Today's Message Index:
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1. 09:16 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (John Hauck)
2. 11:48 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (Bill Berle)
3. 02:01 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test (John Hauck)
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
Bingo! The light bulb just went off!!!
Thanks for reminding me, Herb.
Way back when, 1985, the original Firestar kits came with extremely soft Lord Mounts.
During the early days of my Firestar I was constantly trying to learn
about and tweak my FS to improve performance and to make it a safer airplane to
accomplish long cross country flights. Normally, my FS would fly 80 mph straight
and level. One day I took off, WOT, leveled out and the FS would only fly
about 60 or so mph??? Couldn't figure out what was wrong. Slowly came back
on the power and the FS accelerated. Slowly increased power and it accelerated
right on up to 80.
During a static run up I noticed the engine twisted left and down, putting most
of the pressure on the left front Lord Mount. The thrust line was way out of
whack. Came back on the power, the engine would straighten back up again. The
Lord Mounts were too soft. Little Mike at Old Kolb Aircraft sent me a set
of harder Lord Mounts. Problem solved.
I can't remember any adverse trim problems when the offset engine problem occurred,
but when it did it was just like I was dragging an anchor. As I eased off
the power from WOT the aircraft would begin to accelerate. Then I could ease
the power on very slowly and get the aircraft to continue to accelerate to normal
speed.
Maybe Bill B needs stiffer Lord Mounts. One way to check is tie the FS down and
play with the throttle while watching what the engine does. Might surprise
you.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pfatchantz
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 11:52 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
John and all
Haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, but I am only half way through...
My Firefly,first one, had to be gotten on step for minimal cruise drag..I simply
set up cruise rpms..and gently nursed the nose down just slightly...would
see an immediate pickup in rpm's and a bit more airspeed..
Flying with a buddy who also had a Firefly: I noticed that he was dragging the
tail...and as I recall, he had previously complained about fuel burn...Just
a thought...
Herb
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
Original Message
On Monday, November 5, 2018 9:55 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Got some good friends out there in addition to Bill B, but got too much on my
plate at the moment to head back to California.
>
> Sometimes a problem is invisible to many eyes for a long period of time, maybe
never being solved. Then on the other hand a person will walk up and say, "Hey!
Why is that part that way?" Bingo the problem is solved.
>
> I don't know what Bill B's airplane is up to. Maybe that HKS ain't putting out
the horses the book and seller said it should. Who knows. I do know a high mounted
pusher should not push the nose up, but down. From Bill's description he
has a very sluggish FS. Why?
>
> I don't know. ;-(
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 9:13 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>
>
> I agree totally with the logic, but the measurements and parameters I got from
Duane at Kolb are showing that the wing is on the fuselage right. The trailing
edge of the wing is set by the location of the U-joinot welded at the factory.
The leading edge is set by where the bolt/pin hole is drilled in the spar
fitting on the wing. This hole was almost exactly where Duane said the plans call
for.
>
> So w hat I am saying is that the airplane is behaving as if the incidences are
all wrong, but the incidence measurements are correct as far as I can see.
>
> If John H wants to take a vacation and come out to Los Angeles, use his know
ledge and experience to get to the bottom of all this I would certainly welcome
it... but I have a feeling he pretty much has no interest in being around Los
Angeles city. Not many Kolbers here :)
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------!
---
>
> On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen neilsenrm@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 11:00 AM
>
> Bill
> Having to raise the horizontal
> stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing
> being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing
> edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to
> keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail
> boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up
> with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in
> a slip for landing.
> Sorry this all worth what you paid
> for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of
> marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
> night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us
> dies.
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
> MKIIIC
> On Mon,
> Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle victorbravo@sbcglobal.net
> wrote:
> Bill Berle victorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify
> the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My
> wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a
> small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the
> correct angle because that is set at the factory when they
> weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the
> correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans)
> and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.
>
> Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy
> with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel
> tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down
> towards the "normal" setting.
>
> I am not certain what the "level flight"
> measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone
> has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing
> has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
>
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
> On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsenneilsenrm@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
>
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
> kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM
>
> Bill
>
> How about adjusting the wing angle
>
> of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you
>
> have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer
> no
>
> matter how improbable must be the answer".
