---------------------------------------------------------- L29-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/24/06: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:26 AM - Re: L-29 Air Conditioning (Jean de Roubin) 2. 09:47 AM - air con - real question (Jorgen Nielsen) 3. 09:52 AM - Re: air con - real question (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 4. 10:14 AM - Re: air con - real question (Ernest Martinez) 5. 11:24 AM - MANUAL ON CD? (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 6. 11:44 AM - Re: MANUAL ON CD? (Gary Cole) 7. 02:53 PM - Re: MANUAL ON CD? (Colyergreg@aol.com) 8. 02:56 PM - Re: air con - real question (Jorgen Nielsen) 9. 04:07 PM - Re: air con - real question (AI Nut) 10. 06:00 PM - Re: MANUAL ON CD? (Bill) 11. 11:47 PM - L-29 and other jets at Reno Air Races? (SD737@aol.com) 12. 11:48 PM - More RARA jet info (SD737@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:26:03 AM PST US From: Jean de Roubin Subject: Re: L29-List: L-29 Air Conditioning --> L29-List message posted by: Jean de Roubin Hi, could you try to send me directly the attachement for AC With many thanks Jean de Roubin Le 22 f=E9vr. 06 =E0 23:52, SD737@aol.com a =E9crit : > --> L29-List message posted by: SD737@aol.com > > Ah, the attachment did not follow through the matronics system... > sorry guys > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:40 AM PST US From: "Jorgen Nielsen" Subject: L29-List: air con - real question --> L29-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" Has anyone ever stripped down the components of the air con system? I can accept that its not a great system, but I don't seem to get air flow through it. Lots of cool air would be good, but even warm air blowing on me would be better than no air! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:04 AM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: L29-List: air con - real question --> L29-List message posted by: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com OK I don't really know anything about jets, or systems, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. Does the jet have a 110V AC power supply while in the air? If so, could you not strip down a $100 window unit AC like used in a house, reconfigure/reshape it so it will fit into whatever baggage space you have? Maybe replace the existing AC unit, and hook up to existing duct work? How ridiculous of an idea is this? Boyce already laughing at the idea.... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:38 AM PST US From: "Ernest Martinez" Subject: Re: L29-List: air con - real question --> L29-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" The L-29 air conditioning unit is a turbo-cooler design. Hot bleed air fromthe compressor is sent through a diverter/mixer valve, one side of the diverter valve goes straight into the cockpit to provide heat, the air is turned on by pushing the cabin pressurization valve on. The other side of the diverter valve goes through an air2air heat exchanger to pre-cool the hot bleed air, the output of the heat exchanger goes through a turbine. The act of turning turbine expends enrgery and thereby cools the air. then it is mixed with the hot side from the diverter valve to regulate the air temp. The diverter valve is controlled by the 3 position switch in the cockpit, cold diverts all air to to the heat exchanger, hot bypasses the heat exchanger, and automat controls the diverter valve based on the thermostat in the cokpit, mixing the hot and cold bleed air to the desired temp. There are 2 major problems with the system. First the heat exchanger relies on RAM air in order to cool the hot bleed air, when the jet is stationary the heat exchanger does nothing due to lack of RAM air. The second issue is that the cooler turbine is too small to really cool the air sufficiently to work in extreme temps. A larger turbine cannot be fitted (Like the L-39 unit) because the M-701 doesnt have sufficient excess bleed air capacity to turn anything larger and still maintain combustion pressures. I have worked on and off on a 24v powered auto air compressor, but this also has its limitations. There is very little room in the nose compartment for a sufficient size condensor. There is no good place to place an decent size evaporator in the cockpit, and there is no easy way to deal with condensation in the cockpit, so you would end up with a whole lot of water in the belly. I experimented with a marine type refrigeration 24v compressor but it didnt have the capacity required for cooling. I may try again with a 24v syncronous motor which may have the required torque to turn the compressor, but power draw will be on the order of about 60 amps. Plumbing through the pressure vessel is also an issue which needs resolution. Ernie On 2/24/06, RAMPEYBOY@aol.com wrote: > --> L29-List message posted by: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com > > OK I don't really know anything about jets, or systems, but I'll throw in my > 2 cents worth. Does the jet have a 110V AC power supply while in the air? If > so, could you not strip down a $100 window unit AC like used in a house, > reconfigure/reshape it so