Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 04:34 AM - LOC (Matt Dralle)
1. 12:02 AM - HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Bill Berle)
2. 12:11 AM - HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Bill Berle)
3. 04:21 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (George Helton)
4. 07:18 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (John Hauck)
5. 09:06 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Bill Berle)
6. 09:12 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Bill Berle)
7. 09:26 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Bill Berle)
8. 09:47 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (John Hauck)
9. 11:06 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Bill Berle)
10. 11:24 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Pfatchantz)
11. 11:34 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Larry Cottrell)
12. 11:45 AM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Larry Cottrell)
13. 03:00 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (John Hauck)
14. 03:28 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Pfatchantz)
15. 04:40 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Bill Berle)
16. 04:52 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (John Hauck)
17. 04:53 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (John Hauck)
18. 05:05 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Larry Cottrell)
19. 05:06 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Bill Berle)
20. 05:36 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (George Helton)
21. 06:02 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Bill Berle)
22. 06:43 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (Rick Neilsen)
23. 06:59 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (John Hauck)
24. 07:14 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (George Helton)
25. 08:13 PM - Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes (mojavjoe)
Message 0
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Dear Listers,
Each year at the end of the List Fund Raiser, I post a message acknowledging everyone
that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its sort
of my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation
for the Lists.
Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors
(LOC)? As a number of members have pointed out over the years, the List seems
at least - if not a whole lot more - valuable as a building/flying/recreating/entertainment
tool as your typical magazine subscription!
Please take minute and assure that your name is on this year's LOC! Show others
that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is
fast and easy using your Credit card or Paypal on the Secure Web Site:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by popping a personal check in the mail to:
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c/o Matt Dralle
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I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus
far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps
these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about
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Message 1
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the HKS powered Firestar again yesterday morning. First
test flight with the completely sealed center section.
It showed a 10% improvement in "cruise" speed, going from the previous 45 MPH to
50 MPH now in level flight at 5400 RPM.
This is an improvement, but not nearly as much of an improvement as I was looking
for. The aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than Larry C's HKS Firestar in the
same (no strut fairings or gear leg fairings) configuration.
More importantly, the aircraft did NOT have anywhere near the spectacular climb
performance that the Kolb should have with 50-60HP. Although I am off the ground
in a couple of hundred feet, by the time I get to the far end of a 3800 foot
runway, I am only 250 feet above ground. From what I have learned, the Firestar
should be twice or three times that high over that distance.
So considering the cost of replacing the gearbox (which I simply cannot do at present),
I have to go back and do something I really did not want to do at all.
But I'm out of options. I am going to turn the gearbox from the "down" position
to the "up" position and install a much larger propeller. Probably going from
65 inch diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3 blade.
This will OF COURSE require me to put the stabilizer back to the original stock
position, which will make John H and others happy to hear. (Currently the front
stabilizer attach bolts are 1.125 inches above the stock fitting hole). Moving
the thrust line that far upwards will create a very strong pitch-down, so
I am now hoping that the stock stabilizer angle will be "down" far enough. I am
hoping to be able to use full pwoer on takeoff, but I will have to approach
it slowly.
In the current configuration (stabilizer raised), the tail comes up automatically
on takeoff roll, and I have to apply full rearward stick to hold it level until
the aircraft lifts off. As it lifts off and gains speed, I can relax the
stick and fly normally. Returning the stabilizer to the stock position will hopefully
provide a little more down-force on the tail from propeller blast, and
HOPEFULLY it will offset the pitch-down force form the propeller being higher
above the aircraft.
So now I have to find a propeller to borrow, and turn the gearbox around. I willr
eport on how well this did or did not work, although I do expect to see a fairly
good improvement in thrust. As you all may remember, I got 250 pounds of
static thrust, which is less than some other people (like Wakataka copied below)
measured with smaller engines.
I'm afraid that I am the one who puts the "mental" in "experimental"...
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018, 4:26 PM
"wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
I measured 290 pounds static with a
Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO prop. There was a slight amount
of tailwind that day, so I suspect that number is slightly
inflated, but I'm sure it produces at least 250 pounds. It
jumps right off the ground.
--------
There is something fascinating about
science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out
of such a trifling investment of fact.
Mark Twain
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
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Email List Wiki!
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-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 2
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the HKS powered Firestar again yesterday morning. First
test flight with the completely sealed center section.
It showed a 10% improvement in "cruise" speed, going from the previous 45 MPH to
50 MPH now in level flight at 5400 RPM.
This is an improvement, but not nearly as much of an improvement as I was looking
for. The aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than Larry C's HKS Firestar in the
same (no strut fairings or gear leg fairings) configuration.
More importantly, the aircraft did NOT have anywhere near the spectacular climb
performance that the Kolb should have with 50-60HP. Although I am off the ground
in a couple of hundred feet, by the time I get to the far end of a 3800 foot
runway, I am only 250 feet above ground. From what I have learned, the Firestar
should be twice or three times that high over that distance.
So considering the cost of replacing the gearbox (which I simply cannot do at present),
I have to go back and do something I really did not want to do at all.
But I'm out of options. I am going to turn the gearbox from the "down" position
to the "up" position and install a much larger propeller. Probably going from
65 inch diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3 blade.
This will OF COURSE require me to put the stabilizer back to the original stock
position, which will make John H and others happy to hear. (Currently the front
stabilizer attach bolts are 1.125 inches above the stock fitting hole). Moving
the thrust line that far upwards will create a very strong pitch-down, so
I am now hoping that the stock stabilizer angle will be "down" far enough. I am
hoping to be able to use full pwoer on takeoff, but I will have to approach
it slowly.
In the current configuration (stabilizer raised), the tail comes up automatically
on takeoff roll, and I have to apply full rearward stick to hold it level until
the aircraft lifts off. As it lifts off and gains speed, I can relax the
stick and fly normally. Returning the stabilizer to the stock position will hopefully
provide a little more down-force on the tail from propeller blast, and
HOPEFULLY it will offset the pitch-down force form the propeller being higher
above the aircraft.
So now I have to find a propeller to borrow, and turn the gearbox around. I willr
eport on how well this did or did not work, although I do expect to see a fairly
good improvement in thrust. As you all may remember, I got 250 pounds of
static thrust, which is less than some other people (like Wakataka copied below)
measured with smaller engines.
I'm afraid that I am the one who puts the "mental" in "experimental"...
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018, 4:26 PM
"wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
I measured 290 pounds static with a
Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO prop. There was a slight amount
of tailwind that day, so I suspect that number is slightly
inflated, but I'm sure it produces at least 250 pounds. It
jumps right off the ground.
--------
There is something fascinating about
science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out
of such a trifling investment of fact.
Mark Twain
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Hi Bill. Sounds like things are improving. Im going to ask a John H. question.
Did you do a speed check, WOT straight and level?
Your climb seems low. What are you using for your climb speed. Ive found my Firestar
that 44 to 46mph works best. 850 to 1000 fpm seems the norm. I gotten higher
figures then that, but with a nice headwind.
I would guess youll get 5 to 15 mph by adding a enclosure and wing strut fairings.
Thats been my experience. Im actually running a 40hp , 2702 Hirth with a 2:29
G50 gearbox and a 64 3 blade Powerfin. Propspeed works out to be 2400 rpm
@ 5500 rpm, which is the suggested max. rpm. I can cruise anywhere between 40
and 65 mph. WOT is around 70 to 75 mph straight and level. The wings are basically
the same so Im just giving you what Im getting out of a original Firestar.
Good luck!
George H.
Firestar
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:38 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the HKS powered Firestar again yesterday morning.
First test flight with the completely sealed center section.
>
> It showed a 10% improvement in "cruise" speed, going from the previous 45 MPH
to 50 MPH now in level flight at 5400 RPM.
>
> This is an improvement, but not nearly as much of an improvement as I was looking
for. The aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than Larry C's HKS Firestar in
the same (no strut fairings or gear leg fairings) configuration.
>
> More importantly, the aircraft did NOT have anywhere near the spectacular climb
performance that the Kolb should have with 50-60HP. Although I am off the ground
in a couple of hundred feet, by the time I get to the far end of a 3800
foot runway, I am only 250 feet above ground. From what I have learned, the Firestar
should be twice or three times that high over that distance.
>
> So considering the cost of replacing the gearbox (which I simply cannot do at
present), I have to go back and do something I really did not want to do at all.
But I'm out of options. I am going to turn the gearbox from the "down" position
to the "up" position and install a much larger propeller. Probably going
from 65 inch diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3 blade.
>
> This will OF COURSE require me to put the stabilizer back to the original stock
position, which will make John H and others happy to hear. (Currently the front
stabilizer attach bolts are 1.125 inches above the stock fitting hole). Moving
the thrust line that far upwards will create a very strong pitch-down, so
I am now hoping that the stock stabilizer angle will be "down" far enough. I
am hoping to be able to use full pwoer on takeoff, but I will have to approach
it slowly.
>
> In the current configuration (stabilizer raised), the tail comes up automatically
on takeoff roll, and I have to apply full rearward stick to hold it level
until the aircraft lifts off. As it lifts off and gains speed, I can relax the
stick and fly normally. Returning the stabilizer to the stock position will
hopefully provide a little more down-force on the tail from propeller blast, and
HOPEFULLY it will offset the pitch-down force form the propeller being higher
above the aircraft.
>
> So now I have to find a propeller to borrow, and turn the gearbox around. I willr
eport on how well this did or did not work, although I do expect to see a
fairly good improvement in thrust. As you all may remember, I got 250 pounds
of static thrust, which is less than some other people (like Wakataka copied below)
measured with smaller engines.
>
> I'm afraid that I am the one who puts the "mental" in "experimental"...
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018, 4:26 PM
>
> "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
>
> I measured 290 pounds static with a
> Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO prop. There was a slight amount
> of tailwind that day, so I suspect that number is slightly
> inflated, but I'm sure it produces at least 250 pounds. It
> jumps right off the ground.
>
> --------
> There is something fascinating about
> science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out
> of such a trifling investment of fact.
>
> Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
George H/Kolbers:
I could get the same numbers as George H with my Ultrastar powered with a 35 hp
Cuyuna ULII02, and the only streamlining was my big toes on the open rudder pedals.
I think our buddy Bill B has a sick engine. Maybe a sick engine, gear box, prop
combo. Who knows? I have no idea sitting here with my second cup of hot coffee
in front of a computer screen 2500 miles away.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
Hi Bill. Sounds like things are improving. Im going to ask a John H. question.
Did you do a speed check, WOT straight and level?
Your climb seems low. What are you using for your climb speed. Ive found my Firestar
that 44 to 46mph works best. 850 to 1000 fpm seems the norm. I gotten higher
figures then that, but with a nice headwind.
I would guess youll get 5 to 15 mph by adding a enclosure and wing strut fairings.
Thats been my experience. Im actually running a 40hp , 2702 Hirth with a 2:29
G50 gearbox and a 64 3 blade Powerfin. Propspeed works out to be 2400 rpm
@ 5500 rpm, which is the suggested max. rpm. I can cruise anywhere between 40
and 65 mph. WOT is around 70 to 75 mph straight and level. The wings are basically
the same so Im just giving you what Im getting out of a original Firestar.
Good luck!
George H.
Firestar
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:38 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the HKS powered Firestar again yesterday morning.
First test flight with the completely sealed center section.
>
> It showed a 10% improvement in "cruise" speed, going from the previous 45 MPH
to 50 MPH now in level flight at 5400 RPM.
>
> This is an improvement, but not nearly as much of an improvement as I was looking
for. The aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than Larry C's HKS Firestar in
the same (no strut fairings or gear leg fairings) configuration.
>
> More importantly, the aircraft did NOT have anywhere near the spectacular climb
performance that the Kolb should have with 50-60HP. Although I am off the ground
in a couple of hundred feet, by the time I get to the far end of a 3800
foot runway, I am only 250 feet above ground. From what I have learned, the Firestar
should be twice or three times that high over that distance.
>
> So considering the cost of replacing the gearbox (which I simply cannot do at
present), I have to go back and do something I really did not want to do at all.
But I'm out of options. I am going to turn the gearbox from the "down" position
to the "up" position and install a much larger propeller. Probably going
from 65 inch diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3 blade.
