Lightning-List Digest Archive

Thu 05/31/07


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:01 AM - Re: EFIS (Laurie Hoffman)
     2. 05:15 AM - Re: LSA compliant vs. not (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
     3. 06:50 AM - Re: LSA compliant vs. not (nick otterback)
     4. 02:30 PM - Re: LSA compliant vs. not (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
     5. 03:10 PM - Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Jabiru USA)
     6. 03:24 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Rick Bowen)
     7. 03:49 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
     8. 03:49 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Bill Hubbard)
     9. 03:54 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Bill Hubbard)
    10. 03:59 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Bill Hubbard)
    11. 04:06 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Bill Hubbard)
    12. 06:31 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Jim Langley)
    13. 08:04 PM - Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight (Jim Langley)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:01:42 AM PST US
    From: Laurie Hoffman <lozhoffman@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: EFIS
    Buz, Buz, Buz, Your meagre attempt to bamboozle me by throwing in that obscure reference to the 'coriolis effect' failed miserably. Everyone knows that our toilets in this hemisphere flush in the opposite direction to yours so obviously the coriolis effects will cancel each other out. By constructing a series of models and filling several pages with various relevant calculations, diagrams, graphs and sketches I am now able to effectively challenge your theory. You may roll right. You may roll left. But to no avail. We shall use basic aerospace science and geography, since you have chosen these platforms upon which to argue your case, to in fact disprove it. Now just pretend that I am Superman (I do this regularly but am yet to convince my wife to join in) with my x-ray vision. This is the aerospace science part. As I peer down into the ground beneath my feet(between flights that is) using my infinitely penetrating vision all the way through the very centre of the Earth and to the opposite surface of the world (try to stay with me on this), I will undoubtedly see something. It will either be someone in China as is most often espoused or you in your hometown in the US. This is the geography part. So if I am actually looking down at you it is in fact you who is 'down under' and me who is 'up over'! I haven't quite worked out yet what our relative positions would be if we ever do meet somewhere but hey, lets be realistic about this. What are the chances of that? Laurie --- N1BZRich@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/30/2007 5:39:19 A.M. Eastern > Daylight Time, > lozhoffman@yahoo.com writes: > > >From where we stand its you guys who must have to > use > inverted airfoils. > > > > HI Laurie, > Good to hear from you again. Just to be sure I > understand, if I were to > fly from here to the "land down under", or you were > to fly from there to > here, at some place between the two we would need to > do a half roll? Does it > matter which way you roll. Does the coriolis > effect come into play? Isn't > aerospace science and geography wonderful. > Blue Skies, > Buz > > > > ************************************** See what's > free at http://www.aol.com. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:15:04 AM PST US
    From: Kayberg@AOL.COM
    Subject: Re: LSA compliant vs. not
    I suppose I am preaching to the choir, but I dont have confidence that my point is being understood. Trying to be a bit more clear, here is my understanding. Guys, there is only one absolute in Light Sport. Paperwork that lists the gross weight at 1320. Thats it. There are two other very important parameters. Stall speed clean and Maximum continous. But those are subject to interpretation. As Buz says, "your milage may vary" A strict interpretation that some are advocating would mean that IF you stalled too fast or went too fast ONE TIME you no longer have a Light Sport plane! That is a bit over the top. Conversely, if you brag to the Feds that your Light Sport will stall at 80 and run 200, you will invite some unwanted interest. So, the Feds have one point of view; the folks at Lightning must hold a particular line that does not invite distain for the Feds....but there is another bit of understanding that I have tried to expound. IF YOU ARE THE OWNER, IT IS YOUR AIRPLANE! Unless you are dumb enough to log that your stall speed seems to exceed 40 knots or your top speed exceeds 120 knots, no one will know! You have every right to claim that even without VG's and with fairings, YOUR Lightning is compliant, EVEN IF the "factory" says otherwise. Additionally, HOW DO YOU KNOW WITHOUT TESTING? Despite how nicely finished and uniform the parts are done, each airplane varies. You simply WILL NOT know your airplane's performance until you FLT it. You may have to do what the CT does and cheat on the stall speed by flexing the flaps down a bit! I understand that customers want a definitive answer before a purchase. But they should also understand that Experimental Aviation is defined by a circle not a point. Certified aircraft must comply with specific regulations and are treated as such. I am saying that is a single point. But wether kit built or stick built, there is a "circle" of operations that is legal for the Experimental rather then a single point. Yes, there are some absolutes; some points within the circle. But there is a lot of latitude. The responsibility for that latitude rests on the BUILDER/OWNER/PILOT not the "factory". They simply base their claims on the performance of a prototype. Bureaucrats will define that circle as small as possible to match their General Aviation cultural reference. The Ultralight people like to pretend there is no circle at all. Reality is somewhere between. You may chose to 1) hide from the Feds 2) smooze the Feds 3) Be sensible and safe, obeying all the rules you can 4)ignore everything and everybody and just do whatever the hell you want. As a "manufacturer' one must smooze the Feds. As an Owner, I suggest # 3. Play by a reasonable interpretation of the rules. It is a free country. Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 5/31/2007 12:13:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mark.stauffer1@gmail.com writes: --> Lightning-List message posted by: "Mark Stauffer" <mark.stauffer1@gmail.com> <snip> It can be modified with gear leg fairings and wheel pants and the propellor pitch can be adjusted thereafter, allowing it to exceed LSA speeds, so long as it does not then exceed the 1320 lbs weight limit, which it was originally certified with. It can then be flown by a Private Pilot, but not a Light Sport Pilot. No documentation is required, since none of the modifications are major. Later, the fairings and pants could be removed, the propellor pitch readjusted to original setting and the Light Sport Pilot could then fly it again. <snip> No, this is incorrect. The aircraft must stay LSA compliant at ALL TIMES. >From EAA.org Sport Pilot web site: Light-Sport Aircraft: The FAA defines a light-sport aircraft as an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following: (goes on to define LSA to include stall speed and maximum speed in level flight) "Has continued to meet the following" is the key phrase. I'd be cautious if you're using "no major modification was performed" as your basis for changing the configuration of the airplane and the results just so happen allow the plane go faster. Each MIDO (or FISDO - I always get them mixed up) has their interpretation of the rules. I was present when our local Amateur Built - Designated Airworthiness Representative (AB-DAR) was being observed/inspected performing his duties by his boss at the MIDO. I was absolutely amazed at what some of his (FAA MIDO guy) interpretations of "major modifications" were. How about placing tape over a NACA scoop? Extreme interpretation? To me, yes. To him no, but he's the one that can make your life miserable. Your MIDO's mileage may vary! Sure, how does he (the FAA) know if you tested/certified the plane with the wheel pants on or off or what pitch you had the prop set to but as Doug stated earlier just be prepared to defend yourself if necessary. I'm not trying to be the sport pilot Gestapo, this is just a question that we get quite often, especially at air shows. I hope this helps. Mark ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:50:24 AM PST US
    From: nick otterback <vettin74@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: LSA compliant vs. not
    The key word in all of this is "continuously operated as" this means to be operated as a Sport pilot eligble aircraft the Expermental Ameture built Lightning must show in the airframe log book a entry showing the Vso, Vs1, Vx, Vy, Va, VNE for the aircraft. And the weight and CG location at which they were found. So if the performance numbers that were found during testing were with in the parameters of the sport pilot rule and properly documented here than the aircraft can be operated by a Sport pilot. Again if the aircraft has a "Major change" and the is put back into phase 1 flight testing the new data should be recorded, if the new data is out of parameters for sport pilot and than is operated as such the aircraft can not be brought back to the original parameters because it was not "continuously operated as" so if you start out with a light sport compliant lightning and want to go faster with no intention of coming back, put the mods on document it and go. But do not expect to go fast in the first palce and come back to the Sport Rule later unless your performance numbers show that the plane originaly was flown with in the parameters.....Rember that 2850 is max continuous power for the jab with intermitent operation exceeding that.....it just depends on how long that internitent operation is for..... Nick N1BZRich@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 5/30/2007 10:42:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cjk129@cox.net writes: Is this an interoretation that one could feel confident in presenting to the FAA? NO. Colin, the part of your interpretation that I think is wrong and would not fly with the FAA is: It can be modified with gear leg fairings and wheel pants and the propellor pitch can be adjusted thereafter, allowing it to exceed LSA speeds, so long as it does not then exceed the 1320 lbs weight limit, which it was originally certified with. It can then be flown by a Private Pilot, but not a Light Sport Pilot. No documentation is required, since none of the modifications are major. Later, the fairings and pants could be removed, the propellor pitch readjusted to original setting and the Light Sport Pilot could then fly it again. My understanding (others may have different thoughts) is that any airframe or propeller changes "should" be documented in the log books and the experimental aircraft placed back into phase one testing until the changes are proven out. "IF" you do document these changes, you now have prevented the airplane from flying in the future by a light sport pilot. Again, this is my interpretation. I would suspect that some will make the changes that you mentioned, but not document them. Now don't tell the FAA I said that. And speaking of the FAA, some pilots think of the FAA just like a fire hydrant thinks of a dog. Anonymous --------------------------------- See what's free at AOL.com. --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.


