Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (B Young)
2. 11:06 AM - Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (jaydub)
3. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (william sullivan)
4. 11:54 AM - Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (Robert Laird)
5. 12:58 PM - Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (Larry Cottrell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs |
I've held off answering the questions because I have not flown anything but
my mkiii.
When trying to decide what engine, a larger 2 stroke or the 912, i was
told by Dennis Souder, that the 912 burned less fuel than the 2 stroke,
had better reliability, less maintenance, and more power. At 1500 hours
the cost of ownership for both engines would be the same. Down side is a
bit heavier.
Boyd Young
Kolb mkiii 912
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs |
[quote="Richard Pike"]I am thinking that you are not getting any response because
you are coming across as already knowing too many of your own many answers
for the questions you are asking. But just trying to be a nice guy here.../quote]
Hi Richard, Thanks for replying. I hate written words as there is no way to know
the tone of the writer nor what perspective they are coming from. This is often
misread.
I have some presuppositions with my 2 questions but I am old enough to know my
conclusion may just be MY conclusion and others may have way different experiences.
So while I THINK something is one way, those that have flown Kolbs may
be able to tell me my presuppositions are wrong. Perhaps my experiences with
both light and heavy CGS Hawks in various configurations don't transfer over to
the Kolbs even though they look similar.
If you knew me you'd know I'm not arrogant and am very teachable. I have some
experiences that I could be arrogant about but that accomplishes nothing. I
came here because I want to learn what does and doesn't work within the realm
of Kolbs.
Sorry if the written words didn't convey that.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494340#494340
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs |
Bookmark this, and take the time to read carefully. Jack Hart has given everybody
a very valuable resource.
http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly.html
Bill Sullivan
On Saturday, January 18, 2020, 2:06:39 PM EST, jaydub <bearhawk@gmx.com> wrote:
[quote="Richard Pike"]I am thinking that you are not getting any response because
you are coming across as already knowing too many of your own many answers
for the questions you are asking. But just trying to be a nice guy here.../quote]
Hi Richard, Thanks for replying. I hate written words as there is no way to know
the tone of the writer nor what perspective they are coming from. This is often
misread.
I have some presuppositions with my 2 questions but I am old enough to know my
conclusion may just be MY conclusion and others may have way different experiences.
So while I THINK something is one way, those that have flown Kolbs may be
able to tell me my presuppositions are wrong. Perhaps my experiences with both
light and heavy CGS Hawks in various configurations don't transfer over to
the Kolbs even though they look similar.
If you knew me you'd know I'm not arrogant and am very teachable. I have some experiences
that I could be arrogant about but that accomplishes nothing. I came
here because I want to learn what does and doesn't work within the realm of
Kolbs.
Sorry if the written words didn't convey that.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494340#494340
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs |
Just as background, I've flown a Firefly, a Firestar 2, and owned a MkIIIC
for 10+ years (recently sold).
Re: question #1: Although I never flew a Twinstar, based on your question
I'd have to say it would be the best of all your options... when answering
just this question.
Re: question #2: I flew with someone in my MkIIIC about 5% of the time,
the rest of it was by myself.
If you will only be flying 2-up on rare occasions, the Firestar 2 -- while
a bit uncomfortable for the passenger -- would be IMO the best option for
you, using a 503 or 582.
However, if you really want something that will go the distance in terms of
fun to fly, will handle 2-up easily, and last many, many years, I'd say a
MkIII with an 80hp Rotax 4-cycle engine would be the best combination.
-- Robert
On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 9:47 PM jaydub <bearhawk@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> I have 2 questions for those of you that have flown various Kolb models.
> I'm looking into many different brands/types of planes but the Kolb folding
> wing/tail is genius and the thought of keeping it at home without hangar
> rent is ideal. I'm looking to buy a used Kolb but not sure on the model so
> I have 2 questions:
>
> 1. Which 2 seater with the air cooled smaller rotaxs (447 or 503) work
> best for low and slow flying with 2 people? I'm not looking at the Kolbra,
> Markiii series because their powerplants make them a lot more money in the
> used market and are bit costlier to run and maintain (at least in my mind).
>
> 2. I've owned a 2 seat Piper Colt and I found I mostly flew alone 90% of
> the time. If you have a 2 seat Kolb, how often do you fly with another
> person?
>
> I may be wrong but it seems the Firestar II would be cramped with 2
> people. The Twinstar Mkii might work better. I would like to enclose
> whichever I go with. I might just forget 2 seats and go with a used
> Firefly and keep it part 103 legal. I'm just looking for thoughts. I do
> live in windy WY and it looks like all the Kolbs handle wind pretty well.
>
> About me, I have over 400 hours experience in a CGS Hawk taildragger with
> a 447 I built in 91 and sold in 97. I also have about 2400 hours in
> different GA planes. My Hawk "UL" weighed in fat at 305lbs but was a
> rocketship with the 447 and loads of fun because it was fairly lightly
> loaded. I have flown very heavy CGS Hawks (503 and 582 powered) and didn't
> care for them as they didn't flit and float well and just felt sluggish due
> to the added weight. I don't mind the aircooled Rotaxs other than they are
> noisy (and parts will get harder to find now that they stopped making them)
> but my 447 with a 60x40 Culver wood prop burned 1.5 gph at a slow 55mph
> cruise. Been too many years to remember the RPMs. I'm looking to regain
> that type of flying of low, slow, flitting around barely sipping gas, but
> with the folding wings/tail of the Kolb.
>
> Any thoughts are welcome for those of you that have flown many models of
> the Kolbs. Also, if you know of any project planes (not finished or need
> refurbished) I'm all ears.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494243#494243
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs |
To continue with this line of questions, it all depends on your weight and
the weight of the passenger as well as the particular Kolb as to whether it
is fun or even safe.