it will fit into whatever baggage space you have? > Maybe replace the existing AC unit, and hook up to existing duct work? How > ridiculous of an idea is this? > Boyce > already laughing at the idea.... > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:03 AM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: L29-List: MANUAL ON CD? --> L29-List message posted by: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com I read on the list about the L-29 manual being available on CD. How do I get one, and how much? "Zach" was the reported contact person, but the Email I had for him bounced back. Thanks! Boyce ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:39 AM PST US From: "Gary Cole" Subject: RE: L29-List: MANUAL ON CD? --> L29-List message posted by: "Gary Cole" Try Z at www.warbirdseast.com Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-l29-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-l29-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 1:24 PM Subject: L29-List: MANUAL ON CD? --> L29-List message posted by: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com I read on the list about the L-29 manual being available on CD. How do I get one, and how much? "Zach" was the reported contact person, but the Email I had for him bounced back. Thanks! Boyce ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:04 PM PST US From: Colyergreg@aol.com Subject: Re: L29-List: MANUAL ON CD? --> L29-List message posted by: Colyergreg@aol.com I have it available on CD. In fact I have all the manuals available. Free Just pay for the shipping and a disk. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:38 PM PST US From: "Jorgen Nielsen" Subject: RE: L29-List: air con - real question --> L29-List message posted by: "Jorgen Nielsen" Comprehensive answer Ernie! OK so no easy answers re the aircon. I remember you were experimenting. Regarding airflow, when the aircon is running, cool or hot, can you actually feel any type of breeze in the cockpit? -----Original Message----- From: owner-l29-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-l29-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez Sent: 24 February 2006 08:14 PM Subject: Re: L29-List: air con - real question --> L29-List message posted by: "Ernest Martinez" The L-29 air conditioning unit is a turbo-cooler design. Hot bleed air fromthe compressor is sent through a diverter/mixer valve, one side of the diverter valve goes straight into the cockpit to provide heat, the air is turned on by pushing the cabin pressurization valve on. The other side of the diverter valve goes through an air2air heat exchanger to pre-cool the hot bleed air, the output of the heat exchanger goes through a turbine. The act of turning turbine expends enrgery and thereby cools the air. then it is mixed with the hot side from the diverter valve to regulate the air temp. The diverter valve is controlled by the 3 position switch in the cockpit, cold diverts all air to to the heat exchanger, hot bypasses the heat exchanger, and automat controls the diverter valve based on the thermostat in the cokpit, mixing the hot and cold bleed air to the desired temp. There are 2 major problems with the system. First the heat exchanger relies on RAM air in order to cool the hot bleed air, when the jet is stationary the heat exchanger does nothing due to lack of RAM air. The second issue is that the cooler turbine is too small to really cool the air sufficiently to work in extreme temps. A larger turbine cannot be fitted (Like the L-39 unit) because the M-701 doesnt have sufficient excess bleed air capacity to turn anything larger and still maintain combustion pressures. I have worked on and off on a 24v powered auto air compressor, but this also has its limitations. There is very little room in the nose compartment for a sufficient size condensor. There is no good place to place an decent size evaporator in the cockpit, and there is no easy way to deal with condensation in the cockpit, so you would end up with a whole lot of water in the belly. I experimented with a marine type refrigeration 24v compressor but it didnt have the capacity required for cooling. I may try again with a 24v syncronous motor which may have the required torque to turn the compressor, but power draw will be on the order of about 60 amps. Plumbing through the pressure vessel is also an issue which needs resolution. Ernie On 2/24/06, RAMPEYBOY@aol.com wrote: > --> L29-List message posted by: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com > > OK I don't really know anything about jets, or systems, but I'll > throw in my > 2 cents worth. Does the jet have a 110V AC power supply while in the > air? If so, could you not strip down a $100 window unit AC like used > in a house, reconfigure/reshape it so it will fit into whatever baggage space you have? > Maybe replace the existing AC unit, and hook up to existing duct > work? How ridiculous of an idea is this? > Boyce > already laughing at the idea.... > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:07:36 PM PST US From: AI Nut Subject: Re: L29-List: air con - real question --> L29-List message posted by: AI Nut Or is there anyplace one can attach an automotive type compressor? Shaft speeds on the engine, of course, are out of the question. David M. RAMPEYBOY@aol.com wrote: > --> L29-List message posted by: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com > > OK I don't really know anything about jets, or systems, but I'll throw in my > 2 cents worth. Does the jet have a 110V AC power supply while in the air? If > so, could you not strip down a $100 window unit AC like used in a house, > reconfigure/reshape it so it will fit into whatever baggage space you have? > Maybe replace the existing AC unit, and hook up to existing duct work? How > ridiculous of an idea is this? > Boyce > already laughing at the idea.