Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:08 AM - Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (DavidGerdeman)
2. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (Pfatchantz)
3. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (John Hauck)
4. 07:36 AM - Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (13brv3)
5. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (Pfatchantz)
6. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (John Hauck)
7. 08:07 AM - Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (13brv3)
8. 03:23 PM - Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal (slingshot003)
9. 08:17 PM - Re: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal (Richard Girard)
10. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal (John Fitt)
11. 10:13 PM - Re: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal (Bill Berle)
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Subject: | Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? |
It's true the Firestar and SS are really 1 1/2 person planes but I fly mostly by
myself now with a very rare passenger. I quit renting 172's and normally rent
a little 150/152 when I feel like just blasting around or playing in a cross
wind.
Thruth is I own plans for many planes and while the SS is very high on my list
of favorites, here in Ohio there isn't much to do with the low end of the speed
envelope. The $25k-$30k it will cost to complete can be a Sonex or even a Grumman
AA5. So my tinkering side wants to design the front cage just to clear my
head, guess we will see if anything comes of it.
--------
Sometimes flying, sometimes planning, hopefully soon to be building.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487168#487168
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Subject: | Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? |
wonder if anyone has tried a clipped wing Firestar?? Not so sure about a 22 foot
wing span...24?
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
Original Message
On Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:07 AM, DavidGerdeman <davidrgerdeman@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> It's true the Firestar and SS are really 1 1/2 person planes but I fly mostly
by myself now with a very rare passenger. I quit renting 172's and normally rent
a little 150/152 when I feel like just blasting around or playing in a cross
wind.
>
> Thruth is I own plans for many planes and while the SS is very high on my list
of favorites, here in Ohio there isn't much to do with the low end of the speed
envelope. The $25k-$30k it will cost to complete can be a Sonex or even a
Grumman AA5. So my tinkering side wants to design the front cage just to clear
my head, guess we will see if anything comes of it.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sometimes flying, sometimes planning, hopefully soon to be building.
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487168#487168
>
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Subject: | Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? |
A Firefly is a clipped wing Firestar.
The Fire Fly and Sling Shot both have 22 foot wing span. Both fly very well.
I've flown passengers in the Sling Shot. Always enjoyed the quick roll rate of
both models. I flew the Sling Shot before I flew a Fire Fly. Was a little
apprehensive about those stubby little wings. My first flight was out of Oshkosh.
It seemed to take a lot of power to taxi and a little slow on the take off.
Also landed with a quick, short roll out. I mentioned this to Dennis Souder
when I landed. He reached under the seat and turned off the parking brake
with a big grin. After that, it ground handled much better. First Kolb I flew
with a parking brake. I didn't have a clue. Glad I didn't put this new aircraft
on its nose.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pfatchantz
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe?
wonder if anyone has tried a clipped wing Firestar?? Not so sure about a 22 foot
wing span...24?
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Subject: | Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? |
I did quite a bit of searching for "clipped wing firestar", and it has been done,
but there wasn't much detail. I think you could come pretty close to a SS,
but it wouldn't have the stronger 6" tubes.
Rusty
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487175#487175
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Subject: | Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? |
Bet the nose cone wasn't 500 bucks back then..:-) I think the nose cone could
be abs molded...cost of the mold might be prohibitive..
Herb
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
Original Message
On Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:32 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> A Firefly is a clipped wing Firestar.
>
> The Fire Fly and Sling Shot both have 22 foot wing span. Both fly very well.
I've flown passengers in the Sling Shot. Always enjoyed the quick roll rate of
both models. I flew the Sling Shot before I flew a Fire Fly. Was a little apprehensive
about those stubby little wings. My first flight was out of Oshkosh.
It seemed to take a lot of power to taxi and a little slow on the take off. Also
landed with a quick, short roll out. I mentioned this to Dennis Souder when
I landed. He reached under the seat and turned off the parking brake with a
big grin. After that, it ground handled much better. First Kolb I flew with a
parking brake. I didn't have a clue. Glad I didn't put this new aircraft on its
nose.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pfatchantz
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:12 AM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe?
>
>
> wonder if anyone has tried a clipped wing Firestar?? Not so sure about a 22 foot
wing span...24?
>
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Subject: | Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? |
Don't think you can break a 5" tubular wing spar, especially on a 22' wing.
Don't know of anyone that has succeeded in breaking any Kolb wing spar, 5 or
6 inch.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 13brv3
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:36 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe?
I did quite a bit of searching for "clipped wing firestar", and it has been
done, but there wasn't much detail. I think you could come pretty close to
a SS, but it wouldn't have the stronger 6" tubes.
Rusty
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487175#487175
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Subject: | Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? |
Agreed. I recently re-read the "flight test to destruction" article about what
it took to break an Ultrastar, and the wing was upgraded after that. It would
be really hard to break for sure.
Rusty
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487178#487178
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Subject: | Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal |
Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal. Do any of you
with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you just fold the
wings into it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rests on top
of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2". With the center section
mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the front of the gap seal & prevents
the wing from mating with its anchoring pin. If the wing is first folded
all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shield sticking above he center section
hoop blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In order for this to have
worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been put on after the gap seal
was installed. Maybe I am missing something here?
I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield flush
with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physically attached
to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to handle any
wind side loads as when crabbing.
