Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:28 AM - Re: Lightning projects - updates (Dennis Borchardt)
2. 03:52 AM - Re: Lightning projects - updates (John Davis)
3. 04:47 AM - Re: Lightning projects - updates (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
4. 05:28 AM - Re: Lightning projects - updates (Brian Whittingham)
5. 05:59 AM - Re: Lightning projects - updates (Rick Bowen)
6. 07:46 AM - Re: Lightning-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/13/07 (EAFerguson@AOL.COM)
7. 09:52 AM - stabs (Tex Mantell)
8. 10:10 AM - Re: Lightning (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
9. 10:42 AM - Cold weather starts (Brian Whittingham)
10. 10:51 AM - Re: stabs (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
11. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (Charles Dewey)
12. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (IFLYSMODEL@aol.com)
13. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (Brian Whittingham)
14. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
15. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (Charles Dewey)
16. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (Charles Dewey)
17. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (Daniel Vandenberg)
18. 03:38 PM - Jab 5100 Future? (Daniel Vandenberg)
19. 04:14 PM - Re: Jab 5100 Future? (Laurie Hoffman)
20. 04:29 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (Brian Whittingham)
21. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (Daniel Vandenberg)
22. 05:00 PM - information on the Lightning (Jim Langley)
23. 05:17 PM - Re: Jab 5100 Future? (Daniel Vandenberg)
24. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Lightning w/Turbine..... (Rick Bowen)
25. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: Lightning w/Turbine..... (Brian Whittingham)
26. 06:15 PM - Re: Re: Lightning (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
27. 06:32 PM - Re: information on the Lightning (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
28. 06:35 PM - Re: information on the Lightning (Brian Whittingham)
29. 06:43 PM - Re: Jab 5100 Future? (Brian Whittingham)
30. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Lightning w/Turbine..... (Charles Dewey)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning projects - updates |
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning projects - updates |
Buz. I am just about ready to fly Lighting 155LT and it will take me a
while to get it up to your standards of fit and finish but I am working
on it. I wish I had gotten to fly in your bird when you were down to
Shelbyville but I did not. Should finish it on Monday and the bring it
home the following Saturday. It took a lot longer than I thought but
that is the way things like this go.
I would like to see your Autopilot mounting some time I will still have
to do that when I get it home.
Hope to see you soon.
John Davis
131 Sandpiper Loop
Crossville, TN 38555
931-261-5716 cell
----- Original Message -----
From: N1BZRich@aol.com
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning projects - updates
Lynn and John,
At least we know there are a few of us on the list today.
Hopefully more will check in soon and provide updates on their projects.
Both of you mentioned thinking about building a Lightning and I would
certainly encourage you to do that. If you want a great looking, great
flying, fast flying and quick to build airplane that is inexpensive to
buy and inexpensive to operate, then the Lightning should be high on
your list. Lynn, I would assume from your e-mail address you have an S
model Bonanza. Great airplane. I had an M-35 for 15 years or so (past
Oshkosh and Sun-N-Fun champ), but when it sold I replaced it with my
Esqual LS (Lightning stuff - hybrid). Fuel cost went way down. I still
have my J-3 Cub, but have sold my S1S Pitts that I had for 29 years. I
just was not flying it enough since I finished the Esqual. And as much
as I love my Esqual, the Lightning is a better airplane. You will love
it.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning projects - updates |
Hi John,
Sorry we won't get to see your finished airplane; we arrive back at
SYI on the 22nd to finish ours. Maybe during your test flying period,
you can drop in to SYI to show it off.
Hope to see you soon, Linda and Joe Mathias
----- Original Message -----
From: John Davis
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning projects - updates
Buz. I am just about ready to fly Lighting 155LT and it will take me
a while to get it up to your standards of fit and finish but I am
working on it. I wish I had gotten to fly in your bird when you were
down to Shelbyville but I did not. Should finish it on Monday and the
bring it home the following Saturday. It took a lot longer than I
thought but that is the way things like this go.
I would like to see your Autopilot mounting some time I will still
have to do that when I get it home.
Hope to see you soon.
John Davis
131 Sandpiper Loop
Crossville, TN 38555
931-261-5716 cell
----- Original Message -----
From: N1BZRich@aol.com
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning projects - updates
Lynn and John,
At least we know there are a few of us on the list today.
Hopefully more will check in soon and provide updates on their projects.
Both of you mentioned thinking about building a Lightning and I would
certainly encourage you to do that. If you want a great looking, great
flying, fast flying and quick to build airplane that is inexpensive to
buy and inexpensive to operate, then the Lightning should be high on
your list. Lynn, I would assume from your e-mail address you have an S
model Bonanza. Great airplane. I had an M-35 for 15 years or so (past
Oshkosh and Sun-N-Fun champ), but when it sold I replaced it with my
Esqual LS (Lightning stuff - hybrid). Fuel cost went way down. I still
have my J-3 Cub, but have sold my S1S Pitts that I had for 29 years. I
just was not flying it enough since I finished the Esqual. And as much
as I love my Esqual, the Lightning is a better airplane. You will love
it.
Blue Skies,
Buz
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning projects - updates |
Buz,
You'd feel right at home with Mr. Davis's stick grips. I'll get a
picture for you on Monday. They look great and are more ergonomical than
just the round padded ones I think.
At SYI there is Duane Sorenson's bird which is newly completed. You'll be
able to see that if you're down in the next week or two. I'll be test
flying the required time off of that one as soon as it passes inspection.
I'll have to give Mr. Sorenson a call. He was really sick before Christmas
and haven't seen him since.