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:13 PM PST US From: "Bill" Subject: Re: L29-List: MANUAL ON CD? --> L29-List message posted by: "Bill" The cd will be at our little get together in Calif. I can burn some. (I'll try) ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 1:23 PM Subject: L29-List: MANUAL ON CD? > --> L29-List message posted by: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com > > I read on the list about the L-29 manual being available on CD. How do I > get > one, and how much? "Zach" was the reported contact person, but the Email > I > had for him bounced back. Thanks! > Boyce > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:16 PM PST US From: SD737@aol.com Subject: L29-List: L-29 and other jets at Reno Air Races? --> L29-List message posted by: SD737@aol.com Hi guys, I live in Reno and I spoke with the Reno Air Race Association (RARA) two weeks ago and asked about L-29's getting into the races and he said that actually they might not have the L-39's race any longer. He said they don't make enough noise and that the crowd finds them boring. Also, last year Dave Canavo's L-39 walked away with the race, and so there really wasn't a race hence it wasn't much of a crowd pleaser.... Read this article below. Some of you may have heard that the L-39 Jet Races in Reno are in jeopardy. There is some truth to that rumor. I won't get into the politics of the issue, however, it is a reality that RARA is looking to improve the participation and sponsorship for the event. CJAA member Jim O'neal is spearheading an effort to gather enough support to keep the Jets from becoming a footnote at Reno. I will be lending my support on behalf of CJAA as well. The initial concept is to pattern the Jets after all the other competitiive classes. What this means in a nutshell is that all subsonic speed jet aircraft will be able to compete rather than a one only (L-39) model. SOOOOO, any jet, (L-29's, Casa's, Fouga's, Tweets, Provosts,Iskra's, T-33's, L-39's, etc., etc. etc.) will be racing against similar SPEED aircraft. Jim is working to draw up a set of rules that will be the model for the event. We're going to bend as many elbows as we can to gather at least a minimum of 20+ Jets to committ to Reno this September. One other big hurdle that needs to be addressed is sponsorship for the Jet Class. Basically, we will need individuals, companies, corporations, etc. to sponsor the prize money for the class. Being a sponsor at the event does have its privileges. The bottom line is that we need to move on this ASAP. Watching the Races is a great adrenaline rush, now, guess what the feeling would be to participate!!!!!! Please, Please, contact me if you think that you or a group of you might wish to pool resources to race or sponsor part of the event. Jim and I will be at the Convention for a brief on the progress, and to answer any questions. E'mail me if you have any inclinations as we need to start recruiting Now. Tally Ho!! Doc B.l _mblevins@psln.com_ (mailto:mblevins@psln.com) Return-path: From: BrienAttorney@aol.com Full-name: BrienAttorney Subject: copy for your review -------------------------------1140848755 Some of you may have heard that the L-39 Jet Races in Reno are in jeopardy. There is some truth to that rumor. I won't get into the politics of the issue, however, it is a reality that RARA is looking to improve the participation and sponsorship for the event. CJAA member Jim O'neal is spearheading an effort to gather enough support to keep the Jets from becoming a footnote at Reno. I will be lending my support on behalf of CJAA as well. The initial concept is to pattern the Jets after all the other competitiive classes. What this means in a nutshell is that all subsonic speed jet aircraft will be able to compete rather than a one only (L-39) model. SOOOOO, any jet, (L-29's, Casa's, Fouga's, Tweets, Provosts,Iskra's, T-33's, L-39's, etc., etc. etc.) will be racing against similar SPEED aircraft. Jim is working to draw up a set of rules that will be the model for the event. We're going to bend as many elbows as we can to gather at least a minimum of 20+ Jets to committ to Reno this September. One other big hurdle that needs to be addressed is sponsorship for the Jet Class. Basically, we will need individuals, companies, corporations, etc. to sponsor the prize money for the class. Being a sponsor at the event does have its privileges. The bottom line is that we need to move on this ASAP. Watching the Races is a