Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:57 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/28/21 (Peter Cowan)
2. 06:24 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/28/21 (Peter Cowan)
3. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/28/21 (John Hauck)
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/28/21 |
That's excellent, Rich.
The cost to fix the problem is all of .8 hp.
I'm more than willing to give up that to have no thrust issues.
thanks
On Wed., Sep. 29, 2021, 2:40 a.m. Kolb-List Digest Server, <
kolb-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 21-09-28&Archive=Kolb
>
> Text Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 21-09-28&Archive=Kolb
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Kolb-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Tue 09/28/21: 5
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 04:24 AM - Re: Reducing power on take off versus thrust line.
> (Richard Halstrick)
> 2. 05:24 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/26/21 (Peter Cowan)
> 3. 05:47 AM - Thrustline again. (Peter Cowan)
> 4. 06:48 AM - Re: Thrustline again. (John Hauck)
> 5. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/26/21 (Rick
> Neilsen)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:24:20 AM PST US
> From: Richard Halstrick <rhalstrick@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Reducing power on take off versus thrust line.
>
> The changes pitch force produced by the engine in an airplane is a result
> of the distance ABOVE or BELOW the CG of the plane. Engines mounted above
> the CG of the airplane produce a moment (twisting force) opposite to the
> force produced by the elevator and airplanes with low mounted engines (jets
> with engines under the wings) produce a force that compliments the elevator
> ..
>
>
> The moment produced is just the perpendicular component of thrust to the CG
> multiplied by the distance from the CG. Tilting an engine up 6 degrees
> when it is located above and behind the CG will aggravate the situation by
> increasing the lever arm of the thrust to the CG. Tilting it down 6 degrees
> will decrease the moment by decreasing the forward component of thrust by
> the cosine of the angle (6 degrees would be about 1%).
>
>
> I=99m new to this forum and in the spirit of full disclosure, I do no
> t own a
> Kolb aircraft and have never rode in one. I ordered a Twinstar last year
> and hope to start building it this month when I receive it from the factory
> ..
>
>
> Rich Halstrick
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:24:54 AM PST US
> From: Peter Cowan <cowan.phc@gmail.com>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/26/21
>
> Rick, I get your point about forces at the tail having more leverage than
> forces closer to the wings. I don't know how this would compare from an
> efficiency point of view. I am not an aero engineer either. But I go back
> and forth between pushers and tractors and I'd kind of like to have planes
> that fly similarly. So I want a plane where power on makes you go up and
> power off lets you go down and it seems to be easy to get that with down
> thrust.
> If you were into model airplanes you remember that the first thing you'd do
> is trim the plane to glide nicely. Then adjust the engine thrust. That's
> about what I'm doing.
> p
>
> On Mon., Sep. 27, 2021, 2:40 a.m. Kolb-List Digest Server, <
> kolb-list@matronics.com> wrote:
>
> > *
> >
> > ================================================
> > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ================================================
> >
> > Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> > of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> > such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> >
> > HTML Version:
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
> 21-09-26&Archive=Kolb
> >
> > Text Version:
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
> 21-09-26&Archive=Kolb
> >
> >
> > ==============================================
> > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ==============================================
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Kolb-List Digest Archive
> > ---
> > Total Messages Posted Sun 09/26/21: 1
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Today's Message Index:
> > ----------------------
> >
> > 1. 11:25 AM - Re: Reducing power on take off versus thrust line.
> > (Rick Neilsen)
> >
> >
> > ________________________________ Message 1
> > _____________________________________
> >
> >
> > Time: 11:25:41 AM PST US
> > From: Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Reducing power on take off versus thrust line.
> >
> > Food for thought. Setting the engine/prop thrust line so that any of it
> is
> > pushing the plane down on a Kolb just doesn't seem to make the best use
> of
> > available thrust. Kolb airplanes have a high thrust line in relation to
> the
> > center of drag. You talk about setting about 6 degrees up thrust so that
> it
> > reduces the pitch down effect of adding power. The amount of thrust
> > necessary to push the tail down by the prop thrust must be huge. The prop
> > is a short distance or leverage arm behind the center of lift. The
> elevator
> > is a considerably longer leverage arm length behind the center of lift so
> > the amount of down force required to cause a pitch up or just counter the
> > prop thrust is much less. Seems like you would have reduced forward
> thrust
> > and the wings would have to work harder to counter the added downforce
> and
> > in doing so added drag.
> >
> > A new pilot needs to adjust to the pitching forces with power changes. It
> > is just the way Kolbs fly. My first VW engine mount had a very high
> thrust
> > line. My 72 inch prop had a 7 inch clearance above the boom tube. I
> > couldn't go to full power until I got some speed where I had enough
> > elevator power to keep from pitching over on the nose. The second mount
> > lowered the trust line by 6 inches and that made a huge difference but I
> > still have to adjust to pitch force changes.
