Lightning-List Digest Archive

Mon 05/07/07


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:37 AM - Re: Winglets or modified winglets? (Peter and Jan Disher)
     2. 12:03 PM - Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (nick otterback)
     3. 12:17 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Rick Bowen)
     4. 12:53 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Hugh Sontag)
     5. 01:33 PM - [ Monte Evans ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
     6. 02:53 PM - Re: [ Monte Evans ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Rick Bowen)
     7. 03:30 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Mark Stauffer)
     8. 03:33 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Miguel Maia de Loureiro)
     9. 04:13 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (N1BZRich@aol.com)
    10. 05:21 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (aj)
    11. 05:31 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Brian Whittingham)
    12. 05:33 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Brian Whittingham)
    13. 07:49 PM - Lightning vs Sport Cruiser..& Cruise to stall ratios. (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
    14. 08:26 PM - Re: Winglets or modified winglets? (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:37:10 AM PST US
    From: "Peter and Jan Disher" <pjdisher@bigpond.com>
    Subject: Re: Winglets or modified winglets?
    Hi Buz,Nick & Brian, Earlier email failed now one picture only of our winglet sugestion for my a/c. Its our effot to date and your thoughts on this design would be appreciated. Would somethink like this work? Regards, Peter Disher Hallidays Point Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: N1BZRich@aol.com To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Winglets or modified winglets? Jim, Yes, the current Lightning tips are the standard rounded type. So far they have not tried Hoerner tips. As I understand it, Hoerner tips which turn up (and droop tips which obviously turn down) attempt to reduce the effect of wing tip vortices by "throwing" the vortex out further from the wing thereby making the wing "think" it were a few inches longer. The droop tips do seem to help stall when in ground effect. However, neither of these would have enough effect on the Lightning wing (and the required reduction in stall speed to meet LSA). What will be needed for that requirement is some additional wing area. That additional area and some effective tips are what they will be looking at. And yes, there is lots of need for studying all available information on the subject. I feel confident the Lightning team is already involved in that. Buz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 6/05/2007 9:01 PM


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:03:26 PM PST US
    From: nick otterback <vettin74@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
    To the Group ... I recently recieved a forward from over the pond about the lightning, it was from one of the sport cruiser lists....The "chap" if you will said that the lightning was good looking but not nearly as sexy as the Sport cruiser ...very interesting...also that the perfromance specs for the lightning were impossible, with that old massey ferguson engine up front (must be a rotax driver talking about the jabiru). Just thought i would throw this out and see what the reaction was... Nick Otterback nick otterback <vettin74@yahoo.com> wrote: --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.


    Message 3


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    Time: 12:17:59 PM PST US
    From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
    Wait a minute----the guy said the Sport Cruiser LOOKED BETTER than the Lightning? Methinks he be drinking too much ale to see correctly....'ya know, the "ooh what a hot babe" when drunk syndrome....then finding out he was looking at a Orangatang at the zoo.... Rick _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07


    Message 4


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    Time: 12:53:34 PM PST US
    From: Hugh Sontag <flying@qdea.com>
    Subject: Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
    I saw the Sport Cruiser at Sun and Fun, and was impressed with the published numbers compared to most of the other Light Sport entries. It's an all-metal airplane built with traditional GA techniques. The 33 mph (that's statue miles per hour) could be too good to be true, but it may be real. The cruise speed of 138 mph is significantly better than almost all of the LSA entrants, and the baggage space is almost ample. Most LSA's spec a cruise of 110 to 115 mph. It appears to be a darned nice airplane, and it's reasonably attractive. I'd keep one that someone gave me. The guy I got a brochure from told me it was around $65,000, but I find that the sportaircraftworks.com web site lists a basic airframe with the 912 ULS 100 HP Rotax for $79,500. But compared to a Lightning, I'd say the following: - The Lightning is more attractive, sleeker, with better lines. - The Lightning is way faster, or lower drag, with better fuel economy. - The Lightning is less expensive. - I still want a BRS chute without giving up useful load in the baggage area, though! Hugh Sontag >To the Group ... > >I recently recieved a forward from over the pond about the >lightning, it was from one of the sport cruiser lists....The "chap" >if you will said that the lightning was good looking but not nearly >as sexy as the Sport cruiser ...very interesting...also that the >perfromance specs for the lightning were impossible, with that old >massey ferguson engine up front (must be a rotax driver talking >about the jabiru). Just thought i would throw this out and see what >the reaction was... > >Nick Otterback


    Message 5


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    Time: 01:33:37 PM PST US
    Subject: [ Monte Evans ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
    From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
    A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Monte Evans <monte65@bellsouth.net> Lists: Lightning-List Subject: Two pictures from Sun-N-Fun http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/monte65@bellsouth.net.05.07.2007/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------- o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ----------------------------------------------------------


