---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/06/07: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:33 AM - New Lightnings, Pete's response (EAFerguson@aol.com) 2. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: Qualith of build and durability? (pdukor1@tampabay.rr.com) 3. 11:44 AM - Re: information on the Lightning (IFLYSMODEL@aol.com) 4. 01:16 PM - Re: information on the Lightning (Pete) 5. 03:48 PM - Re: information on the Lightning (IFLYSMODEL@AOL.COM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:29 AM PST US From: EAFerguson@aol.com Subject: Lightning-List: New Lightnings, Pete's response Greetings all from N17EF in Atlanta! Congrats to Rick and Good work to Linda and Joe. Glad to hear that Duane's Lightning is ready for inspection also. With luck (and effort) we could have a couple more birds at S & F. Pete:Great response. I second the motion to post it on the offending website. We need to shut this issue down at the source. If anyone interested in the Lightning is in or near Atlanta, please let me know and we'll arrange a visitation. I plan to be in Shelbyville this Thursday now that my baggage deck part has arrived. Earl Ferguson ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:45 AM PST US From: pdukor1@tampabay.rr.com Subject: Re: RE: Lightning-List: Qualith of build and durability? Bravo! Looking forward to S & F Paul Sarasota, Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Qualith of build and durability? > Hi All, > > > > The internet is a great tool but sometimes there are some posts > that really > make me shake my head. The quote from the moderator of the > www.homebuiltairplanes.com > web site is > another one of those. It always amazes me when someone sets > himself up as a > self proclaimed "expert" and then makes statements based on > assumptionsabout photos posted on another site. > > > > Sloppy? He first talks about wrinkles in the rudder skin. If he > even had a > cursory knowledge of composites he would know that the lines he > sees are not > wrinkles but the relief lines in the foam core that allow resin > infusion.He would also know that a light scuffing with sand paper > would make them > disappear. The material was not bunched up. Nor was it separated > from the > tool. He makes assumptions without enough knowledge to make valid > assumptions. > > > > Second, he talks about the spar. He says that the combination of > glass and > carbon is "not recommended". Well, he should tell that to Cirrus, > Pulsar,Boeing, and others. Maybe they will change their wing > construction to > comply with this "expert". If he tells Cessna right away maybe > they can > change their wing before the first of the "New Generation" > aircraft are > sold! He states that the carbon ends at the root rib when in > actuality it > extends on out the spar. You just can't see it in the photo. > Again, an > "expert" making assumptions about items he can't even see in a photo. > > > > He questions the spar strength? On what basis? Maybe his vast > knowledge of > composites? We tested that wing to 11 G positive. Then we > tested it to 11 > G negative. Then in the high speed stall configuration. Photos > of the test > are on the web site. 95% of all aircraft wings in use today would > not hold > up to our test including Cessna, Piper, Mooney, Vans RV Series, Sonex, > Zenith, and most others. > > > > Finally, he doubts our performance numbers and thinks they are > from an > "analysis program" and he would prefer to see "something that's a > bit more > accurate and flight proven". Again he's assuming we are not being > forthright with our performance numbers. Well, those who know us > and build > with us know that we have not used "analysis programs" in the > development of > this aircraft. We built it the way we thought it should be built > based on > our experience over the last nearly 20 years building dozens of > homebuiltaircraft. We put our own butt on the line and went out > and flew it and > reported the performance we saw. We prove it again every week by > flyingbeside Vans RV-6 & 7's and finding that we are faster when > flown in the > economy cruise mode. The RV's will go faster if the pilots push the > throttle to the 13 gph fuel use rate but at their 9.5 gph rate we > are faster > using our 5.5 gph. We even got to report first hand our glide > ratio when > Nick hit a turkey buzzard on the spinner and the prop shattered 7 > miles away > from the airport at 2500 ft above the ground and he had enough > glide to get > back to the airport and fly a std pattern! Maybe we'll call that > the Turkey > Buzzard analysis program reporting a real life 17:1 glide. > > > > To sum it up, when we listen to the comments of builders who have > completedcomposite aircraft and really know what they are talking > about, we are > encouraged by what they say about our kit. We will get better yet > as this > year goes by and you can rest assured that we won't be reporting > performancewe don't see. > > > > Part of my reason for responding here is to illustrate that you > can't always > believe the info posted on the net. Too often list members make > observations and offer opinions and advise that is well out of > their area of > expertise. Maybe they did sleep at a Holiday Inn but still.. > Call me old > fashioned but I think authors should remember that the freedom > that allows > postings on some internet list should be accompanied by the > responsibilityto have some idea of what they are talking about. > > > > Pete > > > > > > _____ > > From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > George SMith > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:47 AM > To: lightning-list@matronics.com > Subject: Lightning-List: Qualith of build and durability? > > > > I am interesting in possibly purchasing the Lightning and have > been surfing > around the forums for information on the aircraft. Since it is so > new, it > is difficult to find many people who have experience with it. My > concern is > that I am need to research this well as spending this much money > on a hobby > is not well spent if I am not happy with my purchase 2-3 years > down the > line. > > > > In reading one particular forum, I came across a couple of guys asking > questions about the Lightning and one gentleman's thoughts on the > aircraftafter visiting the Arion Aircraft web site. > > > > An interesting new airplane. I haven't heard of this one but they > do show > quite a bit at their web site to alloow me to make at least a few > cursoryobservations. First, it looks like a slightly modified copy > of a