>
> This will OF COURSE require me to put the stabilizer back to the original stock
position, which will make John H and others happy to hear. (Currently the front
stabilizer attach bolts are 1.125 inches above the stock fitting hole). Moving
the thrust line that far upwards will create a very strong pitch-down, so
I am now hoping that the stock stabilizer angle will be "down" far enough. I
am hoping to be able to use full pwoer on takeoff, but I will have to approach
it slowly.
>
> In the current configuration (stabilizer raised), the tail comes up automatically
on takeoff roll, and I have to apply full rearward stick to hold it level
until the aircraft lifts off. As it lifts off and gains speed, I can relax the
stick and fly normally. Returning the stabilizer to the stock position will
hopefully provide a little more down-force on the tail from propeller blast, and
HOPEFULLY it will offset the pitch-down force form the propeller being higher
above the aircraft.
>
> So now I have to find a propeller to borrow, and turn the gearbox around. I willr
eport on how well this did or did not work, although I do expect to see a
fairly good improvement in thrust. As you all may remember, I got 250 pounds
of static thrust, which is less than some other people (like Wakataka copied below)
measured with smaller engines.
>
> I'm afraid that I am the one who puts the "mental" in "experimental"...
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018, 4:26 PM
>
> "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
>
> I measured 290 pounds static with a
> Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO prop. There was a slight amount
> of tailwind that day, so I suspect that number is slightly
> inflated, but I'm sure it produces at least 250 pounds. It
> jumps right off the ground.
>
> --------
> There is something fascinating about
> science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out
> of such a trifling investment of fact.
>
> Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
I did not do a WOT run on the flight Saturday, but did see 5850 RPM on a shallow
clomb when getting to altitude, at approx. 50-52 MPH. 5800 RPM is the maximum
contitnuous power. The HKS has a takeoff rating of 6200 RPM for five minutes.
The engine does not appear to be sick, the compression is very very high. It's
a significant effort to swing the propeller by hand through a compression stroke,
far far more difficult than on any "normal" airplane engine (Lycoming / Continental).
Can't do it with one hand, even out at the end of the propeller.
Again, the aircraft is off the ground in a few seconds, four maybe five seconds.
It's off the ground in less than 300 feet, and my aircraft is almost 90 lb.
heavier than the "brochure" weight of a Firestar, and I'm a fat SOB myself (200+)
Yesterday's flight started with about 8 gallons of fuel on board. I have not measured/marked
the new fuel tank yet, but I put in 7 gallons and had a small amount
in there form the previous engine test run.
If I had an unlimited budget of time and money I would do things a lot differently
(we all would!), but in my case I am very limited in cost at the moment.Turning
the gearbox into the up position does not cost me anything, and hopefully
I can borrow a propeller to at least try. I'm not able to just buy a prop without
knowing that it will solve the issue I have been fighting with.
I am very much aware that having the propeller up that high above the tail boom
will be something that Kolb recommends against. Bryan said that 38-39 inches
above the tailboom is the limit and he would not want to fly a Kolb if the prop
was up above 40 inches. I'm pretty sure that turning the HKS gearbox around
will put me over 40 inches.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 7:17 AM
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
George H/Kolbers:
I could get the same numbers as George
H with my Ultrastar powered with a 35 hp Cuyuna ULII02, and
the only streamlining was my big toes on the open rudder
pedals.
I think our buddy Bill B has a sick
engine. Maybe a sick engine, gear box, prop
combo. Who knows? I have no idea sitting here
with my second cup of hot coffee in front of a computer
screen 2500 miles away.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:21
AM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
FLIGHT TEST resumes
George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
Hi Bill. Sounds like things are
improving. Im going to ask a John H. question. Did you do
a speed check, WOT straight and level?
Your climb seems low. What are you
using for your climb speed. Ive found my Firestar that 44
to 46mph works best. 850 to 1000 fpm seems the norm. I
gotten higher figures then that, but with a nice headwind.
I would guess youll get 5 to 15 mph
by adding a enclosure and wing strut fairings. Thats been
my experience. Im actually running a 40hp , 2702 Hirth
with a 2:29 G50 gearbox and a 64 3 blade Powerfin.
Propspeed works out to be 2400 rpm @ 5500 rpm, which is the
suggested max. rpm. I can cruise anywhere between 40 and 65
mph. WOT is around 70 to 75 mph straight and level. The
wings are basically the same so Im just giving you what
Im getting out of a original Firestar. Good luck!
George H.
Firestar
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:38 AM, Bill
Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the HKS
powered Firestar again yesterday morning. First test flight
with the completely sealed center section.
>
> It showed a 10% improvement in
"cruise" speed, going from the previous 45 MPH to 50 MPH now
in level flight at 5400 RPM.
>
> This is an improvement, but not
nearly as much of an improvement as I was looking for. The
aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than Larry C's HKS
Firestar in the same (no strut fairings or gear leg
fairings) configuration.
>
> More importantly, the aircraft did
NOT have anywhere near the spectacular climb performance
that the Kolb should have with 50-60HP. Although I am off
the ground in a couple of hundred feet, by the time I get to
the far end of a 3800 foot runway, I am only 250 feet above
ground. From what I have learned, the Firestar should be
twice or three times that high over that distance.
>
> So considering the cost of
replacing the gearbox (which I simply cannot do at present),
I have to go back and do something I really did not want to
do at all. But I'm out of options. I am going to turn the
gearbox from the "down" position to the "up" position and
install a much larger propeller. Probably going from 65 inch
diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3 blade.
>
> This will OF COURSE require me to
put the stabilizer back to the original stock position,
which will make John H and others happy to hear. (Currently
the front stabilizer attach bolts are 1.125 inches above the
stock fitting hole). Moving the thrust line that far upwards
will create a very strong pitch-down, so I am now hoping
that the stock stabilizer angle will be "down" far enough. I
am hoping to be able to use full pwoer on takeoff, but I
will have to approach it slowly.
>
> In the current configuration
(stabilizer raised), the tail comes up automatically on
takeoff roll, and I have to apply full rearward stick to
hold it level until the aircraft lifts off. As it lifts off
and gains speed, I can relax the stick and fly normally.
Returning the stabilizer to the stock position will
hopefully provide a little more down-force on the tail from
propeller blast, and HOPEFULLY it will offset the pitch-down
force form the propeller being higher above the aircraft.
>
> So now I have to find a propeller
to borrow, and turn the gearbox around. I willr eport on how
well this did or did not work, although I do expect to see a
fairly good improvement in thrust. As you all may remember,
I got 250 pounds of static thrust, which is less than some
other people (like Wakataka copied below) measured with
smaller engines.
>
> I'm afraid that I am the one who
puts the "mental" in "experimental"...
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS /
Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018,
4:26 PM
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by:
> "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
>
> I measured 290 pounds static with
a
> Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO prop.
There was a slight amount
> of tailwind that day, so I suspect
that number is slightly
> inflated, but I'm sure it produces
at least 250 pounds. It
> jumps right off the ground.
>
> --------
> There is something fascinating
about
> science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out
> of such a trifling investment of
fact.
>
> Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE
Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST
WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution
Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 6
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
One other important question for the Kolbers... HOW HIGH can the propeller be (center
of the prop) above the top of the tailboom tube before it becomes a problem?
I know there have been Firestars with 582 and 912 engines that use larger propellers
than the "normal" 503 power. Does anyone know what the dimensions were on
those aircraft? What is the highest prop location that any of you believe can
be "tolerated" by a Firestar?
I have also ready several posts over the years by Kolbers saying that people have
frequently put Kolbs over on the nose. I certainly do NOT want to do that.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 7:17 AM
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
George H/Kolbers:
I could get the same numbers as George
H with my Ultrastar powered with a 35 hp Cuyuna ULII02, and
the only streamlining was my big toes on the open rudder
pedals.
I think our buddy Bill B has a sick
engine. Maybe a sick engine, gear box, prop
combo. Who knows? I have no idea sitting here
with my second cup of hot coffee in front of a computer
screen 2500 miles away.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:21
AM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
FLIGHT TEST resumes
George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
Hi Bill. Sounds like things are
improving. Im going to ask a John H. question. Did you do
a speed check, WOT straight and level?
Your climb seems low. What are you
using for your climb speed. Ive found my Firestar that 44
to 46mph works best. 850 to 1000 fpm seems the norm. I
gotten higher figures then that, but with a nice headwind.
I would guess youll get 5 to 15 mph
by adding a enclosure and wing strut fairings. Thats been
my experience. Im actually running a 40hp , 2702 Hirth
with a 2:29 G50 gearbox and a 64 3 blade Powerfin.
Propspeed works out to be 2400 rpm @ 5500 rpm, which is the
suggested max. rpm. I can cruise anywhere between 40 and 65
mph. WOT is around 70 to 75 mph straight and level. The
wings are basically the same so Im just giving you what
Im getting out of a original Firestar. Good luck!
George H.
Firestar
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:38 AM, Bill
Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the HKS
powered Firestar again yesterday morning. First test flight
with the completely sealed center section.
>
> It showed a 10% improvement in
"cruise" speed, going from the previous 45 MPH to 50 MPH now
in level flight at 5400 RPM.
>
> This is an improvement, but not
nearly as much of an improvement as I was looking for. The
aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than Larry C's HKS
Firestar in the same (no strut fairings or gear leg
fairings) configuration.
>
> More importantly, the aircraft did
NOT have anywhere near the spectacular climb performance
that the Kolb should have with 50-60HP. Although I am off
the ground in a couple of hundred feet, by the time I get to
the far end of a 3800 foot runway, I am only 250 feet above
ground. From what I have learned, the Firestar should be
twice or three times that high over that distance.
>
> So considering the cost of
replacing the gearbox (which I simply cannot do at present),
I have to go back and do something I really did not want to
do at all. But I'm out of options. I am going to turn the
gearbox from the "down" position to the "up" position and
install a much larger propeller. Probably going from 65 inch
diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3 blade.
>
> This will OF COURSE require me to
put the stabilizer back to the original stock position,
which will make John H and others happy to hear. (Currently
the front stabilizer attach bolts are 1.125 inches above the
stock fitting hole). Moving the thrust line that far upwards
will create a very strong pitch-down, so I am now hoping
that the stock stabilizer angle will be "down" far enough. I
am hoping to be able to use full pwoer on takeoff, but I
will have to approach it slowly.
>
> In the current configuration
(stabilizer raised), the tail comes up automatically on
takeoff roll, and I have to apply full rearward stick to
hold it level until the aircraft lifts off. As it lifts off
and gains speed, I can relax the stick and fly normally.
Returning the stabilizer to the stock position will
hopefully provide a little more down-force on the tail from
propeller blast, and HOPEFULLY it will offset the pitch-down
force form the propeller being higher above the aircraft.
>
> So now I have to find a propeller
to borrow, and turn the gearbox around. I willr eport on how
well this did or did not work, although I do expect to see a
fairly good improvement in thrust. As you all may remember,
I got 250 pounds of static thrust, which is less than some
other people (like Wakataka copied below) measured with
smaller engines.
>
> I'm afraid that I am the one who
puts the "mental" in "experimental"...
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS /
Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018,
4:26 PM
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by:
> "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
>
> I measured 290 pounds static with
a
> Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO prop.
There was a slight amount
> of tailwind that day, so I suspect
that number is slightly
> inflated, but I'm sure it produces
at least 250 pounds. It
> jumps right off the ground.
>
> --------
> There is something fascinating
about
> science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out
> of such a trifling investment of
fact.
>
> Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE
Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST
WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution
Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Just checked the HKS manual, turning the gearbox from down to up raises the prop
hub by 7 3/8".
I have a 65 inch propeller now, and the tip is just over 3/4" above the tailbooom
tube. Which means my prop hub is 33 1/4" above the tube, and if I switch the
gearbox around it will be 40 5/8".
What I do not know is whether that 40 inches mentioned by Bryan is an absolute
life/death safety limit, or whether it's "kinda getting up there", or whether
Bryan is just being overly cautious and the Kolb will fly safely with the prop
four feet above the tailboom.
