---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/06/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:35 AM - Re: Arion Lightning makes the news. (Colin J. Kennedy) 2. 09:21 AM - Re: Arion Lightning makes the news. (Brian Whittingham) 3. 10:19 AM - Re: Winglets or modified winglets? (N1BZRich@aol.com) 4. 11:07 AM - Re: Arion Lightning makes the news. (Colin J. Kennedy) 5. 03:31 PM - Re: Winglets or modified winglets? (Jim Langley) 6. 03:36 PM - Lightning Mods (Johnny Thompson) 7. 06:04 PM - Re: Winglets or modified winglets? (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 8. 07:04 PM - Re: Winglets or modified winglets? (Jim Langley) 9. 08:07 PM - Re: Winglets or modified winglets? (Brian Whittingham) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:32 AM PST US From: "Colin J. Kennedy" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. Nicest seats I've seen yet Johnny. Can they be tipped forward to give better access to the baggage compartment? Can you share with us how they were designed/constructed? The side panel looks like aluminum - is that part of the kit or something you decided to do yourself and why? Looks like you have extra air vents in the panel too? Colin K. OK -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Thompson Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 8:42 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. Lightning 8WN, Serial number 26. I have started my upholstery. I added a lot of weight between building seatbacks and all the avionics but what the heck, this is what I want. I have started changing the system to latch the canopy down, built 1-1/8" control sticks to fit my old Cobra grips. It will be full IFR, auto pilot GRT dual, and get this, sport pilot. I am at the point of no more medicals. Ready to install the canopy but I will modify the canopy frame first to fit the glass better. Any suggestions where to put the refrigerator? Johnny ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:39 AM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. Colin, I'm not sure about this specific installation, but even if the seats come forward it's no better access to the baggage as there is a structural bulkhead behind the seats. Baggage access is easy over that though. Brian W. From: "Colin J. Kennedy" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. Nicest seats I've seen yet Johnny. Can they be tipped forward to give better access to the baggage compartment? Can you share with us how they were designed/constructed? The side panel looks like aluminum - is that part of the kit or something you decided to do yourself and why? Looks like you have extra air vents in the panel too? Colin K. OK -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Thompson Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 8:42 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. Lightning 8WN, Serial number 26. I have started my upholstery. I added a lot of weight between building seatbacks and all the avionics but what the heck, this is what I want. I have started changing the system to latch the canopy down, built 1-1/8" control sticks to fit my old Cobra grips. It will be full IFR, auto pilot GRT dual, and get this, sport pilot. I am at the point of no more medicals. Ready to install the canopy but I will modify the canopy frame first to fit the glass better. Any suggestions where to put the refrigerator? Johnny << seats2.jpg >> << seats1.jpg >> _________________________________________________________________ Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN In Concert today. http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:31 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Winglets or modified winglets? In a message dated 5/6/2007 12:01:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pequeajim@gmail.com writes: Thanks for the info Buz. What do the winglets do for the top end? Jim, The answer to your question is "It all depends". Winglets seem to be a part of aviation design that is part science and part magic - kind of like finding the right propeller for a specific airplane (more on that later in another e-mail). The idea behind winglets is that, properly designed, they reduce the wingtip vortices, and thus decreases overall drag. What really happens is that the winglet is designed to produce a vortex that is opposite to the wing vortex and thus cancel out each other (therefore less overall drag). There is also a somewhat effective span increase when using winglets - so you in effect you have a longer wing without the increased drag penalty. Therefore, you can sometimes get two drag reductions by using winglets. Burt Rutan has used them effectively on several of his designs as well as some of the more modern "super gliders" use them to great effect. The real key to any improvement totally depends on how they are designed. The obvious questions are: how large to make them and at what angle should they be installed? Throw in the question of the specific airfoil shape on the winglet and you start to see just how much science and magic is involved. I am sure that most winglets you are starting to see on experimental aircraft are just there to make the design look more modern with probably not much overall effect of drag reduction. In fact, if they are not done correctly they can have an adverse effect on the yaw stability of an airplane - not so much making it more yaw unstable, but instead causing the opposite effect where it takes much more rudder to yaw the airplane. Bottom line, I really have no clue as to how much winglets might do for top end on a Lightning. They will probably help, but until installed and flight tested how do we really know. The idea behind the tip extensions and possible winglets on the Lightning will be to add wing area ant thus lower stall speed for those who want to have it meet light sport requirements. Any increase in top end will also result in more efficient cruise numbers as far a fuel burn. Should be a win-win situation. You can bet that the Lightning team will do it right if they do it at all. I am that confident in the way they do things. Blue Skies, Buz ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:24 AM PST US From: "Colin J. Kennedy" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. Thanks Brian. I just noticed that these seats had a high headrest and thought that tipping them