---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/23/07: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:10 AM - Re: Thoughts on Upgrades (Scotty) 2. 06:14 AM - Re: Very fun ...but not aerobatic (nick otterback) 3. 03:47 PM - best glide V. AOA (Brian Whittingham) 4. 05:04 PM - Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Jim Langley) 5. 06:39 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (John D. Williams) 6. 06:51 PM - Re: best glide V. AOA (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 7. 07:01 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 8. 07:14 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 9. 07:35 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (pequeajim) 10. 07:51 PM - AOA indicators and other test data info (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 11. 07:56 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Charles Dewey) 12. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Brian Whittingham) 13. 08:05 PM - Re: AOA indicators and other test data info (Jim Langley) 14. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Jim Langley) 15. 08:10 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Brian Whittingham) 16. 08:13 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 17. 08:15 PM - Re: AOA indicators and other test data info (Brian Whittingham) 18. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 19. 08:26 PM - Re: AOA indicators and other test data info (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 20. 08:28 PM - Re: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Brian Whittingham) 21. 08:30 PM - Moving on... (pequeajim) 22. 08:33 PM - Re: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Brian Whittingham) 23. 08:36 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Charles Dewey) 24. 08:46 PM - Brian's move to Texas (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 25. 08:48 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Brian Whittingham) 26. 08:51 PM - Re: Moving on... (Charles Dewey) 27. 09:00 PM - Re: Moving on... (Jim Langley) 28. 09:09 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (Charles Dewey) 29. 09:16 PM - Enigma (Fry) 30. 09:42 PM - Re: Moving on... (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 31. 11:15 PM - Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR (MR PAUL MITCHELL) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:04 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Thoughts on Upgrades From: "Scotty" Wouldn't an Angle of Attack indicator tell you the best glide speed, or do I understand the things all wrong? [Rolling Eyes] -------- Scotty He who doesn't read the news is UN-informed. He who reads the news is IL-informed. Mark Twain Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89719#89719 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:36 AM PST US From: nick otterback Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Very fun ...but not aerobatic The lightning is an experimental aircraft and is operated in what ever fashion the builder sees fit along with hopefully the recommendations from the kit manufacturer. And in this case is rated to +5 -3 gs nick ittingham wrote: Yes, I probably should put a disclaimer on my email there. It is a normal category aircraft, not an aerobatic aircraft. It is highly manueverable though and have both seen it rolled and have read others that have rolled it. You could roll a Cherokee 140 though if you had the mind to. Basically you are making yourself into a test pilot since these conditions were never tested by the company. I'm sure that they don't want the liability of saying that you could when they haven't tested it either. Again I don't work for the company and am therefore not an authorized spokesperson. Just lucky enough to have flown the Lightning's and live in the area so I can check up on the progress from time to time. Good catch there Nick, Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos, recipes and more on your Live.com page. http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701 --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:33 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: Lightning-List: best glide V. AOA The easiest way that I've found to determine a best glide speed is to do a power off decent at select airspeeds and record the amount of decent versus a certain time period. The clock and altimeter haver to be utilized as the rate of climb indicator is a trend instrument. A start and end altitude is best. Then it's pretty easy to plot and get a best fit line. At the top of that line is where the least amount of sink for a given distance is. You can do this in probably 5 minutes and get a good indication. If you really want to refine it then you get the range of numbers where the trend reverses and you go up and do another set within those numbers. All angle of attack indicators that I am aware of give you an arbitrary AOA unit which doesn't relate to the degrees. I don't believe that an AOA indicator would allow you to get the precise number for a best glide. I'm not really sold on the indicators that don't have to be calibrated for your specific aircraft either because different airfoils stall at some pretty different angles of attack. I haven't really got any time flying an AOA indicator though. Perhaps some of you who have a lot more time with the instrument can express what you think of a non-aircraft specific AOA Indicator? Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ Get Hilary Duffs homepage with her photos, music, and more. http://celebrities.live.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:08 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR What would be the best way to equip a Lightning for IFR? Is the 3300 a certified engine? I was thinking mostly a glass panel witha 496 GPS and minimal gages. Has anyone equipped their Lightning for IFR yet? Jim! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:46 PM PST US From: "John D. Williams" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR I too, am interested in Jim's question. What list of avionics would be considered a 'good' panel vs. a 'great' panel? I heard about Linda's panel - all top of the line Chelton avionics. I imagine her panel is what everyone would consider to be a 'dream' panel, only obtainable upon winning the lottery before building a Lightning. How about a photo of the different panels that each builder has come up with so far?? Thanks for everyone's input, John Jim Langley wrote: > What would be the best way to equip a Lightning for IFR? Is the 3300 a > certified engine? > > I was thinking mostly a glass panel witha 496 GPS and minimal gages. > > Has anyone equipped their Lightning for IFR yet? > > Jim! > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:54 PM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: best glide V. AOA I have an AOA kit that was designed for an RV6A If anyone is interested in it, let me know. I have no interest in it. Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 1/23/2007 6:49:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, dashvii@hotmail.com writes: --> Lightning-List message posted by: "Brian Whittingham" The easiest way that I've found to determine a best glide speed is to do a power off decent at select airspeeds and record the amount of decent versus a certain time period. The clock and altimeter haver to be utilized as the rate of climb indicator is a trend instrument. A start and end altitude is best. Then it's pretty easy to plot and get a best fit line. At the top of that line is where the least amount of sink for a given distance is. You can do this in probably 5 minutes and get a good indication. If you really want to refine it then you get the range of numbers where the trend reverses and you go up and do another set within those numbers. All angle of attack indicators that I am aware of give you an arbitrary AOA unit which doesn't relate to the degrees. I don't believe that an AOA indicator would allow you to get the precise number for a best glide. I'm not really sold on the indicators that don't have to be calibrated for your specific aircraft either because different airfoils stall at some pretty different angles of attack. I haven't really got any time flying an AOA indicator though. Perhaps some of you who have a lot more time with the instrument can express what you think of a non-aircraft specific AOA Indicator? Brian W. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:14 PM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR In a message dated 1/23/2007 8:05:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, pequeajim@gmail.com writes: What would be the best way to equip a Lightning for IFR? Is the 3300 a certified engine? I was thinking mostly a glass panel witha 496 GPS and minimal gages. Has anyone equipped their Lightning for IFR yet? Jim! It depends on the kind of IFR you are really interested in. It doesnt matter if the 3300 is certified or not. It will drive a vacuum pump, that will satisfy the gyro requirements. The radios are not difficult, tho you may need a seperate alternator. Because of the agility and the susceptabilty to "bumps", it is not the "stable platform" many of us are familiar with in conducting IFR flight and approaches. I would only consider "light IFR" If you want be be legal enough to punch through some clouds on either end of a flight, it is not a big deal. If you want to do approaches to minimums at night in winter through freezing rain, you are a damn fool that would do all of us a favor if you selected another bird There are some lessons to be learned from the Cirrus guys. A fast plastic plane with a parachute does not always make for a safe flight. Doug Koenigsberg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:59 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Jim, My panel has the dual Grand Rapids EFIS system installed. I will attach a picture. When I was at the local FAA office (Richmond) to get my Repairman's certificate, I asked what I would need to fly my airplane IFR. I had previously asked the Atlanta office the same question while I was still in Shelbyville. The answer was that I would need some sort of basic VOR and a heated pitot tube. I think the best person to answer this question will be Linda and Joe, since they actually plan to do just that. No need to install a 396 or 496 for their functions ( just use any hand held as a back up). But do order your GRT EFIS with a built in GPS, the terrain data base, and the XM weather upgrade and you will have everything on the "big screen". The first time you use the synthetic GPS approach steering you will be wowed - just tell it which airport you are going to and which runway you want to use. Amazing. Blue Skies, Buz ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:24 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR From: "pequeajim" THanks Buz for the information. The main reason that I would want to equip the aircraft for IFR is that I want to use to gain the hours and experience towards my instrument rating. I only care about the safe minimum that I need. I will check out the GRT EFIS as well. I think a friend of mine has one in his Moose, and if it is indeed the same, it was impressive! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89979#89979 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:06 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Lightning-List: AOA indicators and other test data info I have used AOA extensively in the F-4, both for landing and for max performing the airplane in air combat (dog fights). For those purposes it is good. However for general /sport aviation uses, my thought is that it would not be worth the effort or expense - just "eye candy". And no, some specific AOA will not tell you best L/D. We know what Vx, Vy, and best glide speed are for the prototype. Nick determined these numbers during the flight test period. You will do the same thing during your test period for your specific aircraft. You basically do what Brain was talking about, but the more times you run the test and the more accurate you are in holding specific speeds, the more accurate your results are. I spend about five hours of flight time doing this for 31BZ. I would start a climb at 1000 feet at some specific airspeed and try to have my speed nailed passing 2,000 feet where I hit the stop watch. Then passing 3,000 feet, stop the stop watch and note the time in seconds it took to climb the 1000 feet at what ever speed you are testing. Then since you are now above 3000, pull the power back and hold some specific glide speed while you start down. Hit the stop watch as you pass 3000, holding your speed and stop the watch when you go through 2000 feet. Note the time in seconds it took at that specific glide speed. Now you have one data point for rate of climb and one data point for one glide speed. Now do this over and over until you have covered a range of speeds both below and above what you think will be your best climb and best glide. Yes, it gets boring. Then graph the numbers for both climb and glide and it will become apparent what best climb and glide speeds are. There are some other considerations, but for this e-mail, I think you get the picture. Blue Skies, Buz ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:29 PM PST US From: Charles Dewey Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR I am putting the following Dynon in my Lightning: FlightDek-D180 "Dynon's FlightDEK represents a new class of glass-cockpit avionics that combines all EFIS and EMS functions into a single unit. This large screen instrument seamlessly blends both functions through intelligent use of graphics and its user-configured split-screen technology. When looking to save money, panel space and weight there's simply no better buy than Dynon's FlightDEK-D180." Anyone out there have any comments on the choice of this package? Will I be able to make it IFR later? How does it compare to the Grand Rapids system Buz chose and Linda's Chelton system??? This instrument features: 10 Flight Instruments 16 Different Types of Engine Gauges Bright Color LCD Multi-Page Display Supports Different Engine Types Configurable Alarms User-Friendly Operation Affordable Price --- N1BZRich@aol.com wrote: > Jim, > My panel has the dual Grand Rapids EFIS system > installed. I will attach > a picture. When I was at the local FAA office > (Richmond) to get my > Repairman's certificate, I asked what I would need > to fly my airplane IFR. I had > previously asked the Atlanta office the same > question while I was still in > Shelbyville. The answer was that I would need some > sort of basic VOR and a heated > pitot tube. I think the best person to answer this > question will be Linda > and Joe, since they actually plan to do just that. > No need to install a 396 or 496 for their > functions ( just use any hand > held as a back up). But do order your GRT EFIS > with a built in GPS, the > terrain data base, and the XM weather upgrade and > you will have everything on the > "big screen". The first time you use the synthetic > GPS approach steering > you will be wowed - just tell it which airport you > are going to and which > runway you want to use. Amazing. > Blue Skies, > Buz > Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:32 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Jim, I'd agree with Doug on his points. You can do some practice approaches though all day long in the plane. There's nothing keeping you from putting in a VOR head and steam gauges if you want. Also I've got 4-5 or 6 panels that I have pics of, I'll see if I can find them and post them in the next day or so. I did some research to find out if you could use a special light sport aircraft (note that the Lightning is an E-LSA not an S-LSA) but the question that I had was that if an SLSA plane were equipped with a Jabiru engine would it be legal to flight instruct for compensation of hire in such an aircraft and the equipment and engine? I called several FAA people and they all told me that there is no restrictions on using an SLSA for flight training, but the manufacturer of the engine can put a restriction on it. An example is that at least on model of the Rotax prohibits night and/or IFR flight. Probably a liability issue. Now the LSA allows for an airplane to fly without a gyroscopic system so you can use an EFIS all day long without standby attitude indicator. You do need the extra VOR head and I think that if you are using dual EFIS without any kind of gyros then you have to have a backup power system whether it's a second battery/alternator or whatever. There are no such restrictions on flying the Jabiru engine at night or in IFR that I'm aware of. THe jabiru is a certified engine under JAR-22. They are not certified by the FAR part 33 though. What this means is that the company certified it overseas and doesn't want to pay to go through the same certifications here in the US and pay the extra cost. I believe it's the same with the Jabiru aircraft. Maybe Pete will chime in and clear this all up as I probably got some of it wrong, but from my memory this is the way it is. Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into something more. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:45 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: AOA indicators and other test data info Buz: When you do the glide speed testing, it is all done straight, no turns? On 1/23/07, N1BZRich@aol.com wrote: > > I have used AOA extensively in the F-4, both for landing and for max > performing the airplane in air combat (dog fights). For those purposes it > is good. However for general /sport aviation uses, my thought is that it > would not be worth the effort or expense - just "eye candy". And no, some > specific AOA will not tell you best L/D. We know what Vx, Vy, and best > glide speed are for the prototype. Nick determined these numbers during the > flight test period. You will do the same thing during your test period for > your specific aircraft. You basically do what Brain was talking about, but > the more times you run the test and the more accurate you are in holding > specific speeds, the more accurate your results are. I spend about five > hours of flight time doing this for 31BZ. I would start a climb at 1000 > feet at some specific airspeed and try to have my speed nailed passing 2,000 > feet where I hit the stop watch. Then passing 3,000 feet, stop the stop > watch and note the time in seconds it took to climb the 1000 feet at what > ever speed you are testing. Then since you are now above 3000, pull the > power back and hold some specific glide speed while you start down. Hit the > stop watch as you pass 3000, holding your speed and stop the watch when you > go through 2000 feet. Note the time in seconds it took at that specific > glide speed. Now you have one data point for rate of climb and one data > point for one glide speed. Now do this over and over until you have covered > a range of speeds both below and above what you think will be your best > climb and best glide. Yes, it gets boring. Then graph the numbers for both > climb and glide and it will become apparent what best climb and glide speeds > are. There are some other considerations, but for this e-mail, I think you > get the picture. > Blue Skies, > Buz > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:56 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR No is my understanding correct that rather than relying on a vacuum driven attitude indicator, a certified electric one will do the trick? On 1/23/07, Brian Whittingham wrote: > > dashvii@hotmail.com> > > Jim, > I'd agree with Doug on his points. You can do some practice approaches > though all day long in the plane. There's nothing keeping you from > putting > in a VOR head and steam gauges if you want. Also I've got 4-5 or 6 panels > that I have pics of, I'll see if I can find them and post them in the next > day or so. > > I did some research to find out if you could use a special light sport > aircraft (note that the Lightning is an E-LSA not an S-LSA) but the > question > that I had was that if an SLSA plane were equipped with a Jabiru engine > would it be legal to flight instruct for compensation of hire in such an > aircraft and the equipment and engine? I called several FAA people and > they > all told me that there is no restrictions on using an SLSA for flight > training, but the manufacturer of the engine can put a restriction on it. > An example is that at least on model of the Rotax prohibits night and/or > IFR > flight. Probably a liability issue. Now the LSA allows for an airplane > to > fly without a gyroscopic system so you can use an EFIS all day long > without > standby attitude indicator. You do need the extra VOR head and I think > that > if you are using dual EFIS without any kind of gyros then you have to have > a > backup power system whether it's a second battery/alternator or whatever. > There are no such restrictions on flying the Jabiru engine at night or in > IFR that I'm aware of. THe jabiru is a certified engine under > JAR-22. They > are not certified by the FAR part 33 though. What this means is that the > company certified it overseas and doesn't want to pay to go through the > same > certifications here in the US and pay the extra cost. I believe it's the > same with the Jabiru aircraft. > > Maybe Pete will chime in and clear this all up as I probably got some of > it > wrong, but from my memory this is the way it is. Brian W. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into > something more. > > http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:48 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Charles, Don't know about the Dynon, but I can vouch for the Grand Rapids. I also was around when one of the first aircraft was equipped for testing the Chelton line. It was a V-8, 450hp powered Lancair IV-P that would do 450mph in cruise at 18k feet! The company merged with another one after that to come up with the new Chelton. The Chelton is certified into many normal category aircraft, while the Grand Rapids is not. I still really love the Chelton and I think that in spite of it selling lower numbers than the G1000 or Avidyne systems it is the product that sets the standard. Now for the downside, a standard setter usually costs a little more. For the money my pick is exactly what Buz described, a two EFIS display with all the tricks, weather, terrain, GPS, etc. Also buy all the little extra sensors like Manifold Pressure. There's nothing that it won't do that the Chelton will. Now the software between those two will be totally different and you might like one or the other's menus better. There's still room for improvement in any of these products, but the Grand Rapids is one that I believe has been predominant because it's by far the best bang for your buck. I don't think that Nick cared too much for a Dynon screen, but I think that he's like me and flown with the GR EFIS more and therefore perhaps a little biased!? When in doubt, check them both out in person. Brian W. P.S. I might be more inclined to get the Chelton if I had more money that I currently do as well _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:53 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Charles, I have not flown the newest Dynon EFIS you describe, but it sounds like the GRT screens with their split screen options - all flight instruments, all engine instruments, or all GPS map, or any combination of the above on each screen. However, I will soon get to fly with the new Dynon as the EAA chapter airplane we are building has the Dynon (price consideration) and I will be making the initial flight in the airplane. At this point, I am sold on the Grand Rapids based on flying it for about 240 hours. I have a dual screen GRT panel. It does it all (with the built in GPS) to include a synthetic approach, terrain awareness, wind, G-meter, etc., etc. It will even do weather like the 396 and 496 if you spend an extra $1500 (less than buying a 396). I will likely do that sometime after Sun-N-Fun. GRT told me