did you all know that no numbers are required, in most cases, if a Kolb is built to plans. > > We checked CG on the Ultrastar by hanging the aircraft from the main spar carry through. If it was close to level it was good to go. No paperwork required. No battery to move forward or back. > > My original FS had no weight and balance. > > My MKIII did, but the cg was so far back on paper that it was illegal to fly. My MKIII flies pretty good. In a glide it is trimmed perfectly. Under power it takes a lot of nose up trim. That pusher prop is at the end of a long lever that naturally pushes the nose down. That's why we have nose up pitch trim. I've flown some pretty screwed up Kolbs and they flew much better than "The Mystery Ship", Bill B's FSII. > > Build and configure the Kolb the way the plans call for, hang some extra long main gear legs and big ass tires and the the Kolb will fly great. The Mystery Ship has some things not built or rigged to specs. Get it back to specs and specified rigging and it will fly. > > Do you think you are getting full power out of your HKS? It is a second hand engine with time on it. How do you know it is running like it should? > > This thread has got to be a record for the Kolb List. > > I can't fix it if I can't see it. > > A helicopter produces lift most of the time until you stall the blades, just like stalling a fixed wing. They like clean, cool, dry air. They will settle with power when too much pitch is pulled in and they begin stalling. You get out of that stall by lowering the collective and pushing the nose over, hoping you have enough altitude to recover. Why are we discussing helicopters? > > Short landing contestants, the pros at least, don't flare because they are at the very edge of the stall all the way to the ground. They are flared when the are making the approach to land. > > Stay close to Larry Cottrell and his FSII. It flies great with an HKS and big tires. Just what Bill B is looking for as an off field aircraft. > > john h > Somewhere on a mountain near Morgan, Utah. > > > > > > ---- Denny Baber <baberdk@gmail.com> wrote: > > I have thought about the CoG problem. It is a range that the plane will > > operate throughout. But when the plane is in the air, the center of lift of > > a wing is 25%. I think that is the point that the plane rotates about when > > flying, not the CoG. When you raise or lower the tail you are changing the > > angle of attack of the wing by rotating the plane around the angle of lift. > > It becomes apparent that raising the tail reduces the angle of attack which > > also reduces the amount of lift. In my opinion, when the CoGravity is away > > from the CoLift you trim for the difference. The CoG will change, that is > > why it is a range, but the CoLift of your wing is always 25%. The easiest > > way to change CoG is to move the battery but moving the engine seems like > > it would have a larger effect although I haven't tried it. Has anyone else? > > An engine weighs more than a battery but the battery can have a larger > > moment and I'm too lazy to figure it out. > > > > On a taildragger, we normally let the plane slow down until it quits > > flying. But when I see the contests to shorten the landing distance, it > > appears they are increasing the angle of attack above 19 degrees to the > > relative wind at which point the wing will stall at any speed. It should > > drop the plane out of the sky and then you overcome the forward inertia. > > The slower you can fly with the boundary layer attached to the top of the > > wing, the less forward inertia you have to overcome on ground contact. It's > > more of a bombing run than a landing in the contests, but a lot of people > > can't fly a taildragger because you can't flair and they are not very > > patient. In the contests they FLAIR. > > > > A helicopter doesn't lose lift because the wing is rotating and producing > > lift all the way to the ground with no forward motion of the fuselage. The > > fuselage is just drag but raising or lowering the tail will change the area > > exposed to the stationary air along with the AoA. If we put a Kolb in a > > wind tunnel we could play with the elevator angle to personalize it, but > > I'll bet Homer wanted that wing at a certain angle of attack so he wouldn't > > get sued. But with an Experimental, let's have fun. > > > > > > > > [image: image.png] > > > > > > Respectfully, > > Dennis Baber > > Cape Coral, Fl > > baberdk@gmail.com > > > > > > Stay Curious > > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 12:09:36 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    From: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush@gmail.com>
    John, You said "Did you all know that no numbers are required, in most cases, if a Kolb is built to plans". Mine didn't work out that way. I initally set the wings per measurement per the plans. At final assembly I called Brian for the angles as there had been a lot of discussion on the list at that time regarding wing angles. I had to redrill the front wing attachment and use the "reverse" back u-joint with washers to get the correct angles. (see pictures) The plane has flown great so I'm sure the angles are good. Maybe I screwed up the measurements the first time? Don't know. My point is that if you measure the angles you know exactly what you have. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482867#482867 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20161025_115911696_172.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_20161025_120032721_274.jpg


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:34:52 PM PST US
    From: <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    If the plans and instructions are correct from Kolb Aircraft and the aircraft is built according to plans, it will fly. I didn't make myself too clear, as usual. Of course check the angle of wing incidence when rigging the aircraft. I was speaking primarily to weight and balance numbers. If there are errors in the instructions and plans, it ain't gonna fly right. Again, these are my thoughts and ideas, and what little I know about these neat little airplanes. John Williamson RIP went way beyond CG limits, fore and aft, during his flight testing of his Kolbra. He proved to himself the factory numbers for weight and balance were conservative. I never saw those numbers. I imagine they have been lost forever. john h mkIII Morgan, UT ---- Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush@gmail.com> wrote: > > John, > > You said "Did you all know that no numbers are required, in most cases, if a Kolb is built to plans". > > > > My point is that if you measure the angles you know exactly what you have. > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:00:48 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    From: flycolt45 <flycolt45@aol.com>
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    Message 11


