Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:01 AM - Re: EFIS (Laurie Hoffman)
2. 05:15 AM - Re: LSA compliant vs. not (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
3. 06:50 AM - Re: LSA compliant vs. not (nick otterback)
4. 02:30 PM - Re: LSA compliant vs. not (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
5. 03:10 PM - Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Jabiru USA)
6. 03:24 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Rick Bowen)
7. 03:49 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
8. 03:49 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Bill Hubbard)
9. 03:54 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Bill Hubbard)
10. 03:59 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Bill Hubbard)
11. 04:06 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Bill Hubbard)
12. 06:31 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Jim Langley)
13. 08:04 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Jim Langley)
Message 1
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Buz, Buz, Buz,
Your meagre attempt to bamboozle me by throwing in
that obscure reference to the 'coriolis effect' failed
miserably. Everyone knows that our toilets in this
hemisphere flush in the opposite direction to yours so
obviously the coriolis effects will cancel each other
out.
By constructing a series of models and filling several
pages with various relevant calculations, diagrams,
graphs and sketches I am now able to effectively
challenge your theory.
You may roll right. You may roll left. But to no
avail. We shall use basic aerospace science and
geography, since you have chosen these platforms upon
which to argue your case, to in fact disprove it.
Now just pretend that I am Superman (I do this
regularly but am yet to convince my wife to join in)
with my x-ray vision. This is the aerospace science
part. As I peer down into the ground beneath my
feet(between flights that is) using my infinitely
penetrating vision all the way through the very centre
of the Earth and to the opposite surface of the world
(try to stay with me on this), I will undoubtedly see
something.
It will either be someone in China as is most often
espoused or you in your hometown in the US. This is
the geography part. So if I am actually looking down
at you it is in fact you who is 'down under' and me
who is 'up over'!
I haven't quite worked out yet what our relative
positions would be if we ever do meet somewhere but
hey, lets be realistic about this. What are the
chances of that?
Laurie
--- N1BZRich@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/30/2007 5:39:19 A.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> lozhoffman@yahoo.com writes:
>
> >From where we stand its you guys who must have to
> use
> inverted airfoils.
>
>
>
> HI Laurie,
> Good to hear from you again. Just to be sure I
> understand, if I were to
> fly from here to the "land down under", or you were
> to fly from there to
> here, at some place between the two we would need to
> do a half roll? Does it
> matter which way you roll. Does the coriolis
> effect come into play? Isn't
> aerospace science and geography wonderful.
> Blue Skies,
> Buz
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's
> free at http://www.aol.com.
>
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: LSA compliant vs. not |
I suppose I am preaching to the choir, but I dont have confidence that my
point is being understood.
Trying to be a bit more clear, here is my understanding.
Guys, there is only one absolute in Light Sport. Paperwork that lists the
gross weight at 1320. Thats it.
There are two other very important parameters. Stall speed clean and
Maximum continous. But those are subject to interpretation. As Buz says, "your
milage may vary"
A strict interpretation that some are advocating would mean that IF you
stalled too fast or went too fast ONE TIME you no longer have a Light Sport
plane! That is a bit over the top. Conversely, if you brag to the Feds that
your
Light Sport will stall at 80 and run 200, you will invite some unwanted
interest.
So, the Feds have one point of view; the folks at Lightning must hold a
particular line that does not invite distain for the Feds....but there is
another bit of understanding that I have tried to expound.
IF YOU ARE THE OWNER, IT IS YOUR AIRPLANE!
Unless you are dumb enough to log that your stall speed seems to exceed 40
knots or your top speed exceeds 120 knots, no one will know! You have every
right to claim that even without VG's and with fairings, YOUR Lightning is
compliant, EVEN IF the "factory" says otherwise.
Additionally, HOW DO YOU KNOW WITHOUT TESTING? Despite how nicely
finished and uniform the parts are done, each airplane varies. You simply WILL
NOT
know your airplane's performance until you FLT it. You may have to do what
the CT does and cheat on the stall speed by flexing the flaps down a bit!
I understand that customers want a definitive answer before a purchase. But
they should also understand that Experimental Aviation is defined by a
circle not a point. Certified aircraft must comply with specific regulations
and
are treated as such. I am saying that is a single point. But wether kit
built or stick built, there is a "circle" of operations that is legal for the
Experimental rather then a single point. Yes, there are some absolutes; some
points within the circle. But there is a lot of latitude. The
responsibility for that latitude rests on the BUILDER/OWNER/PILOT not the "factory".
They
simply base their claims on the performance of a prototype.
