---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/11/18: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:06 AM - Re: Defend Your Turf (George Helton) 2. 06:27 AM - Re: Defend Your Turf (Kolburner) 3. 06:31 AM - Re: Re: Defend Your Turf (Gary Aman) 4. 07:03 AM - Re: Defend Your Turf (Kolburner) 5. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: Defend Your Turf (George Helton) 6. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Defend Your Turf (George Helton) 7. 10:53 AM - landing (Larry Cottrell) 8. 11:45 AM - Re: landing (west1m) 9. 12:11 PM - Re: landing (George Helton) 10. 12:27 PM - Re: landing (George Alexander) 11. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: landing (George Helton) 12. 12:33 PM - Re: Re: Defend Your Turf (George Helton) 13. 12:50 PM - Re: landing (George Helton) 14. 01:42 PM - Re: landing (Larry Cottrell) 15. 02:00 PM - Re: Defend Your Turf (Richard Pike) 16. 02:01 PM - Re: Defend Your Turf (Kolburner) 17. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: Defend Your Turf (George Helton) 18. 05:56 PM - Re: Defend Your Turf (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:28 AM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Defend Your Turf There are many videos on YouTube of super short field landings. I have landed at the airport in Big Bear, California, the elevation there is 6800 msl. Landing was a no brainer. The takeoff was the longest takeoff roll Ive ever made in a Kolb. But, that was in a single carb, MKII with a passenger on board. I personally think it wouldnt be a big deal landing or taking off with a Kolb Firestar II or Firefly at your strip. Density altitude would have to be considered on warmer or humid days. Just my opinion. George George H. Firestar,FS100,2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 10, 2018, at 10:55 PM, Kolburner wrote: > > > Hi Kolb folks, > I may buy a Kolb. I like a whole lot of things about them. Too many to list here right now. But....I operate out of a 1,000 foot long dirt strip at an elevation of 3,800 feet, no obstacles. Now, even 1,000 feet shouldn't be too short for an airplane that only weighs 400 pounds and stalls at 27 mph. And yet, pretty much everyone, and I mean everyone I see in videos, lands these airplanes with at least an '80% above stall speed' cushion, watching hundreds of feet of runway disappear behind them. I've read about the 'Kolb quit', which seems to me to be a "whoops, I stalled" kinda thing, and of course we don't want that too high above the ground. But still, even the "Kolb short field landing" (and t/o for that matter) demonstrations are not even remotely respectable. Can't a Kolb with a competent pilot be put down in a real short distance? Sure they can. But I'm not seeing it. Please straighten me out here. Thx > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483087#483087 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:10 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Defend Your Turf From: "Kolburner" Thank you George for replying. Helpful information. I've been into Big Bear with some much higher hp certified acft that didn't do any better than your Kolb. DA, of course, does play a role. Most of our low hp flying around here is done by 800a. I've gotten a couple of other PMs from my post that have been helpful, too. I knew these super-light aircraft could perform in short field operations, I just haven't seen good examples. Does anyone have any links they could share? Thx! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483095#483095 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Defend Your Turf From: Gary Aman What part of the country is home for you? > On Sep 11, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Kolburner wrote: > > > Thank you George for replying. Helpful information. I've been into Big Bear with some much higher hp certified acft that didn't do any better than your Kolb. DA, of course, does play a role. Most of our low hp flying around here is done by 800a. > I've gotten a couple of other PMs from my post that have been helpful, too. I knew these super-light aircraft could perform in short field operations, I just haven't seen good examples. > Does anyone have any links they could share? > Thx! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483095#483095 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:08 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Defend Your Turf From: "Kolburner" New Mexico. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483100#483100 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:00 AM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Defend Your Turf Keep thy airspeed up lest ye mite the ground. Quote from Homer Kolbs Firestar Builders manual, 1985. These little birds slow down quickly. George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14 GDH Mesick, Michigan Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:02 AM, Kolburner wrote: > > > New Mexico. