Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 04:37 AM - Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution Today! (Matt Dralle)
1. 12:07 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Bill Berle)
2. 05:46 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (John Hauck)
3. 06:40 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Rick Neilsen)
4. 07:05 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Larry Cottrell)
5. 08:15 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Bill Berle)
6. 08:34 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Bill Berle)
7. 08:39 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Bill Berle)
8. 09:48 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (John Fitt)
9. 11:06 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Rick Neilsen)
10. 12:22 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (George Helton)
11. 02:12 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (John Fitt)
12. 02:29 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Richard Swiderski)
13. 06:06 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (George Helton)
14. 07:13 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Bill Berle)
15. 07:26 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Jeff Craddock)
16. 07:47 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Rex Rodebush)
17. 07:56 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (John Hauck)
18. 08:10 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Richard Girard)
19. 08:14 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (John Fitt)
20. 08:14 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Charlie England)
21. 09:39 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Bill Berle)
22. 09:51 PM - HKS / Firestar - TRIM TABS (Bill Berle)
23. 09:52 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Pfatchantz)
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| Subject: | Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution |
Today!
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way
of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Please take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
(LOC)! As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems
at least as valuable a building / entertainment tool as your typical magazine
subscription!
Assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others that you appreciate the
Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your
Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
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I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about
how the Lists have helped you!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings,
gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does
not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point
the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and
my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb
inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front
of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be
difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
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target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Bill B,
Did you ever do an actual in flight prop pitch check, WOT, straight and level,
just bump the red line?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings,
gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does
not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point
the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and
my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb
inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front
of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be
difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
==========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Bill
How about adjusting the wing angle of attack to get your plane flying
level? "When you have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer no
matter how improbable must be the answer".
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the
> strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>
> I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing
> does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>
> 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours,
> to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
> curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of
> suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the
> "suction" area in front of the prop.
>
> 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This
> will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
>
> 3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>
> I can't add much
> of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
> Anxiously waiting to
> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
> On Sun,
> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
> modifications since last test flight were:
>
>
> 1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
> inches under the wing.
>
> 2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>
> 3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
> and bad airflow into the prop)
>
> 4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
> of the CG rrange.
>
>
> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
> measurement.
>
>
> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>
>
> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
> 2.
>
>
> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
>
>
> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
>
>
> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
> performance?
>
>
> The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
> made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>
>
> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>
>
> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
> gear legs than Larry does.
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
> ==========
>
> br>
> fts!)
>
> r>
> >
> e.com" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> ==========
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==========
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> WIKI -
>
> errer"
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ==========
>
>
> --
> The
> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
> intolerant of others.
> If you forward this email, or any part of
> it, please remove my email address before sending.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to
clean it up.
Larry
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the
> strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>
> I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing
> does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>
> 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours,
> to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
> curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of
> suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the
> "suction" area in front of the prop.
>
> 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This
> will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
>
> 3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>
> I can't add much
> of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
> Anxiously waiting to
> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
> On Sun,
> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
> modifications since last test flight were:
>
>
> 1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
> inches under the wing.
>
> 2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>
> 3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
> and bad airflow into the prop)
>
> 4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
> of the CG rrange.
>
>
> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
> measurement.
>
>
> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>
>
> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
> 2.
>
>
> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
>
>
> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
>
>
> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
> performance?
>
>
> The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
> made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>
>
> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>
>
> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
> gear legs than Larry does.
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
> ==========
>
> br>
> fts!)
>
> r>
> >
> e.com" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> ==========
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==========
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> WIKI -
>
> errer"
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ==========
>
>
> --
> The
> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
> intolerant of others.
> If you forward this email, or any part of
> it, please remove my email address before sending.
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 5
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
One time I left the traffic pattern and let it "settle down" into a long distance
cruise. I spent a little time at WOT and it was able to go redline (6200).
It might have been able to go a little over but I pulled it back before it got
any farther. However I do not have a lot of faith in this test since it was only
briefly done and a lot of other stuff was going on, trim issues in the pitch
axis and yaw axis, etc.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 5:43 AM
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Bill B,
Did you ever do an actual in flight
prop pitch check, WOT, straight and level, just bump the red
line?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 2:07
AM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
STATIC THRUST test
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got
from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg
fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if
the "solid" center section fairing does not get me up to 60
MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use
the "straight" intakes like yours, to point the carburetors
forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and
my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of
suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet
be ing in the "suction" area in front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to
mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be difficult because
my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine
that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety
& performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
<kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16
AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since
most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place.
One thing I can add is
that the increase in airspeed comes
from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs
etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to
fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle
<victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my
recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight
were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of
the wing down to 12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down
underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the
center
section so that no air could "leak" or
flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of
the wing (causing drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is
now under the center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is
not near the aft end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able
to do a static thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant
spring scale registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is
nominally 58-60HP at its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was
making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide
chord propeller, 65 inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch
measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post
is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers
who have measured the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532,
and 582 engines and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds
of thrust is a little,
a lot, average, below average, or
incredible for a Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of
thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your
503/532/582 on a Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct
for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the
503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think
is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for
short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the
center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to
come up with what would
work best). Finally went with thin
aluminum sheet metal and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and
installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this
made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed
to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce
drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from
Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag
redusing things that Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly.
Hopefully I can get my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise
speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large
bush tires and Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox
and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for
light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning
proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
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older I get, the less tolerant I am of
those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part
of
it, please remove my email address
before sending.
Support Your Lists This Month --
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify the proper measurements
of the wing and tail incidence. My wings sit on the fuselage at the correct
angle within a small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the correct
angle because that is set at the factory when they weld the fuselage jig. My
horizontal tail started out at the correct angle (per Duane's measurement and
the plans) and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy with the LE of the
tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel tank forward, so I can start lowering
the tail back down towards the "normal" setting.
I am not certain what the "level flight" measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot
recall if anyone has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing has
to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
Bill
How about adjusting the wing angle
of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer no
matter how improbable must be the answer".
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar
BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the
"solid" center section fairing does not get me up
to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
"straight" intakes like yours, to point the
carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed
AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS
exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower
on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
<kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at
its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what
would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
==========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
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errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
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target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Thank you! This now gives me a reasonable target for solving my "wierd" Bill-only
problems. Once I can get to this speed, I know I have a Kolb that is performing
"normally" (at least compared to aonther HKS Firestar), and THEN I can start
reducing drag with fairings and clean-up.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 7:05 AM
58 to 60 would be
the "normal" speed without any
"improvements" made to clean it up.Larry
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar
BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the
"solid" center section fairing does not get me up
to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
"straight" intakes like yours, to point the
carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed
AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS
exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower
on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
<kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at
its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what
would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
==========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
==========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
I=99ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more tha
n 5900 rpm static with a 62=9D 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the way d
own to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running excep
t for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any adj
ustment or way to check this?