I am also finally ready for my flight testing to begin on the prototype for
the unmodified condition for the Lightning. Afterwards I will put the flap
hinge fairings on. (8 in all) There's also a 3 inch gap on the underside
of the wing between the back of the wing and front of the flaps. It is
sealed on top, but smoothing this out I think will yield some speed gains.
The ailerons will be gap sealed, underside of the elevator and probably the
sides of the rudder. I'm hoping for an 8mph gain in cruise
speed/efficiency. That's it for now, Brian Whittingham
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning projects - updates |
Hi folks,
Well, guess I should also chime in with my "latest" news.
Lightning N727RB is just about ready for inspection.If all goes well, will
get inspected the first week of Feb.
I guess we are looking at one of those "90% done, 90% left to go"
stages......!
Gonna' be back at SYI Feb.2, looking forward to getting that baby done and
flying soon.
Tell you what, John Davis sure has one pretty Lightning....and some of the
others are going to be beautiful too when they get done.They are definitely
FAST looking just sitting on the ground.
The competition is going to be tough when these things start showing up at
fly-ins! Wahoo!
Rick
_________________________________________________________________
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 01/13/07 |
Buz is right, I haven't been posting results like I should, so here's an
update.
N17EF now has almost 60 hours total. I brought it home from Shelbyville in
Nov, left there at almost exactly 40 hours. I'm flying under Light Sport rules,
so I don't have the gear clean-up stuff, just bare wheels hanging out there.
I added vortex generators to get the required stall speed. Your results may
be different, but I was getting about 47K clean stalls, 2K over the required
for LSA. The VGs solved that by taking off 3 to 4 K. VGs do change the stall
characteristics with a sharp nose drop at stall. I suggest future LSAs using
them start further out from the fuselage. Mine start at 2" - 3" from the wing
gap.
Currently I'm doing performance testing, speed, altitude, fuel consumption,
etc. I have the ground adjustable prop, and am playing with pitch for max
allowable speed (120K, etc). This also affects fuel consumption, but with bare
wheels, I won't come close to Buz's performance numbers.
Currently I'm seeing about 110K true at 2750 RPM. That varies with altitude
and OAT of course, but I'm bumping the prop pitch up a little. At that power
setting, fuel burn is about 5 GPH which should go down some at higher prop
pitch. Fuel burn rate goes up quickly as you add power, but no good data on that
yet.
I added the Grand Rapids fuel flow system, which has to be calibrated. It's
getting close, but is set by trial and error. So for now its climb up,
switch tanks set power and cruise, then land and refuel. Calculate fuel from the
results. Its time consuming. For those who do this, you will find that the
fuel level read outs change by about 0.2 gal per tank after TO due to the change
in attitude, so you can't just use the gauge read outs.. That makes climb
out fuel burn more difficult. Naturally the line crews also vary some in
refilling. All this makes good data tedious and time consuming.
But I digress. For those considering a Lightning, it's a pleasure to fly,
very responsive, control forces are light. Seating is very comfortable, even
though I don't have an interior in yet. Visibility is outstanding. Stability,
which has been discussed here before, is neutral. In rough air, it requires
constant attention. Smooth air is much better.
Speaking of rough air, I've encountered some moderate turbulence. and it
isn't a problem except for the attention required.
I have an engine item which needs discussing. In cold weather starting isn't
easy, and the battery goes down pretty quickly. My hanger isn't heated, so
starts have become somewhat of a problem. My solution is to put an electric
heater on a timer and aim it at the engine compartment. Nick had some
suggestions for cold starts which helped. Close the throttle and pull the prop
through
6 to 8 blades. There is no accelerator pump on the carb. Start with the
throttle closed, which helps pull fuel into the intakes. I'd like to hear from
other Jabiru 3300 owners on how they are doing cold wx starts.
Earl Ferguson
Atlanta
Message 7
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High Buz, been working on the Lightning now that Winter has set in here
in Rochester,Ny. Have been having fun and have had a few problems that
I have talked to Nick about. I am afraid to mention things here because
of the misrepenstation of my comments by the readers of this site. I
don't want to start something like what goes on over like "Jabiru vs.
Rotax". There are people who feed on every word to trash something they
don't even know about. The perfect example is the what happened to the
Kitfox Net.
It was good to see you at Sun&fun last year, I will be there again in
April. Will you bring the Cub or the ESQUAL?
I have a tech question you might be able to answer. I have 2 degrees
difference in incidence on the hor. stabs. I have no way of getting it
closer. What effect will it have on the trim of the aircraft other then
drag?
Again good to here from you. TEX
Message 8
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Hey Lightning folks,
I knew we could generate some message traffic if I just asked for
project updates. Thanks to Earl, Brian, Linda, John, Lynn, Rick, Walt and our
down under friend, Dennis, for providing some feedback. As you all can see, a
few are flying and several other are really getting close. Those that have
flown are very pleased with their birds and, as far as I can tell, all those
getting close have been pleased with the build process and especially the
support in Tennessee. One thing that I think is great is that those that have
built the Lightning so far have put in the extra effort to insure top quality
airplanes in fit and finish. Outstanding paint jobs, great panels and
interiors - it only takes a little extra effort to do it right and the Lightning
design certainly deserves that. I think the Lightning builders are going to get
a great reputation as a group that produces great looking and great flying
airplanes. Congratulations to all of you and the Lightning team in
Shelbyville.
Now to answer or comment on some of your messages:
-Brian, I am sure all builders are looking forward to your results with the
drag clean up experiments. Hope the stuff I left with Nick for you comes in
handy. If you can achieve even half of the cruise improvements that you are
looking for you will have been successful. It is a clean design already, but
you have zeroed in on those places that I think could be improved on. In
the long run, I am sure Nick and Pete will want to incorporate some of your
improvements (flap hinges) into the basic design. Keep us informed.
