Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:07 AM - Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (shaypete)
2. 09:28 AM - Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Jerry-TS-MkII)
3. 10:18 AM - Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Rex Rodebush)
4. 10:57 AM - Re: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Richard Girard)
5. 11:16 AM - video (Larry Cottrell)
6. 01:33 PM - Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Rex Rodebush)
7. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Charlie England)
8. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Charlie England)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition |
Thank you top all that have responded. I drilled out a rivet as some of you had
suggested and would appreciate your opinions . I added a picture of the rivet
on the link posted in my initial thread.
Below a link to the Rivet picture
https://photos.app.goo.gl/N4vr3GxbQyiQScYaA
--------
Peter
Raleigh, NC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489489#489489
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition |
Looks like good advise from all of the other replies. I too would be concerned
about using a Cuyuna engine. (Like.. do I make a cool go-cart out of it, or
use it as a boat anchor??). I'm not a Cuyuna fan, but you probably didn't notice.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Alodine. It is a non-electrically applied surface preparation, which treats the aluminum as if it has been anodized, only a thinner surface layer. And I believe your parts would need to be disassembled to do a proper job. One link adds some details. https://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/aluminum-corrosion-treatment.php Normally it is applied by dipping the parts, although I have done constant flow over some parts, and believe that was with success. I've used plastic gutters for straight tubing dip tanks.. and with a different job, used 4 PVC 4" drain tile tubes.. one for etch, one for Alodine, and two for water rinse. All in one frame holding them vertical, but each one removable. Worked great.
As others have mentioned.. your disassemble efforts could be significant, if you
go that route. I agree, but also agree in the removal of any rivet heads that
end up inside a structure. Complete disassembly does make that and Alodine
application easier.. its just twice as much work as building one initially.
I don't know a lot about the early Kolbs.. but I'd have to wonder why SS rivets
were not used initially.. unless someone was cutting corners.
Best Wishes, Jerry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489494#489494
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition |
Peter,
Sometimes guys would dip the steel rivet in heavy oil or paint to protect it from
corrosion before pulling. It looks like this was not the case with yours.
I would strongly consider drilling out the rivets and replacing with SS. As
one other person mentioned; drilling out steel rivets is much easier than drilling
out SS rivets and if you keep a sharp bit it should go fairly fast. Also,
unless your're built like Popeye invest in a pneumatic puller from Harbor Freight
before installing the SS rivets.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489496#489496
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition |
Rex et al, Really, REALLY Bad ideas being tossed about any containment by
the thought process. The rivets are steel, NOT stainless steel. They are
used because Homer was trying to make a legal ultralight. He had plenty of
strength in the thin wall aluminum tubing. He needed an attachment that was
just strong enough to pull the rivet to the recommended dimension and
strength without having it distort the aluminum structure. Stainless steel
rivets are not some sort of cure all. Even my Firestar, with its .028 wall
thickness tubing uses plain steel rivets for the same exact reason. Treat
the corrosion per your favorite product and application method then make
all attachments per the original builders manual. Barring that, replace
with what you found.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 12:21 PM Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Peter,
>
> Sometimes guys would dip the steel rivet in heavy oil or paint to protect
> it from corrosion before pulling. It looks like this was not the case wi
th
> yours. I would strongly consider drilling out the rivets and replacing
> with SS. As one other person mentioned; drilling out steel rivets is muc
h
> easier than drilling out SS rivets and if you keep a sharp bit it should
go
> fairly fast. Also, unless your're built like Popeye invest in a pneumati
c
> puller from Harbor Freight before installing the SS rivets.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489496#489496
>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
https://vimeo.com/339877641
<https://click.email.vimeo.com/?qs=67959caa7e4fc751ec7f69c93e38ae89c0e73e447f86f0b0fd63108f330a6ddd237b3cea359046601980dcd07680fc036d44a23d378585aecb9259620a621cdc>
password owyheeflyer
Flying times have been few and far between this year. In fact it got to be
so normal that having crappy weather was normal and, I missed what ever
windows of opportunity that might have been viable. It appears that things
are looking up a bit, so here you go.
Larry
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition |
Rick,
I don't agree with your thinking at all. If steel rivets are badly corroded I
don't think they should be used. If you replace them with steel rivets they are
just going to corrode again. I don't see any problem with replacing them with
SS rivets. Just because steel was used initially is no reason not to improve
them if you can. I am not aware that the clamping force of steel rivets is
any weaker than SS rivets. If you have that data please let me know.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489499#489499
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition |
I like alodine; it really is liquid magic for protecting aluminum. But
it really is a pain to use, since the aluminum must be squeaky clean
with absolutely no oils or foreign matter of any sort for the etch to
work, and then for the alodine to work. And its hazards shouldn't be
ignored.
https://www.chemical-supermarket.com/files/Henkel%20Alodine%20Conversion%20Coatings/1201%20Alodine,%20MSDS.pdf
You need a well ventilated area and good skin/eye protection, but what
isn't often mentioned is that exposure to sunlight quickly kills its
effectiveness.