My experience is with only the Mark three with a 582 and one with an 80 HP
engine. I currently have a Firestar II with an HKS, and before that a 503-
and a 447. I generally weigh around 220. I have flown passengers up to 180
lbs. The areas that I have flown these planes with passengers have all been
above 4000 feet.
While my passengers might have enjoyed these flights they were not nearly
as much fun for me, as they were right at the edge of safe flight, in my
opinion. In other words it was a lot like having a passenger in a Cessna
150. You can do it, but you are required a lot of thought, care and
planning. This is all concerning a Firestar II. The plane will do it, but
it requires careful planning, and careful flight, and performance suffers
with each additional pound of weight.
The Mark 3 handled another passenger OK, but it was about as much fun as
driving a Bus. Just this last year I helped a fella on the list get used to
his Mark 3 with an 80 HP rotax. This was a step up from the 582, but it was
still a bus! A 100 HP engine would alleviate that feeling a lot. The 80 HP
was like a rocket ship with just him in the plane, and with my 220 in the
other seat it was a bus.
Of course one of my problems with flying two up is the weight of the
aircraft, as well as the lard in my own butt. The other is the type of
flying I like to do as well. If your idea of a good time is to get to
altitude and go from point A to point B none of what I am writing here
weighs that heavily on the problems that I have listed here. The higher you
are the more time you have to deal with the problems of heavy flight. The
higher I am the more bored I feel.
For whatever reason my current plane weighs in at 400 lbs. Add 60 lbs of
fuel, 220 for the pilot, and you are getting close to the gross limit as
listed by Kolb. Now if you have kept the weight of your craft down and you
are naturally a little "wormy" and desiccated, and the cutie next to you
weighs about 120, we are talking a different result. The real key is the
gross weight of it all.
You mentioned wind and Wyoming I believe. I have flown mine with as much as
a 30 mph tail wind and I can tell you that it isn't fun even by yourself. I
have found that a 5 mph wind is about all I am capable of enjoying. The
plane can handle it with just me in it, but it is not fun.
As I have gotten older I have discovered that it is best to buy exactly
what it is that you want the first time and to err on the side of decadence
when ever possible.
If you are looking for a recommendation as to what you should do concerning
this matter, My recommendation to you is to is get a nice Mark III with at
least a 100 hp. The bigger engine will give you enough power that you can
pretty much carry any passenger within reason and still have enough of a
safety margin that you can relax and enjoy the flight as much as your
passenger. If you do get the urge to show up here at our fall fly in, that
is possible as well.
Good luck!
Larry
On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:57 PM Robert Laird <rlaird@cavediver.com> wrote:
> Just as background, I've flown a Firefly, a Firestar 2, and owned a MkIIIC
> for 10+ years (recently sold).
>
> Re: question #1: Although I never flew a Twinstar, based on your question
> I'd have to say it would be the best of all your options... when answering
> just this question.
>
> Re: question #2: I flew with someone in my MkIIIC about 5% of the time,
> the rest of it was by myself.
>
> If you will only be flying 2-up on rare occasions, the Firestar 2 -- while
> a bit uncomfortable for the passenger -- would be IMO the best option for
> you, using a 503 or 582.
>
> However, if you really want something that will go the distance in terms
> of fun to fly, will handle 2-up easily, and last many, many years, I'd say
> a MkIII with an 80hp Rotax 4-cycle engine would be the best combination.
>
> -- Robert
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 9:47 PM jaydub <bearhawk@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have 2 questions for those of you that have flown various Kolb models.
>> I'm looking into many different brands/types of planes but the Kolb folding
>> wing/tail is genius and the thought of keeping it at home without hangar
>> rent is ideal. I'm looking to buy a used Kolb but not sure on the model so
>> I have 2 questions:
>>
>> 1. Which 2 seater with the air cooled smaller rotaxs (447 or 503) work
>> best for low and slow flying with 2 people? I'm not looking at the Kolbra,
>> Markiii series because their powerplants make them a lot more money in the
>> used market and are bit costlier to run and maintain (at least in my mind).
>>
>> 2. I've owned a 2 seat Piper Colt and I found I mostly flew alone 90% of
>> the time. If you have a 2 seat Kolb, how often do you fly with another
>> person?
>>
>> I may be wrong but it seems the Firestar II would be cramped with 2
>> people. The Twinstar Mkii might work better. I would like to enclose
>> whichever I go with. I might just forget 2 seats and go with a used
>> Firefly and keep it part 103 legal. I'm just looking for thoughts. I do
>> live in windy WY and it looks like all the Kolbs handle wind pretty well.
>>
>> About me, I have over 400 hours experience in a CGS Hawk taildragger with
>> a 447 I built in 91 and sold in 97. I also have about 2400 hours in
>> different GA planes. My Hawk "UL" weighed in fat at 305lbs but was a
>> rocketship with the 447 and loads of fun because it was fairly lightly
>> loaded. I have flown very heavy CGS Hawks (503 and 582 powered) and didn't
>> care for them as they didn't flit and float well and just felt sluggish due
>> to the added weight. I don't mind the aircooled Rotaxs other than they are
>> noisy (and parts will get harder to find now that they stopped making them)
>> but my 447 with a 60x40 Culver wood prop burned 1.5 gph at a slow 55mph
>> cruise. Been too many years to remember the RPMs. I'm looking to regain
>> that type of flying of low, slow, flitting around barely sipping gas, but
>> with the folding wings/tail of the Kolb.
>>
>> Any thoughts are welcome for those of you that have flown many models of
>> the Kolbs. Also, if you know of any project planes (not finished or need
>> refurbished) I'm all ears.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494243#494243
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> br> fts!)
>> r> > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
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