-As to cold weather starting and other engine questions. I am into my
second winter since starting to fly my airplane and in the past 13 months I have
about 238 hours on this 3300 Jabiru. I couldn't be more pleased with this
little jewel of an engine. The only maintenance has been regular oil changes
and new plugs at the 100 and 200 hour points. Heck, when plugs cost less than
$2.00 each why ever clean a plug. Just replace. Plugs and oil filters (
$4.00 or so) are available at any local auto parts store. Lynn asked about oil
leaks (Continentals seem to all leak) and vibrations. I can say I have seen
no oil leaks. One thing that Jabiru did right was to use O-rings instead of
gaskets - hence, no leaks. Also, the engine is very smooth when running. If
you are having a vibration it is either the propeller or spinner that is
causing the problem. As to cold weather starting, if you follow the published
procedures, no problems down to temperatures where I really don't like to fly.
(I should have moved to Florida many years ago.) Basically, for a cold
weather start, pull the choke fully on (aft) and the throttle completely closed
(also aft). Then pull the propeller through 6 to 8 blades, complete your
preflight, strap in, and start the engine. As I said, this published procedure
has gotten me through a winter and a half with no problems. Granted, in
Virginia we really don't get the really cold weather, but I have started the
engine down to about freezing. One other thing I do on a regular basis when I
know my next start might be in cold temperatures - I keep a light bulb under
the engine (you can get it in underneath by the nose gear leg) with a blanket
over the cowling and cowling intake plugs in place. This seems to help and
probably raises the engine compartment temperature at least 10 degrees or so
above ambient outside air temperature. I used to do this trick with my Bonanza
using two light bulbs and I could raise the temp around the engine from 15
to 20 degrees. Engine pre-heaters also work, but the light bulb is simple and
basically is "cheap". Just takes a few seconds before you close the hangar
door and a few seconds more to remove before your next flight. PS - don't
let a 100 watt bulb touch your bottom fiberglass cowling for 2 1/2 weeks while
you drive your new Corvette to Colorado or you will end up with a small brown
spot on the outside of your bottom cowling. Yep, I did that. I now use a
60 watt bulb. In fact, don't let the bulb touch the fiberglass at all- rest
it on the exhaust or use some other way to suspend it near the bottom of the
engine.
-Dennis, I sent photos of my auto pilot servos installation several months
ago. I take it that you did not get those or that you could not display them.
I will find have to find them again and resend. The TruTrak system is
great.
Folks, keep the info flow ongoing. Remember that the list included
those that have built, those that are building, those that are considering
building, and those that are just gathering information to help them decide at
some
later date what airplane to build. All can benefit from the list - so don't
hesitate to put in your $.02 worth.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Message 9
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| Subject: | Cold weather starts |
One morning I was going to try to start up an Esqual which has the Jabiru
3300 in it as well and taxi down to the EAA hangar there at SYI. I was
going to show the plane a little at the monthly EAA fly-in breakfast and
then go fly some time off of it afterwards. It was a bitterly cold morning,
in the 20's if I remember right. I couldn't get it to start. Later on I
told Pete about this and he told me to start it with the choke on, only
works when throttle closed. I tried that and despite a weak battery at this
point it fired right up. I was used to leaving the throttle cracked open to
start, but that doesn't work well for the Jabiru. Live and learn, Brian W.
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 10
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Hi Tex,
Good to hear from you as well. I have been meaning to ask you, "How in
heck did a guy from NY get a name like Tex?" There's got to be a story
there. Anyway, yes I plan to be at SNF (I have not missed if for over 15 years)
and will be there in the Esqual LS (w/ Lightning stuff). I only took the Cub
the last two years because of the Cub Convoy in 2006, and in 2005 had just
sold the Bonanza, didn't have room for camping gear in the Pitts, and didn't
want to drive or fly on the big birds. SNF 2005 was the year I ordered the
Esqual kit from Pete, took delivery in September and flew it in December. With
their help, or course.
As to your question:
have a tech question you might be able to answer. I have 2 degrees
difference in incidence on the hor. stabs. I have no way of getting it closer.
What
effect will it have on the trim of the aircraft other then drag?
The way I would look at this is "what is the Cosine of 2 degrees" (that
would be the effective difference from the straight - no induced drag position?
Answer, some really small number, so don't sweat the small stuff. You will
not notice the difference. You might loose 1 mph of cruise speed, but it
could also work towards your advantage and not possibly require some other trim
correction incase the wing incidence is also not perfect. Airplanes,
especially homebuilt ones, are a compromise of many factors. But at the speeds
we
fly in, the overall effects are relatively small and therefore easy to over
come with other trim adjustments or at worse, control inputs or trim tabs. What
you are talking about will probably not even be noticeable.
A story I like to tell has to do with a similar situation. When I was
building my Pitts - about the same time another friend was also building one,
we
would call Curtis Pitts as ask questions about things like this. My friend,
when he assemble his un-covered airplane for the first time, measured the
distance from each wing tip to the top of the rudder post. One side was 3/4 inch
more that the other side. Wow, he thought, what the heck am I going to do,
this thing will fly like "sh_t". Well he called Curtis and explained the
problem and Curtis said, "Damn, 3/4 of an inch. That's almost perfect." Sure
enough, no problem, the plane flew great. Yours will also.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Message 11
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Great to hear updates from everybody. Curious how
Dennis Down Under is doing with the installation of
the 8 cylinder Jabiru. Innodyn has an inexpensive
turbine- anyone know whether the Lightning could take
this engine? I know the Vne is 205 or so, but any
guesses as to what the plane will do with a turbine?