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    Time: 02:07:32 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    From: "Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire@gmail.com>
    Thanks Charlie!! Good to see that two of us are on the same page. The conversation is becoming more humorous, to me anyway. Putting this into perspective? Well if the front tire on your car or truck BLOWS OUT.. you won't be worried about the balance weights. Bills wing (pretty sure) was flying with a flat. Reminds me of my wife, "Hey, honey, the Celica isn't handling very well! (flumpa, flumpa, flumpa). Duh! Talking angles and CG? What ALL of you have.. is a AIRPLANE. It may have been built by Kolb parts, or Kolb drawings.. but I'll bet EVERYONE has been modified, AND that everyone flies a little bit different. I think the rest of you should cut a hole in your wing, induce the same upper wing turbulence that Bill experienced as verified by oil splatters (and terrible performance), and THEN talk about the CG or the angle of attack. Horse power or thrust? The Drifters flew with 27 HP, then 50, and they probably ended up with 100. Bills plane did climb.. just poorly. People have died when the sail cloth came off.. even though the engine was running just fine. If you other guys cut a third of your wing off, tell me how it will fly, esp if it's on the heavy side. Or.. will it fly at all? Bill is changing the flat tire. I'm sure he will balance it, when it's rolling again. He is not flying a KOLB! It's a modified design of what should be a good airplane. How many different ones did Homer build, while experimenting? And how many DIDN'T make it to production? Bill has one that sorta looks like a Kolb. And until the whole wing is lifting, and clean.. the rest is just speculation. Jerry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482875#482875


    Message 12


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    Time: 05:19:59 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    From: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
    flycolt45(at)aol.com wrote: > > > Thought of Glenn Rinck on West Fl, also a military guy, Marine), who built a bunch of Kolbs and others who'd love to hear what all went on as a Viet Nam chopper pilot and your Kolb life. > > Glenn Rinck sold me my Easy Riser. He is apparently doing well. https://www.facebook.com/glenn.rinck?fb_dtsg_ag=Adzs3o6QcSse4S1rg4FbAht03CsXJ9Vv6aOQS3Y7QutuEA%3AAdyiBeRARqK5sS2x2l4k6KNuYQwNcL719IGKTSz5lUQ_-g -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Engine is in place, now for the wiring. Ugh.) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482880#482880 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/riser1_566.jpg


    Message 13


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    Time: 10:46:27 PM PST US
    From: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project
    Hi guys, thanks again for apparently setting a world record Kolb List discussion thread with me... what, no trophy? Today I just found out that my old glider flying buddy Lt. Col. Jim Payne (USAF ret.) has re-set the world glider altitude record, 76,000 feet in a pressurized unpowered glider flying over the "polar vortex" way down in Aegentina. It is called the Perlan Project, sponsored by Airbus if you want to check it out. The other day he "only" went up to 65,000 feet and broke the previous world record. That may even be a little higher than John H has flown a Kolb :) As far as my Firestar "Mystery Ship" ("The Drag Queen"), as of yesterday I removed the oil cooler and oil tank, and after an hour of head-scratching I figured out the better places on the cage to mount them. The oil tank will be very similar to what Larry C had done. The cooler will be parallel to the rear fuselage instead of sticking out to the sides. There may be anough air going through it that way, or I may have to make a little scoop, but the scoop would not have anything to do with the air flowing around the wings. These changes will allow me to install a "solid" center section fairing across the upper wing center like Larry did. His LOWER center section does not have a gap seal, it is sealed at the top. I may do that, or I may keep my existing lower gap seal for a "double" seal. The best rule is of course to change one thing at a time, as mentioned. So I am changing the center section FIRST, because that is what almost everyone has focused in on as a likely cause of my drg issue. So I will move the oil cooler and oil tank, make the top gap seal perfectly sealed as far back as I can get it, and I will test fly it in THAT configuration, without changing anything else. BUT... this huge discussion with all of you (and others) has brought up several other strange possibilities: 1) The wings could be at the wrong angle on the fuselage, regardless of whether it matches the plans. I have not heard back from Kolb about the RANGE of different angles of wing incidence that are acceptable. But it is absolutely possible that LOWERING the wing angle, by drilling the hole up HIGHER on the fitting (like the photos of the Mark 3 that were posted today) would reduce the drag significantly. But that would make it "not a stock Firestar any more". If nothhing else works I may try that. 2) It may be my strange custom exhaust that is blocking the airflow into the propeller, and robbing engine pwoer, and creating back-pressure, etc. If the center section retrofit does not solve the entire problem, then I will have to try going back to the HKS exhaust like Larry C. 3) The carburetors being mounted up above the engine cylinders (for a tractor type installation) is DEFINITELY creating more frontal area (some amount of drag) AND they are blocking some air into the propeller, AND these mounts put the carburetor in the low-pressure "suction" field directly in front of the prop. So this could conceivably be reducing the intake maniforld pressure, robbing me of some amount of engine pwoer. 4) .The propeller may be dragging the aircraft like a brake, because it is at too fine of a pitch. This seems less likely because I am indeed getting max continuous RPM with the throttle open. But I have no do ubt the propeller may not be set up at the optimum pitch. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 9/2/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Re-Configure Project To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Sunday, September 2, 2018, 5:19 PM Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net> flycolt45(at)aol.com wrote: > > > Thought of Glenn Rinck on West Fl, also a military guy, Marine), who built a bunch of Kolbs and others who'd love to hear what all went on as a Viet Nam chopper pilot and your Kolb life. > > Glenn Rinck sold me my Easy Riser. He is apparently doing well. https://www.facebook.com/glenn.rinck?fb_dtsg_ag=Adzs3o6QcSse4S1rg4FbAht03CsXJ9Vv6aOQS3Y7QutuEA%3AAdyiBeRARqK5sS2x2l4k6KNuYQwNcL719IGKTSz5lUQ_-g -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Engine is in place, now for the wiring. Ugh.) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482880#482880 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/riser1_566.jpg The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin.




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