I am not trying to be annoying or overly nit-picking here, but I do want to do
this safely. This is all suppposed to be fun, not death-defying.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 7:17 AM
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
George H/Kolbers:
I could get the same numbers as George
H with my Ultrastar powered with a 35 hp Cuyuna ULII02, and
the only streamlining was my big toes on the open rudder
pedals.
I think our buddy Bill B has a sick
engine. Maybe a sick engine, gear box, prop
combo. Who knows? I have no idea sitting here
with my second cup of hot coffee in front of a computer
screen 2500 miles away.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:21
AM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
FLIGHT TEST resumes
George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
Hi Bill. Sounds like things are
improving. Im going to ask a John H. question. Did you do
a speed check, WOT straight and level?
Your climb seems low. What are you
using for your climb speed. Ive found my Firestar that 44
to 46mph works best. 850 to 1000 fpm seems the norm. I
gotten higher figures then that, but with a nice headwind.
I would guess youll get 5 to 15 mph
by adding a enclosure and wing strut fairings. Thats been
my experience. Im actually running a 40hp , 2702 Hirth
with a 2:29 G50 gearbox and a 64 3 blade Powerfin.
Propspeed works out to be 2400 rpm @ 5500 rpm, which is the
suggested max. rpm. I can cruise anywhere between 40 and 65
mph. WOT is around 70 to 75 mph straight and level. The
wings are basically the same so Im just giving you what
Im getting out of a original Firestar. Good luck!
George H.
Firestar
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:38 AM, Bill
Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the HKS
powered Firestar again yesterday morning. First test flight
with the completely sealed center section.
>
> It showed a 10% improvement in
"cruise" speed, going from the previous 45 MPH to 50 MPH now
in level flight at 5400 RPM.
>
> This is an improvement, but not
nearly as much of an improvement as I was looking for. The
aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than Larry C's HKS
Firestar in the same (no strut fairings or gear leg
fairings) configuration.
>
> More importantly, the aircraft did
NOT have anywhere near the spectacular climb performance
that the Kolb should have with 50-60HP. Although I am off
the ground in a couple of hundred feet, by the time I get to
the far end of a 3800 foot runway, I am only 250 feet above
ground. From what I have learned, the Firestar should be
twice or three times that high over that distance.
>
> So considering the cost of
replacing the gearbox (which I simply cannot do at present),
I have to go back and do something I really did not want to
do at all. But I'm out of options. I am going to turn the
gearbox from the "down" position to the "up" position and
install a much larger propeller. Probably going from 65 inch
diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3 blade.
>
> This will OF COURSE require me to
put the stabilizer back to the original stock position,
which will make John H and others happy to hear. (Currently
the front stabilizer attach bolts are 1.125 inches above the
stock fitting hole). Moving the thrust line that far upwards
will create a very strong pitch-down, so I am now hoping
that the stock stabilizer angle will be "down" far enough. I
am hoping to be able to use full pwoer on takeoff, but I
will have to approach it slowly.
>
> In the current configuration
(stabilizer raised), the tail comes up automatically on
takeoff roll, and I have to apply full rearward stick to
hold it level until the aircraft lifts off. As it lifts off
and gains speed, I can relax the stick and fly normally.
Returning the stabilizer to the stock position will
hopefully provide a little more down-force on the tail from
propeller blast, and HOPEFULLY it will offset the pitch-down
force form the propeller being higher above the aircraft.
>
> So now I have to find a propeller
to borrow, and turn the gearbox around. I willr eport on how
well this did or did not work, although I do expect to see a
fairly good improvement in thrust. As you all may remember,
I got 250 pounds of static thrust, which is less than some
other people (like Wakataka copied below) measured with
smaller engines.
>
> I'm afraid that I am the one who
puts the "mental" in "experimental"...
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS /
Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018,
4:26 PM
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by:
> "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
>
> I measured 290 pounds static with
a
> Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO prop.
There was a slight amount
> of tailwind that day, so I suspect
that number is slightly
> inflated, but I'm sure it produces
at least 250 pounds. It
> jumps right off the ground.
>
> --------
> There is something fascinating
about
> science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out
> of such a trifling investment of
fact.
>
> Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE
Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST
WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution
Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Maybe we have a failure to communicate. That happens through email.
If max continuous rpm is 5800 rpm, then that is what you want to see at WOT straight
and level flight. Got to hold the throttle wide open until the aircraft
is flying as fast as it will go straight and level. If it is climbing at 5850
rpm it is under pitched and will turn higher in level flight WOT. You know,
like running around in 2 gear with a 3 speed transmission. Normal climb rpm
WOT will be a couple hundred rpm lower that WOT rpm when in straight and level
flight. 6200 rpm for 5 min is like "military power". Forget about that unless
you have an in flight adjustable prop.
If Bryan Melborn gave you a max limit for thrust line, I'd adhere to that. The
higher the thrust line the more power it will absorb to overcome pitch down.
With a big boy like you it will take even more power. How much? I don't know,
but it will rob power as the thrust line is raised.
My recommendation is:
-Make sure engine is putting out rated power/hp.
-Make sure the aircraft is rigged correctly.
-Stop what you are doing and pitch the prop correctly through flight test - straight
and level WOT bump 5800 rpm.
If the above doesn't work, sell or burn the aircraft.
Like I said in a previous email, my fully open 35hp Ultrastar with bare fuselage
would fly 75 mph, climb like a home sick angel, and get off the ground in a
second with a 180 lb pilot and 7.75 gal of fuel.
I've been lucky enough to fly many different Kolb aircraft over the last 35 years
and I've never flown one that performed as you describe yours flies. Makes
ya wonder doesn't it.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 11:05 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
I did not do a WOT run on the flight Saturday, but did see 5850 RPM on a shallow
clomb when getting to altitude, at approx. 50-52 MPH. 5800 RPM is the maximum
contitnuous power. The HKS has a takeoff rating of 6200 RPM for five minutes.
The engine does not appear to be sick, the compression is very very high. It's
a significant effort to swing the propeller by hand through a compression stroke,
far far more difficult than on any "normal" airplane engine (Lycoming / Continental).
Can't do it with one hand, even out at the end of the propeller.
Again, the aircraft is off the ground in a few seconds, four maybe five seconds.
It's off the ground in less than 300 feet, and my aircraft is almost 90 lb.
heavier than the "brochure" weight of a Firestar, and I'm a fat SOB myself (200+)
Yesterday's flight started with about 8 gallons of fuel on board. I have not measured/marked
the new fuel tank yet, but I put in 7 gallons and had a small amount
in there form the previous engine test run.
If I had an unlimited budget of time and money I would do things a lot differently
(we all would!), but in my case I am very limited in cost at the moment.Turning
the gearbox into the up position does not cost me anything, and hopefully
I can borrow a propeller to at least try. I'm not able to just buy a prop without
knowing that it will solve the issue I have been fighting with.
I am very much aware that having the propeller up that high above the tail boom
will be something that Kolb recommends against. Bryan said that 38-39 inches
above the tailboom is the limit and he would not want to fly a Kolb if the prop
was up above 40 inches. I'm pretty sure that turning the HKS gearbox around
will put me over 40 inches.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 7:17 AM
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
George H/Kolbers:
I could get the same numbers as George
H with my Ultrastar powered with a 35 hp Cuyuna ULII02, and
the only streamlining was my big toes on the open rudder
pedals.
I think our buddy Bill B has a sick
engine. Maybe a sick engine, gear box, prop
combo. Who knows? I have no idea sitting here
with my second cup of hot coffee in front of a computer
screen 2500 miles away.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:21
AM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
FLIGHT TEST resumes
George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
Hi Bill. Sounds like things are
improving. Im going to ask a John H. question. Did you do
a speed check, WOT straight and level?
Your climb seems low. What are you
using for your climb speed. Ive found my Firestar that 44
to 46mph works best. 850 to 1000 fpm seems the norm. I
gotten higher figures then that, but with a nice headwind.
I would guess youll get 5 to 15 mph
by adding a enclosure and wing strut fairings. Thats been
my experience. Im actually running a 40hp , 2702 Hirth
with a 2:29 G50 gearbox and a 64 3 blade Powerfin.
Propspeed works out to be 2400 rpm @ 5500 rpm, which is the
suggested max. rpm. I can cruise anywhere between 40 and 65
mph. WOT is around 70 to 75 mph straight and level. The
wings are basically the same so Im just giving you what
Im getting out of a original Firestar. Good luck!
George H.
Firestar
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:38 AM, Bill
Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the HKS
powered Firestar again yesterday morning. First test flight
with the completely sealed center section.
>
> It showed a 10% improvement in
"cruise" speed, going from the previous 45 MPH to 50 MPH now
in level flight at 5400 RPM.
>
> This is an improvement, but not
nearly as much of an improvement as I was looking for. The
aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than Larry C's HKS
Firestar in the same (no strut fairings or gear leg
fairings) configuration.
>
> More importantly, the aircraft did
NOT have anywhere near the spectacular climb performance
that the Kolb should have with 50-60HP. Although I am off
the ground in a couple of hundred feet, by the time I get to
the far end of a 3800 foot runway, I am only 250 feet above
ground. From what I have learned, the Firestar should be
twice or three times that high over that distance.
>
> So considering the cost of
replacing the gearbox (which I simply cannot do at present),
I have to go back and do something I really did not want to
do at all. But I'm out of options. I am going to turn the
gearbox from the "down" position to the "up" position and
install a much larger propeller. Probably going from 65 inch
diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3 blade.
>
> This will OF COURSE require me to
put the stabilizer back to the original stock position,
which will make John H and others happy to hear. (Currently
the front stabilizer attach bolts are 1.125 inches above the
stock fitting hole). Moving the thrust line that far upwards
will create a very strong pitch-down, so I am now hoping
that the stock stabilizer angle will be "down" far enough. I
am hoping to be able to use full pwoer on takeoff, but I
will have to approach it slowly.
>
> In the current configuration
(stabilizer raised), the tail comes up automatically on
takeoff roll, and I have to apply full rearward stick to
hold it level until the aircraft lifts off. As it lifts off
and gains speed, I can relax the stick and fly normally.
Returning the stabilizer to the stock position will
hopefully provide a little more down-force on the tail from
propeller blast, and HOPEFULLY it will offset the pitch-down
force form the propeller being higher above the aircraft.
>
> So now I have to find a propeller
to borrow, and turn the gearbox around. I willr eport on how
well this did or did not work, although I do expect to see a
fairly good improvement in thrust. As you all may remember,
I got 250 pounds of static thrust, which is less than some
other people (like Wakataka copied below) measured with
smaller engines.
>
> I'm afraid that I am the one who
puts the "mental" in "experimental"...
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS /
Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018,
4:26 PM
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by:
> "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
>
> I measured 290 pounds static with
a
> Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO prop.
There was a slight amount
> of tailwind that day, so I suspect
that number is slightly
> inflated, but I'm sure it produces
at least 250 pounds. It
> jumps right off the ground.
>
> --------
> There is something fascinating
about
> science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out
> of such a trifling investment of
fact.
>
> Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE
Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST
WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution
Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 9
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Well, selling or burning it has occurred to me more than once :)
The Firestar folds down to a size that fits in the narrow space I have for it.
I cannot store an Airbike, Quicksilver, Kitfox, Avid, or Zenair 701 in this small
space. That's why I went looking for a Kolb in the firsty place. So the Kolb
and I are stuck with each other for now. I also don't like giving up on a project
and failing to succeed.
The flying characteristics of this particular Firestar do not support the idea
of an aircraft that is bent, twisted, poorly built, etc. Fortunately I have owned
enough airplanes to be able to spot somehting that was not built well, and
I have looked at this one enough to know it is not twisted, kinked, etc. The
fabric is reasonably tight, similar to the Taylorcrafts, Cubs, etc. The fabric
is riveted to the ribs and is not bubblling away from the airfoil surface. The
tail is on straight, or very very nearly straight. There are no doublers, scab
patches, fish-mouth repairs, etc. on the steel cage.
The bottom of the wing is about 3-4 degrees to the horizon in level flight. Very
similar or equal to the many photos I have researched and seen of Kolbs flying.
The control response is normal. Elevator and rudder work correctly, ailerons work
correctly but are slower than the elevator and rudder. This matches everything
I have learned and read about Kolbs.
When I come in to land, the aircraft behaves normally when I reduce the power.