    Message 6


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    Time: 02:53:47 PM PST US
    From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop@hotmail.com>
    Subject: [ Monte Evans ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
    Hey Monte, Welcome to the list----nice pics you took there of the Green Acres guys Lightning...I mean "Green Landings"! Rick N727RB _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:30:58 PM PST US
    From: "Mark Stauffer" <mark.stauffer1@gmail.com>
    Subject: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
    Beer Goggles!! Don't ask how I know....... (and no, there were no Orangutans were involved!!) Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Bowen Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:18 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... Wait a minute----the guy said the Sport Cruiser LOOKED BETTER than the Lightning? Methinks he be drinking too much ale to see correctly....'ya know, the "ooh what a hot babe" when drunk syndrome....then finding out he was looking at a Orangatang at the zoo.... Rick _________________________________________________________________ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapr il07


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:33:40 PM PST US
    From: "Miguel Maia de Loureiro" <ultralight.flyer@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
    ROTAX han?! Bombardier start its production consider several aplications from machines to cut the grass to airplanes. Thats a real fact that Bombardier ROTAX have more years of experience than Jabiru. I always though t that less moving parts means less problems. Lockeed won the contest with JS F against Boeing because of economy and other factors. They almost lost because of excessive moving parts of VTOL system applied. The grasshoopers or ROTAX propolsion systems use a reduction gear box, independent oil lubricant tank to water cooling system or water valve control axel, bl=E1 b l=E1 bl=E1, lots of moving parts and confusion... and when we open the cowl it seams we're doctors in surgery block with an dead body opened to the sky. Jabiru was made for airplanes... its a bird. ROTAX is something noisy wich rotate somehow to go up in the air (not fly) or drag underground. Whatever needs an engine except for nice flying, would work with a ROTAX... We call it DJ sample loop with sexy starts and stops. Seriously, i've respect alot Bombardier with all experience they have and the reliability of its engines... but honestly, it sounds like a truck. My apologies for all 18 weelers... PHONNNN PHONNNN... -- Miguel Maia de Loureiro Ultralight Pilot Suport Services Cel.: +351 91 419 21 04 e-Mail: ultralight.flyer@gmail.com


    Message 9


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    Time: 04:13:39 PM PST US
    From: N1BZRich@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
    All, To my eye the Sport Cruiser is a dolled up Zenith Zodiac 601. In fact, I am pretty sure that the country and company that now produces the Sport Cruiser was the same country and company that had a contract to make a complete turn key Zodiac a few years ago. I think they improved the design in looks and a few structural changes and are calling it a new airplane. Yep, things like that do occasionally happen. Based on flying a Zodiac 601 XL recently that our EAA chapter built, I would not really doubt the Sport Cruiser performance claims as far as stall and cruise speed. Besides, the 601 I flew has a 3300 Jabiru engine. And I am pretty sure the Sport Cruiser can be ordered with a Jabiru. However, the Sport Cruiser is certainly no Lightning in any shape or form. It does not look near as good and does not perform anywhere near the Lightning numbers. But then beauty is in the eye of the beholder - except in the case that Rick mentioned where the "beholder" has had a few too many drinks. Then again, maybe the Sport Cruiser guy had the A-10 pilot's philosophy - "Go ugly early." That does save them time at the bar, but they often regret being seen with their date. Blue Skies, Buz ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:21:48 PM PST US
    From: aj <ajhauter@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
    If the sport cruiser can cruise 138 and stall 33, that is a 4.2 cruise to stall ratio, you will be hard pressed to find anything above 4.0 that isn't sporting a jet engine. I would say they made some significant improvements to the Zodiac. On May 7, 2007, at 7:13 PM, N1BZRich@aol.com wrote: > All, > To my eye the Sport Cruiser is a dolled up Zenith Zodiac 601. > In fact, I am pretty sure that the country and company that now > produces the Sport Cruiser was the same country and company that > had a contract to make a complete turn key Zodiac a few years ago. > I think they improved the design in looks and a few structural > changes and are calling it a new airplane. Yep, things like that > do occasionally happen. > Based on flying a Zodiac 601 XL recently that our EAA chapter > built, I would not really doubt the Sport Cruiser performance > claims as far as stall and cruise speed. Besides, the 601 I flew > has a 3300 Jabiru engine. And I am pretty sure the Sport Cruiser > can be ordered with a Jabiru. However, the Sport Cruiser is > certainly no Lightning in any shape or form. It does not look near > as good and does not perform anywhere near the Lightning numbers. > But then beauty is in the eye of the beholder - except in the > case that Rick mentioned where the "beholder" has had a few too > many drinks. Then again, maybe the Sport Cruiser guy had the A-10 > pilot's philosophy - "Go ugly early." That does save them time at > the bar, but they often regret being seen with their date. > Blue Skies, > Buz > > > See what's free at AOL.com. > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 05:31:28 PM PST US
    From: "Brian Whittingham" <dashvii@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
    "If the sport cruiser can cruise 138 and stall 33, that is a 4.2 cruise to stall ratio, you will be hard pressed to find anything above 4.0 that isn't sporting a jet engine. I would say they made some significant improvements to the Zodiac." Just a note. If somebody put VG's on a non-LSA compliant airplane, it should be able to do 200+mph full throttle and stall at 40mph, that'd be a 5:1. Just a thought. (A 33 mph stall is pretty impressive, but you aint getting it into and out of a field any shorter than a Lightning, and where I come from if you fly 33mph you're going backwards anyhow!) Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01