> >
> > As usual my advice is worth what you paid for it.
> >
> > Rick Neilsen
> > Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 11:55 AM John Hauck <jhauck36@outlook.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Don=99t think I said I was OK with reducing power on takeoff, but i
> > t did get
> > > me out of trouble on my first take off on my very short air strip.
> Never
> > > had to reduce power to takeoff after the first one. Just pull the
> stick
> > > back further. ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, I think you misunderstood my initial explanation of my experience
> > > with my =9Cfirst=9D take off after changing out an 80 for a 1
> > 00 hp rotax. I
> > > think I explained something about =9Cmuscle memory=9D. I had
> > more than 2,000
> > > hours flying in front of an 80 hp on my MKIII.
> > >
> > >
> > > My second takeoff and another 1,600 hours in front of the 100 hp engine
> > > never proved to be as problem. Actually, never thought about it again.
> > It
> > > too became muscle memory.
> > >
> > >
> > > I don=99t think the =9Cpitch down=9D as power comes up
> > is rocket science. It=99s
> > > like pushing on a lever. You can help overcome it in several ways. I
> > > changed angle of attack of my horizontal stabiliizers and came up with
> an
> > > effective and simple forced pitch trim system. But on takeoff, just
> pull
> > > the stick back a little more. ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > Again, my first take off after engine swap caught me by surprise, but
> not
> > > again.
> > >
> > >
> > > Over the 36 years and about 6,000 hours building, experimenting, and
> > > flying Kolb aircraft, I have a pretty good idea how they work. I may
> hav
> > e
> > > a difficult time explaining that to someone who has little or no
> experien
> > ce
> > > flying Kolbs, but I try. Sorry you all did not understand what I was
> > > trying to mumble.
> > >
> > >
> > > john h
> > >
> > > Titus, Alabama =93 Kolb Factory Pilot for Homer Kolb, Bruce Chesnut
> > , and
> > > Bryan Melborn, Retired ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> > > owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Peter Cowan
> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2021 9:53 AM
> > > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> > > *Subject:* Kolb-List: Reducing power on take off versus thrust line.
> > >
> > >
> > > This topic came up some months back and there was quite a good
> analysis o
> > f
> > > the forces involved so I was surprised when John mentioned that after
> goi
> > ng
> > > to his higher horsepower engine he seemed to be okay with having to
> reduc
> > e
> > > power to complete a normal take off.
> > >
> > >
> > > Surely this is a condition that is abnormal and one we would not want
> to
> > > have in our aircraft, especially if it is avoidable. And it is!
> > >
> > >
> > > I was experimenting with this myself last March and subsequently notes
> > > from Boyd young and Richard Swiderski in April did a pretty good job of
> > > analyzing the forces involved.
> > >
> > >
> > > I had recently purchased a Beaver pusher that was designed for a 503 or
> > > 582 but had a 912 80 in it. Both the owner and the builder had
> experience
> > d
> > > this problem of requiring power reduction in order to rotate and their
> > > conclusion was, like Johns, that it was just excess power doing it and
> > > there was no alternative. Both suggested I should just go back to lower
> > > power.
> > >
> > >
> > > This came as a surprise and a challenge to me. Like the previous
> posters
> > > who provided a sound analysis of the forces involved, I finally
> discovere
> > d,
> > > with the primary source being a model airplane design site, that
> providin
> > g
> > > upthrust on a high, aft mounted engine was exactly the reverse of what
> wa
> > s
> > > required.
> > >
> > >
> > > My one circuit flight with this additional positive thrustline was
> almost
> > > more than I could handle in terms of requiring a huge amount of back
> > > pressure to stay airborne. A more positive thrustline actully produced
> DO
> > WN
> > > THRUST.
> > >
> > >
> > > After learning how things actually worked and putting in close to
> minus
> > > six degrees down on the thrustline, the plane has become a jem in
> handlin
> > g
> > > with full power all through the takeoff roll AND NO STICK FORCE change
> > > going from low-power to high-power and back in level flight.
> > >
> > >
> > > I do plan to add a little more down in order to get a nose UP on power
> > > application and improve the trim it needs now.
> > >
> > >
> > > Please tell me if I am missing something.
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:47:36 AM PST US
> From: Peter Cowan <cowan.phc@gmail.com>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Thrustline again.
>
> One last thought on this is that the 503 powered Kolb that I had flew just
> fine. And I would bet a 503 Beaver/Skywatch would be the same. But if I'm
> going to go wild with power, why not use some of that power to keep the
> trim inline and retain reasonable flight characteristics?