It does NOT drop like a brick with the power reduced. There is a definite glide,
and it is very controllable, the only difference is that the speed bleeds off
faster than the Taylorcraft or Cub or Cessna. Not as much time between pre-flare
"roundout" and touchdown. Again this is all 100% consistent with what Kolbers
and other ultralight people have explained to me as being normal for this
type of aircraft. So if this particular Kolb was "Wrong", twisted, bent, rigged
wrong, etc. then I suspect it would not fly as well as this one does.
Anyway, I apologize if I created abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing to
the Kolbers. I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller pitch
and see if that makes any significant difference. If that doesn't work I will
flip the gearbox and borrow a larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't work
THEN I may think about burning it...
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 9:46 AM
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Maybe we have a failure to
communicate. That happens through email.
If max continuous rpm is 5800 rpm, then
that is what you want to see at WOT straight and level
flight. Got to hold the throttle wide open until the
aircraft is flying as fast as it will go straight and
level. If it is climbing at 5850 rpm it is under
pitched and will turn higher in level flight WOT. You
know, like running around in 2 gear with a 3 speed
transmission. Normal climb rpm WOT will be a couple
hundred rpm lower that WOT rpm when in straight and level
flight. 6200 rpm for 5 min is like "military
power". Forget about that unless you have an in flight
adjustable prop.
If Bryan Melborn gave you a max limit
for thrust line, I'd adhere to that. The higher the
thrust line the more power it will absorb to overcome pitch
down. With a big boy like you it will take even more
power. How much? I don't know, but it will rob
power as the thrust line is raised.
My recommendation is:
-Make sure engine is putting out rated
power/hp.
-Make sure the aircraft is rigged
correctly.
-Stop what you are doing and pitch the
prop correctly through flight test - straight and level WOT
bump 5800 rpm.
If the above doesn't work, sell or burn
the aircraft.
Like I said in a previous email, my
fully open 35hp Ultrastar with bare fuselage would fly 75
mph, climb like a home sick angel, and get off the ground in
a second with a 180 lb pilot and 7.75 gal of fuel.
I've been lucky enough to fly many
different Kolb aircraft over the last 35 years and I've
never flown one that performed as you describe yours
flies. Makes ya wonder doesn't it.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 11:05
AM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
FLIGHT TEST resumes
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
I did not do a WOT run on the flight
Saturday, but did see 5850 RPM on a shallow clomb when
getting to altitude, at approx. 50-52 MPH. 5800 RPM is the
maximum contitnuous power. The HKS has a takeoff rating of
6200 RPM for five minutes.
The engine does not appear to be sick,
the compression is very very high. It's a significant effort
to swing the propeller by hand through a compression stroke,
far far more difficult than on any "normal" airplane engine
(Lycoming / Continental). Can't do it with one hand, even
out at the end of the propeller.
Again, the aircraft is off the ground
in a few seconds, four maybe five seconds. It's off the
ground in less than 300 feet, and my aircraft is almost 90
lb. heavier than the "brochure" weight of a Firestar, and
I'm a fat SOB myself (200+)
Yesterday's flight started with about 8
gallons of fuel on board. I have not measured/marked the new
fuel tank yet, but I put in 7 gallons and had a small amount
in there form the previous engine test run.
If I had an unlimited budget of time
and money I would do things a lot differently (we all
would!), but in my case I am very limited in cost at the
moment.Turning the gearbox into the up position does not
cost me anything, and hopefully I can borrow a propeller to
at least try. I'm not able to just buy a prop without
knowing that it will solve the issue I have been fighting
with.
I am very much aware that having the
propeller up that high above the tail boom will be something
that Kolb recommends against. Bryan said that 38-39 inches
above the tailboom is the limit and he would not want to fly
a Kolb if the prop was up above 40 inches. I'm pretty sure
that turning the HKS gearbox around will put me over 40
inches.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety
& performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 7:17
AM
"John
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
George H/Kolbers:
I could get the same numbers as
George
H with my Ultrastar powered with a 35
hp Cuyuna ULII02, and
the only streamlining was my big toes
on the open rudder
pedals.
I think our buddy Bill B has a sick
engine. Maybe a sick engine,
gear box, prop
combo. Who knows? I have
no idea sitting here
with my second cup of hot coffee in
front of a computer
screen 2500 miles away.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:21
AM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS /
Firestar
FLIGHT TEST resumes
George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
Hi Bill. Sounds like things are
improving. Im going to ask a John
H. question. Did you do
a speed check, WOT straight and
level?
Your climb seems low. What are you
using for your climb speed. Ive
found my Firestar that 44
to 46mph works best. 850 to 1000 fpm
seems the norm. I
gotten higher figures then that, but
with a nice headwind.
I would guess youll get 5 to 15
mph
by adding a enclosure and wing strut
fairings. Thats been
my experience. Im actually running
a 40hp , 2702 Hirth
with a 2:29 G50 gearbox and a 64 3
blade Powerfin.
Propspeed works out to be 2400 rpm @
5500 rpm, which is the
suggested max. rpm. I can cruise
anywhere between 40 and 65
mph. WOT is around 70 to 75 mph
straight and level. The
wings are basically the same so Im
just giving you what
Im getting out of a original
Firestar. Good luck!
George H.
Firestar
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:38 AM,
Bill
Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the
HKS
powered Firestar again yesterday
morning. First test flight
with the completely sealed center
section.
>
> It showed a 10% improvement in
"cruise" speed, going from the
previous 45 MPH to 50 MPH now
in level flight at 5400 RPM.
>
> This is an improvement, but not
nearly as much of an improvement as I
was looking for. The
aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than
Larry C's HKS
Firestar in the same (no strut
fairings or gear leg
fairings) configuration.
>
> More importantly, the aircraft
did
NOT have anywhere near the spectacular
climb performance
that the Kolb should have with
50-60HP. Although I am off
the ground in a couple of hundred
feet, by the time I get to
the far end of a 3800 foot runway, I
am only 250 feet above
ground. From what I have learned, the
Firestar should be
twice or three times that high over
that distance.
>
> So considering the cost of
replacing the gearbox (which I simply
cannot do at present),
I have to go back and do something I
really did not want to
do at all. But I'm out of options. I
am going to turn the
gearbox from the "down" position to
the "up" position and
install a much larger propeller.
Probably going from 65 inch
diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3
blade.
>
> This will OF COURSE require me
to
put the stabilizer back to the
original stock position,
which will make John H and others
happy to hear. (Currently
the front stabilizer attach bolts are
1.125 inches above the
stock fitting hole). Moving the thrust
line that far upwards
will create a very strong pitch-down,
so I am now hoping
that the stock stabilizer angle will
be "down" far enough. I
am hoping to be able to use full pwoer
on takeoff, but I
will have to approach it slowly.
>
> In the current configuration
(stabilizer raised), the tail comes up
automatically on
takeoff roll, and I have to apply full
rearward stick to
hold it level until the aircraft lifts
off. As it lifts off
and gains speed, I can relax the stick
and fly normally.
Returning the stabilizer to the stock
position will
hopefully provide a little more
down-force on the tail from
propeller blast, and HOPEFULLY it will
offset the pitch-down
force form the propeller being higher
above the aircraft.
>
> So now I have to find a
propeller
to borrow, and turn the gearbox
around. I willr eport on how
well this did or did not work,
although I do expect to see a
fairly good improvement in thrust. As
you all may remember,
I got 250 pounds of static thrust,
which is less than some
other people (like Wakataka copied
below) measured with
smaller engines.
>
> I'm afraid that I am the one who
puts the "mental" in
"experimental"...
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
safety & performance upgrade for
light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning
proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS /
Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018,
4:26 PM
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by:
> "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
>
> I measured 290 pounds static
with
a
> Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO
prop.
There was a slight amount
> of tailwind that day, so I
suspect
that number is slightly
> inflated, but I'm sure it
produces
at least 250 pounds. It
> jumps right off the ground.
>
> --------
> There is something fascinating
about
> science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out
> of such a trifling investment of
fact.
>
> Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE
Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS
LIST
WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution
Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB
FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST
WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web
Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 10
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Bill
Been off of the list a while...and likely every suggestion under the sun has
been offered....Mine is to simply have someone take some pics of you in flight...post
them here....
By the way..when taking off...you should feel as if the nose is getting ready
to take a divit...Herb
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
Original Message
On Monday, November 19, 2018 1:05 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Well, selling or burning it has occurred to me more than once :)
>
> The Firestar folds down to a size that fits in the narrow space I have for it.
I cannot store an Airbike, Quicksilver, Kitfox, Avid, or Zenair 701 in this
small space. That's why I went looking for a Kolb in the firsty place. So the
Kolb and I are stuck with each other for now. I also don't like giving up on a
project and failing to succeed.
>
> The flying characteristics of this particular Firestar do not support the idea
of an aircraft that is bent, twisted, poorly built, etc. Fortunately I have
owned enough airplanes to be able to spot somehting that was not built well, and
I have looked at this one enough to know it is not twisted, kinked, etc. The
fabric is reasonably tight, similar to the Taylorcrafts, Cubs, etc. The fabric
is riveted to the ribs and is not bubblling away from the airfoil surface.
The tail is on straight, or very very nearly straight. There are no doublers,
scab patches, fish-mouth repairs, etc. on the steel cage.
>
> The bottom of the wing is about 3-4 degrees to the horizon in level flight. Very
similar or equal to the many photos I have researched and seen of Kolbs flying.
>
> The control response is normal. Elevator and rudder work correctly, ailerons
work correctly but are slower than the elevator and rudder. This matches everything
I have learned and read about Kolbs.
>
> When I come in to land, the aircraft behaves normally when I reduce the power.
It does NOT drop like a brick with the power reduced. There is a definite glide,
and it is very controllable, the only difference is that the speed bleeds
off faster than the Taylorcraft or Cub or Cessna. Not as much time between pre-flare
"roundout" and touchdown. Again this is all 100% consistent with what
Kolbers and other ultralight people have explained to me as being normal for this
type of aircraft. So if this particular Kolb was "Wrong", twisted, bent, rigged
wrong, etc. then I suspect it would not fly as well as this one does.
>
> Anyway, I apologize if I created abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing
to the Kolbers. I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller pitch
and see if that makes any significant difference. If that doesn't work I will
flip the gearbox and borrow a larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't
work THEN I may think about burning it...
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
>
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
I just checked the height of my prop and it is 33 1/4 from the tail boom.
Since I have longer legs on mine it is not easy to tip over on its nose,
but prior to the longer legs I have accomplished that ignominious feat at
least twice, maybe three times. Not fun, do not recommend it. I personally
think you should not get into a hurry to change the gear box around.
I have a few questions however. All the speeds that I relate as coming from
my plane are those shown over the ground by GPS. I do not trust anything
else, and it is the only thing that I feel can accurately portray the
actual speed of the plane. I have by tweaking the angle of the pitot tube
gotten my ASI to pretty closely match what the gps reads. In my video's the
speeds seem to be higher than reality. ( just my opinion)
I also have my prop set to a pitch that will allow me to climb at max rpm
of 6100. The climb difference between 5800 and 6100 is quite noticeable. I
also rarely see more than a 350 FPM climb rate, mostly less. In fact I have
never seen the climb rate claimed by those of you who have very light
firestars that are operating at or nearer sea level than I do. When I am
climbing out, I am bumping redline - 6100, always! When I get to where I
want to be or pass the two minute mark, I throttle back to cruise - 5430.
The engine seems to like it and I will be turning around 62 - 64 MPH per
the GPS. I have a trim tab on the elevator that keeps me level at 5430-
hands off ( for a while) I check my GPS to see what my climb rate is. If I
am close to level flight my speed will be around 62 MPH. It doesn't take
much climb to slow that speed by a lot. If I want to climb, I increase the
throttle, and leave the stick in neutral position. For instance I wanted to
clear the Steen's Mtn, 39 miles away. A climb of 6000 feet. At 5800 with
the stick neutral it took almost 38 miles to achieve that. However I did it
at 58 MPH.