    Message 12


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    Time: 05:33:22 PM PST US
    From: "Brian Whittingham" <dashvii@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
    I just gotta respond to this. Okay, I'm a little biased, but I've been around both planes. In my eyes (and therefore the other dude is wrong) the Lightning is much sleeker and sexier looking than the Sport Cruiser. The lines of the Lightning follow those of the Lancair or Cirrus. I can remember being around when the Lightning was a bucket of parts sitting over in the corner. I remember asking Nick what that was. It looked fast even just as a fuselage sitting there. I had been flying Esquals and this thing was kind of like an Esqual on steroids in my mind. Well as the thing came into reality and we got to see the performance results and as I got to be one of the first to fly a Lightning (lucky bastard me) I found that it outflew the Esqual be leaps and bounds. More than that it was more fun to fly than most airplanes that I know. It isn't going to be as "stable" as something like a Bonanza, but it was designed to be a sport plane. Some stability was traded for performance. There's still plenty left though that it flies hands and feet off when trimmed up and does what you would expect out of a plane when you input your actions. I just flew 5 hours today in a Lightning using only 2 fingers to fly it (and one once I got up off the deck!) If you like those anorexic girls with the straight up and down profile, then have at the sportcruiser. Me, I think a sexy lady has some curves. You know, it's like the difference from being skinny, and being fit. As far as I have seen there is NOTHING out there yet that is LSA complient with the looks. Going outside of the LSA rule I don't know of many piston engine airplanes ever made that have these performance numbers. There's faster, but they burn 2-3 times as much fuel for 30 more mph. The Lightning was created to meet certain requirements and for a certain market. It has met or exceeded every design goal that I know of. As for the engine. The Jabiru is what the Continental guys would come up with if they made an O-200 for the new century. The engine is quit, extremely fuel efficient, non-complex, and smoooottthh. Flying the Cirrus SR-22 G2 I found that it was a thrill as far as having mondo horsepower and going fast. It wasn't much faster than a Lightning though, burned a whole lot more fuel, and one thing that I kept thinking was that this engine really shakes when you give it the throttle. Not the Jabiru engine though. (not to try to take away from the Cirrus, still one of my favorite planes ever) On a final note, the Arion guys think logically about how they can improve their design, keep the design simple to maintain, and increase efficiency. As Buz can verify, there's a secret R&D program through Arion in charge of thinking how they can do this or that. There's a unique culture there of Yankees and Rednecks that somehow work well together. You've heard of the Lockheed Skunk Works? Well, I submit (representing the Redneck bunch) that the Arion design group be known henceforth as the "Polecat Works". ;-) Seriously, there's a place out in the desert, wierd things flying there! Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN In Concert today. http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:49:34 PM PST US
    From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM
    Subject: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser..& Cruise to stall ratios.
    In a message dated 5/7/2007 8:22:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ajhauter@yahoo.com writes: If the sport cruiser can cruise 138 and stall 33, that is a 4.2 cruise to stall ratio, you will be hard pressed to find anything above 4.0 that isn't sporting a jet engine. AJ, Yes, in the old days, a cruise to stall ratio of 4.0 would have been considered leading edge. Today, I am not so sure. My Jabiru 3300 powered highly modified Esqual LS (with lots of Lightning Stuff) will cruise at 170 burning 5.8 gph at altitude and it stalls at 34 with the flaps down. That is a 5.0 ratio. With the new prop I am testing, it has a top speed at 5000 feet of 185 and that is with the hot OATs we are currently seeing. And I am still able to run it past redline so I could use even more prop. Down on the deck (I live close to sea level) I have seen 198 indicated and am pulling the power back to keep below the max rpm for the Jabiru. So what speed will a well built, well aligned, cleaned up Lightning really do when Nick finally selects the right prop for it? As Brian mentioned, a Lightning with VGs or the "in the works" tip extensions (and thus the much lower stall speed) should have a ratio right up there near 5.0. But is the Lightning the airplane for everyone? No, not necessarily. Different strokes for different folks, so to speak. Some people like rivets. I guess that is why one of the new SR-22s seen at Sun-N-Fun had rivets painted on it. Blue Skies, Buz ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:26:40 PM PST US
    From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM
    Subject: Re: Winglets or modified winglets?
    Hi Peter, The tip looks good, but until you try it, there is no way to know how it might work. I have no idea how you determine the various sizes and angles to use, but what you have done certainly looka unique. And it is an impressive bit of fiberglass work with the compound curves and angles. I have never seen anyone combine a droop tip with a winglet. I have seen the up turned Hoerner tips with winglets (I think they have started calling them "blended tips") and they obviously work. That way should be much easier to construct. Be sure to let us know how your design works out. Blue Skies, Buz ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.




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