Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: Flying off the hours (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
2. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: Flying off the hours (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
3. 07:54 AM - Re: Flying off the hours (Pete)
4. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: Flying off the hours (Pete)
5. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: Flying off the hours (Brian Whittingham)
6. 10:54 AM - Re: Re: Flying off the hours (Jim Langley)
7. 10:57 AM - Re: Flying off the hours (Jim Langley)
8. 02:01 PM - Re: Flying off the hours (N1BZRich@aol.com)
9. 02:27 PM - Re: Flying off the hours (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
10. 03:25 PM - Re: Flying off the hours (Jim Langley)
11. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: Flying off the hours (Peter and Jan Disher)
12. 06:56 PM - one more panel pic (Brian Whittingham)
13. 08:21 PM - Re: one more panel pic (Brian Whittingham)
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| Subject: | Re: Flying off the hours |
Hi Peter,
What I am getting at is that many builders kind of take a short cut when
testing their aircraft. Their main goal seems to be to just fly off the
hours without really testing their aircraft's complete operating envelop to
determine aircraft handling characteristics, specific performance parameters,
and
safety margins for their specific airplane. Luckily, most get away with
this because the original designer went through extensive testing, but bottom
line is that all homebuilt aircraft are different. They are not "cookie
cutter" exact replicas of the originals as would be a "store bought" airplane.
When they take this short cut approach they really never know exactly what their
aircraft will do as to specific performance parameters or how their aircraft
might react at the edges of the flying envelop. Actual data for such things
as their aircraft's best climb speed, best glide speed, cruise speeds at
various altitudes and rpm (and fuel flows at these parameters) are not really
known. They just have "numbers" that the aircraft designer provided based on
the prototype which may or may not be close for their specific aircraft
example. Maybe better than a complete "WAG", but not specific at all.
Guidelines for a complete test profile are found in our FAA's Advisory
Circular -AC 90-89 - which is titled, Amateur-Built Aircraft Test Flying
Handbook. Also, additional information is available through the EAA and their
Flight Advisor program. The Australia FAA equivalent agency may also have a
similar handout. I am pretty sure that FAA AC 90-89 is available on line at:
www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/ac90-89a.pdf
However, if you get in touch with EAA they can provide a copy of this
Advisory Circular and also put you in touch with one of their Flight Advisors.
Over the years since the Flight Advisor program was started by EAA, it has been
very successful at reducing the accident rate on "first flights" and during
the test flight hours. I have been a Flight Advisor for various types of
homebuilts since the program started and I enjoy working with builders to help
prepare them for their initial flight and test program. Your EAA equivalent in
Australia may have a similar program, but if not, get in touch with EAA.
I think Steve has already sent you a file with the outline of the phased
test program that I developed and used when testing my Esqual LS (Lightning
Stuff - mods). I have shared it with anyone interested - with the thought
that it is one way to do it and that it worked for me. It is based on info
from both the Advisory Circular and the Flight Advisor program. In my overall
outline the initial first flights are pretty specific as to test flight
profiles, with the later test phases just outlining the types of objectives to
look
for during those phases and flights. You develop specific flight profiles
for each of the later flights based on previously flown flights and resulting
information gained on those test flights. All of the data you gain during
the test program is used to develop and write your aircraft's pilot's operating
flight manual. Again, the aircraft designer will provide you with a draft
flight manual, but it is up to you to "fill in the blanks" such as specific
performance data, etc.
Hope this helps.
Blue Skies,
Buz Rich
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| Subject: | Re: Flying off the hours |
Let me add that the prototype Lightning's flight manual is outstanding -
with inputs from Pete and Nick, I wrote it, so it must be good. :-) It is a very
detailed document divided into nine sections - General Information,
Limitations, Emergency Procedures, Normal Procedures, Performance Data, Weight
and
Balance, Aircraft Systems, Care, Maintenance and handling, and Supplements
(incase the designer or builder has future changes to the basic manual). I used
USAF fighter flight manuals as the model since that is what I am use to.
Each section in the Lightning manual has much more specific data that any other
experimental or homebuilt flight manual than I have seen, especially section
five. When you update it with the data that you glean from your flight
testing you will have a very accurate and complete flight manual. Something you
can be proud to show to people who are already "ogling" your homebuilt
creation.
Buz
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| Subject: | Flying off the hours |
Example: John Davis flew back to Crossville, Tn from Shelbyville.
Crossville is 70 miles from Shelbyville. John requested that his 50 NM
radius test area be centered on McMinnville - 35 miles from Shelbyville and
35 from Crossville. All flights between the two airports are within John's
area.