>
> On Tue., Sep. 28, 2021, 2:40 a.m. Kolb-List Digest Server, <
> kolb-list@matronics.com> wrote:
>
> > *
> >
> > ================================================
> > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ================================================
> >
> > Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> > of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> > such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> >
> > HTML Version:
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
> 21-09-27&Archive=Kolb
> >
> > Text Version:
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
> 21-09-27&Archive=Kolb
> >
> >
> > ==============================================
> > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> > ==============================================
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > Kolb-List Digest Archive
> > ---
> > Total Messages Posted Mon 09/27/21: 0
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Today's Message Index:
> > ----------------------
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:48:54 AM PST US
> From: John Hauck <jhauck36@outlook.com>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Thrustline again.
>
>
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> ________________________________ Message 5
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:13:14 PM PST US
> From: Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/26/21
>
> Pete
>
> I'm not an engineer of any kind and I really don't want to beat this issue
> to death.
>
> There are some basic design elements that make airplanes fly. We can tinker
> with airplane designs to get what we want but there are usually negative
> trade-offs and sometimes... the effect is beneficial. My Kolb MKIIIC has
> super visibility, which is mostly why I built mine. The only trade-off is
> the pitch changes with power changes. Homer originally designed a lower
> engine mount with a higher boom tube and I assume it had less pitch changes
> with power changes. If it was so simple as to pitch the thrust line up then
> we all would be flying ours that way. The performance hit with having the
> prop thrust push the tail down is too much for most of us. I don't see any
> safety issues so whatever makes you happy go for it.
>
> Your model airplane comparison is fine when you have so much extra power
> that you can climb vertically and need neutral stability necessary for the
> control system.
>
> Also someone one else talked about the cause being CG related. The first
> Kolb airplanes had their engines behind the CG but the thrust line was
> closer to the center of drag which didn't have the pitch down with power
> increases. It was the change to higher thrust line models that now have the
> pitch changes. I think the newer designs have the engine further forward
> and closer to the CG.
>
> Again worth what you paid for it.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> 1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
>
> On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 8:28 AM Peter Cowan <cowan.phc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Rick, I get your point about forces at the tail having more leverage than
> > forces closer to the wings. I don't know how this would compare from an
> > efficiency point of view. I am not an aero engineer either. But I go back
> > and forth between pushers and tractors and I'd kind of like to have
> planes
> > that fly similarly. So I want a plane where power on makes you go up and
> > power off lets you go down and it seems to be easy to get that with down
> > thrust.
> > If you were into model airplanes you remember that the first thing you'd
> > do is trim the plane to glide nicely. Then adjust the engine thrust.
> That's
> > about what I'm doing.
> > p
> >
> > On Mon., Sep. 27, 2021, 2:40 a.m. Kolb-List Digest Server, <
> > kolb-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> >
> >> *
> >>
> >> =======================
> >> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> >> =======================
> >>
> >> Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> >> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
> formatted
> >> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> >> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> >> of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> >> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> >>
> >> HTML Version:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
> 21-09-26&Archive=Kolb
> >>
> >> Text Version:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
> 21-09-26&Archive=Kolb
> >>
> >>
> >> =====================
> >> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> >> =====================
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> Kolb-List Digest Archive
> >> ---
> >> Total Messages Posted Sun 09/26/21: 1
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Message Index:
> >> ----------------------
> >>
> >> 1. 11:25 AM - Re: Reducing power on take off versus thrust line.
> >> (Rick Neilsen)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________ Message 1
> >> _____________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >> Time: 11:25:41 AM PST US
> >> From: Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Reducing power on take off versus thrust line.
> >>
> >> Food for thought. Setting the engine/prop thrust line so that any of it
> is
> >> pushing the plane down on a Kolb just doesn't seem to make the best use
> of
> >> available thrust. Kolb airplanes have a high thrust line in relation to
> >> the
> >> center of drag. You talk about setting about 6 degrees up thrust so that
> >> it
> >> reduces the pitch down effect of adding power. The amount of thrust
> >> necessary to push the tail down by the prop thrust must be huge. The
> prop
> >> is a short distance or leverage arm behind the center of lift. The
> >> elevator
> >> is a considerably longer leverage arm length behind the center of lift
> so
> >> the amount of down force required to cause a pitch up or just counter
> the
> >> prop thrust is much less. Seems like you would have reduced forward
> thrust
> >> and the wings would have to work harder to counter the added downforce
> and
> >> in doing so added drag.
> >>
> >> A new pilot needs to adjust to the pitching forces with power changes.
> It
> >> is just the way Kolbs fly. My first VW engine mount had a very high
> thrust
> >> line. My 72 inch prop had a 7 inch clearance above the boom tube. I
> >> couldn't go to full power until I got some speed where I had enough
> >> elevator power to keep from pitching over on the nose. The second mount
> >> lowered the trust line by 6 inches and that made a huge difference but I
> >> still have to adjust to pitch force changes.