Could the plane handle a 250 mph cruise??? Afterall,
ther is a guy with a Lancair Legacy racing in Reno
with a jet engine and beating most everyone. If the
Lightning is stressed to +-9 g's, why can't it handle
250+mph!!! I plan on flying 2000 mile legs regularly
in my Lightning, so speed is important. BRS parachute
will be in my plane, so I would feel safe going faster
than the Vne. Charles in Virginia (currently
building a Lightning)
--- N1BZRich@aol.com wrote:
> Hey Lightning folks,
> I knew we could generate some message traffic if
> I just asked for
> project updates. Thanks to Earl, Brian, Linda,
> John, Lynn, Rick, Walt and our
> down under friend, Dennis, for providing some
> feedback. As you all can see, a
> few are flying and several other are really getting
> close. Those that have
> flown are very pleased with their birds and, as far
> as I can tell, all those
> getting close have been pleased with the build
> process and especially the
> support in Tennessee. One thing that I think is
> great is that those that have
> built the Lightning so far have put in the extra
> effort to insure top quality
> airplanes in fit and finish. Outstanding paint
> jobs, great panels and
> interiors - it only takes a little extra effort to
> do it right and the Lightning
> design certainly deserves that. I think the
> Lightning builders are going to get
> a great reputation as a group that produces great
> looking and great flying
> airplanes. Congratulations to all of you and the
> Lightning team in
> Shelbyville.
> Now to answer or comment on some of your
> messages:
> -Brian, I am sure all builders are looking forward
> to your results with the
> drag clean up experiments. Hope the stuff I left
> with Nick for you comes in
> handy. If you can achieve even half of the cruise
> improvements that you are
> looking for you will have been successful. It is a
> clean design already, but
> you have zeroed in on those places that I think
> could be improved on. In
> the long run, I am sure Nick and Pete will want to
> incorporate some of your
> improvements (flap hinges) into the basic design.
> Keep us informed.
> -As to cold weather starting and other engine
> questions. I am into my
> second winter since starting to fly my airplane and
> in the past 13 months I have
> about 238 hours on this 3300 Jabiru. I couldn't be
> more pleased with this
> little jewel of an engine. The only maintenance has
> been regular oil changes
> and new plugs at the 100 and 200 hour points. Heck,
> when plugs cost less than
> $2.00 each why ever clean a plug. Just replace.
> Plugs and oil filters (
> $4.00 or so) are available at any local auto parts
> store. Lynn asked about oil
> leaks (Continentals seem to all leak) and
> vibrations. I can say I have seen
> no oil leaks. One thing that Jabiru did right was
> to use O-rings instead of
> gaskets - hence, no leaks. Also, the engine is
> very smooth when running. If
> you are having a vibration it is either the
> propeller or spinner that is
> causing the problem. As to cold weather starting,
> if you follow the published
> procedures, no problems down to temperatures where
> I really don't like to fly.
> (I should have moved to Florida many years ago.)
> Basically, for a cold
> weather start, pull the choke fully on (aft) and
> the throttle completely closed
> (also aft). Then pull the propeller through 6 to 8
> blades, complete your
> preflight, strap in, and start the engine. As I
> said, this published procedure
> has gotten me through a winter and a half with no
> problems. Granted, in
> Virginia we really don't get the really cold
> weather, but I have started the
> engine down to about freezing. One other thing I do
> on a regular basis when I
> know my next start might be in cold temperatures - I
> keep a light bulb under
> the engine (you can get it in underneath by the nose
> gear leg) with a blanket
> over the cowling and cowling intake plugs in place.
> This seems to help and
> probably raises the engine compartment temperature
> at least 10 degrees or so
> above ambient outside air temperature. I used to
> do this trick with my Bonanza
> using two light bulbs and I could raise the temp
> around the engine from 15
> to 20 degrees. Engine pre-heaters also work, but
> the light bulb is simple and
> basically is "cheap". Just takes a few seconds
> before you close the hangar
> door and a few seconds more to remove before your
> next flight. PS - don't
> let a 100 watt bulb touch your bottom fiberglass
> cowling for 2 1/2 weeks while
> you drive your new Corvette to Colorado or you will
> end up with a small brown
> spot on the outside of your bottom cowling. Yep, I
> did that. I now use a
> 60 watt bulb. In fact, don't let the bulb touch
> the fiberglass at all- rest
> it on the exhaust or use some other way to suspend
> it near the bottom of the
> engine.
> -Dennis, I sent photos of my auto pilot servos
> installation several months
> ago. I take it that you did not get those or that
> you could not display them.
> I will find have to find them again and resend.
> The TruTrak system is
> great.
> Folks, keep the info flow ongoing. Remember
> that the list included
> those that have built, those that are building,
> those that are considering
> building, and those that are just gathering
> information to help them decide at some
> later date what airplane to build. All can benefit
> from the list - so don't
> hesitate to put in your $.02 worth.
> Blue Skies,
> Buz
>
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Message 12
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Hey Buz and the rest of you Lightning folks: I really appreciate your
comments. I am just a wannabe for the moment. And most likely until I can convince
my wife we need to sell the Bonanza (N2JX). It has a lot of modifications,
including an IO-550 and 3400 lb gross weight, so if any of you know of someone
that is looking for a great airplane, send them my way.
I had sent a request for a test flight to the lightning home, but I
suppose they will not read the e-mail until sometime next week. Since the light
sport expo was in Sebring (about 20 miles from here) I had hoped for a good
chance for a flight.
I will continue to lurk on this site, and see what all I can learn.
Lynn Nelsen
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Interesting question. I am familiar with Innodyn and they have a 185hp
turbine that weighs less than 180lbs, so the weight is about right. There's
a foreign aircraft manufacturer, can't recall the name, something like an
"Excite" or "Extreme" which looks like a Lightning with tip tanks, a 180hp
turbine, tailwheel, 5 bladed GT prop. It cruises right at 300mph and top
speed was about 320mph I think. I believe fuel burn was about 10 gph. I'll
have to see if I can find the site. Think the company might have tanked
since they didn't have much updated.