>
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
>
> MKIIIC
>
> On Mon,
>
> Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle victorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Bill Berlevictorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> What was the cruising speed you got from your
> HKS/Firestar
>
> BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?
>
> I have only a few possibilities left if the
>
> "solid" center section fairing does not get me
> up
>
> to 60 MPH without the fairings:
>
> 1. Modify the intake maniforlds or use the
>
> "straight" intakes like yours, to point the
>
> carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other
>
> curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a
>
> little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward
> speed
>
> AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in
>
> front of the prop.
>
> 2. Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock
> HKS
>
> exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is
> lower
>
> on the mount plate than yours.
>
> 3. Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58
>
> gearbox
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
>
>
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
>
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit
>
> entities
>
>
> On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrelllcottrell1020@gmail.com
>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST
> test
>
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
>
> kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM
>
> I can't add much
>
> of anything to what John said, since most of my
> knowledge
>
> comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add
>
> is
>
> that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up
> the
>
> drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc.
>
> Anxiously waiting to
>
> hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry
>
> On Sun,
>
> Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle victorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Bill Berlevictorbravo@sbcglobal.net
>
> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My
>
> modifications since last test flight were:
>
> 1. Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to
>
> 12
>
> inches under the wing.
>
> 2. Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.
>
> 3. Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center
>
> section so that no air could "leak" or flow
>
> upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing
>
> drag
>
> and bad airflow into the prop)
>
> 4. Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the
>
> center
>
> of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft
>
> end
>
> of the CG rrange.
>
> On this test run, we were finally able to do a static
>
> thrust
>
> measurement.
>
> At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale
>
> registered
>
> 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP
> at
>
> its
>
> redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of
> max
>
> RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65
>
> inch
>
> diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.
>
> So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit
>
> data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured
>
> the
>
> static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines
>
> and
>
> similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a
>
> little,
>
> a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a
>
> Firestar
>
>
> 2.
>
> Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what
>
> static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a
>
> Kolb?
>
> Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP
>
> class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and
> 582?
>
> How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate
> or
>
> acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff
>
> performance?
>
> The next step is to finalize the center section cover
> (I
>
> made four or five of them trying to come up with what
>
> would
>
> work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal
>
> and
>
> Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can
>
> resume my test flying, and see if this made enough
>
> difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.
>
> Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the
>
> streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /
>
> U-Fly-it)
>
> and work on all of the little drag redusing things that
>
> Jack
>
> Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get
>
> my
>
> Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C
> is
>
> getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.
>
> Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and
>
> Firestar
>
> 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer
> landing
>
> gear legs than Larry does.
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
>
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
>
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
>
> for-profit
>
> entities
>
> ==========
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Message 2
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
On Tue, 11/6/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
One day I took off, WOT, leveled out and the FS would only fly about 60 or so mph???
Couldn't figure
out what was wrong. Slowly came back on the power and the FS accelerated. Slowly
increased power and it
accelerated right on up to 80.
During a static run up I noticed the engine twisted left and down, putting most
of the pressure on the left front Lord Mount. The thrust line was way out of
whack. Came back on the power, the engine would straighten back up again. The
Lord Mounts were too soft. Little Mike at Old Kolb Aircraft sent me a set of
harder Lord Mounts.
Maybe Bill B needs stiffer Lord Mounts. One way to check is tie the FS down and
play with the throttle while watching what the engine does. Might surprise you.
-------------------------------------------------
Well, that is one test that I can do without too much of a problem, and it is a
test that can be done at exactly my desired cost... zero! So next time I have
someone who can observe this, or measure it, or photograph it, I will try to
do so.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
Message 3
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test |
You can handle that job all by yourself. After you get the tail tied, stand on
the right side of the cockpit, watch how the position of the engine reacts when
you go WOT and when you manipulate the throttle. Easy job.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-------------------------------------------------
Well, that is one test that I can do without too much of a problem, and it is a
test that can be done at exactly my desired cost... zero! So next time I have
someone who can observe this, or measure it, or photograph it, I will try to
do so.
Bill Berle
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