Have not done measured static thrust test but it sure pulls strong against t
he rope tied to the tail - easily puts the tail up in the air.
Previous replies to this same question were =9Creduce prop pitch till y
ou get 6200 -6300 rpm=9D
I=99m at 8-1/4deg !?!?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote
:
>
> 58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to cl
ean it up.
> Larry
>
>> On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wro
te:
>>
>> Hi Larry,
>>
>> What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the str
ut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>>
>> I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairin
g does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>>
>> 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours,
to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curve
d type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction a
t the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" ar
ea in front of the prop.
>>
>> 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This w
ill be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
>>
>> 3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-pr
ofit entities
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>>
>> I can't add much
>> of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
>> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
>> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
>> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
>> Anxiously waiting to
>> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
>> On Sun,
>> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>>
>>
>> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
>> modifications since last test flight were:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
>> inches under the wing.
>>
>> 2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>>
>> 3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
>> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
>> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
>> and bad airflow into the prop)
>>
>> 4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
>> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
>> of the CG rrange.
>>
>>
>>
>> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
>> measurement.
>>
>>
>>
>> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
>> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
>> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
>> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
>> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>>
>>
>>
>> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
>> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
>> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
>> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
>> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
>> 2.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
>> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
>>
>>
>>
>> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
>> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
>>
>>
>>
>> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
>> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
>> performance?
>>
>>
>>
>> The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
>> made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
>> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
>> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
>> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
>> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
>> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
>> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
>> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
>> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
>> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
>> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
>> gear legs than Larry does.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Berle
>>
>> www.ezflaphandle.com
>> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>
>> www.grantstar.net
>> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
>> entities
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>>
>> br>
>> fts!)
>>
>> r>
>> >
>> e.com" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>>
>> rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>
>> ==========
>>
>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>>
>> ==========
>>
>> FORUMS -
>>
>> eferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> ==========
>>
>> WIKI -
>>
>> errer"
>> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>
>> ==========
>>
>> b Site -
>>
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>
>> rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> The
>> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
>> intolerant of others.
>> If you forward this email, or any part of
>> it, please remove my email address before sending.
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> br> fts!)
>> r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?Kolb-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of oth
ers.
>
> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email addre
ss before sending.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Bill
Having to raise the horizontal stabilizer as high as you have to is the
symptom of the wing being set with the leading edge too high and/or the
trailing edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to keep from
climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail boom being pushed through
the air than if it were lined up with the air flow. It's a bit like putting
your plane in a slip for landing.
Sorry this all worth what you paid for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44
years of marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us dies.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify the proper
> measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My wings sit on the fuselage
> at the correct angle within a small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube)
> is at the correct angle because that is set at the factory when they weld
> the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the correct angle (per
> Duane's measurement and the plans) and I had to raise the tail in order for
> it to fly level.
>
> Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy with the LE of
> the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel tank forward, so I can start
> lowering the tail back down towards the "normal" setting.
>
> I am not certain what the "level flight" measurement is on the Firestar. I
> cannot recall if anyone has an official concrete number "the bottom of the
> wing has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
>
> Bill
> How about adjusting the wing angle
> of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
> have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer no
> matter how improbable must be the answer".
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
> MKIIIC
> On Mon,
> Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
>
> What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar
> BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>
>
> I have only a few possibilities left if the
> "solid" center section fairing does not get me up
> to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>
>
> 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
> "straight" intakes like yours, to point the
> carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
> curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
> little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed
> AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
> front of the prop.
>
>
> 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS
> exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower
> on the mount plate than yours.
>
>
> 3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
> gearbox
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
> <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>
> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>
>
> I can't add much
>
> of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
>
> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
> is
>
> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
>
> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
>
> Anxiously waiting to
>
> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
>
> On Sun,
>
> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
>
> modifications since last test flight were:
>
>
> 1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
> 12
>
> inches under the wing.
>
>
> 2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>
>
> 3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
>
> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
>
> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
> drag
>
> and bad airflow into the prop)
>
>
> 4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
> center
>
> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
> end
>
> of the CG rrange.
>
>
> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
> thrust
>
> measurement.
>
>
> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
> registered
>
> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at
> its
>
> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
>
> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
> inch
>
> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>
>
> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
>
> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
> the
>
> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
> and
>
> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
> little,
>
> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
> Firestar
>
> 2.
>
>
> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
>
> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
> Kolb?
>
>
> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
>
> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
>
>
> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
>
> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
>
> performance?
>
>
> The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
>
> made four or five of them trying to come up with what
> would
>
> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
> and
>
> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
>
> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
>
> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>
>
> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
>
> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
> U-Fly-it)
>
> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
> Jack
>
> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
> my
>
> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
>
> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>
>
> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
> Firestar
>
> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
>
> gear legs than Larry does.
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
>
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
>
> www.grantstar.net
>
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit
>
> entities
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> br>
>
> fts!)
>
>
> r>
>
> >
>
> e.com"
> rel="noreferrer"
>
> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>
>
> rel="noreferrer"
>
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> FORUMS -
>
>
> eferrer"
>
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> WIKI -
>
>
> errer"
>
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> b Site -
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
> rel="noreferrer"
>
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> --
>
> The
>
> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
>
> intolerant of others.
>
> If you forward this email, or any part of
>
> it, please remove my email address before sending.
>
>
> ==========
>
> br>
> fts!)
>
> r>
> >
> e.com" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> ==========
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==========
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> WIKI -
>
> errer"
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ==========
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Well, John the first thing that I would do is make tachometer is reading cor
rectly.
I=99m running a different engine and prop combination( 2702 Hirth with
a 3 blade, 64=9D Powerfin)and I=99m pitched at 6.7 degrees to o
btain my maximum rpm of 5500rpm. This isn=99t apples to apples because
I=99m running a low rpm high torque engine with a single carb, rated a
t 40 hp with 2:29 ratio gearbox.
Is this a single carb engine? I=99d drop pitch to 6.5 degrees and see i
f that works. You=99re also swinging a heavy prop. I think most guys r
un a 60=9D 3 blade on that engine? I=99m not sure about that? I s
uspect your tach. If you had a timing issue it would be hard to start and pr
obably would have burned up by now. As always it=99s worth what it cos
t ya.