As for a 250mph cruise. Well it's been dive tested to about 240 something
true. I have not been up that high though, I've only been to about 200.
Nick might can give you an idea for a "what if" airplane. I know that
Innodyn also makes a 165 hp version. Perhaps one of thes on the plane could
work. I think that a tailwheel version could also be possible. I think
that you'd want that to get the size prop you need on that thing. Very cool
idea though. Let me know if you end up trying some things like this, would
be an interesting project. Brian W.
_________________________________________________________________
Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. Who will win?
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Hey Charles,
Where in Virginia are you? I am based at JGG and FKN.
As to your questions and aspirations for a 250 mile per hour cruise and
a 200 mile range, I think you should look at a Lancair IV or some other
aircraft designed for that mission. The Lightning Vne is 208 and it is stressed
for +5, not +9. Some of the individual structures of the Lightning may have
been tested to 9, but the data / information is quite clear that it is a 5 G
airplane.
Of course, it is a homebuilt and you the builder can make changes as you
see fit, but then it becomes a "Charles Special" and not a Lightning. The
Innodyn turbine is certainly an interesting engine and the one of around 205
HP could probably achieve the speeds you are talking about if you had a clean
airframe, the right propeller (expensive), and a perfectly designed air inlet
which would probably require lots of testing and changes to optimize the air
flow to the turbine. Of course, fuel consumption is higher than for an
internal combustion engine, so you would have to GREATLY increase the capacity
of
your fuel tanks to even match the current Lightning range. A 2000 mile XC
leg that you mentioned would probably require some sort of external tanks in
order to increase fuel capacity to the amount you would require. So with all
these changes, why not just start with an airplane design that is aimed at
the mission you describe.
Remember the mission goals for the Lightning were more along the lines
of - a great looking safe airplane that is fast and economical to build, and
fast and economical to fly. The current Lightning certainly meets those
goals.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Message 15
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By "leg" I didn't mean that I actually wanted to fly
2000 miles at once. I can break the trip up as many
times as necessary, so extra gas storage for the
Lightning wouldn't really be necessary. I did some
searching on Innodyn's website and saw someone who put
an Innodyne turbine in a Cub if I remember correctly.
Another 165 HP Innodyn turbine was put in an RV4 and
there is video of it and the Cub on Innodyn's website.
The sound of the turbine really is sweet! He was
having trouble making the brand new engine run
efficiently and it was determined that the engine
wasn't getting enough air, so a larger intake opening
in the cowling was made for it, and then it operated
perfectly. It is interesting to note that Innodyn
suggests that their turbines run most efficiently when
at full power setting. They are burning about 7
gallons per 100 hp (horse power). If the Lightning can
cruise at least 50mph faster, then the extra fuel burn
would be worth it. I am going to call Innodyn on
Monday to see if they think it can be installed in a
Lightning and if so, what kind of cruise speed might
happen. Interestingly, the turbine can also be used
for helicopter operation; they have a list of some
planes it can definitely be used in on the Innodyn
website- mostly RV's and canard type planes are
listed. If it can go in an RV4 why not in a Lightning?
@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <cdewey6969@yahoo.com>
>
> Great to hear updates from everybody. Curious how
> Dennis Down Under is doing with the installation of
> the 8 cylinder Jabiru. Innodyn has an inexpensive
> turbine- anyone know whether the Lightning could
> take
> this engine? I know the Vne is 205 or so, but any
> guesses as to what the plane will do with a turbine?
> Could the plane handle a 250 mph cruise??? Afterall,
> ther is a guy with a Lancair Legacy racing in Reno
> with a jet engine and beating most everyone. If the
> Lightning is stressed to +-9 g's, why can't it
> handle
> 250+mph!!! I plan on flying 2000 mile legs regularly
> in my Lightning, so speed is important. BRS
> parachute
> will be in my plane, so I would feel safe going
> faster
> than the Vne. Charles in Virginia (currently
> building a Lightning)
> --- N1BZRich@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Hey Lightning folks,
> > I knew we could generate some message traffic
> if
> > I just asked for
> > project updates. Thanks to Earl, Brian, Linda,
> > John, Lynn, Rick, Walt and our
> > down under friend, Dennis, for providing some
> > feedback. As you all can see, a
> > few are flying and several other are really
> getting
> > close. Those that have
> > flown are very pleased with their birds and, as
> far
> > as I can tell, all those
> > getting close have been pleased with the build
> > process and especially the
> > support in Tennessee. One thing that I think is
> > great is that those that have
> > built the Lightning so far have put in the extra
> > effort to insure top quality
> > airplanes in fit and finish. Outstanding paint
> > jobs, great panels and
> > interiors - it only takes a little extra effort
> to
> > do it right and the Lightning
> > design certainly deserves that. I think the
> > Lightning builders are going to get
> > a great reputation as a group that produces great
> > looking and great flying
> > airplanes. Congratulations to all of you and the
> > Lightning team in
> > Shelbyville.
> > Now to answer or comment on some of your
> > messages:
> > -Brian, I am sure all builders are looking forward
> > to your results with the
> > drag clean up experiments. Hope the stuff I left
> > with Nick for you comes in
> > handy. If you can achieve even half of the cruise
>
> > improvements that you are
> > looking for you will have been successful. It is
> a
> > clean design already, but
> > you have zeroed in on those places that I think
> > could be improved on. In
> > the long run, I am sure Nick and Pete will want
> to
> > incorporate some of your
> > improvements (flap hinges) into the basic design.