We have had customers who have found it easy to get a new area assigned to
complete their testing and have had customers who have found it difficult
(Phoenix area) to get a new area assigned.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Whittingham
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Flying off the hours
<dashvii@hotmail.com>
I don't know if you can go more than 50 miles, but John Davis took his home
with about 5 hours I think. Now his is really close by, so it may be within
30 miles. Good question though, that I like to know. Brian W.
_________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Flying off the hours |
Let me just take Buz' statement just a bit further - if you have a
Continental or Lycoming or any other FAR Part 23 certified engine AND a
certified prop - then it is 25 hours. It is the engine / prop combo that
must carry the certification. If one of the items is not certified then it
is 40 hors.
Pete
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N1BZRich@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flying off the hours
In a message dated 1/27/2007 10:46:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pequeajim@gmail.com writes:
DOes the lightning require 50 hours or 25?
Boy, Jim, you really must be looking at some old regulations. Based on
current regulations, the Lightning will require 40 hours because the engine
is not certified (part 23???) in the US. If you had a Lycoming or
Continental on board (US engines) it would be 25 hours. In the old days
(when I built my Pitts) it was 50 hours no matter what.
You will be surprised how quickly the time goes by IF you really do a full
test profile for your airplane. Many do not.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Flying off the hours |
I had designed a flight test profile completely independent of Buz's
profile. I too based it off of the advisory circular put out by the FAA.
Buz shared his profile with me and it looks pretty similar to what I had
come up with. It's a good thing to read if you plan on flying the time off
yourself.
I'd second that the Lightning manual is a very thorough and complete manual.
I haven't flown a whole lot of other types of experimental aircraft but
have seen many "pilot information manuals" which left a lot to be desired.
The quality of Buz's work I'd have to compare to the checklists that I used
at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, the rewrite of the Cirrus manual
done by University of North Dakota Aerospace program (now used in the Cirrus
standardization training), or some of military checklist that I have seen.
Very good job and once you have filled in all the exact numbers for your
exact plane then it can be used just like any other POH. Brian W.
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| Subject: | Re: Flying off the hours |
Thanks guys. I think that clarifies things for me.
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Flying off the hours
Let me just take Buz' statement just a bit further - if you have a
Continental or Lycoming or any other FAR Part 23 certified engine AND a
certified prop - then it is 25 hours. It is the engine / prop combo that
must carry the certification. If one of the items is not certified then it
is 40 hors.
Pete
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N1BZRich@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flying off the hours
In a message dated 1/27/2007 10:46:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pequeajim@gmail.com writes:
DOes the lightning require 50 hours or 25?
Boy, Jim, you really must be looking at some old regulations. Based on
current regulations, the Lightning will require 40 hours because the engine
is not certified (part 23???) in the US. If you had a Lycoming or
Continental on board (US engines) it would be 25 hours. In the old days
(when I built my Pitts) it was 50 hours no matter what.
You will be surprised how quickly the time goes by IF you really do a full
test profile for your airplane. Many do not.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Message 7
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| Subject: | Flying off the hours |
So, from Green Landings, I could request that the center of my test area be,
say Gettysburg, (about 40nm from GL and 40+nm from Lancaster). That would
make it work.
I want to be able to get back and forth to GL while flying off the hours,
even if I have to go by way of Gettysburg. This will allow me to use their
expertise when fine tuning my aircraft.
Jim!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Flying off the hours
Example: John Davis flew back to Crossville, Tn from Shelbyville.
Crossville is 70 miles from Shelbyville. John requested that his 50 NM
radius test area be centered on McMinnville - 35 miles from Shelbyville and
35 from Crossville. All flights between the two airports are within John's
area.
We have had customers who have found it easy to get a new area assigned to
complete their testing and have had customers who have found it difficult
(Phoenix area) to get a new area assigned.
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Whittingham
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Flying off the hours
<dashvii@hotmail.com>
I don't know if you can go more than 50 miles, but John Davis took his home
with about 5 hours I think. Now his is really close by, so it may be within
30 miles. Good question though, that I like to know. Brian W.
_________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: Flying off the hours |
In a message dated 1/28/2007 1:59:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pequeajim@gmail.com writes:
So, from Green Landings, I could request that the center of my test area be,
say Gettysburg, (about 40nm from GL and 40+nm from Lancaster). That would
make it work.