George H
Firestar, FS 100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> I=99ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more t
han 5900 rpm static with a 62=9D 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the way
down to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running exc
ept for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any a
djustment or way to check this?
> Have not done measured static thrust test but it sure pulls strong against
the rope tied to the tail - easily puts the tail up in the air.
> Previous replies to this same question were =9Creduce prop pitch til
l you get 6200 -6300 rpm=9D
> I=99m at 8-1/4deg !?!?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrot
e:
>>
>> 58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to c
lean it up.
>> Larry
>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wr
ote:
>>>
>>> Hi Larry,
>>>
>>> What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the st
rut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>>>
>>> I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairi
ng does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>>>
>>> 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours
, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curv
ed type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction a
t the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" ar
ea in front of the prop.
>>>
>>> 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This
will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
>>>
>>> 3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
>>>
>>> Bill Berle
>>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-p
rofit entities
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>>> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>>>
>>> I can't add much
>>> of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
>>> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
>>> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
>>> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
>>> Anxiously waiting to
>>> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
>>> On Sun,
>>> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
>>> modifications since last test flight were:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
>>> inches under the wing.
>>>
>>> 2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>>>
>>> 3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
>>> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
>>> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
>>> and bad airflow into the prop)
>>>
>>> 4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
>>> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
>>> of the CG rrange.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
>>> measurement.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
>>> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
>>> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
>>> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
>>> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
>>> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
>>> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
>>> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
>>> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
>>> 2.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
>>> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
>>> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
>>> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
>>> performance?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
>>> made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
>>> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
>>> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
>>> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
>>> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
>>> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
>>> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
>>> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
>>> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
>>> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
>>> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
>>> gear legs than Larry does.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill Berle
>>>
>>> www.ezflaphandle.com
>>> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>>
>>> www.grantstar.net
>>> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
>>> entities
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>>
>>> br>
>>> fts!)
>>>
>>> r>
>>> >
>>> e.com" rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>>>
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>
>>> ==========
>>>
>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>>>
>>> ==========
>>>
>>> FORUMS -
>>>
>>> eferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>
>>> ==========
>>>
>>> WIKI -
>>>
>>> errer"
>>> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>
>>> ==========
>>>
>>> b Site -
>>>
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> The
>>> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
>>> intolerant of others.
>>> If you forward this email, or any part of
>>> it, please remove my email address before sending.
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> br> fts!)
>>> r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> ==========
>>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Kolb-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of ot
hers.
>>
>> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email addr
ess before sending.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
As you recommended, I tried a =9Ctiny tach=9D with the input sen
sor wire around the spark plug wire , in several different positions and num
ber of wraps...the readings were way off- 12000 which might be some multiple
of the real rpm, but...
So I can=99t say that was useful. What other method or connection poin
t is foolproof? My rpm is now shown on a GRT EIS monitor ( making sure that t
he input is for the 503)
Kolb recommended and sold me the prop, - 12 deg. recommended pitch starting p
oint,
If I Allowed the plane to taxi and then observed that the rpm was increasin
g would this be a bad idea?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:22 PM, George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, John the first thing that I would do is make tachometer is reading c
orrectly.
> I=99m running a different engine and prop combination( 2702 Hirth wi
th a 3 blade, 64=9D Powerfin)and I=99m pitched at 6.7 degrees to
obtain my maximum rpm of 5500rpm. This isn=99t apples to apples becau
se I=99m running a low rpm high torque engine with a single carb, rate
d at 40 hp with 2:29 ratio gearbox.
> Is this a single carb engine? I=99d drop pitch to 6.5 degrees and se
e if that works. You=99re also swinging a heavy prop. I think most guy
s run a 60=9D 3 blade on that engine? I=99m not sure about that?
I suspect your tach. If you had a timing issue it would be hard to start an
d probably would have burned up by now. As always it=99s worth what it
cost ya.
> George H
> Firestar, FS 100, 2702 Hirth
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton@gmail.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> I=99ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more t
han 5900 rpm static with a 62=9D 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the way
down to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running exc
ept for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any a
djustment or way to check this?
>> Have not done measured static thrust test but it sure pulls strong agains
t the rope tied to the tail - easily puts the tail up in the air.
>> Previous replies to this same question were =9Creduce prop pitch ti
ll you get 6200 -6300 rpm=9D
>> I=99m at 8-1/4deg !?!?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wro
te:
>>>
>>> 58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to c
lean it up.
>>> Larry
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> w
rote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>>
>>>> What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the s
trut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>>>>
>>>> I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fair
ing does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like your
s, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other cur
ved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction
at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" a
rea in front of the prop.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. Thi
s will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours
.
>>>>
>>>> 3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
>>>>
>>>> Bill Berle
>>>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-
profit entities
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>>>> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>>> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>>>>
>>>> I can't add much
>>>> of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
>>>> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
>>>> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
>>>> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
>>>> Anxiously waiting to
>>>> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
>>>> On Sun,
>>>> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
>>>> modifications since last test flight were:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
>>>> inches under the wing.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>>>>
>>>> 3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
>>>> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
>>>> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
>>>> and bad airflow into the prop)
>>>>
>>>> 4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
>>>> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
>>>> of the CG rrange.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
>>>> measurement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
>>>> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
>>>> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
>>>> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
>>>> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
>>>> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
>>>> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
>>>> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
>>>> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
>>>> 2.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
>>>> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
>>>> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
>>>> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
>>>> performance?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
>>>> made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
>>>> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
>>>> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
>>>> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
>>>> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
>>>> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
>>>> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
>>>> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
>>>> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
>>>> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
>>>> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
>>>> gear legs than Larry does.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bill Berle
>>>>
>>>> www.ezflaphandle.com
>>>> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>>>
>>>> www.grantstar.net
>>>> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
>>>> entities
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>> br>
>>>> fts!)
>>>>
>>>> r>
>>>> >
>>>> e.com" rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>>>>
>>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>>
>>>> eferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>> WIKI -
>>>>
>>>> errer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>> b Site -
>>>>
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>
>>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> The
>>>> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
>>>> intolerant of others.
>>>> If you forward this email, or any part of
>>>> it, please remove my email address before sending.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> br> fts!)
>>>> r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> ==========
>>>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Na
vigator?Kolb-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of o
thers.
>>>
>>> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email add
ress before sending.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Bill,
John=99s procedure for setting propeller pitch will definitely help y
ou find
the best all around setting, but it won=99t tell you if your engine i
s
producing the thrust that it should be capable of.