I have flown my plane with a passenger that put me up to the Max gross, and
probably over by as much as 60 pounds. It will fly, but it takes a long
time to get up to speed, and take off. The climb is anemic and it handles a
lot like a C 150. I always feel as though I am riding a knife edge when I
am at gross. When I first got the plane it weighed 275 empty. Now I am
running about 410. It used to jump off the ground, sometimes before I was
ready. Now it doesn't. My speed with a 503 loaded for a trip to Texas, was
a max- Throttle set to 6200, of 60 MPH. Most times slower.
All of this was without any streamlining. I added streamlining to the
struts, gained about three MPH, streamlined the gear legs, added another
three.
My point is that I think you are where you should be considering your
weight. Lets face it the more weight you put on it the more doggy its going
to be. It was intended to be an ultralight, or to fit in that category.
Yeah, I think you would be a lot better off with a different gear box.
However your main problems is that it is so heavy. I believe you can
improve the speed with some stream lining. I would also suggest you try the
elevator back in its original position just for grins, and to see if you
actually need it jacked up in the air.
I think you are about where you should be. Try cleaning it up a bit,
lighten up on the pitch till you can hit 6100 wot on climb out. you need to
remember that the competition you have for your plane is within the
limitations of your plane. If its heavy, it will fly badly compared to a
lightly loaded one. Your best bet is to do the things that you can with
cleaning it up. If you can shed any weight off the plane do so, Other wise
like me you will just have to live with what Nature has saddled you with.
Keep feelers out for the right gear box, or perhaps a lot lighter plane.
Larry
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 10:10 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> I did not do a WOT run on the flight Saturday, but did see 5850 RPM on a
> shallow clomb when getting to altitude, at approx. 50-52 MPH. 5800 RPM is
> the maximum contitnuous power. The HKS has a takeoff rating of 6200 RPM f
or
> five minutes.
>
> The engine does not appear to be sick, the compression is very very high.
> It's a significant effort to swing the propeller by hand through a
> compression stroke, far far more difficult than on any "normal" airplane
> engine (Lycoming / Continental). Can't do it with one hand, even out at t
he
> end of the propeller.
>
> Again, the aircraft is off the ground in a few seconds, four maybe five
> seconds. It's off the ground in less than 300 feet, and my aircraft is
> almost 90 lb. heavier than the "brochure" weight of a Firestar, and I'm a
> fat SOB myself (200+)
>
> Yesterday's flight started with about 8 gallons of fuel on board. I have
> not measured/marked the new fuel tank yet, but I put in 7 gallons and had
a
> small amount in there form the previous engine test run.
>
> If I had an unlimited budget of time and money I would do things a lot
> differently (we all would!), but in my case I am very limited in cost at
> the moment.Turning the gearbox into the up position does not cost me
> anything, and hopefully I can borrow a propeller to at least try. I'm not
> able to just buy a prop without knowing that it will solve the issue I ha
ve
> been fighting with.
>
> I am very much aware that having the propeller up that high above the tai
l
> boom will be something that Kolb recommends against. Bryan said that 38-3
9
> inches above the tailboom is the limit and he would not want to fly a Kol
b
> if the prop was up above 40 inches. I'm pretty sure that turning the HKS
> gearbox around will put me over 40 inches.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 7:17 AM
>
> Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> George H/Kolbers:
>
> I could get the same numbers as George
> H with my Ultrastar powered with a 35 hp Cuyuna ULII02, and
> the only streamlining was my big toes on the open rudder
> pedals.
>
> I think our buddy Bill B has a sick
> engine. Maybe a sick engine, gear box, prop
> combo. Who knows? I have no idea sitting here
> with my second cup of hot coffee in front of a computer
> screen 2500 miles away.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of George Helton
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:21
> AM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
> FLIGHT TEST resumes
>
> George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
> Hi Bill. Sounds like things are
> improving. I=99m going to ask a John H. question. Did you do
> a speed check, WOT straight and level?
> Your climb seems low. What are you
> using for your climb speed. I=99ve found my Firestar that 44
> to 46mph works best. 850 to 1000 fpm seems the norm. I
> gotten higher figures then that, but with a nice headwind.
> I would guess you=99ll get 5 to 15 mph
> by adding a enclosure and wing strut fairings. That=99s been
> my experience. I=99m actually running a 40hp , 2702 Hirth
> with a 2:29 G50 gearbox and a 64=9D 3 blade Powerfin.
> Propspeed works out to be 2400 rpm @ 5500 rpm, which is the
> suggested max. rpm. I can cruise anywhere between 40 and 65
> mph. WOT is around 70 to 75 mph straight and level. The
> wings are basically the same so I=99m just giving you what
> I=99m getting out of a original Firestar. Good luck!
> George H.
> Firestar
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton@gmail.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:38 AM, Bill
> Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the HKS
> powered Firestar again yesterday morning. First test flight
> with the completely sealed center section.
> >
> > It showed a 10% improvement in
> "cruise" speed, going from the previous 45 MPH to 50 MPH now
> in level flight at 5400 RPM.
> >
> > This is an improvement, but not
> nearly as much of an improvement as I was looking for. The
> aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than Larry C's HKS
> Firestar in the same (no strut fairings or gear leg
> fairings) configuration.
> >
> > More importantly, the aircraft did
> NOT have anywhere near the spectacular climb performance
> that the Kolb should have with 50-60HP. Although I am off
> the ground in a couple of hundred feet, by the time I get to
> the far end of a 3800 foot runway, I am only 250 feet above
> ground. From what I have learned, the Firestar should be
> twice or three times that high over that distance.
> >
> > So considering the cost of
> replacing the gearbox (which I simply cannot do at present),
> I have to go back and do something I really did not want to
> do at all. But I'm out of options. I am going to turn the
> gearbox from the "down" position to the "up" position and
> install a much larger propeller. Probably going from 65 inch
> diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3 blade.
> >
> > This will OF COURSE require me to
> put the stabilizer back to the original stock position,
> which will make John H and others happy to hear. (Currently
> the front stabilizer attach bolts are 1.125 inches above the
> stock fitting hole). Moving the thrust line that far upwards
> will create a very strong pitch-down, so I am now hoping
> that the stock stabilizer angle will be "down" far enough. I
> am hoping to be able to use full pwoer on takeoff, but I
> will have to approach it slowly.
> >
> > In the current configuration
> (stabilizer raised), the tail comes up automatically on
> takeoff roll, and I have to apply full rearward stick to
> hold it level until the aircraft lifts off. As it lifts off
> and gains speed, I can relax the stick and fly normally.
> Returning the stabilizer to the stock position will
> hopefully provide a little more down-force on the tail from
> propeller blast, and HOPEFULLY it will offset the pitch-down
> force form the propeller being higher above the aircraft.
> >
> > So now I have to find a propeller
> to borrow, and turn the gearbox around. I willr eport on how
> well this did or did not work, although I do expect to see a
> fairly good improvement in thrust. As you all may remember,
> I got 250 pounds of static thrust, which is less than some
> other people (like Wakataka copied below) measured with
> smaller engines.
> >
> > I'm afraid that I am the one who
> puts the "mental" in "experimental"...
> >
> > Bill Berle
> > www.ezflaphandle.com -
> safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> > www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS /
> Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> > To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018,
> 4:26 PM
> >
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
> by:
> > "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
> >
> > I measured 290 pounds static with
> a
> > Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO prop.
> There was a slight amount
> > of tailwind that day, so I suspect
> that number is slightly
> > inflated, but I'm sure it produces
> at least 250 pounds. It
> > jumps right off the ground.
> >
> > --------
> > There is something fascinating
> about
> > science. One gets such wholesale
> returns of conjecture out
> > of such a trifling investment of
> fact.
> >
> > Mark Twain
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Support Your Lists This Month --
> > (And Get Some AWESOME FREE
> Gifts!)
> > Fund Raiser. Click on
> > to find out more about
> > Incentive Gifts provided
> > www.mypilotstore.com
> > support!
> >
>
> > -Matt Dralle, List
> Admin.
> > The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> > Navigator to browse
> > List Un/Subscription,
> > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> > - MATRONICS
> WEB FORUMS -
> > via the Web Forums!
> > - NEW MATRONICS LIST
> WIKI -
> > Email List Wiki!
> > - List Contribution
> Web Site -
> > support!
> >
>
> > -Matt Dralle, List
> Admin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
I just checked the height of my prop and it is 33 1/4 from the tail boom.
Since I have longer legs on mine it is not easy to tip over on its nose,
but prior to the longer legs I have accomplished that ignominious feat at
least twice, maybe three times. Not fun, do not recommend it. I personally
think you should not get into a hurry to change the gear box around.
I have a few questions however. All the speeds that I relate as coming from
my plane are those shown over the ground by GPS. I do not trust anything
else, and it is the only thing that I feel can accurately portray the
actual speed of the plane. I have by tweaking the angle of the pitot tube
gotten my ASI to pretty closely match what the gps reads. In my video's the
speeds seem to be higher than reality. ( just my opinion)
I also have my prop set to a pitch that will allow me to climb at max rpm
of 6100. The climb difference between 5800 and 6100 is quite noticeable. I
also rarely see more than a 350 FPM climb rate, mostly less. In fact I have
never seen the climb rate claimed by those of you who have very light
firestars that are operating at or nearer sea level than I do. When I am
climbing out, I am bumping redline - 6100, always! When I get to where I
want to be or pass the two minute mark, I throttle back to cruise - 5430.
The engine seems to like it and I will be turning around 62 - 64 MPH per
the GPS. I have a trim tab on the elevator that keeps me level at 5430-
hands off ( for a while) I check my GPS to see what my climb rate is. If I
am close to level flight my speed will be around 62 MPH. It doesn't take
much climb to slow that speed by a lot. If I want to climb, I increase the
throttle, and leave the stick in neutral position. For instance I wanted to
clear the Steen's Mtn, 39 miles away. A climb of 6000 feet. At 5800 with
the stick neutral it took almost 38 miles to achieve that. However I did it
at 58 MPH.
I have flown my plane with a passenger that put me up to the Max gross, and
probably over by as much as 60 pounds. It will fly, but it takes a long
time to get up to speed, and take off. The climb is anemic and it handles a
lot like a C 150. I always feel as though I am riding a knife edge when I
am at gross. When I first got the plane it weighed 275 empty. Now I am
running about 410. It used to jump off the ground, sometimes before I was
ready. Now it doesn't. My speed with a 503 loaded for a trip to Texas, was
a max- Throttle set to 6200, of 60 MPH. Most times slower.
All of this was without any streamlining. I added streamlining to the
struts, gained about three MPH, streamlined the gear legs, added another
three.
My point is that I think you are where you should be considering your
weight. Lets face it the more weight you put on it the more doggy its going
to be. It was intended to be an ultralight, or to fit in that category.
Yeah, I think you would be a lot better off with a different gear box.
However your main problems is that it is so heavy. I believe you can
improve the speed with some stream lining. I would also suggest you try the
elevator back in its original position just for grins, and to see if you
actually need it jacked up in the air.
I think you are about where you should be. Try cleaning it up a bit,
lighten up on the pitch till you can hit 6100 wot on climb out. you need to
remember that the competition you have for your plane is within the
limitations of your plane. If its heavy, it will fly badly compared to a
lightly loaded one. Your best bet is to do the things that you can with
cleaning it up. If you can shed any weight off the plane do so, Other wise
like me you will just have to live with what Nature has saddled you with.
Keep feelers out for the right gear box, or perhaps a lot lighter plane
Larry
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 12:10 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> Well, selling or burning it has occurred to me more than once :)
>
> The Firestar folds down to a size that fits in the narrow space I have fo
r
> it. I cannot store an Airbike, Quicksilver, Kitfox, Avid, or Zenair 701 i
n
> this small space. That's why I went looking for a Kolb in the firsty plac
e.
> So the Kolb and I are stuck with each other for now. I also don't like
> giving up on a project and failing to succeed.
>
> The flying characteristics of this particular Firestar do not support the
> idea of an aircraft that is bent, twisted, poorly built, etc. Fortunately
I
> have owned enough airplanes to be able to spot somehting that was not bui
lt
> well, and I have looked at this one enough to know it is not twisted,
> kinked, etc. The fabric is reasonably tight, similar to the Taylorcrafts,
> Cubs, etc. The fabric is riveted to the ribs and is not bubblling away fr
om
> the airfoil surface. The tail is on straight, or very very nearly straigh
t.
