---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/22/19: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:08 AM - Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (DavidGerdeman) 2. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (Pfatchantz) 3. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (John Hauck) 4. 07:36 AM - Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (13brv3) 5. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (Pfatchantz) 6. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (John Hauck) 7. 08:07 AM - Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? (13brv3) 8. 03:23 PM - Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal (slingshot003) 9. 08:17 PM - Re: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal (Richard Girard) 10. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal (John Fitt) 11. 10:13 PM - Re: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal (Bill Berle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:06 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? From: "DavidGerdeman" It's true the Firestar and SS are really 1 1/2 person planes but I fly mostly by myself now with a very rare passenger. I quit renting 172's and normally rent a little 150/152 when I feel like just blasting around or playing in a cross wind. Thruth is I own plans for many planes and while the SS is very high on my list of favorites, here in Ohio there isn't much to do with the low end of the speed envelope. The $25k-$30k it will cost to complete can be a Sonex or even a Grumman AA5. So my tinkering side wants to design the front cage just to clear my head, guess we will see if anything comes of it. -------- Sometimes flying, sometimes planning, hopefully soon to be building. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487168#487168 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:08 AM PST US From: Pfatchantz Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? wonder if anyone has tried a clipped wing Firestar?? Not so sure about a 22 foot wing span...24? Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. Original Message On Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:07 AM, DavidGerdeman wrote: > > It's true the Firestar and SS are really 1 1/2 person planes but I fly mostly by myself now with a very rare passenger. I quit renting 172's and normally rent a little 150/152 when I feel like just blasting around or playing in a cross wind. > > Thruth is I own plans for many planes and while the SS is very high on my list of favorites, here in Ohio there isn't much to do with the low end of the speed envelope. The $25k-$30k it will cost to complete can be a Sonex or even a Grumman AA5. So my tinkering side wants to design the front cage just to clear my head, guess we will see if anything comes of it. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sometimes flying, sometimes planning, hopefully soon to be building. > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487168#487168 > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:19 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? A Firefly is a clipped wing Firestar. The Fire Fly and Sling Shot both have 22 foot wing span. Both fly very well. I've flown passengers in the Sling Shot. Always enjoyed the quick roll rate of both models. I flew the Sling Shot before I flew a Fire Fly. Was a little apprehensive about those stubby little wings. My first flight was out of Oshkosh. It seemed to take a lot of power to taxi and a little slow on the take off. Also landed with a quick, short roll out. I mentioned this to Dennis Souder when I landed. He reached under the seat and turned off the parking brake with a big grin. After that, it ground handled much better. First Kolb I flew with a parking brake. I didn't have a clue. Glad I didn't put this new aircraft on its nose. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pfatchantz Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:12 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? wonder if anyone has tried a clipped wing Firestar?? Not so sure about a 22 foot wing span...24? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:36 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? From: "13brv3" <13brv3@gmail.com> I did quite a bit of searching for "clipped wing firestar", and it has been done, but there wasn't much detail. I think you could come pretty close to a SS, but it wouldn't have the stronger 6" tubes. Rusty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487175#487175 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:56 AM PST US From: Pfatchantz Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? Bet the nose cone wasn't 500 bucks back then..:-) I think the nose cone could be abs molded...cost of the mold might be prohibitive.. Herb Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. Original Message On Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:32 AM, John Hauck wrote: > > A Firefly is a clipped wing Firestar. > > The Fire Fly and Sling Shot both have 22 foot wing span. Both fly very well. I've flown passengers in the Sling Shot. Always enjoyed the quick roll rate of both models. I flew the Sling Shot before I flew a Fire Fly. Was a little apprehensive about those stubby little wings. My first flight was out of Oshkosh. It seemed to take a lot of power to taxi and a little slow on the take off. Also landed with a quick, short roll out. I mentioned this to Dennis Souder when I landed. He reached under the seat and turned off the parking brake with a big grin. After that, it ground handled much better. First Kolb I flew with a parking brake. I didn't have a clue. Glad I didn't put this new aircraft on its nose. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pfatchantz > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:12 AM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? > > > wonder if anyone has tried a clipped wing Firestar?? Not so sure about a 22 foot wing span...24? > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:15 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? Don't think you can break a 5" tubular wing spar, especially on a 22' wing. Don't know of anyone that has succeeded in breaking any Kolb wing spar, 5 or 6 inch. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 13brv3 Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:36 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? I did quite a bit of searching for "clipped wing firestar", and it has been done, but there wasn't much detail. I think you could come pretty close to a SS, but it wouldn't have the stronger 6" tubes. Rusty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487175#487175 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:51 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Cost to scratch build Ultrastar airframe? From: "13brv3" <13brv3@gmail.com> Agreed. I recently re-read the "flight test to destruction" article about what it took to break an Ultrastar, and the wing was upgraded after that. It would be really hard to break for sure. Rusty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487178#487178 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:23:55 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal From: "slingshot003" Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal. Do any of you with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you just fold the wings into it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rests on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2". With the center section mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the front of the gap seal & prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin. If the wing is first folded all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shield sticking above he center section hoop blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In order for this to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been put on after the gap seal was installed. Maybe I am missing something here? I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield flush with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physically attached to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to handle any wind side loads as when crabbing. I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air. I will