Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:15 AM - Re: HKS and ethanol (George Helton)
2. 07:21 AM - Re: HKS and ethanol (John Hauck)
3. 07:50 AM - Re: HKS and ethanol (Stuart Harner)
4. 08:36 AM - Re: HKS and ethanol (Larry Cottrell)
5. 08:40 AM - Re: HKS and ethanol (Charlie England)
6. 11:56 AM - Re: HKS and ethanol (Rick Neilsen)
7. 12:00 PM - Re: HKS and ethanol (Stuart Harner)
8. 01:20 PM - Re: HKS and ethanol (Larry Cottrell)
9. 02:02 PM - Re: HKS and ethanol (Charlie England)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: HKS and ethanol |
I thought HKS was 4 cycle engines? Anyway the problem there is really is a possibility
of lead fouling a spark plug.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 7, 2024, at 9:26PM, lcottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an HKS on
my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a
real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?
> Thanks
>
> --------
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513762#513762
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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The problem is lead fouling inside the engine on bearing surfaces, not plug fouling.
Both Rotax and HKS are authorized to burn 100LL which is loaded with lead. The
requirement to use 100LL is more frequent oil changes.
John h
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com <owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2024 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS and ethanol
I thought HKS was 4 cycle engines? Anyway the problem there is really is a possibility
of lead fouling a spark plug.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 7, 2024, at 9:26PM, lcottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
>
> Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an HKS on
my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a
real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?
> Thanks
>
> --------
> do not archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums/
> .matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D513762%23513762&data=05%7C02%7C%7
> C2524981568f9460a67d608dcb7b4cffa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7
> C1%7C0%7C638587234433618327%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMD
> AiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jB
> A3jeQ5F%2B0%2BGOwXdiasGzOtXSHVyofALSXN%2FUOXdf8%3D&reserved=0
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>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: HKS and ethanol |
One would think the HKS could handle up to 10% ethanol. The owner's
manual should say if it can tolerate ethanol and what the minimum octane is.
In any case, are you thinking of going to regular car gas?
100LL is ethanol free and has basically no shelf life, but I didn't take
it that you were asking about 100LL.
Was at a seminar at OSH where they talked about the new G100UL gas that
has been approved by the FAA. No lead and high enough octane to run in
just about anything. Rotax is fine with it for both the 4 stroke and 2
stroke engines. It sounds like that will become available at just about
all airports in the next couple of years as they shut down the last of
the 100LL production.
IN the mean time Rotax is saying up to 10% is fine as long as you get
enough octane for your particular engine. In most places that is either
premium auto gas at the pump or sometimes marketed as ethanol free
recreation fuel.
In the case of your HKS Larry, I would think that if it can tolerate a
little ethanol you would be fine with regular car gas at the pump as
long as you can get enough octane. Just remember that it has a very
limited shelf life so you don't want to stock up on too much at a time.
Also I would think that the occasional use of 100LL would have little or
no impact on your engine.
The only other concern would be fuel system components. Tanks, lines,
pump, etc.
Are you still flying every day you can?
Stuart
On 8/7/24 20:25, lcottrell wrote:
>
> Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an HKS on
my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a
real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?
> Thanks
>
> --------
> do not archive
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513762#513762
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: HKS and ethanol |
My problem with fuel is that I have to drive 130 miles to get non ethanol.
I live in a remote area, so my options are limited. Cost is also a factor.
As far as my flight times, I am cutting back quite a bit. Have seen
everything several times, so some of the shine has diminished.
Thanks for the reply.
Larry
On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 8:51=AFAM Stuart Harner <stuart@harnerfarm.net
> wrote:
>
> One would think the HKS could handle up to 10% ethanol. The owner's
> manual should say if it can tolerate ethanol and what the minimum octane
> is.
>
> In any case, are you thinking of going to regular car gas?
>
> 100LL is ethanol free and has basically no shelf life, but I didn't take
> it that you were asking about 100LL.
>
> Was at a seminar at OSH where they talked about the new G100UL gas that
> has been approved by the FAA. No lead and high enough octane to run in
> just about anything. Rotax is fine with it for both the 4 stroke and 2
> stroke engines. It sounds like that will become available at just about
> all airports in the next couple of years as they shut down the last of
> the 100LL production.
>
> IN the mean time Rotax is saying up to 10% is fine as long as you get
> enough octane for your particular engine. In most places that is either
> premium auto gas at the pump or sometimes marketed as ethanol free
> recreation fuel.