forward would make the aperture above the bulkhead more accessible. Colin K. OK -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Whittingham Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. --> Colin, I'm not sure about this specific installation, but even if the seats come forward it's no better access to the baggage as there is a structural bulkhead behind the seats. Baggage access is easy over that though. Brian W. From: "Colin J. Kennedy" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. Nicest seats I've seen yet Johnny. Can they be tipped forward to give better access to the baggage compartment? Can you share with us how they were designed/constructed? The side panel looks like aluminum - is that part of the kit or something you decided to do yourself and why? Looks like you have extra air vents in the panel too? Colin K. OK -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Thompson Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 8:42 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. Lightning 8WN, Serial number 26. I have started my upholstery. I added a lot of weight between building seatbacks and all the avionics but what the heck, this is what I want. I have started changing the system to latch the canopy down, built 1-1/8" control sticks to fit my old Cobra grips. It will be full IFR, auto pilot GRT dual, and get this, sport pilot. I am at the point of no more medicals. Ready to install the canopy but I will modify the canopy frame first to fit the glass better. Any suggestions where to put the refrigerator? Johnny << seats2.jpg >> << seats1.jpg >> _________________________________________________________________ Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN In Concert today. http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:15 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Winglets or modified winglets? Buz: I believe the tips on the Lightning are regular tips with a rounded edge? Has Arion considered Horner tips? I'm not suggesting those, but they are very common with the Murphy aircraft and my Rebel lowered stall by a few mph, and increased the top end by 1 or 2. When you're flying at 100-110mph, that's a lot. They effectively increase the wingspan by a similar effect as the winglets that we were talking about. With a quick Google, there seems to be quite a bit of information on the subject relating to the Van's kits. Looks like some late night reading to catch up on. Jim! N730AL _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich@aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 1:16 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Winglets or modified winglets? In a message dated 5/6/2007 12:01:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pequeajim@gmail.com writes: Thanks for the info Buz. What do the winglets do for the top end? Jim, The answer to your question is "It all depends". Winglets seem to be a part of aviation design that is part science and part magic - kind of like finding the right propeller for a specific airplane (more on that later in another e-mail). The idea behind winglets is that, properly designed, they reduce the wingtip vortices, and thus decreases overall drag. What really happens is that the winglet is designed to produce a vortex that is opposite to the wing vortex and thus cancel out each other (therefore less overall drag). There is also a somewhat effective span increase when using winglets - so you in effect you have a longer wing without the increased drag penalty. Therefore, you can sometimes get two drag reductions by using winglets. Burt Rutan has used them effectively on several of his designs as well as some of the more modern "super gliders" use them to great effect. The real key to any improvement totally depends on how they are designed. The obvious questions are: how large to make them and at what angle should they be installed? Throw in the question of the specific airfoil shape on the winglet and you start to see just how much science and magic is involved. I am sure that most winglets you are starting to see on experimental aircraft are just there to make the design look more modern with probably not much overall effect of drag reduction. In fact, if they are not done correctly they can have an adverse effect on the yaw stability of an airplane - not so much making it more yaw unstable, but instead causing the opposite effect where it takes much more rudder to yaw the airplane. Bottom line, I really have no clue as to how much winglets might do for top end on a Lightning. They will probably help, but until installed and flight tested how do we really know. The idea behind the tip extensions and possible winglets on the Lightning will be to add wing area ant thus lower stall speed for those who want to have it meet light sport requirements. Any increase in top end will also result in more efficient cruise numbers as far a fuel burn. Should be a win-win situation. You can bet that the Lightning team will do it right if they do it at all. I am that confident in the way they do things. Blue Skies, Buz _____ See what's free at AOL.com . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:08 PM PST US From: "Johnny Thompson" Subject: Lightning-List: Lightning Mods MessageHi Colin The seatbacks are independent from the bottom seats. The backs are hinged at the bottom to the rear seat bulkhead, they do fold forward to allow for standard access to the baggage area.They are constructed by glass,1/8" foam and glass with a with a 3 ply glass frame perpendicular to the back to hold the "memory foam" in the shape I picked. All material is FAA approved. The bottoms are the new pans provided by Arion, I narrowed them 3/8" and added 1/8" carbon fiber honeycomb to each side of the pan to hold the shape of the leather pop outs. The tan leather pop outs are made of the softest (pink) memory foam which will not squeeze the pilots body. The bottom cushions are green and pink foam except at the forward section where it is only pink. This allows you to have the maximum clearance between the controls and instrument panel. The cloth bottom section allows you to add or remove blue foam depending of the height of the pilots. Without the blue foam the pads only take up about 1-1/4" when setting on the seat. The aluminum side panels are a work in progress. I have designed a different canopy latching