Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:37 AM - Re: Winglets or modified winglets? (Peter and Jan Disher)
2. 12:03 PM - Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (nick otterback)
3. 12:17 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Rick Bowen)
4. 12:53 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Hugh Sontag)
5. 01:33 PM - [ Monte Evans ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
6. 02:53 PM - Re: [ Monte Evans ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Rick Bowen)
7. 03:30 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Mark Stauffer)
8. 03:33 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Miguel Maia de Loureiro)
9. 04:13 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (N1BZRich@aol.com)
10. 05:21 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (aj)
11. 05:31 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Brian Whittingham)
12. 05:33 PM - Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... (Brian Whittingham)
13. 07:49 PM - Lightning vs Sport Cruiser..& Cruise to stall ratios. (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
14. 08:26 PM - Re: Winglets or modified winglets? (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Winglets or modified winglets? |
Hi Buz,Nick & Brian,
Earlier email failed now one picture only of our winglet sugestion for
my a/c.
Its our effot to date and your thoughts on this design would be
appreciated.
Would somethink like this work?
Regards,
Peter Disher
Hallidays Point
Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: N1BZRich@aol.com
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Winglets or modified winglets?
Jim,
Yes, the current Lightning tips are the standard rounded type. So far
they have not tried Hoerner tips. As I understand it, Hoerner tips
which turn up (and droop tips which obviously turn down) attempt to
reduce the effect of wing tip vortices by "throwing" the vortex out
further from the wing thereby making the wing "think" it were a few
inches longer. The droop tips do seem to help stall when in ground
effect. However, neither of these would have enough effect on the
Lightning wing (and the required reduction in stall speed to meet LSA).
What will be needed for that requirement is some additional wing area.
That additional area and some effective tips are what they will be
looking at. And yes, there is lots of need for studying all available
information on the subject. I feel confident the Lightning team is
already involved in that.
Buz
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Subject: | Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... |
To the Group ...
I recently recieved a forward from over the pond about the lightning, it was
from one of the sport cruiser lists....The "chap" if you will said that the lightning
was good looking but not nearly as sexy as the Sport cruiser ...very interesting...also
that the perfromance specs for the lightning were impossible,
with that old massey ferguson engine up front (must be a rotax driver talking
about the jabiru). Just thought i would throw this out and see what the reaction
was...
Nick Otterback
nick otterback <vettin74@yahoo.com> wrote:
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Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 3
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Subject: | Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... |
Wait a minute----the guy said the Sport Cruiser LOOKED BETTER than the
Lightning?
Methinks he be drinking too much ale to see correctly....'ya know, the "ooh
what a hot babe" when drunk syndrome....then finding out he was looking at a
Orangatang at the zoo....
Rick
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Subject: | Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... |
I saw the Sport Cruiser at Sun and Fun, and was impressed with the
published numbers compared to most of the other Light Sport entries.
It's an all-metal airplane built with traditional GA techniques. The
33 mph (that's statue miles per hour) could be too good to be true,
but it may be real.
The cruise speed of 138 mph is significantly better than almost all
of the LSA entrants, and the baggage space is almost ample. Most
LSA's spec a cruise of 110 to 115 mph.
It appears to be a darned nice airplane, and it's reasonably
attractive. I'd keep one that someone gave me.
The guy I got a brochure from told me it was around $65,000, but I
find that the sportaircraftworks.com web site lists a basic airframe
with the 912 ULS 100 HP Rotax for $79,500.
But compared to a Lightning, I'd say the following:
- The Lightning is more attractive, sleeker, with better lines.
- The Lightning is way faster, or lower drag, with better fuel economy.
- The Lightning is less expensive.
- I still want a BRS chute without giving up useful load in the
baggage area, though!
Hugh Sontag
>To the Group ...
>
>I recently recieved a forward from over the pond about the
>lightning, it was from one of the sport cruiser lists....The "chap"
>if you will said that the lightning was good looking but not nearly
>as sexy as the Sport cruiser ...very interesting...also that the
>perfromance specs for the lightning were impossible, with that old
>massey ferguson engine up front (must be a rotax driver talking
>about the jabiru). Just thought i would throw this out and see what
>the reaction was...
>
>Nick Otterback
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Subject: | [ Monte Evans ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Monte Evans <monte65@bellsouth.net>
Lists: Lightning-List
Subject: Two pictures from Sun-N-Fun
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/monte65@bellsouth.net.05.07.2007/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
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Message 6
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Subject: | [ Monte Evans ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
Hey Monte,
Welcome to the list----nice pics you took there of the Green Acres guys
Lightning...I mean "Green Landings"!
Rick
N727RB
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Message 7
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Subject: | Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... |
Beer Goggles!! Don't ask how I know....... (and no, there were no Orangutans
were involved!!)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Bowen
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 2:18 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser...