Bureaucrats will define that circle as small as possible to match their
General Aviation cultural reference. The Ultralight people like to pretend
there is no circle at all. Reality is somewhere between. You may chose to
1)
hide from the Feds 2) smooze the Feds 3) Be sensible and safe, obeying all
the rules you can 4)ignore everything and everybody and just do whatever the
hell you want.
As a "manufacturer' one must smooze the Feds. As an Owner, I suggest # 3.
Play by a reasonable interpretation of the rules.
It is a free country.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 5/31/2007 12:13:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mark.stauffer1@gmail.com writes:
--> Lightning-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer"
<mark.stauffer1@gmail.com>
<snip>
It can be modified with gear leg fairings and wheel pants and the propellor
pitch can be adjusted thereafter, allowing it to exceed LSA speeds, so long
as it does not then exceed the 1320 lbs weight limit, which it was originally
certified with. It can then be flown by a Private Pilot, but not a Light
Sport Pilot. No documentation is required, since none of the modifications are
major.
Later, the fairings and pants could be removed, the propellor pitch
readjusted to original setting and the Light Sport Pilot could then fly it again.
<snip>
No, this is incorrect. The aircraft must stay LSA compliant at ALL TIMES.
>From EAA.org Sport Pilot web site:
Light-Sport Aircraft:
The FAA defines a light-sport aircraft as an aircraft, other than a
helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued
to
meet the following: (goes on to define LSA to include stall speed and maximum
speed in level flight)
"Has continued to meet the following" is the key phrase. I'd be cautious if
you're using "no major modification was performed" as your basis for changing
the configuration of the airplane and the results just so happen allow the
plane go faster. Each MIDO (or FISDO - I always get them mixed up) has their
interpretation of the rules. I was present when our local Amateur Built -
Designated Airworthiness Representative (AB-DAR) was being observed/inspected
performing his duties by his boss at the MIDO. I was absolutely amazed at what
some of his (FAA MIDO guy) interpretations of "major modifications" were. How
about placing tape over a NACA scoop? Extreme interpretation? To me, yes. To
him no, but he's the one that can make your life miserable. Your MIDO's
mileage may vary!
Sure, how does he (the FAA) know if you tested/certified the plane with the
wheel pants on or off or what pitch you had the prop set to but as Doug
stated earlier just be prepared to defend yourself if necessary.
I'm not trying to be the sport pilot Gestapo, this is just a question that
we get quite often, especially at air shows.
I hope this helps.
Mark
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: LSA compliant vs. not |
The key word in all of this is "continuously operated as" this means to be operated
as a Sport pilot eligble aircraft the Expermental Ameture built Lightning
must show in the airframe log book a entry showing the Vso, Vs1, Vx, Vy, Va,
VNE for the aircraft. And the weight and CG location at which they were found.
So if the performance numbers that were found during testing were with in the
parameters of the sport pilot rule and properly documented here than the aircraft
can be operated by a Sport pilot. Again if the aircraft has a "Major change"
and the is put back into phase 1 flight testing the new data should be recorded,
if the new data is out of parameters for sport pilot and than is operated
as such the aircraft can not be brought back to the original parameters because
it was not "continuously operated as" so if you start out with a light sport
compliant lightning and want to go faster with no intention of coming back,
put the mods on document it and go. But do not
expect to go fast in the first palce and come back to the Sport Rule later unless
your performance numbers show that the plane originaly was flown with in the
parameters.....Rember that 2850 is max continuous power for the jab with intermitent
operation exceeding that.....it just depends on how long that internitent
operation is for.....
Nick
N1BZRich@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 5/30/2007 10:42:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cjk129@cox.net
writes:
Is this an interoretation that one could feel confident in presenting to the
FAA?
NO. Colin, the part of your interpretation that I think is wrong and would not
fly with the FAA is:
It can be modified with gear leg fairings and wheel pants and the propellor pitch
can be adjusted thereafter, allowing it to exceed LSA speeds, so long as
it does not then exceed the 1320 lbs weight limit, which it was originally certified
with. It can then be flown by a Private Pilot, but not a Light Sport Pilot.
No documentation is required, since none of the modifications are major.
Later, the fairings and pants could be removed, the propellor pitch readjusted
to original setting and the Light Sport Pilot could then fly it again.
My understanding (others may have different thoughts) is that any airframe or
propeller changes "should" be documented in the log books and the experimental
aircraft placed back into phase one testing until the changes are proven out.
"IF" you do document these changes, you now have prevented the airplane from
flying in the future by a light sport pilot. Again, this is my interpretation.
I would suspect that some will make the changes that you mentioned, but not
document them. Now don't tell the FAA I said that.
And speaking of the FAA, some pilots think of the FAA just like a fire hydrant
thinks of a dog.