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483100#483100 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:25 AM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Defend Your Turf Personally I would do one or two things. With the aircraft completely assembled and fueled ready to fly and me in seat. Id take 3 sets of scales and calculate a complete weight and balance. Have friend read the scales for you . Rotate the the scales and average for accuracy. Choose any datum point you like. Use a 30 tape measure and plum-Bob. Nose, Seat, leading edge, whatever. Be sure to elevate the tail to flight altitude. Dont quote me but I believe it is around 9 degrees measured on the bottom of a inboard wing rib. I believeyour c/g should far between 21 and 34 percent of the cord of the wing as measured from the leading edge. Again these figures are from memory and Im old. The second thing Id probably do. Which is just me, so dont jump all over me guys. Just go fly the thing and see how it feels for a few hours. If its got 65 hours on it? It obvious can fly. George H. Firestar Mesick, Michigan Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 11, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Kolburner wrote: > > > Thank you George for replying. Helpful information. I've been into Big Bear with some much higher hp certified acft that didn't do any better than your Kolb. DA, of course, does play a role. Most of our low hp flying around here is done by 800a. > I've gotten a couple of other PMs from my post that have been helpful, too. I knew these super-light aircraft could perform in short field operations, I just haven't seen good examples. > Does anyone have any links they could share? > Thx! > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483095#483095 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:52 AM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Kolb-List: landing https://vimeo.com/289329542 Here is a quick and dirty landing which is not at all the best that one can do, but it will give you some idea. Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:07 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: landing From: "west1m" Nothing wrong with that landing, looks well within his 1000' needs -------- West1m Hastings, MN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483114#483114 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:27 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: landing Larry, I can=99t remember your password. Can=99t see your landin g without it. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 11, 2018, at 1:53 PM, Larry Cottrell wrot e: > > https://vimeo.com/289329542 > > Here is a quick and dirty landing which is not at all the best that one ca n do, but it will give you some idea. > Larry > > -- > The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of oth ers. > > If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email addre ss before sending. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:13 PM PST US From: George Alexander Subject: Re: Kolb-List: landing Larry et al:Couldn't have a better testimonial for the Kolb (and the pilot)! On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 1:54 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: https://vimeo.com/289329542 Here is a quick and dirty landing which is not at all the best that one can do, but it will give you some idea.Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:51 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: landing That looked like good short field to me. And hes right, its all about speed control. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 11, 2018, at 2:44 PM, west1m wrote: > > > Nothing wrong with that landing, looks well within his 1000' needs > > -------- > West1m > Hastings, MN > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483114#483114 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:28 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Defend Your Turf https://youtu.be/cNwCFaDGAWQ https://youtu.be/bkBPrLUMYlM These two might impress you? It all about airspeed and of course practice. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:02 AM, Kolburner wrote: > > > New Mexico. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483100#483100 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:32 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: landing Here=99s one that I shot last week. Simply because I don=99t lik e bouncing down the whole runway. It=99s well under that 1000=99 https://youtu.be/IA7C6KGFTvo Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 11, 2018, at 3:26 PM, George Alexander wrote: > > Larry et al: > Couldn't have a better testimonial for the Kolb (and the pilot)! > > > On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 1:54 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > > https://vimeo.com/289329542 > > Here is a quick and dirty landing which is not at all the best that one ca n do, but it will give you some idea. > Larry > > -- > The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of oth ers. > > If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email addre ss before sending. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:32 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: landing This one doesn't require a password. Larry On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 1:13 PM George Helton wrote: > Larry, I can=99t remember your password. Can=99t see your lan ding without it. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 11, 2018, at 1:53 PM, Larry Cottrell > wrote: > > https://vimeo.com/289329542 > > Here is a quick and dirty landing which is not at all the best that one > can do, but it will give you some idea. > Larry > > -- > *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of > others.* > > *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email > address before sending.* > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:15 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Defend Your Turf From: "Richard Pike" I havve been flying out of this grass strip since 1983. Google Earth says it is 850' long. Elevation is 1500' msl. The first video is a 1985 Firestar modified into a Firefly; weight 260 pounds, engine is a 26hp Rotax 277. Takeoff used about 350' because I always ease the power in, as it is easy to get it over on it's nose. (Guess how I know this?