>
> In the case of your HKS Larry, I would think that if it can tolerate a
> little ethanol you would be fine with regular car gas at the pump as
> long as you can get enough octane. Just remember that it has a very
> limited shelf life so you don't want to stock up on too much at a time.
> Also I would think that the occasional use of 100LL would have little or
> no impact on your engine.
>
> The only other concern would be fuel system components. Tanks, lines,
> pump, etc.
>
> Are you still flying every day you can?
>
> Stuart
>
> On 8/7/24 20:25, lcottrell wrote:
> >
> > Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an
> HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them.
Is
> there a real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?
> > Thanks
> >
> > --------
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513762#513762
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: HKS and ethanol |
On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 8:26=AFPM lcottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an HK
S
> on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them. Is
> there a real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?
> Thanks
Why 'd0 n0t archive'? You're asking a sensible question, and both the
question and answers could help someone else in the future.
On the issue of Egas vs non-Egas: I can't directly address the HKS, but
*usually*, the issue with ethanol is more the a/c fuel system and the
engine's accessories than the engine itself. If you have a fiberglass fuel
tank, you're likely at risk of damage from ethanol. If you have plastic or
'traditional' rubber fuel lines, same thing. If the engine has an engine
driven fuel pump, the 'soft' parts *might* be at risk, but it would seem
unlikely, since most a/c engine accessories are derivatives of
automotive/sports engine stuff, and all that has been adapted to
Egas decades ago.
The engine itself doesn't care, as long as octane of the fuel is adequate,
and most non-Egas is the same or lower octane rating as equivalent Egas.
As a FWIW, I've been running Egas from the nearest gas station in my 180 HP
Lycoming IO360 in my RV6 for several years without issue. The only parts
in an RV or a Lyc that are vulnerable to the ethanol are the 'soft' parts
in the very old engine driven fuel pumps, but any pump made in the last
15-20 years has upgraded parts that are E-resistant.
Note that there will be a *slight* increase in vapor lock issues with Egas.
Straight ethanol has a lower vapor pressure than gasoline, but due to some
strange black magic, when you mix up to around 10-15% with gasoline, the
overall vapor pressure increases a bit (meaning the risk of vapor lock goes
up). If you run a carb on that engine, you'll need to be a bit more
cautious in hot weather, but with the carb out in the airflow where it gets
maximum cooling, that shouldn't be a huge risk. If the engine is fuel
injected using automotive high pressure injection, the risk goes way down
and would be limited to the fuel in the supply line from the tank to the
pump getting too hot. And that only if the pump is having to pull the fuel
up (pump above the tank instead of below it).
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: HKS and ethanol |
Larry
I have been burning auto gas in my vw kolb for over twenty years with no
issues. When I store it for the winter I put fuel stabilizer or 100 LL. For
the last 10 years I have been putting non ethanol in it the last few fills
also.
Rick Neilsen
On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 11:37=AFAM Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail
.com>
wrote:
> My problem with fuel is that I have to drive 130 miles to get non ethanol
.
> I live in a remote area, so my options are limited. Cost is also a factor
.
> As far as my flight times, I am cutting back quite a bit. Have seen
> everything several times, so some of the shine has diminished.
> Thanks for the reply.
> Larry
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 8:51=AFAM Stuart Harner <stuart@harnerfarm.n
et>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> One would think the HKS could handle up to 10% ethanol. The owner's
>> manual should say if it can tolerate ethanol and what the minimum octane
>> is.
>>
>> In any case, are you thinking of going to regular car gas?
>>
>> 100LL is ethanol free and has basically no shelf life, but I didn't take
>> it that you were asking about 100LL.
>>
>> Was at a seminar at OSH where they talked about the new G100UL gas that
>> has been approved by the FAA. No lead and high enough octane to run in
>> just about anything. Rotax is fine with it for both the 4 stroke and 2
>> stroke engines. It sounds like that will become available at just about
>> all airports in the next couple of years as they shut down the last of
>> the 100LL production.
>>
>> IN the mean time Rotax is saying up to 10% is fine as long as you get
>> enough octane for your particular engine. In most places that is either
>> premium auto gas at the pump or sometimes marketed as ethanol free
>> recreation fuel.