> There are no doublers, scab patches, fish-mouth repairs, etc. on the stee
l
> cage.
>
> The bottom of the wing is about 3-4 degrees to the horizon in level
> flight. Very similar or equal to the many photos I have researched and se
en
> of Kolbs flying.
>
> The control response is normal. Elevator and rudder work correctly,
> ailerons work correctly but are slower than the elevator and rudder. This
> matches everything I have learned and read about Kolbs.
>
> When I come in to land, the aircraft behaves normally when I reduce the
> power. It does NOT drop like a brick with the power reduced. There is a
> definite glide, and it is very controllable, the only difference is that
> the speed bleeds off faster than the Taylorcraft or Cub or Cessna. Not as
> much time between pre-flare "roundout" and touchdown. Again this is all
> 100% consistent with what Kolbers and other ultralight people have
> explained to me as being normal for this type of aircraft. So if this
> particular Kolb was "Wrong", twisted, bent, rigged wrong, etc. then I
> suspect it would not fly as well as this one does.
>
> Anyway, I apologize if I created abig mystery that is annoying or
> perplexing to the Kolbers. I'm going to try one more flight with increase
d
> propeller pitch and see if that makes any significant difference. If that
> doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a larger propeller and tr
y
> that. If that doesn't work THEN I may think about burning it...
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 9:46 AM
>
> Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Maybe we have a failure to
> communicate. That happens through email.
>
> If max continuous rpm is 5800 rpm, then
> that is what you want to see at WOT straight and level
> flight. Got to hold the throttle wide open until the
> aircraft is flying as fast as it will go straight and
> level. If it is climbing at 5850 rpm it is under
> pitched and will turn higher in level flight WOT. You
> know, like running around in 2 gear with a 3 speed
> transmission. Normal climb rpm WOT will be a couple
> hundred rpm lower that WOT rpm when in straight and level
> flight. 6200 rpm for 5 min is like "military
> power". Forget about that unless you have an in flight
> adjustable prop.
>
> If Bryan Melborn gave you a max limit
> for thrust line, I'd adhere to that. The higher the
> thrust line the more power it will absorb to overcome pitch
> down. With a big boy like you it will take even more
> power. How much? I don't know, but it will rob
> power as the thrust line is raised.
>
> My recommendation is:
>
> -Make sure engine is putting out rated
> power/hp.
>
> -Make sure the aircraft is rigged
> correctly.
>
> -Stop what you are doing and pitch the
> prop correctly through flight test - straight and level WOT
> bump 5800 rpm.
>
> If the above doesn't work, sell or burn
> the aircraft.
>
> Like I said in a previous email, my
> fully open 35hp Ultrastar with bare fuselage would fly 75
> mph, climb like a home sick angel, and get off the ground in
> a second with a 180 lb pilot and 7.75 gal of fuel.
>
> I've been lucky enough to fly many
> different Kolb aircraft over the last 35 years and I've
> never flown one that performed as you describe yours
> flies. Makes ya wonder doesn't it.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 11:05
> AM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
> FLIGHT TEST resumes
>
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I did not do a WOT run on the flight
> Saturday, but did see 5850 RPM on a shallow clomb when
> getting to altitude, at approx. 50-52 MPH. 5800 RPM is the
> maximum contitnuous power. The HKS has a takeoff rating of
> 6200 RPM for five minutes.
>
> The engine does not appear to be sick,
> the compression is very very high. It's a significant effort
> to swing the propeller by hand through a compression stroke,
> far far more difficult than on any "normal" airplane engine
> (Lycoming / Continental). Can't do it with one hand, even
> out at the end of the propeller.
>
> Again, the aircraft is off the ground
> in a few seconds, four maybe five seconds. It's off the
> ground in less than 300 feet, and my aircraft is almost 90
> lb. heavier than the "brochure" weight of a Firestar, and
> I'm a fat SOB myself (200+)
>
> Yesterday's flight started with about 8
> gallons of fuel on board. I have not measured/marked the new
> fuel tank yet, but I put in 7 gallons and had a small amount
> in there form the previous engine test run.
>
> If I had an unlimited budget of time
> and money I would do things a lot differently (we all
> would!), but in my case I am very limited in cost at the
> moment.Turning the gearbox into the up position does not
> cost me anything, and hopefully I can borrow a propeller to
> at least try. I'm not able to just buy a prop without
> knowing that it will solve the issue I have been fighting
> with.
>
> I am very much aware that having the
> propeller up that high above the tail boom will be something
> that Kolb recommends against. Bryan said that 38-39 inches
> above the tailboom is the limit and he would not want to fly
> a Kolb if the prop was up above 40 inches. I'm pretty sure
> that turning the HKS gearbox around will put me over 40
> inches.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety
> & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar
> FLIGHT TEST resumes
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 7:17
> AM
>
> "John
> Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> George H/Kolbers:
>
> I could get the same numbers as
> George
> H with my Ultrastar powered with a 35
> hp Cuyuna ULII02, and
> the only streamlining was my big toes
> on the open rudder
> pedals.
>
> I think our buddy Bill B has a sick
> engine. Maybe a sick engine,
> gear box, prop
> combo. Who knows? I have
> no idea sitting here
> with my second cup of hot coffee in
> front of a computer
> screen 2500 miles away.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of George Helton
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:21
> AM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS /
> Firestar
> FLIGHT TEST resumes
>
> George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
> Hi Bill. Sounds like things are
> improving. I=99m going to ask a John
> H. question. Did you do
> a speed check, WOT straight and
> level?
> Your climb seems low. What are you
> using for your climb speed. I=99ve
> found my Firestar that 44
> to 46mph works best. 850 to 1000 fpm
> seems the norm. I
> gotten higher figures then that, but
> with a nice headwind.
> I would guess you=99ll get 5 to 15
> mph
> by adding a enclosure and wing strut
> fairings. That=99s been
> my experience. I=99m actually running
> a 40hp , 2702 Hirth
> with a 2:29 G50 gearbox and a 64=9D 3
> blade Powerfin.
> Propspeed works out to be 2400 rpm @
> 5500 rpm, which is the
> suggested max. rpm. I can cruise
> anywhere between 40 and 65
> mph. WOT is around 70 to 75 mph
> straight and level. The
> wings are basically the same so I=99m
> just giving you what
> I=99m getting out of a original
> Firestar. Good luck!
> George H.
> Firestar
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton@gmail.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 19, 2018, at 2:38 AM,
> Bill
> Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > Howdy Kolbers, I test flew the
> HKS
> powered Firestar again yesterday
> morning. First test flight
> with the completely sealed center
> section.
> >
> > It showed a 10% improvement in
> "cruise" speed, going from the
> previous 45 MPH to 50 MPH now
> in level flight at 5400 RPM.
> >
> > This is an improvement, but not
> nearly as much of an improvement as I
> was looking for. The
> aircraft is still 8-10 MPH slower than
> Larry C's HKS
> Firestar in the same (no strut
> fairings or gear leg
> fairings) configuration.
> >
> > More importantly, the aircraft
> did
> NOT have anywhere near the spectacular
> climb performance
> that the Kolb should have with
> 50-60HP. Although I am off
> the ground in a couple of hundred
> feet, by the time I get to
> the far end of a 3800 foot runway, I
> am only 250 feet above
> ground. From what I have learned, the
> Firestar should be
> twice or three times that high over
> that distance.
> >
> > So considering the cost of
> replacing the gearbox (which I simply
> cannot do at present),
> I have to go back and do something I
> really did not want to
> do at all. But I'm out of options. I
> am going to turn the
> gearbox from the "down" position to
> the "up" position and
> install a much larger propeller.
> Probably going from 65 inch
> diameter 3 blade to 72 inch diameter 3
> blade.
> >
> > This will OF COURSE require me
> to
> put the stabilizer back to the
> original stock position,
> which will make John H and others
> happy to hear. (Currently
> the front stabilizer attach bolts are
> 1.125 inches above the
> stock fitting hole). Moving the thrust
> line that far upwards
> will create a very strong pitch-down,
> so I am now hoping
> that the stock stabilizer angle will
> be "down" far enough. I
> am hoping to be able to use full pwoer
> on takeoff, but I
> will have to approach it slowly.
> >
> > In the current configuration
> (stabilizer raised), the tail comes up
> automatically on
> takeoff roll, and I have to apply full
> rearward stick to
> hold it level until the aircraft lifts
> off. As it lifts off
> and gains speed, I can relax the stick
> and fly normally.
> Returning the stabilizer to the stock
> position will
> hopefully provide a little more
> down-force on the tail from
> propeller blast, and HOPEFULLY it will
> offset the pitch-down
> force form the propeller being higher
> above the aircraft.
> >
> > So now I have to find a
> propeller
> to borrow, and turn the gearbox
> around. I willr eport on how
> well this did or did not work,
> although I do expect to see a
> fairly good improvement in thrust. As
> you all may remember,
> I got 250 pounds of static thrust,
> which is less than some
> other people (like Wakataka copied
> below) measured with
> smaller engines.
> >
> > I'm afraid that I am the one who
> puts the "mental" in
> "experimental"...
> >
> > Bill Berle
> > www.ezflaphandle.com -
> safety & performance upgrade for
> light aircraft
> > www.grantstar.net
> - winning
> proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------
> > On Sun, 11/11/18, wakataka <wakataka@charter.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: HKS /
> Firestar STATIC THRUST test
> > To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > Date: Sunday, November 11, 2018,
> 4:26 PM
> >
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
> by:
> > "wakataka" <wakataka@charter.net>
> >
> > I measured 290 pounds static
> with
> a
> > Rotax 377 turning a 72" IVO
> prop.
> There was a slight amount
> > of tailwind that day, so I
> suspect
> that number is slightly
> > inflated, but I'm sure it
> produces
> at least 250 pounds. It
> > jumps right off the ground.
> >
> > --------
> > There is something fascinating
> about
> > science. One gets such wholesale
> returns of conjecture out
> > of such a trifling investment of
> fact.
> >
> > Mark Twain
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=484870#484870
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Support Your Lists This Month --
> > (And Get Some AWESOME FREE
> Gifts!)
> > Fund Raiser. Click on
> > to find out more about
> > Incentive Gifts provided
> > www.mypilotstore.com
> > support!
> >
>
> > -Matt Dralle, List
> Admin.
> > The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> > Navigator to browse
> > List Un/Subscription,
> > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> > - MATRONICS
> WEB FORUMS -
> > via the Web Forums!
> > - NEW MATRONICS
> LIST
> WIKI -
> > Email List Wiki!
> > - List Contribution
> Web Site -
> > support!
> >
>
> > -Matt Dralle, List
> Admin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
> Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB
> FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST
> WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web
> Site -
> support!
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
> Admin.
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 13
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Apologize for what?
Again....if it was me, I wouldn't just try increased propeller pitch to see what
happens.....I'd try to concentrate on propping the aircraft correctly. Do it
right and no matter what the results you will know it is propped correctly.
After getting the prop pitch correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can
check that off your list and "really" discover and correct another problem. If
not....burn it.
Did you ever check static thrust to see how it compares with a Firestar that flies
normally? Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you are getting
normal power out of your rig. Anyhow...that's the way it looks from Gantt International
Airport, Titus, Alabama.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Anyway, I apologize if I created abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing to
the Kolbers. I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller pitch
and see if that makes any significant difference. If that doesn't work I will
flip the gearbox and borrow a larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't work
THEN I may think about burning it...
Bill Berle
Message 14
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Again Bill...do not recall whether you have an Ivo prop...Likely you know the diff
between ul versions and medium ones...I tried to install a three blade 60
inch medium on a Firefly only to have it bog down at abt 4400 rpms...447 engine..Simply
cannot remove enough pitch... It could be that a ul prop might work
with most of the pitch dialed in...definitely would not be ideal however..Herb
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
Original Message
On Monday, November 19, 2018 4:58 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Apologize for what?
>
> Again....if it was me, I wouldn't just try increased propeller pitch to see what
happens.....I'd try to concentrate on propping the aircraft correctly. Do
it right and no matter what the results you will know it is propped correctly.
After getting the prop pitch correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can
check that off your list and "really" discover and correct another problem. If
not....burn it.