Static thrust will not tell you everything but it will tell you a lot. For
aircraft with high cruise speed, it is possible for static thrust results
to be almost useless, but for ultralight cruise speeds where max climb and
max cruise are relatively close, your static thrust result will be a fairly
good indicator of overall performance. Also, some props might vary by
20lbs static & not vary much at all in climb & cruise. Props have a bit of
magic to them!
The way I pitched my props is similar to John. I pitched the prop until I
it is about 400 rpm below the maximum engine rpm, then fine tune it from
there. Most props will unload about 300-400 rpm from static to maximum
speed.
Regarding your question about static thrust results: My Ultrastar with
with 40hp cuyuna & 1.98:1 redrive 50=9D 2-blade got 225lbs. The 43h
p
version with a 60=9D 3-blade 2.59:1 redrive got 275 -295lbs ( the 295
lbs was
after I inlaid anti-vortex tips). If I remember correctly, my slingshot
with 64hp 582, 2.59 redrive and 66=9D 3-blade was a little over 350lb
s.
Hope this is of help. =93Richard Swiderski
--
*Click on to Richard's Blog: <http://GodStuffRichard.blogspot.com>
<http://GodStuffRichard.blogspot.com> *
*Thoughts On God And Life <http://godstuffrichard.blogspot.com> -**Prose,
*
*Prayers, Poems & Ponderings *
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
If you=99re pulling 5900 rpm static, I would fly it and see what I hav
e inflight. There is a pretty good chance that you=99re going to pick u
p that extra 300 rpm. I run the same GRT 2000 EIS. With a Rotax CDI it
=99s suppose be programed for you from the factory. So I=99m guessing t
hat=99s not a problem. I know mine worked great once I changed the pu
lse input for a Hirth. You never said, if you=99re running single or d
ual carbs?
George H
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 5, 2018, at 5:12 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> As you recommended, I tried a =9Ctiny tach=9D with the input s
ensor wire around the spark plug wire , in several different positions and n
umber of wraps...the readings were way off- 12000 which might be some multip
le of the real rpm, but...
> So I can=99t say that was useful. What other method or connection po
int is foolproof? My rpm is now shown on a GRT EIS monitor ( making sure tha
t the input is for the 503)
> Kolb recommended and sold me the prop, - 12 deg. recommended pitch startin
g point,
> If I Allowed the plane to taxi and then observed that the rpm was increas
ing would this be a bad idea?
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:22 PM, George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, John the first thing that I would do is make tachometer is reading c
orrectly.
>> I=99m running a different engine and prop combination( 2702 Hirth w
ith a 3 blade, 64=9D Powerfin)and I=99m pitched at 6.7 degrees t
o obtain my maximum rpm of 5500rpm. This isn=99t apples to apples beca
use I=99m running a low rpm high torque engine with a single carb, rat
ed at 40 hp with 2:29 ratio gearbox.
>> Is this a single carb engine? I=99d drop pitch to 6.5 degrees and s
ee if that works. You=99re also swinging a heavy prop. I think most gu
ys run a 60=9D 3 blade on that engine? I=99m not sure about that
? I suspect your tach. If you had a timing issue it would be hard to start a
nd probably would have burned up by now. As always it=99s worth what i
t cost ya.
>> George H
>> Firestar, FS 100, 2702 Hirth
>> 14GDH
>> Mesick, Michigan
>> gdhelton@gmail.com
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I=99ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more
than 5900 rpm static with a 62=9D 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the w
ay down to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running e
xcept for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any
adjustment or way to check this?
>>> Have not done measured static thrust test but it sure pulls strong again
st the rope tied to the tail - easily puts the tail up in the air.
>>> Previous replies to this same question were =9Creduce prop pitch t
ill you get 6200 -6300 rpm=9D
>>> I=99m at 8-1/4deg !?!?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wr
ote:
>>>>
>>>> 58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to
clean it up.
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> w
rote:
>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>>>
>>>>> What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the s
trut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>>>>>
>>>>> I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fai
ring does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like you
rs, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other cu
rved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suctio
n at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction"
area in front of the prop.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. Th
is will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than your
s.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Berle
>>>>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraf
t
>>>>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for
-profit entities
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>>>>> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>>>>> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't add much
>>>>> of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
>>>>> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
>>>>> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
>>>>> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
>>>>> Anxiously waiting to
>>>>> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
>>>>> On Sun,
>>>>> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
>>>>> modifications since last test flight were:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
>>>>> inches under the wing.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
>>>>> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
>>>>> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
>>>>> and bad airflow into the prop)
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
>>>>> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
>>>>> of the CG rrange.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
>>>>> measurement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
>>>>> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
>>>>> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
>>>>> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
>>>>> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
>>>>> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
>>>>> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
>>>>> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
>>>>> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
>>>>> 2.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
>>>>> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
>>>>> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
>>>>> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
>>>>> performance?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
>>>>> made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
>>>>> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
>>>>> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
>>>>> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
>>>>> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
>>>>> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
>>>>> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
>>>>> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
>>>>> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
>>>>> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
>>>>> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
>>>>> gear legs than Larry does.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Berle
>>>>>
>>>>> www.ezflaphandle.com
>>>>> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>>>>
>>>>> www.grantstar.net
>>>>> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
>>>>> entities
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ==========
>>>>>
>>>>> br>
>>>>> fts!)
>>>>>
>>>>> r>
>>>>> >
>>>>> e.com" rel="noreferrer"
>>>>> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>>>>>
>>>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>
>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>>
>>>>> ==========
>>>>>
>>>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>>>>>
>>>>> ==========
>>>>>
>>>>> FORUMS -
>>>>>
>>>>> eferrer"
>>>>> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ==========
>>>>>
>>>>> WIKI -
>>>>>
>>>>> errer"
>>>>> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ==========
>>>>>
>>>>> b Site -
>>>>>
>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>>
>>>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>>>
>>>>> ==========
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> The
>>>>> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
>>>>> intolerant of others.
>>>>> If you forward this email, or any part of
>>>>> it, please remove my email address before sending.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> br> fts!)
>>>>> r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kolb-List
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> FORUMS -
>>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> WIKI -
>>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> b Site -
>>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribu
tion
>>>>> ==========
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of o
thers.
>>>>
>>>> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email ad
dress before sending.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
I agree totally with the logic, but the measurements and parameters I got from
Duane at Kolb are showing that the wing is on the fuselage right. The trailing
edge of the wing is set by the location of the U-joinot welded at the factory.