I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air. I will do full or
semi-full enclosure down the road. Any ideas out there? -Richard Swiderski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg
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Subject: | Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal |
Richard, I don't think you can get there from here. It's just the geometry
of the way the wing swings. What you might consider is having the wings
butt up against the gap seal rather than having them slide into it. Use
some sailplane gap seal tape when the plane is all rigged. That's the
solution I used on the Mk IIIX.
Rick
On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:25 PM slingshot003 <i2bxtn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal. Do any
> of you with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you ju
st
> fold the wings into it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield
> rests on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2".
> With the center section mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the fron
t
> of the gap seal & prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin.
If
> the wing is first folded all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shie
ld
> sticking above he center section hoop blocks the gap seal from being
> inserted. In order for this to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield
> must have been put on after the gap seal was installed. Maybe I am missi
ng
> something here?
>
> I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield
> flush with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physical
ly
> attached to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enoug
h
> to handle any wind side loads as when crabbing.
>
> I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air. I will do
> full or semi-full enclosure down the road. Any ideas out there? -Richard
> Swiderski
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
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Subject: | Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal |
The wing=99s leading edge has a 1-1/2=9D tube that extends about
6=9D past the inboard rib and into the center section leading edge on
my fire star ll
Talking with Kolb they said that the 6=9D extension was not critical t
o the wing and could be shortened (or cut flush with the inboard wing rib) t
o allow easier wing folding.
Call them to verify that fact, I found l
Could fold the wing without shortening. Top section of my center gap seal is
non removable and the wing can slowly swing into position
with Velcro strip to seal and prevent chafing. They overlap about 1=9D
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 22, 2019, at 8:09 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Richard, I don't think you can get there from here. It's just the geometry
of the way the wing swings. What you might consider is having the wings but
t up against the gap seal rather than having them slide into it. Use some sa
ilplane gap seal tape when the plane is all rigged. That's the solution I us
ed on the Mk IIIX.
>
> Rick
>
>> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:25 PM slingshot003 <i2bxtn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal. Do any o
f you with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you just f
old the wings into it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rest
s on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2". With the
center section mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the front of the ga
p seal & prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin. If the wing i
s first folded all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shield sticking a
bove he center section hoop blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In orde
r for this to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been put o
n after the gap seal was installed. Maybe I am missing something here?
>>
>> I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield f
lush with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physically a
ttached to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to
handle any wind side loads as when crabbing.
>>
>> I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air. I will do f
ull or semi-full enclosure down the road. Any ideas out there? -Richard Swi
derski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?Kolb-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
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>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal |
I can save somebody a lot of wasted time on this.
I spent MONTHS screwing around trying to build center section fairings and seals
that stayed in place as you unfold the wings, hoping to make the wings just
seal against the gap seal automatically. I had one that butted up against the
wing root ribs, I had one where the wings slid underneath the gap seal, that needed
a special "shoehorn" tool to guide the wing under the seal. I modified all
of these three or four times, scratched my head and modified some more. I'm
not kidding when I say that several months were spent on this, trying to come
up with something.
The short answer is that it is a difficult puzzle to solve, because there are several
parts or components that physically or geometrically conflict with each
other. And then on top of that, the Kolb was designed so that the gap seal is
supported by the wings... there is little or no solid structure in the RIGHT
place to permanently mount the gap seal forward of the spar carry through.
My installation was further complicated by having a non-standard engine, which
had parts and pieces that were shaped differently than the Rotax, including three
oil lines that "penetrated" through the gap seal and required delicate cutouts
and removable pieces.
So affter all those months and piles of discarded parts, I went back to a relatively
simple piece of .016 bent aluminum that attached to the wing with Velcro.
After everything I learned, I can say that the Kolb wing folding design makes
it very VERY time consuming and challenging to make a center gap seal that
stays in place and the wings just unfold and automatically seal against.
At the end of the day, the original design shown on the plans (for the Firestar
it is a piece of lexan or plexiglas held in place with velcro) will be the easiest
way by far.
I can hear John H laughing all the way from Alabama :)
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/22/19, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 8:09 PM
Richard, I don't
think you can get there from here. It's just the
geometry of the way the wing swings. What you might consider
is having the wings butt up against the gap seal rather than
having them slide into it. Use some sailplane gap seal tape
when the plane is all rigged. That's the solution I used
on the Mk IIIX.
Rick
On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:25
PM slingshot003 <i2bxtn@gmail.com>
wrote:
--> Kolb-List message
posted by: "slingshot003" <i2bxtn@gmail.com>
Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap
seal. Do any of you with a rigid gap seal have it set up
so it stays in place & you just fold the wings into
it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rests
on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1
1/2". With the center section mounted, the wing
leading edge tubes hit the front of the gap seal &
prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin. If
the wing is first folded all the way forward & pinned,
then the wind shield sticking above he center section hoop
blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In order for this
to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been
put on after the gap seal was installed. Maybe I am
missing something here?
I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the
wind shield flush with the top of the hoop, but since the
wind shield is not physically attached to the hoop (only to
the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to handle any
wind side loads as when crabbing.
I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the
air. I will do full or semi-full enclosure down the
road. Any ideas out there? -Richard Swiderski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg
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target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Blessed are the cracked, for
they shall let in the light. Groucho
Marx
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