>
> > Keep us informed.
> > -As to cold weather starting and other engine
> > questions. I am into my
> > second winter since starting to fly my airplane
> and
> > in the past 13 months I have
> > about 238 hours on this 3300 Jabiru. I couldn't
> be
> > more pleased with this
> > little jewel of an engine. The only maintenance
> has
> > been regular oil changes
> > and new plugs at the 100 and 200 hour points.
> Heck,
> > when plugs cost less than
> > $2.00 each why ever clean a plug. Just replace.
> > Plugs and oil filters (
> > $4.00 or so) are available at any local auto parts
>
> > store. Lynn asked about oil
> > leaks (Continentals seem to all leak) and
> > vibrations. I can say I have seen
> > no oil leaks. One thing that Jabiru did right
> was
> > to use O-rings instead of
> > gaskets - hence, no leaks. Also, the engine is
> > very smooth when running. If
> > you are having a vibration it is either the
> > propeller or spinner that is
> > causing the problem. As to cold weather
> starting,
> > if you follow the published
> > procedures, no problems down to temperatures
> where
> > I really don't like to fly.
> > (I should have moved to Florida many years ago.)
> > Basically, for a cold
> > weather start, pull the choke fully on (aft) and
> > the throttle completely closed
> > (also aft). Then pull the propeller through 6 to
> 8
> > blades, complete your
> > preflight, strap in, and start the engine. As I
> > said, this published procedure
> > has gotten me through a winter and a half with no
> > problems. Granted, in
> > Virginia we really don't get the really cold
> > weather, but I have started the
> > engine down to about freezing. One other thing I
> do
> > on a regular basis when I
> > know my next start might be in cold temperatures -
> I
> > keep a light bulb under
> > the engine (you can get it in underneath by the
> nose
> > gear leg) with a blanket
> > over the cowling and cowling intake plugs in
> place.
> > This seems to help and
> > probably raises the engine compartment
> temperature
> > at least 10 degrees or so
> > above ambient outside air temperature. I used to
> > do this trick with my Bonanza
> > using two light bulbs and I could raise the temp
> > around the engine from 15
> > to 20 degrees. Engine pre-heaters also work, but
> > the light bulb is simple and
> > basically is "cheap". Just takes a few seconds
> > before you close the hangar
> > door and a few seconds more to remove before your
> > next flight. PS - don't
> > let a 100 watt bulb touch your bottom fiberglass
> > cowling for 2 1/2 weeks while
> > you drive your new Corvette to Colorado or you
> will
> > end up with a small brown
> > spot on the outside of your bottom cowling. Yep,
> I
> > did that. I now use a
> > 60 watt bulb. In fact, don't let the bulb touch
> > the fiberglass at all- rest
> > it on the exhaust or use some other way to suspend
> > it near the bottom of the
> > engine.
> > -Dennis, I sent photos of my auto pilot servos
> > installation several months
> > ago. I take it that you did not get those or that
> > you could not display them.
> > I will find have to find them again and resend.
> > The TruTrak system is
> > great.
> > Folks, keep the info flow ongoing. Remember
> > that the list included
> > those that have built, those that are building,
> > those that are considering
> > building, and those that are just gathering
> > information to help them decide at some
> > later date what airplane to build. All can
> benefit
> > from the list - so don't
> > hesitate to put in your $.02 worth.
> > Blue Skies,
> > Buz
> >
>
>
>
>
> Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000
> hotels
> in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your
> fit.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
>
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Brian, I google'd "excite airplane" and nothing but
radio controlled planes came up. Any chance that the
plane you were thinking of is the freebird extreme? It
is at www.freebirdextreme.com. It's mock-up in a
trailer has been at all the air shows. The jet version
of that plane is at least a couple of years off from
being made, if they ever go through with it. I don't
think they even have the LSA or experimental version
flying yet. The company just traded hands in the fall.
Do you or anyone out there know of 2-seater light jet
that is fuel efficient and fast without spending a
fortune (and with BRS)? Would love to make the
Lightning as close to super fast as possible and would
be willing to be the guinea pig.
--- Brian Whittingham <dashvii@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Whittingham" <dashvii@hotmail.com>
>
> Interesting question. I am familiar with Innodyn
> and they have a 185hp
> turbine that weighs less than 180lbs, so the weight
> is about right. There's
> a foreign aircraft manufacturer, can't recall the
> name, something like an
> "Excite" or "Extreme" which looks like a Lightning
> with tip tanks, a 180hp
> turbine, tailwheel, 5 bladed GT prop. It cruises
> right at 300mph and top
> speed was about 320mph I think. I believe fuel burn
> was about 10 gph. I'll
> have to see if I can find the site. Think the
> company might have tanked
> since they didn't have much updated.
>
> As for a 250mph cruise. Well it's been dive tested
> to about 240 something
> true. I have not been up that high though, I've
> only been to about 200.
> Nick might can give you an idea for a "what if"
> airplane. I know that
> Innodyn also makes a 165 hp version. Perhaps one of
> thes on the plane could
> work. I think that a tailwheel version could also
> be possible. I think
> that you'd want that to get the size prop you need
> on that thing. Very cool
> idea though. Let me know if you end up trying some
> things like this, would
> be an interesting project. Brian W.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship
> Series. Who will win?
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
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IMHO the Innodyne should be viewed with a healthy skepticism. Likely to have VERY
HIGH fuel burns at typically used altitudes. If you could get up to the FL's
and stay up for a long time it might have potential. No way to get that
much fuel into a Lightning.