Jim,
It all depends. Will the FAA inspector or DAR in that area approve that
type of operation? Some builders in other parts of the US even have a hard
time getting a 50 mile radius approved for their designated test area - once
again it depends on the local FAA / DAR that you are working with. Just like
different DARs charge different amounts to do the inspection, some have
different thoughts on what they are comfortable approving or not. So, it all
depends. Check with the Doug and the guys in WV to see how their FAA and/or DAR
think about approving the type of operation you are talking about.
Buz
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Flying off the hours |
Jim,
We have two different DAR's that we work with, one is just cheaper than the
other!!!
One favors using a more uninhabited center point (Cumberland, MD) and the
other (more expensive) will be more liberal. But I dont think it would be a
problem with either. There will be some strong lectures about avoiding Camp
David but that should be about it.
Ryan would be the one to arrange that.
I dont know what your pilot skills are like, but as long as you will pay for
the gas, Ryan will help get the first 5 hours or so on it. We like to fly in
the morning before work, take a flying break a bit later, then fly if
someone else is flying and then once more before sundown. If there is some rush,
all three of us can fly off the time in short order. We had few issues of
significance with our first one; I would not expect any problems with yours.
However, any homebuilt requires significant "tweaking" during the first 5-
10 hours. Some "tweaks" can be quite frustrating to tackle on your own. By
the time you get 40 hours, only the "tweaks" you can live with remain.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 1/28/2007 5:04:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
N1BZRich@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 1/28/2007 1:59:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pequeajim@gmail.com writes:
So, from Green Landings, I could request that the center of my test area be,
say Gettysburg, (about 40nm from GL and 40+nm from Lancaster). That would
make it work.
Jim,
It all depends. Will the FAA inspector or DAR in that area approve that
type of operation? Some builders in other parts of the US even have a hard
time getting a 50 mile radius approved for their designated test area - once
again it depends on the local FAA / DAR that you are working with. Just like
different DARs charge different amounts to do the inspection, some have
different thoughts on what they are comfortable approving or not. So, it all
depends. Check with the Doug and the guys in WV to see how their FAA and/or DAR
think about approving the type of operation you are talking about.
Buz
Message 10
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| Subject: | Flying off the hours |
Thanks Doug:
If this all goes down, what I thought I would do is have Ryan do the initial
flights to verify the construction and setup of the aircraft against the
previous ones that you guys have put together, and then we follow a
methodical test plan for flying off the next chunk of hours to fine tune the
setup and determine the performance to fill in the flight manual. I would
think that we would determine the best way to handle this at the time. I
can stay down there and burn some of the hours with this and of course
transitioning myself to a point where I feel comfortable with the aircraft.
The key point is being down there in the beginning to utilize your
expertise. Right now, I am a low time pilot with over 120 hours, but am
building this time each week. Navigation around Camp David is not a
problem. After some agreed upon amount of hours on the aircraft, I would
like to get it up to KLNS to fly off the remaining time locally. Lancaster,
(KLNS), is in the same town as where I work, so it is easy to get some time
in every day.
Jim!
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Kayberg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Flying off the hours
Jim,
We have two different DAR's that we work with, one is just cheaper than the
other!!!
One favors using a more uninhabited center point (Cumberland, MD) and the
other (more expensive) will be more liberal. But I dont think it would be a
problem with either. There will be some strong lectures about avoiding Camp
David but that should be about it.
Ryan would be the one to arrange that.
I dont know what your pilot skills are like, but as long as you will pay for
the gas, Ryan will help get the first 5 hours or so on it. We like to fly in
the morning before work, take a flying break a bit later, then fly if
someone else is flying and then once more before sundown. If there is some
rush, all three of us can fly off the time in short order. We had few
issues of significance with our first one; I would not expect any problems
with yours.
However, any homebuilt requires significant "tweaking" during the first 5-
10 hours. Some "tweaks" can be quite frustrating to tackle on your own. By
the time you get 40 hours, only the "tweaks" you can live with remain.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 1/28/2007 5:04:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
N1BZRich@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 1/28/2007 1:59:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pequeajim@gmail.com writes:
So, from Green Landings, I could request that the center of my test area be,
say Gettysburg, (about 40nm from GL and 40+nm from Lancaster). That would
make it work.
Jim,
It all depends. Will the FAA inspector or DAR in that area approve that
type of operation? Some builders in other parts of the US even have a hard
time getting a 50 mile radius approved for their designated test area - once
again it depends on the local FAA / DAR that you are working with. Just
like different DARs charge different amounts to do the inspection, some have
different thoughts on what they are comfortable approving or not. So, it
all depends. Check with the Doug and the guys in WV to see how their FAA
and/or DAR think about approving the type of operation you are talking
about.