at Oshkosh if I would wait until SNF the weather option would also include XM radio. Wow, tunes while on a long cross country. Right now I have a CD player, but XM radio will be great. I have it in my hangar. I looked closely at the Dynon and chose the GRT for several reasons. One very important one, Pete and his guys are much more familiar with GRT having installed many of the units and they work closely with the factory. Dynon sent them several of their units to try, but they seemed to be slower to update - the display seemed to be jumpy in a fast pitch change or fast bank - and the units did not seem nearly as bright out in the sun when I looked at them at Oshkosh. The newer ones may be better, and as I said above, I will be flying behind one in the airplane the chapter built. By the way, all the features you mentioned for the Dynon sound just like the GRT EFIS. Suggest you find someone with each type and fly behind one of each. Or look at both at Sun-N-Fun and/or Oshkosh. Just my $.02 - your mileage may vary. Blue Skies, Buz ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:47 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: AOA indicators and other test data info Yes, the glide testing is done wings level. I forgot to mention what Buz did. He's describing a 1000 foot block of airspace that he sets up and fine tunes his flying skills to make sure that everything is established before getting to the testing section of airspace. If you're interested I have some good books that I can recommend. Some are more for the average joe and others are a little heavier reading. Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:01 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Actually the Lightning is NOT an E-LSA. It is an experimental (the same 51% rule that has always been in effect) aircraft that can be built to conform with the light sport rules and can thus be flown by a pilot operating as a sport pilot. As far as E-LSA, as I understand it, a company can not have an E-LSA until they have first got approval for an SLSA. In other words, after they have approval to sell SLSAs (turn key flying aircraft) they can then sell E-LSAs that are finished to some percent less than fully turn key. As Brian said, Pete will have the real words. Blue Skies, Buz ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:54 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: AOA indicators and other test data info In a message dated 1/23/2007 11:11:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pequeajim@gmail.com writes: When you do the glide speed testing, it is all done straight, no turns? Yes, that is the way I did it. Buz ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:11 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR That was my understanding of it. I don't have the FAR's in front of me right now. Pete would definately be the one to ask about that though. I'm sure he's answered it fifteen dozen times so he probably has it completely memorized backwards and forwards. I am forgetful sometimes but I know that I read that this light sport rule was trying to do away with some antiquanted rules such as the requirements for gyros. Instead the latest and greatest inventions such as the Dynon or Grand Rapids EFIS uses GPS and AHRS to interpret attitude. This is the kind of technology that would have cost a small fortune a decade ago and would only be in high end commercial jets or military aircraft. We're getting to the point where we have technology like or better than some commercial jets which use the Intertial Nav Systems or the older Inertial Reference Systems. Now what somebody described on here already the deal with the Cirrus is what we're getting into with all the "Electric Cockpits." You can give a pilot the ability to have the ultimate in situational awareness, but that doesn't make them situationally aware, and by the same token can't change their decision making skills. Some who would press the issues anyhow do so thinking that they can push through any thunder bumper with this technology. Just like the ballistic chute and the rate of Cirrus who have come down without deploying. Just because you have it doesn't mean you can make the pilot use it. From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR No is my understanding correct that rather than relying on a vacuum driven attitude indicator, a certified electric one will do the trick? On 1/23/07, Brian Whittingham wrote: > >dashvii@hotmail.com> > >Jim, > I'd agree with Doug on his points. You can do some practice approaches >though all day long in the plane. There's nothing keeping you from >putting >in a VOR head and steam gauges if you want. Also I've got 4-5 or 6 panels >that I have pics of, I'll see if I can find them and post them in the next >day or so. > >I did some research to find out if you could use a special light sport >aircraft (note that the Lightning is an E-LSA not an S-LSA) but the >question >that I had was that if an SLSA plane were equipped with a Jabiru engine >would it be legal to flight instruct for compensation of hire in such an >aircraft and the equipment and engine? I called several FAA people and >they >all told me that there is no restrictions on using an SLSA for flight >training, but the manufacturer of the engine can put a restriction on it. >An example is that at least on model of the Rotax prohibits night and/or >IFR >flight. Probably a liability issue. Now the LSA allows for an airplane >to >fly without a gyroscopic system so you can use an EFIS all day long >without >standby attitude indicator. You do need the extra VOR head and I think >that >if you are using dual EFIS without any kind of gyros then you have to have >a >backup power system whether it's a second battery/alternator or whatever. >There are no such restrictions on flying the Jabiru engine at night or in >IFR that I'm aware of. THe jabiru is a certified engine under >JAR-22. They >are not certified by the FAR part 33 though. What this means is that the >company certified it overseas and doesn't want to pay to go through the >same >certifications here in the US and pay the extra cost. I believe it's the >same with the Jabiru aircraft. > >Maybe Pete will chime in and clear this all up as I probably got some of >it >wrong, but from my memory this is the way it is. Brian W. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into >something more. > >http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG > > _________________________________________________________________ Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:35 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Moving on... From: "pequeajim" Well fellows, I am happy to report that tonight I received a committment from a buyer that they are buying my Murphy Rebel! This leaves the door open for the purchase of a new aircraft. I am 99% decided on the Lightning. I still have not flown it, or sat in one of the newer versions and want to do so before making a commitment. Additionally, I will need to plan out my finances accordingly to be sure I can coplete the aircraft in a timely manner. If you guys don't mind, I have a few basic ownership questions for you. What are the general insurance costs? (I have about 170 hours flight time) What is a realistic time to complete with builder assist? Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville, or do the sales centers have enough experience with this new design? I live in central PA and I was impressed with Green Landings. What type of other questions would you want answered before you buy? Thanks for your help. This list is refreshingly open and informative. Jim Langley Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90003#90003 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:30 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR That's what the light sport tour is for. It's confusing to a lot of folks. You wouldn't believe how many people that I talk to that say that they are looking for a 4 seat LSA!? By the way Buz, my wife got the job down in Houston at mission control so we'll be moving around this summer time. Really going to miss flying the Lightning's and Jabiru engines when we leave though. I have no clue what route I'll take when looking for a job down there. Well I'm off to bed for the night. Brian W. From: N1BZRich@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Actually the Lightning is NOT an E-LSA. It is an experimental (the same 51% rule that has always been in effect) aircraft that can be built to conform with the light sport rules and can thus be flown by a pilot operating as a sport pilot. As far as E-LSA, as I understand it, a company can not have an E-LSA until they have first got approval for an SLSA. In other words, after they have approval to sell SLSAs (turn key flying aircraft) they can then sell E-LSAs that are finished to some percent less than fully turn key. As Brian said, Pete will have the real words. Blue Skies, Buz _________________________________________________________________ Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos, recipes and more on your Live.com page. http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:38 PM PST US From: Charles Dewey Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Thanks all for the advice on the Grand Rapids vs Chelton vs. Dynon. I have already bought the Dynon and hope it works out ok. They claim it was used on Space Ship One. As far as I know it is just an artificial horizon and engine monitoring gauges all in one screen. My system only cost like 3500 if I remember correctly. I also have a 496 Garmin and hope to get XM weather through that. Why is the Grand Rapid system so expensive- it said 8900 starting price on the website? --- N1BZRi@aol.com wrote: > Charles, > I have not flown the newest Dynon EFIS you > describe, but it sounds like > the GRT screens with their split screen options - > all flight instruments, all > engine instruments, or all GPS map, or any > combination of the above on each > screen. However, I will soon get to fly with the > new Dynon as the EAA > chapter airplane we are building has the Dynon > (price consideration) and I will be > making the initial flight in the airplane. > At this point, I am sold on the Grand Rapids > based on flying it for > about 240 hours. I have a dual screen GRT panel. > It does it all (with the > built in GPS) to include a synthetic approach, > terrain awareness, wind, G-meter, > etc., etc. It will even do weather like the 396 > and 496 if you spend an > extra $1500 (less than buying a 396). I will > likely do that sometime after > Sun-N-Fun. GRT told me at Oshkosh if I would wait > until SNF the weather option > would also include XM radio. Wow, tunes while on a > long cross country. Right > now I have a CD player, but XM radio will be great. > I have it in my hangar. > I looked closely at the Dynon and chose the GRT for > several reasons. One > very important one, Pete and his guys are much more > familiar with GRT having > installed many of the units and they work closely > with the factory. Dynon > sent them several of their units to try, but they > seemed to be slower to update > - the display seemed to be jumpy in a fast pitch > change or fast bank - and > the units did not seem nearly as bright out in the > sun when I looked at them at > Oshkosh. The newer ones may be better, and as I > said above, I will be > flying behind one in the airplane the chapter built. > By the way, all the features > you mentioned for the Dynon sound just like the GRT > EFIS. Suggest you find > someone with each type and fly behind one of each. > Or look at both at > Sun-N-Fun and/or Oshkosh. > Just my $.02 - your mileage may vary. > Blue Skies, > Buz > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:44 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Lightning-List: Brian's move to Texas Brian, When you get to Houston look up Doctor Mike Duncan. He is a NASA flight surgeon and spends some of his time there and some of his time at Star City in Russia taking care of our astronauts. He is a long time