Please review this thread on Van's Airforce. First customer Innodyne RV-8 (Jim
Benson in Colorado) has posted a couple of times. The lastest is that "We lost
an inch off the turbine wheel." Translation...the engine is already being
rebuilt after just a few hours of early testing.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=12103
Dan
Interesting question. I am familiar with Innodyn and they have a 185hp
turbine that weighs less than 180lbs, so the weight is about right. There's
a foreign aircraft manufacturer, can't recall the name, something like an
"Excite" or "Extreme" which looks like a Lightning with tip tanks, a 180hp
turbine, tailwheel, 5 bladed GT prop. It cruises right at 300mph and top
speed was about 320mph I think. I believe fuel burn was about 10 gph. I'll
have to see if I can find the site. Think the company might have tanked
since they didn't have much updated.
As for a 250mph cruise. Well it's been dive tested to about 240 something
true. I have not been up that high though, I've only been to about 200.
Nick might can give you an idea for a "what if" airplane. I know that
Innodyn also makes a 165 hp version. Perhaps one of thes on the plane could
work. I think that a tailwheel version could also be possible. I think
that you'd want that to get the size prop you need on that thing. Very cool
idea though. Let me know if you end up trying some things like this, would
be an interesting project. Brian W.
_________________________________________________________________
Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. Who will win?
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| Subject: | Jab 5100 Future? |
Somebody brought up the 8-cyl Jabiru 5100. You guys in Tenn must have inside knowledge
on this issue. My understanding was that the factory in Australia discontinued
the engine because of problems with early production engines...combined
with need for more production capacity for the 3300.
What were the problems with the 5100?
What are it's chances of re-entering production?
Thanks...
Dan
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 5100 Future? |
Hi All,
The Jabiru 8cyl is currently out of production due the
overwhelming demand for the 4 and 6 cyl engines.
The factory said that there have been no technical
issues with the 180hp engine. They just cant supply
enough of the others at this stage with current orders
not being able to be met till sept/Oct.
They are increasing production capacity and will be
offering the 180hp engine again as soon as they begin
to catch up with the 4s and 6s.
Laurie
Sydney
--- Daniel Vandenberg <djvdb63@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Somebody brought up the 8-cyl Jabiru 5100. You guys
> in Tenn must have inside knowledge on this issue.
> My understanding was that the factory in Australia
> discontinued the engine because of problems with
> early production engines...combined with need for
> more production capacity for the 3300.
>
> What were the problems with the 5100?
>
> What are it's chances of re-entering production?
>
> Thanks...
>
> Dan
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Charles,
Interesting airplane, but not the one that I'm thinking of. I've got a
picture of it saved at work and I'll see if I can find what the company is
tomorrow. Can't remember at all the name of the company. I know it's
overseas though, Brian W.
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BRS parachute
will be in my plane, so I would feel safe going faster
than the Vne. Charles in Virginia (currently
building a Lightning)
Charles....
Here is some food for thought on the BRS. Be careful not to let the presence of
a BRS breed a false confidence.
I was just reading last night in Flying magazne (Feb 2007 Richard Collins p30)
about Cirrus accidents and the unexpectedly high accident rate of this supposedly
"safer" airplane. The safety record has come in just about like the much
older retractables in the same class. If you factor out the BRS "saves" that
have been documented, the Cirrus safety record would be much worse than Bonanzas/Comanches/etc.
One (among several) of the concerns about the Cirrus safety record is that pilots
may be pushing the safety envelope somewhat because of the BRS security blanket.
This may, in effect, negate the safety advantage of having the parachute
on board. Mr. Collins wondered whether the BRS may be similar to the second
engine on a light twin...leading pilots to do things they would not do with a
single engine...leading them into trouble.
Seems to me pilots should fly the same (carefully and conservatively) with or without
the BRS. Then, in the rare circumstance of need (mid-air collision, structural
failure, power-loss over rough terrain) the BRS improves the odds of
survival.
But "pushing the performance envelope" because of the presence of the BRS needs
to be carefully considered...and probably discarded..as a factor in flight planning
and flying.
My $.02
Dan
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| Subject: | information on the Lightning |
I saw the Lightning at Sebring and am very interested in the possibilities
of this aircraft. The design seems to meet everything that I am looking for
in a small fast glass airplane. I am confused about some of the
specifications though and maybe some of you who have built and flown the
aircraft and help me.
- The specs say a 17:1 glide ratio with a wing of 90 sq ft? How is
this possible? The CT has a large wing and a 13:1 GR?
- Take off roll of 310ft?
- The price list has an option for dual brakes. Doesn't the
aircraft come with brakes as standard equip?
- Is the nose wheel castering or steerable?
- What is the delivery schedule at this point?
Thanks for any feedback you all can give.
Jim!
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 5100 Future? |
Laurie...
That's good to hear. I'm fighting the "Lightning vs. RV-9A" battle in my head.
This has been discussed before on this list. The 5100 would be a great engine
for the 9. It may be for the Lightning too if the factory approves in the
future.
By the way...to the factory...for those of us watching the Lightning development,
more frequent updates on the website would be helpful. As far as I can tell
the only update to the website (other than adding a computerized digital paint
job to the prototype flying picture on the homepage) since August has been
to the price :-(
Why not start a section on the home page that give weekly or monthly updates something
like the following:
1. Number of kits paid for...
2. Number of kits delivered to customers (either to the builders center or at
home)
3. Number of kits under construction at the factory assistance center
4. Number of kits under construction at customers's homes/shops
5. Number of kits completed and flown.
This sort of information, combined with more frequent photo updates of customer's
projects and prototype improvements, would help us potential customers to feel
confident that the Lightning is in the early stages of a long and successful
production run.
Dan
Hi All,
The Jabiru 8cyl is currently out of production due the
overwhelming demand for the 4 and 6 cyl engines.
The factory said that there have been no technical
issues with the 180hp engine. They just cant supply
enough of the others at this stage with current orders
not being able to be met till sept/Oct.