Buz
BLOCKQUOTE>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Flying off the hours |
Hi Buz,
Many Thanks for all your imfo. It's been greatly appreciated, I can
certainly understand your approach in what your saying.
Yes, got your info. from steve.
Thanks again,
Pete Disher Y SYD
----- Original Message -----
From: N1BZRich@aol.com
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flying off the hours
Hi Peter,
What I am getting at is that many builders kind of take a short
cut when testing their aircraft. Their main goal seems to be to just
fly off the hours without really testing their aircraft's complete
operating envelop to determine aircraft handling characteristics,
specific performance parameters, and safety margins for their specific
airplane. Luckily, most get away with this because the original
designer went through extensive testing, but bottom line is that all
homebuilt aircraft are different. They are not "cookie cutter" exact
replicas of the originals as would be a "store bought" airplane. When
they take this short cut approach they really never know exactly what
their aircraft will do as to specific performance parameters or how
their aircraft might react at the edges of the flying envelop. Actual
data for such things as their aircraft's best climb speed, best glide
speed, cruise speeds at various altitudes and rpm (and fuel flows at
these parameters) are not really known. They just have "numbers" that
the aircraft designer provided based on the prototype which may or may
not be close for their specific aircraft example. Maybe better than a
complete "WAG", but not specific at all.
Guidelines for a complete test profile are found in our FAA's
Advisory Circular -AC 90-89 - which is titled, Amateur-Built Aircraft
Test Flying Handbook. Also, additional information is available through
the EAA and their Flight Advisor program. The Australia FAA equivalent
agency may also have a similar handout. I am pretty sure that FAA AC
90-89 is available on line at:
www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/ac90-89a.pdf
However, if you get in touch with EAA they can provide a copy of this
Advisory Circular and also put you in touch with one of their Flight
Advisors. Over the years since the Flight Advisor program was started
by EAA, it has been very successful at reducing the accident rate on
"first flights" and during the test flight hours. I have been a Flight
Advisor for various types of homebuilts since the program started and I
enjoy working with builders to help prepare them for their initial
flight and test program. Your EAA equivalent in Australia may have a
similar program, but if not, get in touch with EAA.
I think Steve has already sent you a file with the outline of the
phased test program that I developed and used when testing my Esqual LS
(Lightning Stuff - mods). I have shared it with anyone interested -
with the thought that it is one way to do it and that it worked for me.
It is based on info from both the Advisory Circular and the Flight
Advisor program. In my overall outline the initial first flights are
pretty specific as to test flight profiles, with the later test phases
just outlining the types of objectives to look for during those phases
and flights. You develop specific flight profiles for each of the later
flights based on previously flown flights and resulting information
gained on those test flights. All of the data you gain during the test
program is used to develop and write your aircraft's pilot's operating
flight manual. Again, the aircraft designer will provide you with a
draft flight manual, but it is up to you to "fill in the blanks" such as
specific performance data, etc.
Hope this helps.
Blue Skies,
Buz Rich
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
27/01/2007 5:02 PM
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| Subject: | one more panel pic |
Everybody,
Found one more panel pic, of the prototype with the Dynon in place. It
has been replaced with the altimeter. Brian W.
_________________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | one more panel pic |
Okay, a few more pics here:
DSC0783 - This was the radical wing shape that I mentioned. It is very much
a teardrop shape. It is a relatively fat wing, but with a high laminar flow
it is also a fast wing, so good tradeoff in takeoff distance, stall speeds,
and top speeds.
DSC789 - This was Greg Hobbs panel. It says 121mph indicated, 167mph ground
speed, and 143mph TAS. This is at about 9,500 feet MSL and at 2950 RPM. We
did have a few little issues that were unresolved with the plane when we
flew it out. Nothing major, but had to maintain some elevator and aileron
all the time. I think he got it fixed when he got out there. he also
didn't have it as sleek aerodynamically as the prototype and I'd say the
production experimental models are sleeker than either
DSC797- Just imagine yourself in one of these babies, flying at 10k feet
170mph or so in cruise, clear blue skies and beautiful mountains of Arizona.
DSC798 - another mountain shot, those were 14k off to the left of the pic if
memory serves.
DSC960 - just thought this was a good shot of the Lightning fresh out of
paint. In the background right you can see the hybrid, and in the way back
you can see 17EF which is Earl's plane before it flew.
Enjoy, Brian W.
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