If you do decide to use it, try to find the powder form (like instant
Tang; you mix it yourself) instead of the liquid. Much cheaper to ship,
and more importantly *much* cheaper to purchase, if you can find it in
small enough quantities. Most vendors want to sell you many pounds at a
time, when around a half pound of the powder would last through many
projects (if the mix is kept away from sunlight and in a light-proof
container when not in use).
If it were mine, I'd do what I did to the old Twinstar I basket case I
restored: Clean it up well with a good degreaser & scrubber (stainless
if you use a metal brush; Scotchbrite pads work fine too), then paint
with rattle-can self-etching primer. This:
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MSR7220
is easy to find and very effective, but there are lots of other products
that work just as well. If you ask, they may tell you the next on-sale
dates, so you can save a few bucks a can.
Charlie
On 6/4/2019 11:28 AM, Jerry-TS-MkII wrote:
>
> Looks like good advise from all of the other replies. I too would be concerned
about using a Cuyuna engine. (Like.. do I make a cool go-cart out of it, or
use it as a boat anchor??). I'm not a Cuyuna fan, but you probably didn't notice.
>
> I'm surprised no one has mentioned Alodine. It is a non-electrically applied surface preparation, which treats the aluminum as if it has been anodized, only a thinner surface layer. And I believe your parts would need to be disassembled to do a proper job. One link adds some details. https://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/aluminum-corrosion-treatment.php Normally it is applied by dipping the parts, although I have done constant flow over some parts, and believe that was with success. I've used plastic gutters for straight tubing dip tanks.. and with a different job, used 4 PVC 4" drain tile tubes.. one for etch, one for Alodine, and two for water rinse. All in one frame holding them vertical, but each one removable. Worked great.
>
> As others have mentioned.. your disassemble efforts could be significant, if
you go that route. I agree, but also agree in the removal of any rivet heads
that end up inside a structure. Complete disassembly does make that and Alodine
application easier.. its just twice as much work as building one initially.
>
> I don't know a lot about the early Kolbs.. but I'd have to wonder why SS rivets
were not used initially.. unless someone was cutting corners.
>
> Best Wishes, Jerry
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition |
On 6/4/2019 3:33 PM, Rex Rodebush wrote:
>
> Rick,
>
> I don't agree with your thinking at all. If steel rivets are badly corroded
I don't think they should be used. If you replace them with steel rivets they
are just going to corrode again. I don't see any problem with replacing them
with SS rivets. Just because steel was used initially is no reason not to improve
them if you can. I am not aware that the clamping force of steel rivets
is any weaker than SS rivets. If you have that data please let me know.
>
You might want to reconsider. There are dozens ( likely hundreds) of
different types of pulled rivets. Various alloys of steel, various
alloys of stainless, various alloys of aluminum, various materials and
alloys used for the mandrel, various *types* of pulled rivets in each
material type (some capture the mandrel, which plays a role in shear
strength, while some do not, for example), various head sizes, various
head shapes, then there are true structural pulled rivets ...
Those are just off the top of my head (pardon the pun). When you change
a structural fastener, you need to at least have confidence that the
replacement meets or exceeds the strength of the original, and doesn't
'violate' some other requirement that the a/c designer might not have
detailed for you. I think that if you do some research, you'll find that
many stainless pulled rivets are significantly weaker than the same
size/design in steel.
That plane was apparently stored in a really hostile environment. If the
replacement steel rivets were dipped in a bit of rust inhibiting primer
before being pulled, they'd likely outlast the rest of the plane if it's
kept in a sensible environment. The Twinstar I I restored is about 35
years old, and while there was some surface rust on the steel rivets,
they were in great shape, as was the aluminum, with only one exceptional
point on one wing. Likely had a mouse or rat's nest at that spot while
it was in storage.
I'm not recommending this to the OP; I can't see his project or choose
his risk tolerance. But if I had confidence that none of the rivets
looked any worse than the one pictured, I'd be tempted to clean it up,
paint with self-etch primer, and then spray everything down with a good
penetrating corrosion inhibitor. The certified world has some corrosion
inhibiting products that will seep into every crack, crevice, or opening
they touch. Not saying to use this one; just the 1st product name I
remembered. I think it was what we used on the old '46 Luscombe 8A that
taught me to fly.
http://www.corrosionx.com/corrosionx-aviation.html
Charlie
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|