They are increasing production capacity and will be
offering the 180hp engine again as soon as they begin
to catch up with the 4s and 6s.
Laurie
Sydney
--- Daniel Vandenberg wrote:
> Somebody brought up the 8-cyl Jabiru 5100. You guys
> in Tenn must have inside knowledge on this issue.
> My understanding was that the factory in Australia
> discontinued the engine because of problems with
> early production engines...combined with need for
> more production capacity for the 3300.
>
> What were the problems with the 5100?
>
> What are it's chances of re-entering production?
>
> Thanks...
>
> Dan
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning w/Turbine..... |
Hey Charles, and Brian.
You guys by chance aren't talking about the "Impulse" design in Germany are
you?
They designed a series of very cool looking aircraft(taildragger was one
sleek airplane!)that used anything from a Rotax 912 on up to a really hot
one with a turbine.
If I understand correctly, they had so many people willing to spend the $$$
to buy the turbine one, they essentially killed off all the other models.
They DID have a nice website, but it is also history now.
I know of no way to contact any of the principals involved....I did have a
couple of their email addys, but when I requested info, they basically told
me "we are to busy to talk to you"....!
Rick
>From: "Brian Whittingham" <dashvii@hotmail.com>
>To: lightning-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning
>Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:28:57 -0600
>
><dashvii@hotmail.com>
>
>Charles,
> Interesting airplane, but not the one that I'm thinking of. I've got a
>picture of it saved at work and I'll see if I can find what the company is
>tomorrow. Can't remember at all the name of the company. I know it's
>overseas though, Brian W.
>
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning w/Turbine..... |
Rick,
You got it, the Capco Impulse Xtreme! Turbine powered, 310mph at full
throttle, cruise at 264mph, burning 15gph and climbs at 8000 feet per
minute! Couldn't find a power rating there though. Take a look:
http://www.capco-aviation.be/Impulse%20Aircraft.htm Never flown the
aircraft, but the turboprop at the bottom of the page looks like a hoot.
Thanks, Brian W.
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In a message dated 1/14/2007 6:15:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cdewey6969@yahoo.com writes:
It is interesting to note that Innodyn
suggests that their turbines run most efficiently when
at full power setting.
Charles,
If I am not mistaken, the Innodyn runs at 100% power all the time. The
controlled pitch propeller is how they vary the thrust. This is what I
remember when I was reading up on their company several years ago. I had thoughts
of doing what you are thinking about, but I was going to use an RV as a test
aircraft - not the Lightning.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: information on the Lightning |
Jim,
I am sure the Lightning guys will answer your questions when they get
back from Sebring and get caught up, but until then here are my thoughts on
your questions:
- The specs say a 17:1 glide ratio with a wing of 90 sq ft? How
is this possible? The CT has a large wing and a 13:1 GR?
Different airfoil, less drag, less weight. Probably a
combination of all of these.
When you fly one you will sometimes wish you had speed brakes.
- Take off roll of 310ft?
Yep, depending on the prop and whether you build your Lightning as light
sport compliant, but probably not at gross weight on a hot day. That would
be
closer to 500 ft.
- The price list has an option for dual brakes. Doesn=99t t
he
aircraft come with brakes as standard equip?
The aircraft comes with toe brakes on the pilot side as standard. Dual
brakes would include brakes on the co-pilot side as well.
- Is the nose wheel castering or steerable?
Castering - 30 degrees each side of center.
- What is the delivery schedule at this point?
Probably depends on how many they sold at Sebring, but call them next week
for the real answer.
Jim, hope this helps. The Lightning is a super airplane if you are looking
to get in the air quickly and at an economical cost. It is a dream to fly
.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Message 28
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| Subject: | information on the Lightning |
Jim,
To answer some of your questions. I haven't verified the glide ratio,
but it is high due to wing loading. Also the wing is a pretty thick wing.
I saw the Lightning at Sebring and am very interested in the possibilities
of this aircraft. The design seems to meet everything that I am looking for
in a small fast glass airplane. I am confused about some of the
specifications though and maybe some of you who have built and flown the
aircraft and help me. The takeoff roll is extremely short. With 2 of us on
board, full fuel and about 20 lbs of baggage we took off from Carlsbad, NM
at 4000 feet field elevation and 105 degree temps in maybe 500 feet. The
optional dual brakes if for brakes in the passenger side floor. The
prototype only has brakes on the pilot's side. The nosewheel is castering,
which means extremely tight turns on the ground. Anymore that I can help,
let me know. Brian W.
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Jab 5100 Future? |
Check out this article:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4785/
It mentions a one off Jabiru fuel injected, turbocharged engine. Would like
to know more about that. Also take a look at this one:
http://www.masquito.be/m26.htm It's basically a self-proclaimed rip off of
the Jabiru engine, that is fuel injected. It is a four cylinder that is in
between in size, but a 120hp out of 2500 cc's. It has only run at about
90hp so far and the 120 is what they project. Interesting. Looks almost
identical to the Jabiru, which is what they started with. Brian W.
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning w/Turbine..... |
Thanks to all for the helpful input! As Buz sez- Blue
Sky to all!
--- Brian Whittingham <dashvii@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Whittingham" <dashvii@hotmail.com>
>
> Rick,
> You got it, the Capco Impulse Xtreme! Turbine
> powered, 310mph at full
> throttle, cruise at 264mph, burning 15gph and climbs
> at 8000 feet per
> minute! Couldn't find a power rating there though.
> Take a look:
> http://www.capco-aviation.be/Impulse%20Aircraft.htm
> Never flown the
> aircraft, but the turboprop at the bottom of the
> page looks like a hoot.
> Thanks, Brian W.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
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>
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