system from parts used in other aircraft. I will have one handle to operate 4 latches (2 on each side) that when closed pulls the canopy downward and stops all sideward movement. I should have the linkage in by the end of the week. The aluminum panes will hold upholstery and hide the linkage. So far the latches hold the canopy perfect but cost ($) for parts is too high for the benefits as of this date. I put in 4 aluminum air vents in place of the 2 plastic ones, I like the looks and they close off completely. If you look closely the are from the passenger compartment of most airlines. We had a 737 that was scrapped so they were free. The center console was also modified. I raised the top forward section 1 1/2" to give the throttle more room and a padded arm rest will be added to the rear section. I enjoy doing all this but remember, it all comes with a big weight penalty. My goal is to personally lower my weight by whatever the aircraft gains. Johnny Ruby Star Airpark, (14AZ) Arizona. ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin J. Kennedy To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:35 AM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Arion Lightning makes the news. Nicest seats I've seen yet Johnny. Can they be tipped forward to give better access to the baggage compartment? Can you share with us how they were designed/constructed? The side panel looks like aluminum - is that part of the kit or something you decided to do yourself and why? Looks like you have extra air vents in the panel too? Colin K. OK ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:09 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Winglets or modified winglets? Jim, Yes, the current Lightning tips are the standard rounded type. So far they have not tried Hoerner tips. As I understand it, Hoerner tips which turn up (and droop tips which obviously turn down) attempt to reduce the effect of wing tip vortices by "throwing" the vortex out further from the wing thereby making the wing "think" it were a few inches longer. The droop tips do seem to help stall when in ground effect. However, neither of these would have enough effect on the Lightning wing (and the required reduction in stall speed to meet LSA). What will be needed for that requirement is some additional wing area. That additional area and some effective tips are what they will be looking at. And yes, there is lots of need for studying all available information on the subject. I feel confident the Lightning team is already involved in that. Buz ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:11 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Winglets or modified winglets? There is a very simple discussion by Chris Heinz of wing and wingtip design at the following link if anyone is interested. http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/design/design.html Jim! _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich@aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:04 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Winglets or modified winglets? Jim, Yes, the current Lightning tips are the standard rounded type. So far they have not tried Hoerner tips. As I understand it, Hoerner tips which turn up (and droop tips which obviously turn down) attempt to reduce the effect of wing tip vortices by "throwing" the vortex out further from the wing thereby making the wing "think" it were a few inches longer. The droop tips do seem to help stall when in ground effect. However, neither of these would have enough effect on the Lightning wing (and the required reduction in stall speed to meet LSA). What will be needed for that requirement is some additional wing area. That additional area and some effective tips are what they will be looking at. And yes, there is lots of need for studying all available information on the subject. I feel confident the Lightning team is already involved in that. Buz _____ See what's free at AOL.com . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:24 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Winglets or modified winglets? In all my reading on winglet design I have found that it is very much trial and error on the angle of attachment. Thorough testing needs to be done in order to verify all performance data. In addition it is going to effect the wings torsional properties. Most current winglets are added to reduce fuel consumption by about 1-3%. They aren't added as a way to increase speed, although it stands to reason with reduced drag you should get a byproduct of speed. Also, from all the current stuff written on Horner tips, it all says that in cruising flight there is no difference in data obtained with regards to the Horner tips. Current aircraft typically utilize a winglet of about 1/3 the height that they would need to be in order to see the potential they could gain. The reason why they don't make them taller? Looks. It would look bad. Also most winglets are a post production modification. The increase in vertical surface area makes the plane too stable, which means you would need to decrease tail volume and/or increase rudder. The most current aircraft are looking to utilize horizontal winglets, or raked tips like the 777 and 787 have. These keep from having to structurally reinforce the wingtip extra, keeps stability the same, but adds wing area while decreasing the wingtip vortices. I'm not sure of any GA aircraft that has raked tips. There's another kind of wingtip though. The one like which was used on the Esqual wing like Buz has. This looks almost like a little mini blended winglet (like SouthWest 737's). I'm not sure how much they would decrease tip vortices, but they would act as a wing endplate which would keep the airflow from traveling laterally across the wing (although that benefit would be more apparent with a highly swept wing than a straight wing). The Airbus A-320 uses a wingtip fence, which is more like this end plating than a winglet. The actual purpose of a winglet though isn't to reduce drag, it isn't to gain speed, it is "to add additional wing area without paying the drag penalty that would be associated with a typical extension." The easiest thing to do would be something similar to the Esqual. Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ Download Messenger. Join the im Initiative. 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