Lancair 235 > or 320. There are minor differences and it does look to be using a > differentwing section (although I'd have to confirm that), but > overall it seems > similar enough to at least raise an eyebrow. > > They show quite a few pictures of the parts and the various sub > assembliesso you can get at least an idea of what's involved in > putting this together. > It looks to be a fairly standard structure although one or two > areas would > need a bit of a closer examination in order to see the details. > > But looking through all the presentation materials all I could > think of is: > Sloppy. If these pictures are truly representative of their parts > and their > work I'd probably recommend a deeper investigation before > committing. The > first picture I randomly selected was that of the rudder assembly. > Even a > cursory glance shows that the molded part came out of the tool > with surface > wrinkles - almost as if the material bunched up and separated from > the tool. > Also, looking at the sides of the fuselage, that too looks to be > uneven. The > surface seems to be poorly shaped (look at the light reflections) with > surface discontinuities that make it look like the surface of an > orange. It > is possible that this is misleading and maybe it has something to > do with > the tool prep or the primer coat, but quite frankly I can't think of > anything that would cause this except poor tooling or maybe poor > qualitycontrol during fabrication. > > Another area that might cause some concern is the wing spar - > possibly the > strength, but more so the manufacturing itself. First of all, it > is a > combination of graphite and glass. While feasible, generally this > type of > structure is not recommended unless one really understands how the > materialsbehave together. The significant difference in stiffness > between the glass > and the graphite makes each component see the loads a bit > differently, with > more of the load going to the stiffer component of the structure. > If this is > not understood in the design of the part, this could lead to eventual > structural problems. > > >From the layup standpoint, if you look at the root of the spar, > the graphite > ends petty much at the root rib. Why? And then the way it is laid > up, it is > very sloppy, with untrimmed fibers running every which way. Not > really a > good presentation and certainly not something that most companies > would want > to use as a demonstration of their skills. > > Regarding their performance numbers, they look to be something > that they > took from some analysis program without really verifying what they > werepresenting - I'd prefer to see something that's a bit more > accurate and > flight proven. I too would be a bit skeptical of several of the > claims,although it is a clean airplane and some of the numbers may > not be too far > off. The glide ratio? Yea, I'd question that too. Even without the > prop it > sounds way too good to be true. > > In short, if you're interested in this airplane I'd suggest that > you hire > someone in your area that really knows small airplane design and > engineeringissues and have him or her go through their factory > with you. > > This kind of spooked me, (mainly because I do not understand > composites); so > I did a little research on some of the ponts regarding the spar > and hear > similar opinions. I would be interested in hearing why the wing > spar is > constructed in this manner? Why is carbon fiber just through the > interiorof the wing and not out to the end of the spar. Is there > a design > consideration in this? The points about the finish are not really > that big > a concern to me. While true that the finish is not the same as > that of say > a CT, Dynamic, or Pulsar, I believe this because their products are > delivered in a more complete state, (those companies having the > opportunityto do more finishing on their end), I don't mind a > little body work now and > then. > > > > Also, from reading this list, I see that the lightning seems to be a > redesign of the Esqual? Did the Esqual use the same type of wing spar > composition as the Lightning. If so, this would lend some > validation to the > fact that there must be several of those flying and no real > problems to > speak of? > > > > Please understand that I am not complaining about the build > quality or > design, so do not take offense. I am just searching for some > answers to > questions that have been raised about the design and finish before > I make > the decision to put down my money. > > > > Thanks for any help that you can provide. > > > > Georgie > > > > _____ > > Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your > question on Yahoo! > NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx> Answers. > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:42 AM PST US From: IFLYSMODEL@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: information on the Lightning Hey guys & gals: The more I look at this Lightning the more I like it. (If I could just sell my Bonanza) I have not seen or heard anything about getting things delivered late. (contact me off list if you like) But I see lots of airplanes in the construction stage in Shelbyville. Is their estimate realistic about getting ready for paint in one week? Is there any problem getting everything? Thanks. Lynn Nelsen ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:11 PM PST US From: "Pete" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: information on the Lightning Lynn, The last 8 or so were ready for the paint shop after one week of construction by the owner and our crew of Mark & Mike. Finishing after paint will take the better of two weeks, though. See the builder assist description at http://www.arionaircraft.com/Support.html . Pete _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of IFLYSMODEL@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: information on the Lightning Hey guys & gals: The more I look at this Lightning the more I like it. (If I could just sell my Bonanza) I have not seen or heard anything about getting things delivered late. (contact me off list if you like) But I see lots of airplanes in the construction stage in Shelbyville. Is their estimate realistic about getting ready for paint in one week? Is there any problem getting everything? Thanks. Lynn Nelsen ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:51 PM PST US From: IFLYSMODEL@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: information on the Lightning Thank you Pete. 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