Wait a minute----the guy said the Sport Cruiser LOOKED BETTER than the
Lightning?
Methinks he be drinking too much ale to see correctly....'ya know, the "ooh
what a hot babe" when drunk syndrome....then finding out he was looking at a
Orangatang at the zoo....
Rick
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapr
il07
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... |
ROTAX han?! Bombardier start its production consider several aplications
from machines to cut the grass to airplanes. Thats a real fact that
Bombardier ROTAX have more years of experience than Jabiru. I always though
t
that less moving parts means less problems. Lockeed won the contest with JS
F
against Boeing because of economy and other factors. They almost lost
because of excessive moving parts of VTOL system applied. The grasshoopers
or ROTAX propolsion systems use a reduction gear box, independent oil
lubricant tank to water cooling system or water valve control axel, bl=E1 b
l=E1
bl=E1, lots of moving parts and confusion... and when we open the cowl it
seams we're doctors in surgery block with an dead body opened to the sky.
Jabiru was made for airplanes... its a bird. ROTAX is something noisy wich
rotate somehow to go up in the air (not fly) or drag underground. Whatever
needs an engine except for nice flying, would work with a ROTAX... We call
it DJ sample loop with sexy starts and stops. Seriously, i've respect alot
Bombardier with all experience they have and the reliability of its
engines... but honestly, it sounds like a truck. My apologies for all 18
weelers... PHONNNN PHONNNN...
--
Miguel Maia de Loureiro
Ultralight Pilot Suport Services
Cel.: +351 91 419 21 04
e-Mail: ultralight.flyer@gmail.com
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... |
All,
To my eye the Sport Cruiser is a dolled up Zenith Zodiac 601. In fact,
I am pretty sure that the country and company that now produces the Sport
Cruiser was the same country and company that had a contract to make a complete
turn key Zodiac a few years ago. I think they improved the design in looks
and a few structural changes and are calling it a new airplane. Yep, things
like that do occasionally happen.
Based on flying a Zodiac 601 XL recently that our EAA chapter built, I
would not really doubt the Sport Cruiser performance claims as far as stall
and cruise speed. Besides, the 601 I flew has a 3300 Jabiru engine. And I am
pretty sure the Sport Cruiser can be ordered with a Jabiru. However, the
Sport Cruiser is certainly no Lightning in any shape or form. It does not look
near as good and does not perform anywhere near the Lightning numbers.
But then beauty is in the eye of the beholder - except in the case that
Rick mentioned where the "beholder" has had a few too many drinks. Then
again, maybe the Sport Cruiser guy had the A-10 pilot's philosophy - "Go ugly
early." That does save them time at the bar, but they often regret being seen
with their date.
Blue Skies,
Buz
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Subject: | Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... |
If the sport cruiser can cruise 138 and stall 33, that is a 4.2
cruise to stall ratio, you will be hard pressed to find anything
above 4.0 that isn't sporting a jet engine. I would say they made
some significant improvements to the Zodiac.
On May 7, 2007, at 7:13 PM, N1BZRich@aol.com wrote:
> All,
> To my eye the Sport Cruiser is a dolled up Zenith Zodiac 601.
> In fact, I am pretty sure that the country and company that now
> produces the Sport Cruiser was the same country and company that
> had a contract to make a complete turn key Zodiac a few years ago.
> I think they improved the design in looks and a few structural
> changes and are calling it a new airplane. Yep, things like that
> do occasionally happen.
> Based on flying a Zodiac 601 XL recently that our EAA chapter
> built, I would not really doubt the Sport Cruiser performance
> claims as far as stall and cruise speed. Besides, the 601 I flew
> has a 3300 Jabiru engine. And I am pretty sure the Sport Cruiser
> can be ordered with a Jabiru. However, the Sport Cruiser is
> certainly no Lightning in any shape or form. It does not look near
> as good and does not perform anywhere near the Lightning numbers.
> But then beauty is in the eye of the beholder - except in the
> case that Rick mentioned where the "beholder" has had a few too
> many drinks. Then again, maybe the Sport Cruiser guy had the A-10
> pilot's philosophy - "Go ugly early." That does save them time at
> the bar, but they often regret being seen with their date.
> Blue Skies,
> Buz
>
>
> See what's free at AOL.com.
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... |
"If the sport cruiser can cruise 138 and stall 33, that is a 4.2 cruise to
stall ratio, you will be hard pressed to find anything above 4.0 that isn't
sporting a jet engine. I would say they made some significant improvements
to the Zodiac."
Just a note. If somebody put VG's on a non-LSA compliant airplane, it
should be able to do 200+mph full throttle and stall at 40mph, that'd be a
5:1. Just a thought. (A 33 mph stall is pretty impressive, but you aint
getting it into and out of a field any shorter than a Lightning, and where I
come from if you fly 33mph you're going backwards anyhow!) Brian W.