friend and at one time had his Pitts and Bonanza in the hangar next to me with my Pitts and Bonanza here at Williamsburg. He has since sold this Pitts and replaced it with a Porsche and a sailboat. Still has the Bonanza. We just had breakfast together the other week and I think he could be talked into a Lightning - as least I had him interested. He also wants a Cub and a helicopter. Those doctors sure have a lot of money. Any way, get in touch with him to get the local "skinny" on aviation in that area and tell him you want a ride in his Bonanza. Tell him to sell the Porsche and get a real sports car - a Corvette. Blue Skies, Buz ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:26 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Charles, I think that the Dynon was used in the similuator for Spaceship one as a backup for the TONU, but think in the real aircraft a Garmin 396 was used for a backup. Take a look: Spaceship one cockpit: http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/gallery/flight_general/drop_int_vid_800 White Knight Cockpit: http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/gallery/flight_general/WK_cockpit_view_800 Simulator: http://www.airbum.com/pireps/SS1FrontCockpitWEB.jpg I don't think that the Dynon will be a bad choice for you. I'm just not as familiar with it. Let us know how it works out for you. I'll look for those cockpit photos in the next couple of days to post. Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ Get Hilary Duffs homepage with her photos, music, and more. http://celebrities.live.com ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:20 PM PST US From: Charles Dewey Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Moving on... Jim- Great news about you selling your plane. Congrats! I can answer one of your ?'s. I talked to Jim Nelson at Falcon Insurance and was told insurance was about 4K a year if I remember correctly, and I have only 70 hours. He said that because the Lightning is essentially an Esqual hybrid, it has a proven safety record and is therefore easily and inexpensively insurable. Charles --- pequeajim wrote: > > > Well fellows, I am happy to report that tonight I > received a committment from a buyer that they are > buying my Murphy Rebel! > > This leaves the door open for the purchase of a new > aircraft. I am 99% decided on the Lightning. I > still have not flown it, or sat in one of the newer > versions and want to do so before making a > commitment. Additionally, I will need to plan out > my finances accordingly to be sure I can coplete the > aircraft in a timely manner. > > If you guys don't mind, I have a few basic ownership > questions for you. > > What are the general insurance costs? (I have about > 170 hours flight time) > What is a realistic time to complete with builder > assist? > Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville, > or do the sales centers have enough experience with > this new design? I live in central PA and I was > impressed with Green Landings. > > What type of other questions would you want answered > before you buy? > > Thanks for your help. This list is refreshingly > open and informative. > > Jim Langley > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90003#90003 > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > Get your own web address. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:34 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Moving on... Thanks for the feedback Charles. I would expect a little less on the insurance since I have more time, but do not know what that figure might be. By the time the aircraft is flying, I would expect to be over 200 hours. BTW, it would be great to have it done for Oshkosh! On 1/23/07, Charles Dewey wrote: > > > Jim- Great news about you selling your plane. > Congrats! I can answer one of your ?'s. I talked to > Jim Nelson at Falcon Insurance and was told insurance > was about 4K a year if I remember correctly, and I > have only 70 hours. He said that because the Lightning > is essentially an Esqual hybrid, it has a proven > safety record and is therefore easily and > inexpensively insurable. Charles > --- pequeajim wrote: > > > > > > > Well fellows, I am happy to report that tonight I > > received a committment from a buyer that they are > > buying my Murphy Rebel! > > > > This leaves the door open for the purchase of a new > > aircraft. I am 99% decided on the Lightning. I > > still have not flown it, or sat in one of the newer > > versions and want to do so before making a > > commitment. Additionally, I will need to plan out > > my finances accordingly to be sure I can coplete the > > aircraft in a timely manner. > > > > If you guys don't mind, I have a few basic ownership > > questions for you. > > > > What are the general insurance costs? (I have about > > 170 hours flight time) > > What is a realistic time to complete with builder > > assist? > > Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville, > > or do the sales centers have enough experience with > > this new design? I live in central PA and I was > > impressed with Green Landings. > > > > What type of other questions would you want answered > > before you buy? > > > > Thanks for your help. This list is refreshingly > > open and informative. > > > > Jim Langley > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90003#90003 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > > > > Web Forums! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get your own web address. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:42 PM PST US From: Charles Dewey Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Brian, Thanks for those awesome photos of Space Ship One interior. I just read on the Dynon website that they are now doubling the power of the brightness of the FlightDek for an extra 200 bucks. Too late for me unfortunately- wish I knew ahead of time- I dont want a display that can't be seen in the sun or at night!!!! I feel ripped off!!! --- Brian Whittingham wrote: > Whittingham" > > Charles, > I think that the Dynon was used in the similuator > for Spaceship one as a > backup for the TONU, but think in the real aircraft > a Garmin 396 was used > for a backup. Take a look: > > Spaceship one cockpit: > http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/gallery/flight_general/drop_int_vid_800 > White Knight Cockpit: > http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/gallery/flight_general/WK_cockpit_view_800 > Simulator: > http://www.airbum.com/pireps/SS1FrontCockpitWEB.jpg > > I don't think that the Dynon will be a bad choice > for you. I'm just not as > familiar with it. Let us know how it works out for > you. I'll look for > those cockpit photos in the next couple of days to > post. Brian W. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get Hilary Duffs homepage with her photos, music, > and more. > http://celebrities.live.com > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:32 PM PST US From: Fry Subject: Lightning-List: Enigma My first post to this list. In following the discussion about glass cockpits, has any member researched The ENIGMA? If you take a look at http://www.lightflying.com.au/ you will learn some more. I would value comment on this piece of equipment as will soon be receiving my Lightning kit from the States. I am in Victoria, Australia, near Horsham. Thanks Bill ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:29 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Moving on... Jim, Congratulations on the sale of your Rebel. Deciding on your new airplane will be an exciting time. I am sure many on this list will be happy to "help" with your decision. Now to take a "stab" at your questions. What are the general insurance costs? (I have about 170 hours flight time) Flying time is only part of the equation. Do you want in flight hull coverage as well as liability? How much hull coverage do you want? Will the airplane be hangared? I have 31BZ hangared and insured for $85K and a million liability. I have somewhere between 6 and 7 thousand hours and the cost is about $1700 a year. What is a realistic time to complete with builder assist? A lot depends on your schedule, but plan on about three weeks of your time in Shelbyville (don't know about Green "Acres") plus about that much time for their painter also - so plan on at least 6 weeks to get to the FAA inspection. Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville, or do the sales centers have enough experience with this new design? I live in central PA and I was impressed with Green Landings. You will find great people in both places. I have not seen the Green "Acres" facilities, but I know the guys and they have one flying and at least one building. Talk to both places about schedules, paint shops, avionics experience, etc., and what the local FAA or DAR is like. How quickly will the local FAA/DAR respond to your inspection request? Do both places charge the same amount for the builders assist? Will you be flying your time off at their place? If so, what is the local flying test area like as far as terrain and emergency landing places? What about motel accommodations / cost in each area. If it matters, ask what there is to do in the local on weekends or when you are not busy building. What type of other questions would you want answered before you buy? What does your secretary look like? Just kidding. I think we covered the main concerns. Others will likely have good suggestions as well. Jim, it will probably be a while until they have a demonstrator flying to take prospective Lightning buyers for a flight. I would be happy to take you for a flight in 31BZ. I have taken other Lightning buyers for demo flights. We can do that in Virginia or the next time I am in SYI - probably early February. My Esqual is modified with Lightning parts and is pretty close to the prototype in performance. But I will admit the Lightning flys better - slightly faster, slightly more aileron and rudder authority, and more stable on final. Blue Skies, Buz ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:36 PM PST US From: "MR PAUL MITCHELL" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR Brian, There is an upgrade for the screen. Paul Mitchell in UK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Dewey" Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 5:08 AM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Equipping a Lightning for IFR > > Brian, Thanks for those awesome photos of Space Ship > One interior. I just read on the Dynon website that > they are now doubling the power of the brightness of > the FlightDek for an extra 200 bucks. Too late for me > unfortunately- wish I knew ahead of time- I dont want > a display that can't be seen in the sun or at > night!!!! I feel ripped off!!! > --- Brian Whittingham wrote: > >> Whittingham" >> >> Charles, >> I think that the Dynon was used in the similuator >> for Spaceship one as a >> backup for the TONU, but think in the real aircraft >> a Garmin 396 was used >> for a backup. Take a look: >> >> Spaceship one cockpit: >> > http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/gallery/flight_general/drop_int_vid_800 >> White Knight Cockpit: >> > http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/gallery/flight_general/WK_cockpit_view_800 >> Simulator: >> http://www.airbum.com/pireps/SS1FrontCockpitWEB.jpg >> >> I don't think that the Dynon will be a bad choice >> for you. I'm just not as >> familiar with it. Let us know how it works out for >> you. I'll look for >> those cockpit photos in the next couple of days to >> post. Brian W. >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> Get Hilary Duff's homepage with her photos, music, >> and more. >> http://celebrities.live.com >> >> >> >> browse >> Subscriptions page, >> FAQ, >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List >> >> Web Forums! >> >> >> >> >> > > > Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. > Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com > > > -- > 11:04 AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.