>
> Did you ever check static thrust to see how it compares with a Firestar that
flies normally? Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you are getting
normal power out of your rig. Anyhow...that's the way it looks from Gantt International
Airport, Titus, Alabama.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> Anyway, I apologize if I created abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing
to the Kolbers. I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller pitch
and see if that makes any significant difference. If that doesn't work I will
flip the gearbox and borrow a larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't
work THEN I may think about burning it...
>
> Bill Berle
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
I posted my static thrust test numbers to the Kolb list a week or so ago. 250 pounds
static thrust, measured on a new spring scale. 11 degrees pitch at the propeller
tip. I also asked for as many static thrust measurements from other Kolbers
as I could get. I only got a few replies with actual numbers. My static
thrust is a little or a lot less than some of the other numbers that were posted
on the Kolb list.
I also agree 100% that I am not getting the full amount of thrust out of my engine/prop
combination. I tried to fix theone thing on the airframe itself that
COULD have been a big problem, and that turned out to NOT be the big problem.So
I have to agree that I have a thrust probblem. But I do not think my problem
is that the engine is worn out or sick or defective. I believe the engine is
fairly healthy. I believe that the problem is in the gearbox/propeller combination,
transferring that power into usable thrust..
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 2:58 PM
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Apologize for what?
Again....if it was me, I wouldn't just
try increased propeller pitch to see what happens.....I'd
try to concentrate on propping the aircraft correctly.
Do it right and no matter what the results you will know it
is propped correctly. After getting the prop pitch
correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check that
off your list and "really" discover and correct another
problem. If not....burn it.
Did you ever check static thrust to see
how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you
are getting normal power out of your rig.
Anyhow...that's the way it looks from Gantt International
Airport, Titus, Alabama.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Anyway, I apologize if I created abig
mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers. I'm
going to try one more flight with increased propeller pitch
and see if that makes any significant difference. If that
doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a larger
propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I may
think about burning it...
Bill Berle
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 16
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Yep...the prop is the direct link between power and thrust. To be happy, it must
be correct.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
I posted my static thrust test numbers to the Kolb list a week or so ago. 250 pounds
static thrust, measured on a new spring scale. 11 degrees pitch at the propeller
tip. I also asked for as many static thrust measurements from other Kolbers
as I could get. I only got a few replies with actual numbers. My static
thrust is a little or a lot less than some of the other numbers that were posted
on the Kolb list.
I also agree 100% that I am not getting the full amount of thrust out of my engine/prop
combination. I tried to fix theone thing on the airframe itself that
COULD have been a big problem, and that turned out to NOT be the big problem.So
I have to agree that I have a thrust probblem. But I do not think my problem
is that the engine is worn out or sick or defective. I believe the engine is
fairly healthy. I believe that the problem is in the gearbox/propeller combination,
transferring that power into usable thrust..
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 2:58 PM
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Apologize for what?
Again....if it was me, I wouldn't just
try increased propeller pitch to see what happens.....I'd
try to concentrate on propping the aircraft correctly.
Do it right and no matter what the results you will know it
is propped correctly. After getting the prop pitch
correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check that
off your list and "really" discover and correct another
problem. If not....burn it.
Did you ever check static thrust to see
how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you
are getting normal power out of your rig.
Anyhow...that's the way it looks from Gantt International
Airport, Titus, Alabama.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Anyway, I apologize if I created abig
mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers. I'm
going to try one more flight with increased propeller pitch
and see if that makes any significant difference. If that
doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a larger
propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I may
think about burning it...
Bill Berle
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
I never measured thrust on any of my airplanes and engine combos. Don't have a
clue what it is.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
I posted my static thrust test numbers to the Kolb list a week or so ago. 250 pounds
static thrust, measured on a new spring scale. 11 degrees pitch at the propeller
tip. I also asked for as many static thrust measurements from other Kolbers
as I could get. I only got a few replies with actual numbers. My static
thrust is a little or a lot less than some of the other numbers that were posted
on the Kolb list.
I also agree 100% that I am not getting the full amount of thrust out of my engine/prop
combination. I tried to fix theone thing on the airframe itself that
COULD have been a big problem, and that turned out to NOT be the big problem.So
I have to agree that I have a thrust probblem. But I do not think my problem
is that the engine is worn out or sick or defective. I believe the engine is
fairly healthy. I believe that the problem is in the gearbox/propeller combination,
transferring that power into usable thrust..
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 2:58 PM
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Apologize for what?
Again....if it was me, I wouldn't just
try increased propeller pitch to see what happens.....I'd
try to concentrate on propping the aircraft correctly.
Do it right and no matter what the results you will know it
is propped correctly. After getting the prop pitch
correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check that
off your list and "really" discover and correct another
problem. If not....burn it.
Did you ever check static thrust to see
how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you
are getting normal power out of your rig.
Anyhow...that's the way it looks from Gantt International
Airport, Titus, Alabama.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Anyway, I apologize if I created abig
mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers. I'm
going to try one more flight with increased propeller pitch
and see if that makes any significant difference. If that
doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a larger
propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I may
think about burning it...
Bill Berle
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Bill if you want a direct comparison, box up your spring scale and send it
to me, I'll measure my HKS with it and send it back.
Larry
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 5:55 PM John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I never measured thrust on any of my airplanes and engine combos. Don't
> have a clue what it is.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 6:39 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
>
>
> I posted my static thrust test numbers to the Kolb list a week or so ago.
> 250 pounds static thrust, measured on a new spring scale. 11 degrees pitch
> at the propeller tip. I also asked for as many static thrust measurements
> from other Kolbers as I could get. I only got a few replies with actual
> numbers. My static thrust is a little or a lot less than some of the other
> numbers that were posted on the Kolb list.
>
> I also agree 100% that I am not getting the full amount of thrust out of
> my engine/prop combination. I tried to fix theone thing on the airframe
> itself that COULD have been a big problem, and that turned out to NOT be
> the big problem.So I have to agree that I have a thrust probblem. But I do
> not think my problem is that the engine is worn out or sick or defective. I
> believe the engine is fairly healthy. I believe that the problem is in the
> gearbox/propeller combination, transferring that power into usable thrust..
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/19/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 2:58 PM
>
> Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Apologize for what?
>
> Again....if it was me, I wouldn't just
> try increased propeller pitch to see what happens.....I'd
> try to concentrate on propping the aircraft correctly.
> Do it right and no matter what the results you will know it
> is propped correctly. After getting the prop pitch
> correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check that
> off your list and "really" discover and correct another
> problem. If not....burn it.
>
> Did you ever check static thrust to see
> how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
> Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you
> are getting normal power out of your rig.
> Anyhow...that's the way it looks from Gantt International
> Airport, Titus, Alabama.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> Anyway, I apologize if I created abig
> mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers. I'm
> going to try one more flight with increased propeller pitch
> and see if that makes any significant difference. If that
> doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a larger
> propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I may
> think about burning it...
>
> Bill Berle
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 19
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
I do not have an Ivoprop, I have an Arplast prop from France. I need the Arplast
because I need a large blade area (wide chord) to absorb 58HP within a diameter
and RPM restriction. I have a 3.47 to 1 gearbox on the engine. The prop RPM
is so slow that I need all the area I can get to absorb that power. If I had
the 2.58 gearbox I would be able to turn a 64 inch Ivo or Warp Drive prop at
higher RPM like most Kolbs.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz@protonmail.ch> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 3:26 PM
Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz@protonmail.ch>
Again Bill...do not recall whether you
have an Ivo prop...Likely you know the diff between ul
versions and medium ones...I tried to install a three blade
60 inch medium on a Firefly only to have it bog down at abt
4400 rpms...447 engine..Simply cannot remove enough pitch...
It could be that a ul prop might work with most of the pitch
dialed in...definitely would not be ideal however..Herb
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
Original Message
On Monday, November 19, 2018 4:58 PM,
John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: "John Hauck" jhauck@elmore.rr.com
>
> Apologize for what?
>
> Again....if it was me, I wouldn't
just try increased propeller pitch to see what
happens.....I'd try to concentrate on propping the aircraft
correctly. Do it right and no matter what the results you
will know it is propped correctly. After getting the prop
pitch correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check
that off your list and "really" discover and correct another
problem. If not....burn it.
>
> Did you ever check static thrust
to see how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you are
getting normal power out of your rig. Anyhow...that's the
way it looks from Gantt International Airport, Titus,
Alabama.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> Anyway, I apologize if I created
abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers.
I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller
pitch and see if that makes any significant difference. If
that doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a
larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I
may think about burning it...
>
> Bill Berle
>
Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser. Click on
to find out more about
Incentive Gifts provided
www.mypilotstore.com
support!
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The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller? Theyve apparently
been out of business for a couple of years. Their reputation seems to be somewhat
questionable.
George H
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> I do not have an Ivoprop, I have an Arplast prop from France. I need the Arplast
because I need a large blade area (wide chord) to absorb 58HP within a diameter
and RPM restriction. I have a 3.47 to 1 gearbox on the engine. The prop
RPM is so slow that I need all the area I can get to absorb that power. If I had
the 2.58 gearbox I would be able to turn a 64 inch Ivo or Warp Drive prop at
higher RPM like most Kolbs.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/19/18, Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz@protonmail.ch> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 3:26 PM
>
> Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz@protonmail.ch>
>
> Again Bill...do not recall whether you
> have an Ivo prop...Likely you know the diff between ul
> versions and medium ones...I tried to install a three blade
> 60 inch medium on a Firefly only to have it bog down at abt
> 4400 rpms...447 engine..Simply cannot remove enough pitch...
> It could be that a ul prop might work with most of the pitch
> dialed in...definitely would not be ideal however..Herb
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> Original Message
>
> On Monday, November 19, 2018 4:58 PM,
> John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: "John Hauck" jhauck@elmore.rr.com
>>
>> Apologize for what?
>>
>> Again....if it was me, I wouldn't
> just try increased propeller pitch to see what
> happens.....I'd try to concentrate on propping the aircraft
> correctly. Do it right and no matter what the results you
> will know it is propped correctly. After getting the prop
> pitch correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check
> that off your list and "really" discover and correct another
> problem. If not....burn it.
>>
>> Did you ever check static thrust
> to see how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
> Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you are
> getting normal power out of your rig. Anyhow...that's the
> way it looks from Gantt International Airport, Titus,
> Alabama.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>> Anyway, I apologize if I created
> abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers.
> I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller
> pitch and see if that makes any significant difference. If
> that doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a
> larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I
> may think about burning it...
>>
>> Bill Berle
>>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller? Theyve apparently
been out of
business for a couple of years. Their reputation seems to be somewhat questionable.
------------------
Perhaps some of the Kolb list can suggest the correct propeller, to meet THESE
SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS:
1) My engine will only spin the propeller at 1675 RPM at max continuous power (gearbox
limit)
2) The propeller diameter has to be 65 inches or less (tail boom interference)
3) The propeller can have only two or three blades (wing fold interference)
I have taken these specific parameters and called the major prop manufacturers...
Ivo, Warp, Powerfin, Prince, Ultra-Prop, Whirlwind. Every one of them has said
that it will be very difficult to make a lot of thrust at that slow RPM with
a 65 inch diameter prop, and all of them said that their prop blades are not
wide enough (blade area) for those conditions. They said I would need some other
brand of propeller with a very wide blade chord.
So I looked and found that the Arplast company made one style of propeller with
very wide chord blades, to use with high gear reduction ratios, in order to make
thrust in a smaller diameter with less noise for European noise regulations.
I managed to find a used one and buy it,a nd that is the prop onmy airplane
now.
So if I am obviously not making enough thrust with this wide-chord Arplast propeller,
how am I going to make any more thrust with a propeller that is narrower
(less blade choord) in the same diameter? Tell me if I am thinking incorrectly
here. I think I need a larger diameter propeller to solve the thrust problem,
regardless of what brand of prop I am using.
