---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/24/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:34 AM - Re: Best prop (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 2. 11:44 AM - Fuel selector valve (Jim Langley) 3. 11:58 AM - Re: Fuel selector valve () 4. 03:36 PM - Re: Fuel selector valve (nick otterback) 5. 04:04 PM - Re: Fuel selector valve (Pete) 6. 04:13 PM - Re: Fuel selector valve (pequeajim) 7. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selector valve (Brian Whittingham) 8. 04:51 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selector valve (Benjamin Smith) 9. 04:56 PM - Flight test results (Brian Whittingham) 10. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: Fuel selector valve (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 11. 07:27 PM - Re: Flight test results (EAFerguson@AOL.COM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:51 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Best prop Jim, I will also post this to the Lightning group as it might be of interest to others. As far as my experience goes (with my airplane and the other Lightnings I have flown), Ryan is right on. I have been very pleased with the Sensenich props, both wood and carbon fiber, that have the "ZK" blade profile. Note - that is the only blade profile that I have flown, but I do know that Nick has tried others and is currently testing a different blade profile on a fixed pitch wooden Sensenich. Also, all of the Sensenich props that I have used have been 64 inches in diameter, but I have tried pitches of 51", 53", 54" and 55 inches. I am currently flying the 55 inch and have about decided I still need another inch of pitch on 31BZ. With the 55" pitch I can still over speed the engine rpm limit at 5000' in level flight. I have not tested it higher than 5000' but will probably do that soon. Most of my prop data for the other pitches had been done at 5000 so that is where I do my comparison testing. Having said the above, let me make a few other comments. First, it seems to me that the ground adjustable carbon fiber prop (pitch set at 54 inches) is about the same at the fixed pitch of 54 inches UNTIL you get to the speed regime above 160 mph or so. Above that speed (and I can only guess as to why) it is just not as efficient or fast. On my airplane (your mileage may vary) I lose about 8 to 10 mph on top end. I say about 8 mph because various test have resulted in various results (probably due to OAT) with the loss of speed varying between 6 to 15 mph. I think it has to do with the carbon fiber blades being stiffer. Also the total weight of the carbon fiber prop with the aluminum hub is certainly heavier. I also seem to burn slightly more fuel when this prop in on. Second, the wooden fixed pitch props seem to run slightly smoother than the carbon fiber prop did for me. Note - I had one of the very early ground adjustable props and later ones may be better. But for me, the smoother run, the lighter weight, the less fuel burn, and the faster speed all point to me using a wooden Sensenich. Third, both the white painted wooden and carbon fiber props seem to not like to be flown in the rain. The paint on the leading edge erodes - at least on the outer 12 inches or so. I know they have changed the way they paint the carbon fiber ones based on what I saw at Sun-N-Fun. They now leave the metal leading edge (nickel?) unpainted and that should help. They look good that way. The wooded props with the clear wooden finish do not seem to have this problem - at least I have not noticed it. So I am thinking the next prop I order will have the wood finish. Kind of looks "neat" to me in an "out of the ordinary way" to have a wood looking prop on a faster airplane. Fourth, as I mentioned above I am currently testing the 64ZK55 wooden Sensenich. Top speed at 5000' with spring like OATs (and holding the rpm to 3300) seems to averaging about 185 mph TAS or so, but my engine will still turn up to 3400 or more if you let it go past redline. Take off rpm is down maybe 50 rpm but the takeoff roll is a rapid acceleration and still short (less than 500' even with two on board and full fuel - I live just above sea level), so I can still add another inch of pitch and still get off short. Lastly, why would someone try for a "top speed" prop when you almost never run the airplane at top speed. To my way of thinking, on a clean airplane like a Lightning (or 31BZ), that "top speed" prop will result in a faster and / or more fuel efficient cruise speed at the speed or rpms that you do use for cruise. Also, the Lightning, with the short take off roll and low stall speed, can get in and out of short fields even with a "speed" prop. I normally only use the first 1000' of runway for my airplane here in Virginia at the two airports I have hangars at. Both have a turn off taxiway at 1000'. If it is gusty I might use 1500' to turn around, but 31BZ will float if you get a 3 know gust. The Lightning wing is so much better in this respect that sea level operation out of a 1000' runway (with good approaches) by a proficient pilot should not be a problem. Bottom line: You don't have to settle for a compromise prop or you don't have to pay the dollars for a constant speed in order to get max performance from a Lightning. Blue Skies, Buz ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:04 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Lightning-List: Fuel selector valve I was thinking about using the ANDAIR fuel valve. I wanted one that would allow me to fly with both tanks selected if I wanted to. This one that I found at Aircraft Spruce is exactly what I am looking for, but I quote their comment on the site: "The FS20x4 Fuel Selector is designed for high wing aircraft where it is possible to feed from both tanks simultaneously". Wil this work if properly ported with the Lightning setup? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/fs20tYPE4.php Also, I was looking for the smaller aluminum eyeball air vents, MAN! are they expensive! I have only gone to Wicks and Aircraft Spruce. Is there a better place to find this kind of stuff? Jim! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:58:50 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fuel selector valve Jim, Someone on this list posted some nice photographs a few weeks back, where he had used 4 aluminium vents from the passenger compartment of a Jumbo Jet! By my calculation, that means he has about 296 left over. He might be willing to part with them. Unless of course you have a scrapped Jumbo lying about somewhere yourself? :-) Colin K. OK ---- Jim Langley wrote: > I was thinking about using the ANDAIR fuel valve. I wanted one that would > allow me to fly with both tanks selected if I wanted to. > > This one that I found at Aircraft Spruce is exactly what I am looking for, > but I quote their comment on the site: "The FS20x4 Fuel Selector is designed > for high wing aircraft where it is possible to feed from both tanks > simultaneously". > > Wil this work if properly ported with the Lightning setup? > > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/fs20tYPE4.php > > > Also, I was looking for the smaller aluminum eyeball air vents, MAN! are > they expensive! I have only gone to Wicks and Aircraft Spruce. Is there a > better place to find this kind of stuff? > > Jim! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:46 PM PST US From: nick otterback Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fuel selector valve Jim ... the fuel selector will work if it also has a left and a right. This is because you should run either left or right tanks when below half capacity. With the low wing design the tanks may feed unevenly and when one emptys first the pump will continue to draw air from that tank because it is easier than drawing the fuel and result in fuel starvation. So you should be able to run left or right when getting down on fuel quantity... Nick Jim Langley wrote: I was thinking about using the ANDAIR fuel valve. I wanted one that would allow me to fly with both tanks selected if I wanted to. This one that I found at Aircraft Spruce is exactly what I am looking for, but I quote their comment on the site: "The FS20x4 Fuel Selector is designed for high wing aircraft where it is possible to feed from both tanks simultaneously". Wil this work if properly ported with the Lightning setup? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/fs20tYPE4.php Also, I was looking for the smaller aluminum eyeball air vents, MAN! are they expensive! I have only gone to Wicks and Aircraft Spruce. Is there a better place to find this kind of stuff? Jim! --------------------------------- Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:47 PM PST US From: "Pete" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Fuel selector valve Jim, You can run off both tanks until one goes empty. Then you will just suck air from the empty tank. Engine will run poorly on air alone. Pete _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Langley Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 1:43 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Fuel selector valve I was thinking about using the ANDAIR fuel valve. I wanted one that would allow me to fly with both tanks selected if I wanted to. This one that I found at Aircraft Spruce is exactly what I am looking for, but I quote their comment on the site: "The FS20x4 Fuel Selector is designed for high wing aircraft where it is possible to feed from both tanks simultaneously". Wil this work if properly ported with the Lightning setup? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/fs20tYPE4.php Also, I was looking for the smaller aluminum eyeball air vents, MAN! are they expensive! I have only gone to Wicks and Aircraft Spruce. Is there a better place to find this kind of stuff? Jim! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:13 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Fuel selector valve From: "pequeajim" "You can run off both tanks until one goes empty. Then you will just suck air from the empty tank. Engine will run poorly on air alone" I heard that about aircraft engines... You would think that Jabiru would make an engine that can run on 100LL, AutoGas AND Air! hmmmm.. BTW: I just bought the Jabiru Engine Installation Seminar from HomebuiltHelp.com. I've viewed about half of it so far; very good. My wife wanted to know who that stud was who was explaining the operation of the carb? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114623#114623 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:19 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Fuel selector valve Jim, I've had experience with this. Nick told me to treat it like a Piper and just switch every 30 minutes. The Grand Rapids EFIS also has a built in interval alarm where it'll flash a message until you acknowlege it. Kind of nice. I was flying Rick Bowen's plane and made a touch and go after about 3 hours of flight. I turned and the engine kind of choked down. I thought that I had ran out of fuel on the high wing side. Come to find out it had just burned uneven and the low wing had about 1/3 of a tank and was sucking air in turning flight. Of course I followed the old pilot way of "undo whatever you did if something goes wrong" and in straight and level it was fine. Using the 30 minute interval I flew up to 3.5 hours at a time without any further occurence. Brian W. From: "pequeajim" Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Fuel selector valve "You can run off both tanks until one goes empty. Then you will just suck air from the empty tank. Engine will run poorly on air alone" I heard that about aircraft engines... You would think that Jabiru would make an engine that can run on 100LL, AutoGas AND Air! hmmmm.. BTW: I just bought the Jabiru Engine Installation Seminar from HomebuiltHelp.com. I've viewed about half of it so far; very good. My wife wanted to know who that stud was who was explaining the operation of the carb? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=114623#114623 _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows Live Hotmail. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:18 PM PST US From: Benjamin Smith Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Fuel selector valve On Thursday 24 May 2007, pequeajim wrote: > "You can run off both tanks until one goes empty. Then you will just suck air from the empty tank. Engine will run poorly on air alone" When I went snorkelling, the top end of the snorkel point down towards the water (my head) there was a seal and a floatie ball in a cage. When I was up for air, the ball would rattle in the cage and let the air thru. But when I went under, the ball would rise and plug up the hole so I wouldn't have to spit out the water when I came back up. Seems to me that you could do something similar by putting a floating ball in a cage over the fuel inlet. Add gas, ball floats, fuel flows. Burn gas, fuel drops, ball plugs hole. Any reason why this isn't done in fuel tanks to prevent accidental "sucking of air"? Surely the likelyhood of this clogging in the air (rare, if properly designed) is much less than the likelyhood of sucking air into the motor? // My $0.02 -Ben -- "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:26 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: Lightning-List: Flight test results Well, after doing some preliminary work on my gap seal project I'm starting to see some interesting results. After working out the data for the stall speed tests I can report that 323AL stalled at exactly 44.2 knots with or without gap seals in the clean configuration. This is as I predicted since there's really no slot when the flaps are retracted. We couldn't do the Flaps 30 b/c of how I designed the gap seals. Mine overlapped the flap and would beat against it with flaps down. Sounded like a 727 thrust reverser and we were uncomfortable as to what that might be doing to the airplane. I can tell you that it should go up a couple of knots with flaps all the way down. I can tell you that the cruise speed from Alpha Lima went up by between 4-6 knots true airspeed at 2850 RPM. We ran at about 133 KTAS or about 154 mph. Nick tells me that with a different prop and once they get the jetting right with a prop it'll be a higher cruise speed. The max speed is a little confusing to me. We got slower max speed during the gap seal tests. I can tell you that for some reason the engine was turning about 200 rpm's less per data point than the unmodified condition. The temp was warmer on the unmodified than the modified condition. I can't really explain why the data come out like that. We got a max speed at 145 KTAS or almost 170mph at about a 7,400 foot density altitude, but that was at only 3160 RPM's not the 3300 rpm that the engine is capable of with the right prop pitch setup. Now on to the climb and glide stuff. Hopefully I'll see something interesting there too. Enjoy, Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows Live Hotmail. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:48 PM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Fuel selector valve In a message dated 5/24/2007 7:52:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pilot@benjamindsmith.com writes: When I went snorkelling, the top end of the snorkel point down towards the water (my head) there was a seal and a floatie ball in a cage. When I was up for air, the ball would rattle in the cage and let the air thru. But when I went under, the ball would rise and plug up the hole so I wouldn't have to spit out the water when I came back up. Seems to me that you could do something similar by putting a floating ball in a cage over the fuel inlet. Add gas, ball floats, fuel flows. Burn gas, fuel drops, ball plugs hole. Any reason why this isn't done in fuel tanks to prevent accidental "sucking of air"? Surely the likelyhood of this clogging in the air (rare, if properly designed) is much less than the likelyhood of sucking air into the motor? // My $0.02 -Ben Ben, In my opinion, less is more. The more crap you put in an airplane to fix something that isnt broke, the more chances you have to experience unplaned landings. Adding anything to a fuel system is just asking for the opportunity to be a part of the statistical data that shows 80% of the homebuilt crashes are due to fuel problems. You simply must pay attention to fuel tanks in a Lightning or you will cease flying. Knowing you must switch tanks at some point is actually helpful. Thousands of Pipers do it all the time. Doug Koenigsberg ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:39 PM PST US From: EAFerguson@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Flight test results Brian - and everybody else, Results sound great to me! I was concerned about the possibility of increased stall speed since I'm flying Light Sport, but that isn't a problem. If I can get +2 or 3K at 2750 it would be great, and I'll still be LSA legal. That might just eliminate one fuel stop on my coast to coast record run. It will surely increase my max range and give me more margin on the long legs. So - - What do I have to do to be able to install the gap seals? I will need to get a weight for the materials since I'm bumping the 500 kg limit now. Earl Ferguson N17EF ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.