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?vcfoOJJDpg Landing the Firefly/Firestar in calm wind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUHziWQw3Qo Takeoff with a passenger in the MKIII; calm wind, used about 350' of runway. Fast forward to 23 minutes to see the landing. Engine is a 65hp 582. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Rr8BF7EPY Here is the MKIII solo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9eLElrMaTQ&t=9s As you can see, I typically use about half the available runway length because my priority is being gentle to the landing gear. Takeoff is always on the slight downhill, landing is always on the slight uphill. You will notice that TVA has put a set of 300' tall towers/powerlines 500' off the SW end of the runway. Carrying a passenger in the summer, takeoff means turning to parallel them. In the winter I usually just climb and clear them unless it is a BIG passenger. Landing; the powerlines are not a problem summer or winter. Hope this gives you an idea of what is typical runway distance used by a Kolb. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Repairing the fiberglass nose bowl. Ugh.) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483123#483123 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Defend Your Turf From: "Kolburner" Yes. That's what I'm talking about. Great vids. Good looking airplane making good looking landings that definitely fit my needs. Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483124#483124 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:03 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Defend Your Turf Nice video Richard! Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 11, 2018, at 5:00 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > > I havve been flying out of this grass strip since 1983. Google Earth says it is 850' long. Elevation is 1500' msl. The first video is a 1985 Firestar modified into a Firefly; weight 260 pounds, engine is a 26hp Rotax 277. Takeoff used about 350' because I always ease the power in, as it is easy to get it over on it's nose. (Guess how I know this?) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?vcfoOJJDpg > > Landing the Firefly/Firestar in calm wind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUHziWQw3Qo > > Takeoff with a passenger in the MKIII; calm wind, used about 350' of runway. Fast forward to 23 minutes to see the landing. Engine is a 65hp 582. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Rr8BF7EPY > > Here is the MKIII solo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9eLElrMaTQ&t=9s > > As you can see, I typically use about half the available runway length because my priority is being gentle to the landing gear. Takeoff is always on the slight downhill, landing is always on the slight uphill. You will notice that TVA has put a set of 300' tall towers/powerlines 500' off the SW end of the runway. Carrying a passenger in the summer, takeoff means turning to parallel them. In the winter I usually just climb and clear them unless it is a BIG passenger. Landing; the powerlines are not a problem summer or winter. > > Hope this gives you an idea of what is typical runway distance used by a Kolb. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Repairing the fiberglass nose bowl. Ugh.) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483123#483123 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:36 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Defend Your Turf I started out with 600 feet of cow pasture, rough as a cob, with poor approach and departure, Ultrastar and Firestar without brakes. Never had a problem with air strip length. Eventually, got 750 feet. Fly a very heavy MKIII. Use a couple hundred feet to land and take off. It will land and take off much shorter. 30 mph, pop the flaps, and it is flying. Can land in several plane lengths, depending on the wind. No such thing as "Kolb quit." It is a stall above the ground. Most everything I have flown stalls when it gets below stall speed. To many new and old Kolb pilots, this comes as quite a surprise. "But still, even the "Kolb short field landing" (and t/o for that matter) demonstrations are not even remotely respectable." Please expand on the above. Who were you watching make these landings? Heck, it's hard to make a long take off and landing in a Kolb. Here is an old video from the 2011 Nauga Fly In, Star Hill, Louisiana. No one was trying to break any short field records. Most of the landings and take offs look pretty decent to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmf0Me3MpH8 john h mkIII Rock House, Oregon -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kolburner Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 9:56 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Defend Your Turf Hi Kolb folks, I may buy a Kolb. I like a whole lot of things about them. Too many to list here right now. But....I operate out of a 1,000 foot long dirt strip at an elevation of 3,800 feet, no obstacles. Now, even 1,000 feet shouldn't be too short for an airplane that only weighs 400 pounds and stalls at 27 mph. And yet, pretty much everyone, and I mean everyone I see in videos, lands these airplanes with at least an '80% above stall speed' cushion, watching hundreds of feet of runway disappear behind them. I've read about the 'Kolb quit', which seems to me to be a "whoops, I stalled" kinda thing, and of course we don't want that too high above the ground. But still, even the "Kolb short field landing" (and t/o for that matter) demonstrations are not even remotely respectable. Can't a Kolb with a competent pilot be put down in a real short distance? Sure they can. But I'm not seeing it. Please straighten me out here. Thx Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483087#483087 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.