The leading edge is set by where the bolt/pin hole is drilled in the spar fitting
on the wing. This hole was almost exactly where Duane said the plans call
for.
So w hat I am saying is that the airplane is behaving as if the incidences are
all wrong, but the incidence measurements are correct as far as I can see.
If John H wants to take a vacation and come out to Los Angeles, use his know ledge
and experience to get to the bottom of all this I would certainly welcome
it... but I have a feeling he pretty much has no interest in being around Los
Angeles city. Not many Kolbers here :)
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 11:00 AM
Bill
Having to raise the horizontal
stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing
being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing
edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to
keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail
boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up
with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in
a slip for landing.
Sorry this all worth what you paid
for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of
marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us
dies.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify
the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My
wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a
small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the
correct angle because that is set at the factory when they
weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the
correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans)
and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy
with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel
tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down
towards the "normal" setting.
I am not certain what the "level flight"
measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone
has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing
has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
<kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
Bill
How about adjusting the wing angle
of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer
no
matter how improbable must be the answer".
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your
HKS/Firestar
BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the
"solid" center section fairing does not get me
up
to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
"straight" intakes like yours, to point the
carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward
speed
AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock
HKS
exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is
lower
on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST
test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
<kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my
knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up
the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP
at
its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of
max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and
582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate
or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover
(I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what
would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C
is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer
landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
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==========
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eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
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==========
b Site -
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rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
==========
br>
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r>
>
e.com"
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rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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==========
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==========
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fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Bill,=C2-
FWIW, I measured my static thrust on my Ultrastar last year.=C2- Its Cuyu
na 430 only has 30HP at sea level, and I ran this test at 6000' altitude (I
live in Denver, CO).=C2- So it will be much lower HP than your rig, but
I wanted to give you this data for comparison.=C2-=C2-
We recorded 163 lbs of thrust on a digital scale.=C2- I confirmed the sca
le's accuracy by checking it against my body weight...=C2-=C2-
Jeff in Colorado
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Bill,
Is there anything you can do to eliminate all the extraneous garbage attached to
you comments? Takes up a lot of space. Maybe a setting is wrong?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484470#484470
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Got some good friends out there in addition to Bill B, but got too much on my plate
at the moment to head back to California.
Sometimes a problem is invisible to many eyes for a long period of time, maybe
never being solved. Then on the other hand a person will walk up and say, "Hey!
Why is that part that way?" Bingo the problem is solved.
I don't know what Bill B's airplane is up to. Maybe that HKS ain't putting out
the horses the book and seller said it should. Who knows. I do know a high
mounted pusher should not push the nose up, but down. From Bill's description
he has a very sluggish FS. Why?
I don't know. ;-(
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
I agree totally with the logic, but the measurements and parameters I got from
Duane at Kolb are showing that the wing is on the fuselage right. The trailing
edge of the wing is set by the location of the U-joinot welded at the factory.
The leading edge is set by where the bolt/pin hole is drilled in the spar fitting
on the wing. This hole was almost exactly where Duane said the plans call
for.
So w hat I am saying is that the airplane is behaving as if the incidences are
all wrong, but the incidence measurements are correct as far as I can see.
If John H wants to take a vacation and come out to Los Angeles, use his know ledge
and experience to get to the bottom of all this I would certainly welcome
it... but I have a feeling he pretty much has no interest in being around Los
Angeles city. Not many Kolbers here :)
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 11:00 AM
Bill
Having to raise the horizontal
stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing
being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing
edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to
keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail
boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up
with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in
a slip for landing.
Sorry this all worth what you paid
for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of
marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us
dies.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify
the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My
wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a
small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the
correct angle because that is set at the factory when they
weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the
correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans)
and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy
with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel
tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down
towards the "normal" setting.
I am not certain what the "level flight"
measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone
has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing
has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
<kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
Bill
How about adjusting the wing angle
of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer
no
matter how improbable must be the answer".
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your
HKS/Firestar
BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the
"solid" center section fairing does not get me
up
to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
"straight" intakes like yours, to point the
carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward
speed
AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock
HKS
exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is
lower
on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST
test
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
<kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
I can't add much
of anything to what John said, since most of my
knowledge
comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
is
that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up
the
drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
Anxiously waiting to
hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
On Sun,
Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
modifications since last test flight were:
1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
12
inches under the wing.
2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
section so that no air could "leak" or flow
upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
drag
and bad airflow into the prop)
4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
center
of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
end
of the CG rrange.
On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
thrust
measurement.
At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
registered
250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP
at
its
redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of
max
RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
inch
diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
the
static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
and
similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
little,
a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
Firestar
2.
Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
Kolb?
Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and
582?
How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate
or
acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
performance?
The next step is to finalize the center section cover
(I
made four or five of them trying to come up with what
would
work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
and
Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
U-Fly-it)
and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
Jack
Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
my
Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C
is
getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
Firestar
2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer
landing
gear legs than Larry does.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit
entities
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
==========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
WIKI -
errer"
target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
--
The
older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
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==========
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
e.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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==========
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eferrer"
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==========
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Bill, Did you ever put trim tabs on your elevators? I went through all the
emails I'd saved up since last August when this thread started and I didn't
find anything from you on trim tabs other than you believed they'd have to
be big with a big deflection. Attached are pictures of the trim tabs I
added to the Mk IIIX to fix its lawn dart tendency. They were actually a
bit too much for flying solo, but just a tad and since the owner intended
to use the airplane for his personal flight training I left them that way.
Even so it only took a two finger grip and light pressure to keep the
airplane flying straight and level. I'm going from memory as I never made
a drawing of them but the deflected portion was about 6" X 1.5" and bent
about 20 degrees.The small amount that they moved the elevator made no
discernible difference to cruise speed.
Rick
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 9:15 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote
:
>
> I agree totally with the logic, but the measurements and parameters I got
> from Duane at Kolb are showing that the wing is on the fuselage right. Th
e
> trailing edge of the wing is set by the location of the U-joinot welded a
t
> the factory. The leading edge is set by where the bolt/pin hole is drille
d
> in the spar fitting on the wing. This hole was almost exactly where Duane
> said the plans call for.
>
> So w hat I am saying is that the airplane is behaving as if the incidence
s
> are all wrong, but the incidence measurements are correct as far as I can
> see.
