---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/04/19: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:07 AM - Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (shaypete) 2. 09:28 AM - Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Jerry-TS-MkII) 3. 10:18 AM - Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Rex Rodebush) 4. 10:57 AM - Re: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Richard Girard) 5. 11:16 AM - video (Larry Cottrell) 6. 01:33 PM - Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Rex Rodebush) 7. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Charlie England) 8. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:26 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition From: "shaypete" Thank you top all that have responded. I drilled out a rivet as some of you had suggested and would appreciate your opinions . I added a picture of the rivet on the link posted in my initial thread. Below a link to the Rivet picture https://photos.app.goo.gl/N4vr3GxbQyiQScYaA -------- Peter Raleigh, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489489#489489 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:28 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition From: "Jerry-TS-MkII" <12flybellaire@gmail.com> Looks like good advise from all of the other replies. I too would be concerned about using a Cuyuna engine. (Like.. do I make a cool go-cart out of it, or use it as a boat anchor??). I'm not a Cuyuna fan, but you probably didn't notice. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Alodine. It is a non-electrically applied surface preparation, which treats the aluminum as if it has been anodized, only a thinner surface layer. And I believe your parts would need to be disassembled to do a proper job. One link adds some details. https://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/aluminum-corrosion-treatment.php Normally it is applied by dipping the parts, although I have done constant flow over some parts, and believe that was with success. I've used plastic gutters for straight tubing dip tanks.. and with a different job, used 4 PVC 4" drain tile tubes.. one for etch, one for Alodine, and two for water rinse. All in one frame holding them vertical, but each one removable. Worked great. As others have mentioned.. your disassemble efforts could be significant, if you go that route. I agree, but also agree in the removal of any rivet heads that end up inside a structure. Complete disassembly does make that and Alodine application easier.. its just twice as much work as building one initially. I don't know a lot about the early Kolbs.. but I'd have to wonder why SS rivets were not used initially.. unless someone was cutting corners. Best Wishes, Jerry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489494#489494 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:39 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition From: "Rex Rodebush" Peter, Sometimes guys would dip the steel rivet in heavy oil or paint to protect it from corrosion before pulling. It looks like this was not the case with yours. I would strongly consider drilling out the rivets and replacing with SS. As one other person mentioned; drilling out steel rivets is much easier than drilling out SS rivets and if you keep a sharp bit it should go fairly fast. Also, unless your're built like Popeye invest in a pneumatic puller from Harbor Freight before installing the SS rivets. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489496#489496 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:36 AM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition Rex et al, Really, REALLY Bad ideas being tossed about any containment by the thought process. The rivets are steel, NOT stainless steel. They are used because Homer was trying to make a legal ultralight. He had plenty of strength in the thin wall aluminum tubing. He needed an attachment that was just strong enough to pull the rivet to the recommended dimension and strength without having it distort the aluminum structure. Stainless steel rivets are not some sort of cure all. Even my Firestar, with its .028 wall thickness tubing uses plain steel rivets for the same exact reason. Treat the corrosion per your favorite product and application method then make all attachments per the original builders manual. Barring that, replace with what you found. Rick Girard On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 12:21 PM Rex Rodebush wrote: > > Peter, > > Sometimes guys would dip the steel rivet in heavy oil or paint to protect > it from corrosion before pulling. It looks like this was not the case wi th > yours. I would strongly consider drilling out the rivets and replacing > with SS. As one other person mentioned; drilling out steel rivets is muc h > easier than drilling out SS rivets and if you keep a sharp bit it should go > fairly fast. Also, unless your're built like Popeye invest in a pneumati c > puller from Harbor Freight before installing the SS rivets. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489496#489496 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:10 AM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Kolb-List: video https://vimeo.com/339877641 password owyheeflyer Flying times have been few and far between this year. In fact it got to be so normal that having crappy weather was normal and, I missed what ever windows of opportunity that might have been viable. It appears that things are looking up a bit, so here you go. Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:41 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition From: "Rex Rodebush" Rick, I don't agree with your thinking at all. If steel rivets are badly corroded I don't think they should be used. If you replace them with steel rivets they are just going to corrode again. I don't see any problem with replacing them with SS rivets. Just because steel was used initially is no reason not to improve them if you can. I am not aware that the clamping force of steel rivets is any weaker than SS rivets. If you have that data please let me know. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489499#489499 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition From: Charlie England I like alodine; it really is liquid magic for protecting aluminum. But it really is a pain to use, since the aluminum must be squeaky clean with absolutely no oils or foreign matter of any sort for the etch to work, and then for the alodine to work. And its hazards shouldn't be ignored. https://www.chemical-supermarket.com/files/Henkel%20Alodine%20Conversion%20Coatings/1201%20Alodine,%20MSDS.pdf You need a well ventilated area and good skin/eye protection, but what isn't often mentioned is that exposure to sunlight quickly kills its effectiveness. If you do decide to use it, try to find the powder form (like instant Tang; you mix it yourself) instead of the liquid. Much cheaper to ship, and more importantly *much* cheaper to purchase, if you can find it in small enough quantities. Most vendors want to sell you many pounds at a time, when around a half pound of the powder would last through many projects (if the mix is kept away from sunlight and in a light-proof container when not in use). If it were mine, I'd do what I did to the old Twinstar I basket case I restored: Clean it up well with a good degreaser & scrubber (stainless if you use a metal brush; Scotchbrite pads work fine too), then paint with rattle-can self-etching primer. This: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MSR7220 is easy to find and very effective, but there are lots of other products that work just as well. If you ask, they may tell you the next on-sale dates, so you can save a few bucks a can. Charlie On 6/4/2019 11:28 AM, Jerry-TS-MkII wrote: > > Looks like good advise from all of the other replies. I too would be concerned about using a Cuyuna engine. (Like.. do I make a cool go-cart out of it, or use it as a boat anchor??). I'm not a Cuyuna fan, but you probably didn't notice. > > I'm surprised no one has mentioned Alodine. It is a non-electrically applied surface preparation, which treats the aluminum as if it has been anodized, only a thinner surface layer. And I believe your parts would need to be disassembled to do a proper job. One link adds some details. https://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/aluminum-corrosion-treatment.php Normally it is applied by dipping the parts, although I have done constant flow over some parts, and believe that was with success. I've used plastic gutters for straight tubing dip tanks.. and with a different job, used 4 PVC 4" drain tile tubes.. one for etch, one for Alodine, and two for water rinse. All in one frame holding them vertical, but each one removable. Worked great. > > As others have mentioned.. your disassemble efforts could be significant, if you go that route. I agree, but also agree in the removal of any rivet heads that end up inside a structure. Complete disassembly does make that and Alodine application easier.. its just twice as much work as building one initially. > > I don't know a lot about the early Kolbs.. but I'd have to wonder why SS rivets were not used initially.. unless someone was cutting corners. > > Best Wishes, Jerry > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Ultrstar Wing Condition From: Charlie England On 6/4/2019 3:33 PM, Rex Rodebush wrote: > > Rick, > > I don't agree with your thinking at all. If steel rivets are badly corroded I don't think they should be used. If you replace them with steel rivets they are just going to corrode again. I don't see any problem with replacing them with SS rivets. Just because steel was used initially is no reason not to improve them if you can. I am not aware that the clamping force of steel rivets is any weaker than SS rivets. If you have that data please let me know. > You might want to reconsider. There are dozens ( likely hundreds) of different types of pulled rivets. Various alloys of steel, various alloys of stainless, various alloys of aluminum, various materials and alloys used for the mandrel, various *types* of pulled rivets in each material type (some capture the mandrel, which plays a role in shear strength, while some do not, for example), various head sizes, various head shapes, then there are true structural pulled rivets ... Those are just off the top of my head (pardon the pun). When you change a structural fastener, you need to at least have confidence that the replacement meets or exceeds the strength of the original, and doesn't 'violate' some other requirement that the a/c designer might not have detailed for you. I think that if you do some research, you'll find that many stainless pulled rivets are significantly weaker than the same size/design in steel. That plane was apparently stored in a really hostile environment. If the replacement steel rivets were dipped in a bit of rust inhibiting primer before being pulled, they'd likely outlast the rest of the plane if it's kept in a sensible environment. The Twinstar I I restored is about 35 years old, and while there was some surface rust on the steel rivets, they were in great shape, as was the aluminum, with only one exceptional point on one wing. Likely had a mouse or rat's nest at that spot while it was in storage. I'm not recommending this to the OP; I can't see his project or choose his risk tolerance. But if I had confidence that none of the rivets looked any worse than the one pictured, I'd be tempted to clean it up, paint with self-etch primer, and then spray everything down with a good penetrating corrosion inhibitor. The certified world has some corrosion inhibiting products that will seep into every crack, crevice, or opening they touch. Not saying to use this one; just the 1st product name I remembered. I think it was what we used on the old '46 Luscombe 8A that taught me to fly. http://www.corrosionx.com/corrosionx-aviation.html Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.