>>
>> In the case of your HKS Larry, I would think that if it can tolerate a
>> little ethanol you would be fine with regular car gas at the pump as
>> long as you can get enough octane. Just remember that it has a very
>> limited shelf life so you don't want to stock up on too much at a time.
>> Also I would think that the occasional use of 100LL would have little or
>> no impact on your engine.
>>
>> The only other concern would be fuel system components. Tanks, lines,
>> pump, etc.
>>
>> Are you still flying every day you can?
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>> On 8/7/24 20:25, lcottrell wrote:
>> >
>> > Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an
>> HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them.
Is
>> there a real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > --------
>> > do not archive
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513762#513762
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ==========
>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
> others.*
>
> *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending.*
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: HKS and ethanol |
Other than the soft parts of the fuel system the biggest worry of
ethanol is separation.
When the ethanol absorbs a certain amount of water it becomes too heavy
to stay mixed with the gasoline. It then does a phase separation where
it drops out to the bottom of the tank. Now you are trying to burn
something that has no gasoline in it.
Phase separation was one of the big hurdles to overcome and was the
major reasons it was never adopted for general aviation use. Mixes of
under 10% usually are fine but those over 10% are at a much greater risk
of separation.
Exact mix proportional control is lax at best for automotive use and
even if tightly controlled at the time of mixing, evaporation and age of
the mix can cause the proportions to vary wildly by the time it actually
gets airborne. Thus the problems with ethanol that have supposedly been
cured by the new G100 stuff.
Considering Larry's location, phase separation my not be an issue
especially if he can keep his supply as fresh as possible.
It's just another one of the many hurdles to private aviation that helps
keep us suppressed.
Stuart
On 8/8/24 10:40, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 8:26PM lcottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I
> have an HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed
> fuel in them. Is there a real reason to continue buying non
> ethanol fuel?
> Thanks
>
> Why 'd0 n0t archive'? You're asking a sensible question, and both the
> question and answers could help someone else in the future.
>
> On the issue of Egas vs non-Egas: I can't directly address the HKS,
> but *usually*, the issue with ethanol is more the a/c fuel system and
> the engine's accessories than the engine itself. If you have a
> fiberglass fuel tank, you're likely at risk of damage from ethanol. If
> you have plastic or 'traditional' rubber fuel lines, same thing. If
> the engine has an engine driven fuel pump, the 'soft' parts *might* be
> at risk, but it would seem unlikely, since most a/c engine accessories
> are derivatives of automotive/sports engine stuff, and all that has
> been adapted to Egasdecades ago.
>
> The engine itself doesn't care, as long as octane of the fuel is
> adequate, and most non-Egas is the same or lower octane rating as
> equivalent Egas.
>
> As a FWIW, I've been running Egas from the nearest gas station in my
> 180 HP Lycoming IO360 in my RV6 for several years without issue. The
> only parts in an RV or a Lyc that are vulnerable to the ethanol are
> the 'soft' parts in the very old engine driven fuel pumps, but any
> pump made in the last 15-20 years has upgraded parts that are E-resistant.
>
> Note that there will be a *slight* increase in vapor lock issues with
> Egas. Straight ethanol has a lower vapor pressure than gasoline, but
> due to some strange black magic, when you mix up to around 10-15% with
> gasoline, the overall vapor pressure increases a bit (meaning the risk
> of vapor lock goes up). If you run a carb on that engine, you'll need
> to be a bit more cautious in hot weather, but with the carb out in the
> airflow where it gets maximum cooling, that shouldn't be ahugerisk.
> If the engine is fuel injected using automotive high pressure
> injection, the risk goes way down and would be limited to the fuel in
> the supply line from the tank to the pump getting too hot. And that
> only if the pump is having to pull the fuel up (pump above the tank
> instead of below it).
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: HKS and ethanol |
My concern was the soft parts of the engine when using ethanol. That and
the fact that it costs me $50 bucks just to get to a Non ethanol pump, not
to mention the extra $1.50 a gallon to get it.
Thanks for the answers that you all have provided. Just going to bite the
bullet and do it. Sigh!
Larry
On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:01=AFPM Stuart Harner <stuart@harnerfarm.net
> wrote:
> Other than the soft parts of the fuel system the biggest worry of ethanol
> is separation.
>
> When the ethanol absorbs a certain amount of water it becomes too heavy t
o
> stay mixed with the gasoline. It then does a phase separation where it
> drops out to the bottom of the tank. Now you are trying to burn something
> that has no gasoline in it.