> >>
> >> As usual my advice is worth what you paid for it.
> >>
> >> Rick Neilsen
> >> Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 11:55 AM John Hauck <jhauck36@outlook.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Don=99t think I said I was OK with reducing power on takeoff, but i
> >> t did get
> >> > me out of trouble on my first take off on my very short air strip.
> >> Never
> >> > had to reduce power to takeoff after the first one. Just pull the
> stick
> >> > back further. ;-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Well, I think you misunderstood my initial explanation of my
> experience
> >> > with my =9Cfirst=9D take off after changing out an 80 for a 1
> >> 00 hp rotax. I
> >> > think I explained something about =9Cmuscle memory=9D. I had
> >> more than 2,000
> >> > hours flying in front of an 80 hp on my MKIII.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > My second takeoff and another 1,600 hours in front of the 100 hp
> engine
> >> > never proved to be as problem. Actually, never thought about it
> >> again.
> >> It
> >> > too became muscle memory.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I don=99t think the =9Cpitch down=9D as power comes up
> >> is rocket science. It=99s
> >> > like pushing on a lever. You can help overcome it in several ways. I
> >> > changed angle of attack of my horizontal stabiliizers and came up with
> >> an
> >> > effective and simple forced pitch trim system. But on takeoff, just
> >> pull
> >> > the stick back a little more. ;-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Again, my first take off after engine swap caught me by surprise, but
> >> not
> >> > again.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Over the 36 years and about 6,000 hours building, experimenting, and
> >> > flying Kolb aircraft, I have a pretty good idea how they work. I may
> >> hav
> >> e
> >> > a difficult time explaining that to someone who has little or no
> >> experien
> >> ce
> >> > flying Kolbs, but I try. Sorry you all did not understand what I was
> >> > trying to mumble.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > john h
> >> >
> >> > Titus, Alabama =93 Kolb Factory Pilot for Homer Kolb, Bruce Chesnut
> >> , and
> >> > Bryan Melborn, Retired ;-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> >> > owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Peter Cowan
> >> > *Sent:* Friday, September 24, 2021 9:53 AM
> >> > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> >> > *Subject:* Kolb-List: Reducing power on take off versus thrust line.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > This topic came up some months back and there was quite a good
> analysis
> >> o
> >> f
> >> > the forces involved so I was surprised when John mentioned that after
> >> goi
> >> ng
> >> > to his higher horsepower engine he seemed to be okay with having to
> >> reduc
> >> e
> >> > power to complete a normal take off.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Surely this is a condition that is abnormal and one we would not want
> >> to
> >> > have in our aircraft, especially if it is avoidable. And it is!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I was experimenting with this myself last March and subsequently notes
> >> > from Boyd young and Richard Swiderski in April did a pretty good job
> of
> >> > analyzing the forces involved.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I had recently purchased a Beaver pusher that was designed for a 503
> or
> >> > 582 but had a 912 80 in it. Both the owner and the builder had
> >> experience
> >> d
> >> > this problem of requiring power reduction in order to rotate and their
> >> > conclusion was, like Johns, that it was just excess power doing it and
> >> > there was no alternative. Both suggested I should just go back to
> lower
> >> > power.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > This came as a surprise and a challenge to me. Like the previous
> >> posters
> >> > who provided a sound analysis of the forces involved, I finally
> >> discovere
> >> d,
> >> > with the primary source being a model airplane design site, that
> >> providin
> >> g
> >> > upthrust on a high, aft mounted engine was exactly the reverse of what
> >> wa
> >> s
> >> > required.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > My one circuit flight with this additional positive thrustline was
> >> almost
> >> > more than I could handle in terms of requiring a huge amount of back
> >> > pressure to stay airborne. A more positive thrustline actully produced
> >> DO
> >> WN
> >> > THRUST.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > After learning how things actually worked and putting in close to
> minus
> >> > six degrees down on the thrustline, the plane has become a jem in
> >> handlin
> >> g
> >> > with full power all through the takeoff roll AND NO STICK FORCE
> change
> >> > going from low-power to high-power and back in level flight.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I do plan to add a little more down in order to get a nose UP on power
> >> > application and improve the trim it needs now.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Please tell me if I am missing something.
> >> >
> >> > Peter
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =========
> >> -List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> >> =========
> >> FORUMS -
> >> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> >> =========
> >> WIKI -
> >> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> >> =========
> >> b Site -
> >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> >> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
> >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/28/21 |
Wait a second!
My penalty for fixing the problem by changing the thrust line is LESS THAN
1%.
The problem must be fixed: the plane has to be pointed in the right
direction. If we don't use engine thrust, we have to use elevator thrust
as Rick pointed out and that costs too.
It sure looks like thrust fix is the way to go.
p
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/28/21 |
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