do full or semi-full enclosure down the road. Any ideas out there? -Richard Swiderski Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:32 PM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Richard, I don't think you can get there from here. It's just the geometry of the way the wing swings. What you might consider is having the wings butt up against the gap seal rather than having them slide into it. Use some sailplane gap seal tape when the plane is all rigged. That's the solution I used on the Mk IIIX. Rick On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:25 PM slingshot003 wrote: > > Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal. Do any > of you with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you ju st > fold the wings into it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield > rests on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2". > With the center section mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the fron t > of the gap seal & prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin. If > the wing is first folded all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shie ld > sticking above he center section hoop blocks the gap seal from being > inserted. In order for this to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield > must have been put on after the gap seal was installed. Maybe I am missi ng > something here? > > I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield > flush with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physical ly > attached to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enoug h > to handle any wind side loads as when crabbing. > > I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air. I will do > full or semi-full enclosure down the road. Any ideas out there? -Richard > Swiderski > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:35 PM PST US From: John Fitt Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal The wing=99s leading edge has a 1-1/2=9D tube that extends about 6=9D past the inboard rib and into the center section leading edge on my fire star ll Talking with Kolb they said that the 6=9D extension was not critical t o the wing and could be shortened (or cut flush with the inboard wing rib) t o allow easier wing folding. Call them to verify that fact, I found l Could fold the wing without shortening. Top section of my center gap seal is non removable and the wing can slowly swing into position with Velcro strip to seal and prevent chafing. They overlap about 1=9D Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 22, 2019, at 8:09 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > > Richard, I don't think you can get there from here. It's just the geometry of the way the wing swings. What you might consider is having the wings but t up against the gap seal rather than having them slide into it. Use some sa ilplane gap seal tape when the plane is all rigged. That's the solution I us ed on the Mk IIIX. > > Rick > >> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:25 PM slingshot003 wrote: >> >> Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal. Do any o f you with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you just f old the wings into it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rest s on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2". With the center section mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the front of the ga p seal & prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin. If the wing i s first folded all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shield sticking a bove he center section hoop blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In orde r for this to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been put o n after the gap seal was installed. Maybe I am missing something here? >> >> I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield f lush with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physically a ttached to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to handle any wind side loads as when crabbing. >> >> I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air. I will do f ull or semi-full enclosure down the road. Any ideas out there? -Richard Swi derski >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg >> >> >> >> ========== >> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navi gator?Kolb-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n >> ========== >> >> >> > > > -- > =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:29 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal I can save somebody a lot of wasted time on this. I spent MONTHS screwing around trying to build center section fairings and seals that stayed in place as you unfold the wings, hoping to make the wings just seal against the gap seal automatically. I had one that butted up against the wing root ribs, I had one where the wings slid underneath the gap seal, that needed a special "shoehorn" tool to guide the wing under the seal. I modified all of these three or four times, scratched my head and modified some more. I'm not kidding when I say that several months were spent on this, trying to come up with something. The short answer is that it is a difficult puzzle to solve, because there are several parts or components that physically or geometrically conflict with each other. And then on top of that, the Kolb was designed so that the gap seal is supported by the wings... there is little or no solid structure in the RIGHT place to permanently mount the gap seal forward of the spar carry through. My installation was further complicated by having a non-standard engine, which had parts and pieces that were shaped differently than the Rotax, including three oil lines that "penetrated" through the gap seal and required delicate cutouts and removable pieces. So affter all those months and piles of discarded parts, I went back to a relatively simple piece of .016 bent aluminum that attached to the wing with Velcro. After everything I learned, I can say that the Kolb wing folding design makes it very VERY time consuming and challenging to make a center gap seal that stays in place and the wings just unfold and automatically seal against. At the end of the day, the original design shown on the plans (for the Firestar it is a piece of lexan or plexiglas held in place with velcro) will be the easiest way by far. I can hear John H laughing all the way from Alabama :) Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 1/22/19, Richard Girard wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 8:09 PM Richard, I don't think you can get there from here. It's just the geometry of the way the wing swings. What you might consider is having the wings butt up against the gap seal rather than having them slide into it. Use some sailplane gap seal tape when the plane is all rigged. That's the solution I used on the Mk IIIX. Rick On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:25 PM slingshot003 wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "slingshot003" Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal. Do any of you with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you just fold the wings into it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rests on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2". With the center section mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the front of the gap seal & prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin. If the wing is first folded all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shield sticking above he center section hoop blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In order for this to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been put on after the gap seal was installed. Maybe I am missing something here? I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield flush with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physically attached to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to handle any wind side loads as when crabbing. I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air. I will do full or semi-full enclosure down the road. Any ideas out there? -Richard Swiderski Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. 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