>
> Phase separation was one of the big hurdles to overcome and was the major
> reasons it was never adopted for general aviation use. Mixes of under 10%
> usually are fine but those over 10% are at a much greater risk of
> separation.
>
> Exact mix proportional control is lax at best for automotive use and even
> if tightly controlled at the time of mixing, evaporation and age of the m
ix
> can cause the proportions to vary wildly by the time it actually gets
> airborne. Thus the problems with ethanol that have supposedly been cured
by
> the new G100 stuff.
>
> Considering Larry's location, phase separation my not be an issue
> especially if he can keep his supply as fresh as possible.
>
> It's just another one of the many hurdles to private aviation that helps
> keep us suppressed.
>
> Stuart
>
>
> On 8/8/24 10:40, Charlie England wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 8:26=AFPM lcottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an
>> HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them.
Is
>> there a real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?
>> Thanks
>
> Why 'd0 n0t archive'? You're asking a sensible question, and both the
> question and answers could help someone else in the future.
>
> On the issue of Egas vs non-Egas: I can't directly address the HKS, but
> *usually*, the issue with ethanol is more the a/c fuel system and the
> engine's accessories than the engine itself. If you have a fiberglass fue
l
> tank, you're likely at risk of damage from ethanol. If you have plastic o
r
> 'traditional' rubber fuel lines, same thing. If the engine has an engine
> driven fuel pump, the 'soft' parts *might* be at risk, but it would seem
> unlikely, since most a/c engine accessories are derivatives of
> automotive/sports engine stuff, and all that has been adapted to
> Egas decades ago.
>
> The engine itself doesn't care, as long as octane of the fuel is adequate
,
> and most non-Egas is the same or lower octane rating as equivalent Egas.
>
> As a FWIW, I've been running Egas from the nearest gas station in my 180
> HP Lycoming IO360 in my RV6 for several years without issue. The only
> parts in an RV or a Lyc that are vulnerable to the ethanol are the 'soft'
> parts in the very old engine driven fuel pumps, but any pump made in the
> last 15-20 years has upgraded parts that are E-resistant.
>
> Note that there will be a *slight* increase in vapor lock issues with
> Egas. Straight ethanol has a lower vapor pressure than gasoline, but due
to
> some strange black magic, when you mix up to around 10-15% with gasoline,
> the overall vapor pressure increases a bit (meaning the risk of vapor loc
k
> goes up). If you run a carb on that engine, you'll need to be a bit more
> cautious in hot weather, but with the carb out in the airflow where it ge
ts
> maximum cooling, that shouldn't be a huge risk. If the engine is fuel
> injected using automotive high pressure injection, the risk goes way down
> and would be limited to the fuel in the supply line from the tank to the
> pump getting too hot. And that only if the pump is having to pull the fue
l
> up (pump above the tank instead of below it).
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: HKS and ethanol |
Phase separation really is a 'thing', but it seems likely a Kolb with any
engine running a carb without mixture adjustment would quit from running
too rich (or the pilot will freeze) before the plane gets high and cold
enough for it to happen. I know the guys up north fly in colder conditions
than us wimps in the deep south, but does anyone fly up in the O2 levels in
winter? It's worth getting past the 'bumper sticker' and dig into the
conditions required for it to happen. Another example would be vapor
pressure issues. higher vapor lock risk, as I mentioned earlier, but
strangely, once ethanol percentage gets above 15% or so the vapor pressure
actually drops to equal or below straight gas, meaning *lower* risk of
vapor lock.
>
Water absorption is a thing too, but there's theory and then there's
practice. I think Yogi Berra had it right
<https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/yogi_berra_141506#:~:text=Yogi%20Berra%20Quotes&text=In%20theory%20there%20is%20no%20difference%20between%20theory%20and,In%20practice%20there%20is.>.
;-)
My RV6 is hangared in a rather drafty hangar in what's probably the highest
humidity area in the USA (Mississippi, with RH often above 80%), sits for
sometimes a month or more at a time with big day/night temperature swings
and water dripping off the inside of the metal roof most mornings, and I've
never, ever, found a drop of water in the sumps. IMO, the risk of water
getting in the fuel is no joke if a plane is tied down outside, but that's
true no matter what fuel is used.
Having said all that, everyone should evaluate the risks/benefits for
themselves, and make their own decisions.
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