Anonymous
---------------------------------
See what's free at AOL.com.
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: LSA compliant vs. not |
Yeah, what he said.
Doug
In a message dated 5/31/2007 9:51:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
vettin74@yahoo.com writes:
The key word in all of this is "continuously operated as" this means to be
operated as a Sport pilot eligble aircraft the Expermental Ameture built
Lightning must show in the airframe log book a entry showing the Vso, Vs1, Vx,
Vy,
Va, VNE for the aircraft. And the weight and CG location at which they were
found. So if the performance numbers that were found during testing were with
in the parameters of the sport pilot rule and properly documented here than
the aircraft can be operated by a Sport pilot. Again if the aircraft has a
"Major change" and the is put back into phase 1 flight testing the new data
should be recorded, if the new data is out of parameters for sport pilot and
than is operated as such the aircraft can not be brought back to the original
parameters because it was not "continuously operated as" so if you start out
with a light sport compliant lightning and want to go faster with no intention
of coming back, put the mods on document it and go. But do not expect to go
fast in the first palce and come back to the Sport Rule later unless your
performance numbers show that the plane originaly was flown with in the
parameters.....Rember that 2850 is max continuous power for the jab with intermitent
operation exceeding that.....it just depends on how long that internitent
operation is for.....
Nick
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 5
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Subject: | Bill Hubbard's First Flight |
Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a
few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few
hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and
made two nice landings.
Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon!
Pete Krotje
Message 6
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Subject: | Bill Hubbard's First Flight |
Hey Bill!
Cool, you look like a very happy camper in the pics!
So, how do you like that painted canopy top?
Need a flight report when 'ya can.....
Rick
N727RB
Do Not Archive
_________________________________________________________________
Dont miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight |
It looks like Joe Cooper started a good thing; I am really thankful that our
canopy is painted on top. We have had temps in the 90's lately and you can
really cook in there!
Linda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
>
> Hey Bill!
> Cool, you look like a very happy camper in the pics!
> So, how do you like that painted canopy top?
> Need a flight report when 'ya can.....
> Rick
> N727RB
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from
> Microsoft
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight |
Thanks Pete!
Your Lightning Builder Assist Program combined with the terrific transitional training
makes for an unbeatable combination to get me flying.
Thanks also to Nick, Mark and Mike for the greatest building instruction and Nick
and Joshua for patience and training.
Many lightninng bolts of joy.
Bill
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Jabiru USA" <info@usjabiru.com>
>Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a
>few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few
>hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and
>made two nice landings.
>
>
>
>Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon!
>
>
>
>Pete Krotje
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at hubster.com
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight |
Yes, many thanks Joe. Great for the folically deprived also.
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS" <lbmathias@verizon.net>
>
>It looks like Joe Cooper started a good thing; I am really thankful that our
>canopy is painted on top. We have had temps in the 90's lately and you can
>really cook in there!
>
>
> Linda
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop@hotmail.com>
>To: <lightning-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:24 PM
>Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
>
>
>>
>> Hey Bill!
>> Cool, you look like a very happy camper in the pics!
>> So, how do you like that painted canopy top?
>> Need a flight report when 'ya can.....
>> Rick
>> N727RB
>>
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Don't miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from
>> Microsoft
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at hubster.com
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight |
Thanks Pete!
Your Lightning Builder Assist Program combined with the great transitional training
is an unbeatable combination.
Thanks also to Nick, Mark and Mike for the great instructional building and thanks
to Nick and Joshua for the patience and training.
Bill
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Jabiru USA" <info@usjabiru.com>
>Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a
>few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few
>hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and
>made two nice landings.
>
>
>
>Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon!
>
>
>
>Pete Krotje
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at hubster.com
Message 11
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Subject: | Bill Hubbard's First Flight |
Thanks Rick.
I was much more relaxed in the picture than the unbelievable buildup to the main
event.
Nick has really been working hard on getting your plane ready to go.
Bill
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop@hotmail.com>
>
>Hey Bill!
>Cool, you look like a very happy camper in the pics!
>So, how do you like that painted canopy top?
>Need a flight report when 'ya can.....
>Rick
>N727RB
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Dont miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at hubster.com
Message 12
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Subject: | Bill Hubbard's First Flight |
Nice looking aircraft Bill!
My build starts this month!
You've got me pumped!
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jabiru USA
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:10 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a
few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few
hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and
made two nice landings.
Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon!
Pete Krotje
Message 13
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Subject: | Bill Hubbard's First Flight |
Bill:
Which prop is it that you have on your Lightning?
Jim!
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jabiru USA
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:10 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a
few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few
hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and
made two nice landings.
Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon!
Pete Krotje
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