>
> If John H wants to take a vacation and come out to Los Angeles, use his
> know ledge and experience to get to the bottom of all this I would
> certainly welcome it... but I have a feeling he pretty much has no intere
st
> in being around Los Angeles city. Not many Kolbers here :)
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 11:00 AM
>
> Bill
> Having to raise the horizontal
> stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing
> being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing
> edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to
> keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail
> boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up
> with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in
> a slip for landing.
> Sorry this all worth what you paid
> for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of
> marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
> night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us
> dies.
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
> MKIIIC
> On Mon,
> Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify
> the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My
> wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a
> small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the
> correct angle because that is set at the factory when they
> weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the
> correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans)
> and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
>
>
> Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy
> with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel
> tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down
> towards the "normal" setting.
>
>
> I am not certain what the "level flight"
> measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone
> has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing
> has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
> <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>
> Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
>
>
> Bill
>
> How about adjusting the wing angle
>
> of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
>
> have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer
> no
>
> matter how improbable must be the answer".
>
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
>
> MKIIIC
>
> On Mon,
>
> Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
>
> What was the cruising speed you got from your
> HKS/Firestar
>
> BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>
>
> I have only a few possibilities left if the
>
> "solid" center section fairing does not get me
> up
>
> to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>
>
> 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
>
> "straight" intakes like yours, to point the
>
> carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
>
> curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
>
> little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward
> speed
>
> AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
>
> front of the prop.
>
>
> 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock
> HKS
>
> exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is
> lower
>
> on the mount plate than yours.
>
>
> 3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
>
> gearbox
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
>
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
>
> www.grantstar.net
>
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit
>
> entities
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
>
> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST
> test
>
>
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
>
> <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>
>
> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>
>
> I can't add much
>
>
> of anything to what John said, since most of my
> knowledge
>
>
> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
>
> is
>
>
> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up
> the
>
>
> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
>
>
> Anxiously waiting to
>
>
> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
>
>
> On Sun,
>
>
> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
>
>
> modifications since last test flight were:
>
>
> 1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
>
> 12
>
>
> inches under the wing.
>
>
> 2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>
>
> 3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
>
>
> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
>
>
> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
>
> drag
>
>
> and bad airflow into the prop)
>
>
> 4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
>
> center
>
>
> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
>
> end
>
>
> of the CG rrange.
>
>
> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
>
> thrust
>
>
> measurement.
>
>
> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
>
> registered
>
>
> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP
> at
>
> its
>
>
> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of
> max
>
>
> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
>
> inch
>
>
> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>
>
> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
>
>
> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
>
> the
>
>
> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
>
> and
>
>
> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
>
> little,
>
>
> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
>
> Firestar
>
>
> 2.
>
>
> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
>
>
> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
>
> Kolb?
>
>
> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
>
>
> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and
> 582?
>
>
> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate
> or
>
>
> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
>
>
> performance?
>
>
> The next step is to finalize the center section cover
> (I
>
>
> made four or five of them trying to come up with what
>
> would
>
>
> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
>
> and
>
>
> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
>
>
> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
>
>
> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>
>
> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
>
>
> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
>
> U-Fly-it)
>
>
> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
>
> Jack
>
>
> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
>
> my
>
>
> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C
> is
>
>
> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>
>
> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
>
> Firestar
>
>
> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer
> landing
>
>
> gear legs than Larry does.
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
>
>
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
>
> www.grantstar.net
>
>
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
>
> for-profit
>
>
> entities
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> br>
>
>
> fts!)
>
>
> r>
>
>
> >
>
>
> e.com"
>
> rel="noreferrer"
>
>
> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>
>
> rel="noreferrer"
>
>
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>
>
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> FORUMS -
>
>
> eferrer"
>
>
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
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>
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>
>
> errer"
>
>
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
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>
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> b Site -
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
> rel="noreferrer"
>
>
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> --
>
>
> The
>
>
> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
>
>
> intolerant of others.
>
>
> If you forward this email, or any part of
>
>
> it, please remove my email address before sending.
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> br>
>
> fts!)
>
>
> r>
>
> >
>
> e.com"
> rel="noreferrer"
>
> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>
>
> rel="noreferrer"
>
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
> ==========
>
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
>
> ==========
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>
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>
>
> eferrer"
>
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
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>
>
> errer"
>
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
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>
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> b Site -
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
> rel="noreferrer"
>
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
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>
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>
> br>
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>
> r>
> >
> e.com" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
>
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>
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>
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
thanks for the advice
dual carbs dual ignition, rotax exhaust, no silencer. 2.58 B reduction gear
box.carbs have been balanced,what type of scale is everyone using for stati
c thrust measurement...marlin fishing...?
john fittsebastopol,ca
On Monday, November 5, 2018 6:10 PM, George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
wrote:
If you=99re pulling 5900 rpm static, I would fly it and see what I h
ave inflight. There is a pretty good chance that you=99re going to pi
ck up that extra 300 rpm. I run the same GRT 2000 EIS. With a Rotax CDI it
=99s suppose be programed for you from the factory. So I=99m gu
essing that=99s not a problem. =C2-I know mine worked great once I
changed the pulse input for a Hirth. You never said, if you=99re runn
ing single or dual carbs?George HFirestar=C2-Mesick, Michigan=C2-gdhelt
on@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 5:12 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
As you recommended, I tried a =9Ctiny tach=9D with the input se
nsor wire around the spark plug wire , in several different positions and n
umber of wraps...the readings were way off- 12000 which might be some multi
ple of the real rpm, but...So I can=99t say that was useful. What oth
er method or connection point is foolproof? My rpm is now shown on a GRT EI
S monitor ( making sure that the input is for the 503)Kolb recommended and
sold me the prop, - 12 deg. recommended pitch starting point,=C2-If =C2
-I Allowed the plane to taxi and then observed that the rpm was increasin
g would this be a bad idea?Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:22 PM, George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, John the first thing that I would do is make tachometer is reading co
rrectly.=C2-I=99m running a different engine and prop combination(
2702 Hirth with a 3 blade, 64=9D Powerfin)and I=99m pitched at
6.7 degrees to obtain my maximum rpm of 5500rpm. This isn=99t apples
to apples because I=99m running a low rpm high torque engine with a s
ingle carb, rated at 40 hp with 2:29 ratio gearbox.=C2-Is this a single c
arb engine? I=99d drop pitch to 6.5 degrees and see if that works. Yo
u=99re also swinging a heavy prop. I think most guys run a 60
=9D 3 blade on that engine? I=99m not sure about that? I suspect your
tach. If you had a timing issue it would be hard to start and probably wou
ld have burned up by now. As always it=99s worth what it cost ya.=C2
-George HFirestar, FS 100, 2702 Hirth=C2-14GDH=C2-Mesick, Michigan=C2
-gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I=99ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more th
an 5900 rpm static with a 62=9D 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the way
down to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running ex
cept for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any
adjustment or way to check this?Have not done measured static thrust test
but it sure pulls strong against the rope tied to the tail - easily puts th
e tail up in the air.=C2-Previous replies to this same question were
=9Creduce prop pitch till you get 6200 -6300 rpm=9DI=99m at
8-1/4deg !?!?=C2-
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to cle
an it up.Larry
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote
:
Hi Larry,
What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut
fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing
does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings:
1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, t
o point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved
type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction a
t the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" a
rea in front of the prop.