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Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Lightning vs Sport Cruiser... |
I just gotta respond to this. Okay, I'm a little biased, but I've been
around both planes. In my eyes (and therefore the other dude is wrong) the
Lightning is much sleeker and sexier looking than the Sport Cruiser. The
lines of the Lightning follow those of the Lancair or Cirrus. I can
remember being around when the Lightning was a bucket of parts sitting over
in the corner. I remember asking Nick what that was. It looked fast even
just as a fuselage sitting there. I had been flying Esquals and this thing
was kind of like an Esqual on steroids in my mind. Well as the thing came
into reality and we got to see the performance results and as I got to be
one of the first to fly a Lightning (lucky bastard me) I found that it
outflew the Esqual be leaps and bounds. More than that it was more fun to
fly than most airplanes that I know. It isn't going to be as "stable" as
something like a Bonanza, but it was designed to be a sport plane. Some
stability was traded for performance. There's still plenty left though that
it flies hands and feet off when trimmed up and does what you would expect
out of a plane when you input your actions. I just flew 5 hours today in a
Lightning using only 2 fingers to fly it (and one once I got up off the
deck!)
If you like those anorexic girls with the straight up and down profile, then
have at the sportcruiser. Me, I think a sexy lady has some curves. You
know, it's like the difference from being skinny, and being fit. As far as
I have seen there is NOTHING out there yet that is LSA complient with the
looks. Going outside of the LSA rule I don't know of many piston engine
airplanes ever made that have these performance numbers. There's faster,
but they burn 2-3 times as much fuel for 30 more mph. The Lightning was
created to meet certain requirements and for a certain market. It has met
or exceeded every design goal that I know of.
As for the engine. The Jabiru is what the Continental guys would come up
with if they made an O-200 for the new century. The engine is quit,
extremely fuel efficient, non-complex, and smoooottthh. Flying the Cirrus
SR-22 G2 I found that it was a thrill as far as having mondo horsepower and
going fast. It wasn't much faster than a Lightning though, burned a whole
lot more fuel, and one thing that I kept thinking was that this engine
really shakes when you give it the throttle. Not the Jabiru engine though.
(not to try to take away from the Cirrus, still one of my favorite planes
ever)
On a final note, the Arion guys think logically about how they can improve
their design, keep the design simple to maintain, and increase efficiency.
As Buz can verify, there's a secret R&D program through Arion in charge of
thinking how they can do this or that. There's a unique culture there of
Yankees and Rednecks that somehow work well together. You've heard of the
Lockheed Skunk Works? Well, I submit (representing the Redneck bunch) that
the Arion design group be known henceforth as the "Polecat Works". ;-)
Seriously, there's a place out in the desert, wierd things flying there!
Brian W.
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Message 13
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Subject: | Lightning vs Sport Cruiser..& Cruise to stall ratios. |
In a message dated 5/7/2007 8:22:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ajhauter@yahoo.com writes:
If the sport cruiser can cruise 138 and stall 33, that is a 4.2 cruise to
stall ratio, you will be hard pressed to find anything above 4.0 that isn't
sporting a jet engine.
AJ,
Yes, in the old days, a cruise to stall ratio of 4.0 would have been
considered leading edge. Today, I am not so sure. My Jabiru 3300 powered
highly modified Esqual LS (with lots of Lightning Stuff) will cruise at 170
burning 5.8 gph at altitude and it stalls at 34 with the flaps down. That is
a 5.0
ratio. With the new prop I am testing, it has a top speed at 5000 feet of
185 and that is with the hot OATs we are currently seeing. And I am still
able to run it past redline so I could use even more prop. Down on the deck (I
live close to sea level) I have seen 198 indicated and am pulling the power
back to keep below the max rpm for the Jabiru. So what speed will a well
built, well aligned, cleaned up Lightning really do when Nick finally selects
the right prop for it? As Brian mentioned, a Lightning with VGs or the "in the
works" tip extensions (and thus the much lower stall speed) should have a
ratio right up there near 5.0.
But is the Lightning the airplane for everyone? No, not necessarily.
Different strokes for different folks, so to speak. Some people like rivets.
I guess that is why one of the new SR-22s seen at Sun-N-Fun had rivets
painted on it.
Blue Skies,
Buz
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Winglets or modified winglets? |
Hi Peter,
The tip looks good, but until you try it, there is no way to know how it
might work. I have no idea how you determine the various sizes and angles to
use, but what you have done certainly looka unique. And it is an impressive
bit of fiberglass work with the compound curves and angles. I have never seen
anyone combine a droop tip with a winglet. I have seen the up turned Hoerner
tips with winglets (I think they have started calling them "blended tips")
and they obviously work. That way should be much easier to construct. Be sure
to let us know how your design works out.
Blue Skies,
Buz
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