---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/18/20: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (B Young) 2. 11:06 AM - Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (jaydub) 3. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (william sullivan) 4. 11:54 AM - Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (Robert Laird) 5. 12:58 PM - Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:59 AM PST US From: B Young Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs I've held off answering the questions because I have not flown anything but my mkiii. When trying to decide what engine, a larger 2 stroke or the 912, i was told by Dennis Souder, that the 912 burned less fuel than the 2 stroke, had better reliability, less maintenance, and more power. At 1500 hours the cost of ownership for both engines would be the same. Down side is a bit heavier. Boyd Young Kolb mkiii 912 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:20 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs From: "jaydub" [quote="Richard Pike"]I am thinking that you are not getting any response because you are coming across as already knowing too many of your own many answers for the questions you are asking. But just trying to be a nice guy here.../quote] Hi Richard, Thanks for replying. I hate written words as there is no way to know the tone of the writer nor what perspective they are coming from. This is often misread. I have some presuppositions with my 2 questions but I am old enough to know my conclusion may just be MY conclusion and others may have way different experiences. So while I THINK something is one way, those that have flown Kolbs may be able to tell me my presuppositions are wrong. Perhaps my experiences with both light and heavy CGS Hawks in various configurations don't transfer over to the Kolbs even though they look similar. If you knew me you'd know I'm not arrogant and am very teachable. I have some experiences that I could be arrogant about but that accomplishes nothing. I came here because I want to learn what does and doesn't work within the realm of Kolbs. Sorry if the written words didn't convey that. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494340#494340 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:54 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs Bookmark this, and take the time to read carefully. Jack Hart has given everybody a very valuable resource. http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly.html Bill Sullivan On Saturday, January 18, 2020, 2:06:39 PM EST, jaydub wrote: [quote="Richard Pike"]I am thinking that you are not getting any response because you are coming across as already knowing too many of your own many answers for the questions you are asking. But just trying to be a nice guy here.../quote] Hi Richard, Thanks for replying. I hate written words as there is no way to know the tone of the writer nor what perspective they are coming from. This is often misread. I have some presuppositions with my 2 questions but I am old enough to know my conclusion may just be MY conclusion and others may have way different experiences. So while I THINK something is one way, those that have flown Kolbs may be able to tell me my presuppositions are wrong. Perhaps my experiences with both light and heavy CGS Hawks in various configurations don't transfer over to the Kolbs even though they look similar. If you knew me you'd know I'm not arrogant and am very teachable. I have some experiences that I could be arrogant about but that accomplishes nothing. I came here because I want to learn what does and doesn't work within the realm of Kolbs. Sorry if the written words didn't convey that. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494340#494340 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:30 AM PST US From: Robert Laird Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs Just as background, I've flown a Firefly, a Firestar 2, and owned a MkIIIC for 10+ years (recently sold). Re: question #1: Although I never flew a Twinstar, based on your question I'd have to say it would be the best of all your options... when answering just this question. Re: question #2: I flew with someone in my MkIIIC about 5% of the time, the rest of it was by myself. If you will only be flying 2-up on rare occasions, the Firestar 2 -- while a bit uncomfortable for the passenger -- would be IMO the best option for you, using a 503 or 582. However, if you really want something that will go the distance in terms of fun to fly, will handle 2-up easily, and last many, many years, I'd say a MkIII with an 80hp Rotax 4-cycle engine would be the best combination. -- Robert On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 9:47 PM jaydub wrote: > > I have 2 questions for those of you that have flown various Kolb models. > I'm looking into many different brands/types of planes but the Kolb folding > wing/tail is genius and the thought of keeping it at home without hangar > rent is ideal. I'm looking to buy a used Kolb but not sure on the model so > I have 2 questions: > > 1. Which 2 seater with the air cooled smaller rotaxs (447 or 503) work > best for low and slow flying with 2 people? I'm not looking at the Kolbra, > Markiii series because their powerplants make them a lot more money in the > used market and are bit costlier to run and maintain (at least in my mind). > > 2. I've owned a 2 seat Piper Colt and I found I mostly flew alone 90% of > the time. If you have a 2 seat Kolb, how often do you fly with another > person? > > I may be wrong but it seems the Firestar II would be cramped with 2 > people. The Twinstar Mkii might work better. I would like to enclose > whichever I go with. I might just forget 2 seats and go with a used > Firefly and keep it part 103 legal. I'm just looking for thoughts. I do > live in windy WY and it looks like all the Kolbs handle wind pretty well. > > About me, I have over 400 hours experience in a CGS Hawk taildragger with > a 447 I built in 91 and sold in 97. I also have about 2400 hours in > different GA planes. My Hawk "UL" weighed in fat at 305lbs but was a > rocketship with the 447 and loads of fun because it was fairly lightly > loaded. I have flown very heavy CGS Hawks (503 and 582 powered) and didn't > care for them as they didn't flit and float well and just felt sluggish due > to the added weight. I don't mind the aircooled Rotaxs other than they are > noisy (and parts will get harder to find now that they stopped making them) > but my 447 with a 60x40 Culver wood prop burned 1.5 gph at a slow 55mph > cruise. Been too many years to remember the RPMs. I'm looking to regain > that type of flying of low, slow, flitting around barely sipping gas, but > with the folding wings/tail of the Kolb. > > Any thoughts are welcome for those of you that have flown many models of > the Kolbs. Also, if you know of any project planes (not finished or need > refurbished) I'm all ears. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494243#494243 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:30 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 Questions about 2 seat Kolbs To continue with this line of questions, it all depends on your weight and the weight of the passenger as well as the particular Kolb as to whether it is fun or even safe. My experience is with only the Mark three with a 582 and one with an 80 HP engine. I currently have a Firestar II with an HKS, and before that a 503- and a 447. I generally weigh around 220. I have flown passengers up to 180 lbs. The areas that I have flown these planes with passengers have all been above 4000 feet. While my passengers might have enjoyed these flights they were not nearly as much fun for me, as they were right at the edge of safe flight, in my opinion. In other words it was a lot like having a passenger in a Cessna 150. You can do it, but you are required a lot of thought, care and planning. This is all concerning a Firestar II. The plane will do it, but it requires careful planning, and careful flight, and performance suffers with each additional pound of weight. The Mark 3 handled another passenger OK, but it was about as much fun as driving a Bus. Just this last year I helped a fella on the list get used to his Mark 3 with an 80 HP rotax. This was a step up from the 582, but it was still a bus! A 100 HP engine would alleviate that feeling a lot. The 80 HP was like a rocket ship with just him in the plane, and with my 220 in the other seat it was a bus. Of course one of my problems with flying two up is the weight of the aircraft, as well as the lard in my own butt. The other is the type of flying I like to do as well. If your idea of a good time is to get to altitude and go from point A to point B none of what I am writing here weighs that heavily on the problems that I have listed here. The higher you are the more time you have to deal with the problems of heavy flight. The higher I am the more bored I feel. For whatever reason my current plane weighs in at 400 lbs. Add 60 lbs of fuel, 220 for the pilot, and you are getting close to the gross limit as listed by Kolb. Now if you have kept the weight of your craft down and you are naturally a little "wormy" and desiccated, and the cutie next to you weighs about 120, we are talking a different result. The real key is the gross weight of it all. You mentioned wind and Wyoming I believe. I have flown mine with as much as a 30 mph tail wind and I can tell you that it isn't fun even by yourself. I have found that a 5 mph wind is about all I am capable of enjoying. The plane can handle it with just me in it, but it is not fun. As I have gotten older I have discovered that it is best to buy exactly what it is that you want the first time and to err on the side of decadence when ever possible. If you are looking for a recommendation as to what you should do concerning this matter, My recommendation to you is to is get a nice Mark III with at least a 100 hp. The bigger engine will give you enough power that you can pretty much carry any passenger within reason and still have enough of a safety margin that you can relax and enjoy the flight as much as your passenger. If you do get the urge to show up here at our fall fly in, that is possible as well. Good luck! Larry On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:57 PM Robert Laird wrote: > Just as background, I've flown a Firefly, a Firestar 2, and owned a MkIIIC > for 10+ years (recently sold). > > Re: question #1: Although I never flew a Twinstar, based on your question > I'd have to say it would be the best of all your options... when answering > just this question. > > Re: question #2: I flew with someone in my MkIIIC about 5% of the time, > the rest of it was by myself. > > If you will only be flying 2-up on rare occasions, the Firestar 2 -- while > a bit uncomfortable for the passenger -- would be IMO the best option for > you, using a 503 or 582. > > However, if you really want something that will go the distance in terms > of fun to fly, will handle 2-up easily, and last many, many years, I'd say > a MkIII with an 80hp Rotax 4-cycle engine would be the best combination. > > -- Robert > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 9:47 PM jaydub wrote: > >> >> I have 2 questions for those of you that have flown various Kolb models. >> I'm looking into many different brands/types of planes but the Kolb folding >> wing/tail is genius and the thought of keeping it at home without hangar >> rent is ideal. I'm looking to buy a used Kolb but not sure on the model so >> I have 2 questions: >> >> 1. Which 2 seater with the air cooled smaller rotaxs (447 or 503) work >> best for low and slow flying with 2 people? I'm not looking at the Kolbra, >> Markiii series because their powerplants make them a lot more money in the >> used market and are bit costlier to run and maintain (at least in my mind). >> >> 2. I've owned a 2 seat Piper Colt and I found I mostly flew alone 90% of >> the time. If you have a 2 seat Kolb, how often do you fly with another >> person? >> >> I may be wrong but it seems the Firestar II would be cramped with 2 >> people. The Twinstar Mkii might work better. I would like to enclose >> whichever I go with. I might just forget 2 seats and go with a used >> Firefly and keep it part 103 legal. I'm just looking for thoughts. I do >> live in windy WY and it looks like all the Kolbs handle wind pretty well. >> >> About me, I have over 400 hours experience in a CGS Hawk taildragger with >> a 447 I built in 91 and sold in 97. I also have about 2400 hours in >> different GA planes. My Hawk "UL" weighed in fat at 305lbs but was a >> rocketship with the 447 and loads of fun because it was fairly lightly >> loaded. I have flown very heavy CGS Hawks (503 and 582 powered) and didn't >> care for them as they didn't flit and float well and just felt sluggish due >> to the added weight. I don't mind the aircooled Rotaxs other than they are >> noisy (and parts will get harder to find now that they stopped making them) >> but my 447 with a 60x40 Culver wood prop burned 1.5 gph at a slow 55mph >> cruise. Been too many years to remember the RPMs. I'm looking to regain >> that type of flying of low, slow, flitting around barely sipping gas, but >> with the folding wings/tail of the Kolb. >> >> Any thoughts are welcome for those of you that have flown many models of >> the Kolbs. Also, if you know of any project planes (not finished or need >> refurbished) I'm all ears. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494243#494243 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> br> fts!) >> r> > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ========== >> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.