2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This wi
ll be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours.
3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com=C2- - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraf
t
www.grantstar.net =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - winning proposals fo
r non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2-Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
=C2-To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
=C2-Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
=C2-I can't add much
=C2-of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge
=C2-comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is
=C2-that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the
=C2-drag-=C2- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
=C2-Anxiously waiting to
=C2-hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
=C2-On Sun,
=C2-Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
=C2-wrote:
=C2-Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
=C2-Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
=C2-modifications since last test flight were:
=C2-1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12
=C2-inches under the wing.
=C2-2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
=C2-3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
=C2-section so that no air could "leak" or flow
=C2-upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag
=C2-and bad airflow into the prop)
=C2-4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center
=C2-of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end
=C2-of the CG rrange.
=C2-On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust
=C2-measurement.
=C2-At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered
=C2-250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its
=C2-redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max
=C2-RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch
=C2-diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
=C2-So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
=C2-data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the
=C2-static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and
=C2-similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little,
=C2-a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar
=C2-2.
=C2-Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
=C2-static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb?
=C2-Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
=C2-class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582?
=C2-How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or
=C2-acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
=C2-performance?
=C2-The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I
=C2-made four or five of them trying to come up with what would
=C2-work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and
=C2-Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
=C2-resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
=C2-difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
=C2-Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
=C2-streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it)
=C2-and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack
=C2-Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my
=C2-Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is
=C2-getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
=C2-Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar
=C2-2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing
=C2-gear legs than Larry does.
=C2-Bill Berle
=C2-www.ezflaphandle.com=C2-
=C2-- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
=C2-www.grantstar.net =C2- =C2-
=C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profi
t
=C2-entities
=C2-==========
=C2-br>
=C2-fts!)
=C2-r>
=C2->
=C2-e.com" rel="noreferrer"
=C2-target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
=C2-rel="noreferrer"
=C2-target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
=C2-==========
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=C2---
=C2-The
=C2-older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
=C2-intolerant of others.
=C2-If you forward this email, or any part of
=C2-it, please remove my email address before sending.
br>fts!)
r>>e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
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rs.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email addres
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
I probably have less than 10 minutes of Kolb air time, so I can't claim
to speak with authority. But many on this list have talked about what
poor performers Kolbs are if the center section gap seal is missing, and
having an opening between the inboard end of the wings and the fuselage
(or the other wing) has proven to be very detrimental to the wing's
performance in many other planes. From what I've read, it's due to
getting 'tip drag' in four places, instead of two, and effectively
halving (or worse) the aspect ratio of the wing. If that was happening
to your plane, could the wing have had such poor efficiency that it
needed to have an abnormally high AOA relative to the tail? If that was
happening, it could account for poor top speed, as well. Just
speculating, of course. Have you tried just flying it down the runway in
ground effect since closing up the center section?
Charlie
On 11/5/2018 9:13 PM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> I agree totally with the logic, but the measurements and parameters I got from
Duane at Kolb are showing that the wing is on the fuselage right. The trailing
edge of the wing is set by the location of the U-joinot welded at the factory.
The leading edge is set by where the bolt/pin hole is drilled in the spar
fitting on the wing. This hole was almost exactly where Duane said the plans call
for.
>
> So w hat I am saying is that the airplane is behaving as if the incidences are
all wrong, but the incidence measurements are correct as far as I can see.
>
> If John H wants to take a vacation and come out to Los Angeles, use his know
ledge and experience to get to the bottom of all this I would certainly welcome
it... but I have a feeling he pretty much has no interest in being around Los
Angeles city. Not many Kolbers here :)
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 11:00 AM
>
> Bill
> Having to raise the horizontal
> stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing
> being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing
> edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to
> keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail
> boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up
> with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in
> a slip for landing.
> Sorry this all worth what you paid
> for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of
> marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
> night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us
> dies.
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
> MKIIIC
> On Mon,
> Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
>
> Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify
> the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My
> wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a
> small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the
> correct angle because that is set at the factory when they
> weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the
> correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans)
> and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
>
>
>
> Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy
> with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel
> tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down
> towards the "normal" setting.
>
>
>
> I am not certain what the "level flight"
> measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone
> has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing
> has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
>
>
>
>
>
>
---
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
"... many on this list have talked about what poor performers Kolbs are if the
center section gap seal is missing, and having an opening between the inboard
end of the wings and the fuselage "
" ... From what I've read, it's due to getting 'tip drag' in four places, instead
of two, and effectively halving (or worse) the aspect ratio of the wing.
If that was happening to your plane, could the wing have had such poor efficiency
that it needed to have an abnormally high AOA relative to the tail?"
"... If that was happening, it could account for poor top speed, as well. Just
speculating, of course. Have you tried just flying it down the runway in ground
effect since closing up the center section?"
------------------------------
Charlie this is exactly why I chose to re-do the center gap seal first, before
assuming the engine and/or propeller was wrong. I agree 100% that the drag and
distrubed flow from a bad or missing gap seal can cause much bigger problems
than we would expect. As an old washed up glider pilot, I can personally verify
that air leakage and disturbed air flow is a big deal. In gliders it's all we
have to work with... no engine or propeller to "cheat" with :)
It's not that the Kolb needs the lift form thecenter section... the Kolb has PLENTY
of wing area to make enough lift without the center. But the disturbance
and "four wingtips" effect you mention can act like a spoiler or airbrake. Maybe
some of the experienced Kolbers can quantify just how much of a difference
it makes with and without the gap seal?
So this is why I put a lot of time and effort into fixing this problem first, then
test flying it, and seeing just how much of the problem this one thing did
or did not solve. Before I start playing around with strut fairings and other
deag reduction tweaks.