great adrenaline rush, now, guess what the feeling would be to participate!!!!!! Please, Please, contact me if you think that you or a group of you might wish to pool resources to race or sponsor part of the event. Jim and I will be at the Convention for a brief on the progress, and to answer any questions. E'mail me if you have any inclinations as we need to start recruiting Now. Tally Ho!! Doc B.l mblevins@psln.com Law Offices of David R. Brien 23801 Calabasas Road, Suite 1006 Calabasas, CA 91302 Telephone: (818) 222-6887 Facsimile: (818) 222-6894 http://www.alternativedisputecenters.com/ The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for the personal and confidential Use of the recipient(s) named above. This message may be an attorney-client communication and/or work product and as such is Privileged and confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in error and that any review, dissemination, Distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us Immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. If you are not the intended recipient you are directed to delete this message and Destroy any copies thereof. -------------------------------1140848755 Some of you may have heard that the L-39 Jet Races in Reno are in jeopardy. There is some truth to that rumor. I won't get into the politics of the issue, however, it is a reality that RARA is looking to improve the participation and sponsorship for the event. CJAA member Jim O'neal is spearheading an effort to gather enough support to keep the Jets from becoming a footnote at Reno. I will be lending my support on behalf of CJAA as well. The initial concept is to pattern the Jets after all the other competitiive classes.=20What this means in a nutshell is that all subsonic speed jet aircraft will be able to compete rather than a one only (L-39) model. SOOOOO, any jet, (L-29's, Casa's, Fouga's, Tweets, Provosts,Iskra's, T-33's, L-39's, etc., etc. etc.) will be racing against similar SPEED aircraft. Jim is working to draw up a set of rules that will be the model for the event. We're going to bend as many elbows as we can to gather at least a minimum of 20+ Jets to committ=20to Reno this September. One other big hurdle that needs to be addressed is sponsorship for the Jet Class. Basically, we will need individuals, companies, corporations, etc. to sponsor the prize money for the class. Being a sponsor at the event does have its privileges. The bottom line is that we need to move on this ASAP. Watching the Races is a great adrenaline rush, now, guess what the feeling would be to participate!!!!!! Please, Please, contact=20me if you think that you or a group of you might wish to pool resources to race or sponsor part of the event. Jim and I will be at the Convention for a=20brief on the progress, and to answer any questions. E'mail me if you have any inclinations as we need to start recruiting Now. Tally Ho!! Doc B.l mblevins@psln.com Law Offices of David R. Brien 23801 Calabasas Road, Suite 1006 Calabasas, CA 91302 Telephone: (818) 222-6887 Facsimile: (818) 222-6894 http://www.alternativedisputecenters.com/ The information contained in this e-mail message is intended only for the personal and confidential Use of the recipient(s) named above. This message may be an attorney-client communication and/or work product and as such is Privileged and confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are=20hereby notified that you have received this document in error and that any review, dissemination, Distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us Immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. If you are not the intended recipient you are directed to delete this message and Destroy any copies thereof. -------------------------------1140848755-- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:06 PM PST US From: SD737@aol.com Subject: L29-List: More RARA jet info --> L29-List message posted by: SD737@aol.com A number of you are already aware that the Reno Air Racing Association (RARA) is questioning the value of the L-39 Jet races in Reno,as to participation and sponsorship. With the blessing of CJAA and under the leadership of Jim O'Neal, I'm asking that the L-39 owners/pilots gather as much support as you can to keep the Jet class from becoming extinct. We're looking to include other subsonic jet species. (29's, Casa's, Fouga's, Provost's, etc, etc.) The concept is to have "like speed" models racing against each other rather than one model (39). This would mean that we would have a Gold, Siver, Bronze event similar to the other classes. For that reason we need committed planes. For first time racing pilots there is a school that you must attend ("which way is left"!!!!!) If you've had the desire to compete, now is the time. If you choose not to compete, but, would like to help financially as a sponsor of the Jet Class, 50% of all sponsor money goes back to the racers as prize money, we need you as well. I also, posted a similar plea on the CJAA website (classicjets.org_) Please contact me by E'mail or phone if you can help out. #530-253-3947 _mblevins@psln.com_ (mailto:mblevins@psln.com) See you at the Races. Doc B.