But if I turn the gearbox around, I can remove the 65 inch diameter limitation,
and run a larger prop, then I can run ANY good prop... Ivo, Warp, Powerfin, and
probably make a lot more thrust than I am making now.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Bill
Prop selection and reduction ratios are a tough one. When I installed my
redrive VW on my MKIIIC had PowerFin and the redrive manufacture willing to
work with me. The redrive guy sent me five different ratios at no cost to
me. PowerFin cut my wide cord three blade 72 inch prop down to 71 inch for
free. I also had the same engine turning a direct drive 60 inch prop. I got
more then twice the thrust and more speed going to a redrive VW. All my VWs
turn 3200 RPM at cruise and my redrive ratio is 1.61 giving app 2000 RPM at
the prop. What I think I have learned is that the larger the diameter prop
you have the more static thrust you will get (until the tips go supersonic)
but with the same HP you will have a limit of top speed. I cut my prop from
72" to 71" figuring could increase the pitch to get more climb and top
speed but it didn't work that way I think I lost both speed and climb. So
it is a tough issue.
Also if you flip your redrive your center of thrust rises but is it that
bad if the tips of you prop are the same distance or less from the boom
tube? In one configuration I had a 7"+ clearance for my 72" prop from the
boom tube and it was dangerous. Solo it wasn't too bad but with a passenger
I couldn't pitch up to get off the ground at full power, running out of
runway I pulled power and up I went. Once I got some more airspeed it was
OK, but landing was a bit of white knuckle. I got serious and designed
prototype for Kolb VW mount.
Not sure this helps but worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 8:37 PM George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller? They
=99ve
> apparently been out of business for a couple of years. Their reputation
> seems to be somewhat questionable.
> George H
> Firestar
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton@gmail.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I do not have an Ivoprop, I have an Arplast prop from France. I need th
e
> Arplast because I need a large blade area (wide chord) to absorb 58HP
> within a diameter and RPM restriction. I have a 3.47 to 1 gearbox on the
> engine. The prop RPM is so slow that I need all the area I can get to
> absorb that power. If I had the 2.58 gearbox I would be able to turn a 64
> inch Ivo or Warp Drive prop at higher RPM like most Kolbs.
> >
> > Bill Berle
> > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > On Mon, 11/19/18, Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz@protonmail.ch> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
> > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> > Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 3:26 PM
> >
> > Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz@protonmail.ch>
> >
> > Again Bill...do not recall whether you
> > have an Ivo prop...Likely you know the diff between ul
> > versions and medium ones...I tried to install a three blade
> > 60 inch medium on a Firefly only to have it bog down at abt
> > 4400 rpms...447 engine..Simply cannot remove enough pitch...
> > It could be that a ul prop might work with most of the pitch
> > dialed in...definitely would not be ideal however..Herb
> >
> >
> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> >
> > =90=90=90=90=90=90=90 Origina
l Message
> > =90=90=90=90=90=90=90
> > On Monday, November 19, 2018 4:58 PM,
> > John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> --> Kolb-List message posted
> > by: "John Hauck" jhauck@elmore.rr.com
> >>
> >> Apologize for what?
> >>
> >> Again....if it was me, I wouldn't
> > just try increased propeller pitch to see what
> > happens.....I'd try to concentrate on propping the aircraft
> > correctly. Do it right and no matter what the results you
> > will know it is propped correctly. After getting the prop
> > pitch correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check
> > that off your list and "really" discover and correct another
> > problem. If not....burn it.
> >>
> >> Did you ever check static thrust
> > to see how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
> > Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you are
> > getting normal power out of your rig. Anyhow...that's the
> > way it looks from Gantt International Airport, Titus,
> > Alabama.
> >>
> >> john h
> >> mkIII
> >> Titus, Alabama
> >>
> >> Anyway, I apologize if I created
> > abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers.
> > I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller
> > pitch and see if that makes any significant difference. If
> > that doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a
> > larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I
> > may think about burning it...
> >>
> >> Bill Berle
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Support Your Lists This Month --
> > (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> > Fund Raiser. Click on
> > to find out more about
> > Incentive Gifts provided
> > www.mypilotstore.com
> > support!
> >
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> > Navigator to browse
> > List Un/Subscription,
> > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> > via the Web Forums!
> > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> > Email List Wiki!
> > - List Contribution Web Site -
> > support!
> >
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Rick N/Kolbers:
Reminds me of my first take off after I repowered from an 80 to a 100 hp
912. Normally, I'd go full throttle, roll a short ways through 30 mph
and ease back on the stick. That is what I did with my brand new
engine, but the MKIII was stuck to the sod. Coming back further on the
stick didn't help. It was not going to fly. Instinctively, I slacked
off the power a tad and Miss P'fer lifted right off like she was
supposed to. Muscle memory from the 80 was working with the high thrust
line increase in pusher power. Took a little while to adjust to this
new behavior, but is a good example of what the big lever up top is
doing to the aircraft. I believe it takes more power in the pusher than
in the tractor configuration. The Ultrastar was more efficient because
it was a low pusher.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
Bill
Prop selection and reduction ratios are a tough one. When I installed my
redrive VW on my MKIIIC had PowerFin and the redrive manufacture willing
to work with me. The redrive guy sent me five different ratios at no
cost to me. PowerFin cut my wide cord three blade 72 inch prop down to
71 inch for free. I also had the same engine turning a direct drive 60
inch prop. I got more then twice the thrust and more speed going to a
redrive VW. All my VWs turn 3200 RPM at cruise and my redrive ratio is
1.61 giving app 2000 RPM at the prop. What I think I have learned is
that the larger the diameter prop you have the more static thrust you
will get (until the tips go supersonic) but with the same HP you will
have a limit of top speed. I cut my prop from 72" to 71" figuring could
increase the pitch to get more climb and top speed but it didn't work
that way I think I lost both speed and climb. So it is a tough issue.
Also if you flip your redrive your center of thrust rises but is it that
bad if the tips of you prop are the same distance or less from the boom
tube? In one configuration I had a 7"+ clearance for my 72" prop from
the boom tube and it was dangerous. Solo it wasn't too bad but with a
passenger I couldn't pitch up to get off the ground at full power,
running out of runway I pulled power and up I went. Once I got some more
airspeed it was OK, but landing was a bit of white knuckle. I got
serious and designed prototype for Kolb VW mount.
Not sure this helps but worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 8:37 PM George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
wrote:
Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller?
They=99ve apparently been out of business for a couple of years.
Their reputation seems to be somewhat questionable.
George H
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
<victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I do not have an Ivoprop, I have an Arplast prop from France. I need
the Arplast because I need a large blade area (wide chord) to absorb
58HP within a diameter and RPM restriction. I have a 3.47 to 1 gearbox
on the engine. The prop RPM is so slow that I need all the area I can
get to absorb that power. If I had the 2.58 gearbox I would be able to
turn a 64 inch Ivo or Warp Drive prop at higher RPM like most Kolbs.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light
aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/19/18, Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz@protonmail.ch> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 3:26 PM
>
> Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz@protonmail.ch>
>
> Again Bill...do not recall whether you
> have an Ivo prop...Likely you know the diff between ul
> versions and medium ones...I tried to install a three blade
> 60 inch medium on a Firefly only to have it bog down at abt
> 4400 rpms...447 engine..Simply cannot remove enough pitch...
> It could be that a ul prop might work with most of the pitch
> dialed in...definitely would not be ideal however..Herb
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> =90=90=90=90=90=90=90
Original Message
> =90=90=90=90=90=90=90
> On Monday, November 19, 2018 4:58 PM,
> John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: "John Hauck" jhauck@elmore.rr.com
>>
>> Apologize for what?
>>
>> Again....if it was me, I wouldn't
> just try increased propeller pitch to see what
> happens.....I'd try to concentrate on propping the aircraft
> correctly. Do it right and no matter what the results you
> will know it is propped correctly. After getting the prop
> pitch correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check
> that off your list and "really" discover and correct another
> problem. If not....burn it.
>>
>> Did you ever check static thrust
> to see how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
> Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you are
> getting normal power out of your rig. Anyhow...that's the
> way it looks from Gantt International Airport, Titus,
> Alabama.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>> Anyway, I apologize if I created
> abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers.
> I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller
> pitch and see if that makes any significant difference. If
> that doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a
> larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I
> may think about burning it...
>>
>> Bill Berle
>>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
> (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Fund Raiser. Click on
> to find out more about
> Incentive Gifts provided
> www.mypilotstore.com
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
br> fts!)
r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
Im amazed that the Powerfin Bblade isnt wide enough for your needs? Or is it that
they dont make a 72diameter prop? You may have sideline your project until
you can afford that new or used gearbox. It seems your choice of engines is the
main problem. Actually thats not really fair. HKS is a good engine. The gearbox
is the problem. Larry C.,seems to think your mean problem now is to much weight.
Pilot+Aircraft.
George H.
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Do Not Archive
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 19, 2018, at 9:00 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller? Theyve apparently
been out of
> business for a couple of years. Their reputation seems to be somewhat questionable.
> ------------------
>
> Perhaps some of the Kolb list can suggest the correct propeller, to meet THESE
SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS:
>
> 1) My engine will only spin the propeller at 1675 RPM at max continuous power
(gearbox limit)
> 2) The propeller diameter has to be 65 inches or less (tail boom interference)
> 3) The propeller can have only two or three blades (wing fold interference)
>
> I have taken these specific parameters and called the major prop manufacturers...
Ivo, Warp, Powerfin, Prince, Ultra-Prop, Whirlwind. Every one of them has
said that it will be very difficult to make a lot of thrust at that slow RPM
with a 65 inch diameter prop, and all of them said that their prop blades are
not wide enough (blade area) for those conditions. They said I would need some
other brand of propeller with a very wide blade chord.
>
> So I looked and found that the Arplast company made one style of propeller with
very wide chord blades, to use with high gear reduction ratios, in order to
make thrust in a smaller diameter with less noise for European noise regulations.
I managed to find a used one and buy it,a nd that is the prop onmy airplane
now.
>
> So if I am obviously not making enough thrust with this wide-chord Arplast propeller,
how am I going to make any more thrust with a propeller that is narrower
(less blade choord) in the same diameter? Tell me if I am thinking incorrectly
here. I think I need a larger diameter propeller to solve the thrust problem,
regardless of what brand of prop I am using.
>
> But if I turn the gearbox around, I can remove the 65 inch diameter limitation,
and run a larger prop, then I can run ANY good prop... Ivo, Warp, Powerfin,
and probably make a lot more thrust than I am making now.
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes |
BILL it's not much more difficult to remove the wings then it is to fold them and
I'm sure you could rig up a jig so you could do it quickly and by your self.
Then you could have the four blades your gear reduction was designed for.
Joe
> On November 19, 2018 at 9:00 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller? Theyve apparently
been out of
> business for a couple of years. Their reputation seems to be somewhat questionable.
> ------------------
>
> Perhaps some of the Kolb list can suggest the correct propeller, to meet THESE
SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS:
>
> 1) My engine will only spin the propeller at 1675 RPM at max continuous power
(gearbox limit)
> 2) The propeller diameter has to be 65 inches or less (tail boom interference)
> 3) The propeller can have only two or three blades (wing fold interference)
>
> I have taken these specific parameters and called the major prop manufacturers...
Ivo, Warp, Powerfin, Prince, Ultra-Prop, Whirlwind. Every one of them has
said that it will be very difficult to make a lot of thrust at that slow RPM
with a 65 inch diameter prop, and all of them said that their prop blades are
not wide enough (blade area) for those conditions. They said I would need some
other brand of propeller with a very wide blade chord.
>
> So I looked and found that the Arplast company made one style of propeller with
very wide chord blades, to use with high gear reduction ratios, in order to
make thrust in a smaller diameter with less noise for European noise regulations.
I managed to find a used one and buy it,a nd that is the prop onmy airplane
now.
>
> So if I am obviously not making enough thrust with this wide-chord Arplast propeller,
how am I going to make any more thrust with a propeller that is narrower
(less blade choord) in the same diameter? Tell me if I am thinking incorrectly
here. I think I need a larger diameter propeller to solve the thrust problem,
regardless of what brand of prop I am using.
>
> But if I turn the gearbox around, I can remove the 65 inch diameter limitation,
and run a larger prop, then I can run ANY good prop... Ivo, Warp, Powerfin,
and probably make a lot more thrust than I am making now.
>
>
>
>
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