First test flight will hopefully be this week. All I need is to get the Velcro
glued on to the wing and center gap seal well enough to be sure it will be secure
and not let air flow through any "holes" or gaps.
Although I have almost zero Kolb experience, I do be lieve that I will be able
to tell immediately if this fix is making a big difference or not.
Bill
Message 22
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar - TRIM TABS |
Hi Richard,
Yes I did put on elevator and rudder trim tabs and they are much larger than the
ones in your photos. The combination of raising the leading edge of the tail,
plus the trim tabs on each elevator, FINALLY allowed me to let go of the stick
(carefully) in level flight for a few seconds at a time. If I can remember,
next time I go to the hangar I will take photos of the tabs.
My tabs are taped on with double-stick tape, and can be removed if needed. I am
HOPING that the combination of moving the fuel forward, and fixing the wing center
section fairing, will allow me to put the stabilizerb ack in its original
position. I am happy to leave the trim tabs there if it is needed. Most Kolbs
have some sort of tab, but notmany of them have the tail jackedup an inch. So
based on strong advice from many experienced Kolbers, if I can put the tail
back where it is supposed to be then I will. If I cannot, then I cannot.
I also have a rudder trim tab taped on. This has made a good improvement in yaw
trim, not having to hold aileron and rudder at all times to make it fly straight.
Once again, NONE of this was "un-controllable" or "trying to crash". Just a moderate
out-of-trim condition. If I had let go of the elevator on the first 4 flights,
the airplane would have gone nose-up and stalled within a few seconds.
If I ever get to fly a proper, known Firestar then I can have something to compare
it to. It may be that my airplane is just fine for a Kolb, and I am not calibrated
to Kolbs.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
Message 23
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
John and all
Haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, but I am only half way through...
My Firefly,first one, had to be gotten on step for minimal cruise drag..I simply
set up cruise rpms..and gently nursed the nose down just slightly...would
see an immediate pickup in rpm's and a bit more airspeed..
Flying with a buddy who also had a Firefly: I noticed that he was dragging the
tail...and as I recall, he had previously complained about fuel burn...Just
a thought...
Herb
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
Original Message
On Monday, November 5, 2018 9:55 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Got some good friends out there in addition to Bill B, but got too much on my
plate at the moment to head back to California.
>
> Sometimes a problem is invisible to many eyes for a long period of time, maybe
never being solved. Then on the other hand a person will walk up and say, "Hey!
Why is that part that way?" Bingo the problem is solved.
>
> I don't know what Bill B's airplane is up to. Maybe that HKS ain't putting out
the horses the book and seller said it should. Who knows. I do know a high mounted
pusher should not push the nose up, but down. From Bill's description he
has a very sluggish FS. Why?
>
> I don't know. ;-(
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 9:13 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>
>
> I agree totally with the logic, but the measurements and parameters I got from
Duane at Kolb are showing that the wing is on the fuselage right. The trailing
edge of the wing is set by the location of the U-joinot welded at the factory.
The leading edge is set by where the bolt/pin hole is drilled in the spar
fitting on the wing. This hole was almost exactly where Duane said the plans call
for.
>
> So w hat I am saying is that the airplane is behaving as if the incidences are
all wrong, but the incidence measurements are correct as far as I can see.
>
> If John H wants to take a vacation and come out to Los Angeles, use his know
ledge and experience to get to the bottom of all this I would certainly welcome
it... but I have a feeling he pretty much has no interest in being around Los
Angeles city. Not many Kolbers here :)
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen neilsenrm@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 11:00 AM
>
> Bill
> Having to raise the horizontal
> stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing
> being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing
> edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to
> keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail
> boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up
> with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in
> a slip for landing.
> Sorry this all worth what you paid
> for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of
> marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
> night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us
> dies.
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
> MKIIIC
> On Mon,
> Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle victorbravo@sbcglobal.net
> wrote:
> Bill Berle victorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify
> the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My
> wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a
> small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the
> correct angle because that is set at the factory when they
> weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the
> correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans)
> and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
>
> Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy
> with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel
> tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down
> towards the "normal" setting.
>
> I am not certain what the "level flight"
> measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone
> has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing
> has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
>
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
> On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsenneilsenrm@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
> kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
>
> Bill
>
> How about adjusting the wing angle
>
> of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
>
> have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer
> no
>
> matter how improbable must be the answer".
>
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
>
> MKIIIC
>
> On Mon,
>
> Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle victorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Bill Berlevictorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> What was the cruising speed you got from your
> HKS/Firestar
>
> BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>
> I have only a few possibilities left if the
>
> "solid" center section fairing does not get me
> up
>
> to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>
> 1. Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
>
> "straight" intakes like yours, to point the
>
> carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
>
> curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
>
> little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward
> speed
>
> AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
>
> front of the prop.
>
> 2. Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock
> HKS
>
> exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is
> lower
>
> on the mount plate than yours.
>
> 3. Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
>
> gearbox
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
>
>
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
>
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit
>
> entities
>
>
> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrelllcottrell1020@gmail.com
>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST
> test
>
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
>
> kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>
> I can't add much
>
> of anything to what John said, since most of my
> knowledge
>
> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
>
> is
>
> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up
> the
>
> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
>
> Anxiously waiting to
>
> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
>
> On Sun,
>
> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle victorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Bill Berlevictorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
>
> modifications since last test flight were:
>
> 1. Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
>
> 12
>
> inches under the wing.
>
> 2. Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>
> 3. Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
>
> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
>
> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
>
> drag
>
> and bad airflow into the prop)
>
> 4. Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
>
> center
>
> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
>
> end
>
> of the CG rrange.
>
> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
>
> thrust
>
> measurement.
>
> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
>
> registered
>
> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP
> at
>
> its
>
> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of
> max
>
> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
>
> inch
>
> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>
> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
>
> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
>
> the
>
> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
>
> and
>
> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
>
> little,
>
> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
>
> Firestar
>
>
> 2.
>
> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
>
> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
>
> Kolb?
>
> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
>
> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and
> 582?
>
> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate
> or
>
> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
>
> performance?
>
> The next step is to finalize the center section cover
> (I
>
> made four or five of them trying to come up with what
>
> would
>
> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
>
> and
>
> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
>
> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
>
> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>
> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
>
> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
>
> U-Fly-it)
>
> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
>
> Jack
>
> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
>
> my
>
> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C
> is
>
> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>
> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
>
> Firestar
>
> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer
> landing
>
> gear legs than Larry does.
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
>
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
>
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
>
> for-profit
>
> entities
>
> ==========
>
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>
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>
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