    Message 4


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    Time: 02:30:54 PM PST US
    From: Kayberg@AOL.COM
    Subject: Re: LSA compliant vs. not
    Yeah, what he said. Doug In a message dated 5/31/2007 9:51:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vettin74@yahoo.com writes: The key word in all of this is "continuously operated as" this means to be operated as a Sport pilot eligble aircraft the Expermental Ameture built Lightning must show in the airframe log book a entry showing the Vso, Vs1, Vx, Vy, Va, VNE for the aircraft. And the weight and CG location at which they were found. So if the performance numbers that were found during testing were with in the parameters of the sport pilot rule and properly documented here than the aircraft can be operated by a Sport pilot. Again if the aircraft has a "Major change" and the is put back into phase 1 flight testing the new data should be recorded, if the new data is out of parameters for sport pilot and than is operated as such the aircraft can not be brought back to the original parameters because it was not "continuously operated as" so if you start out with a light sport compliant lightning and want to go faster with no intention of coming back, put the mods on document it and go. But do not expect to go fast in the first palce and come back to the Sport Rule later unless your performance numbers show that the plane originaly was flown with in the parameters.....Rember that 2850 is max continuous power for the jab with intermitent operation exceeding that.....it just depends on how long that internitent operation is for..... Nick ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:10:54 PM PST US
    From: "Jabiru USA" <info@usjabiru.com>
    Subject: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
    Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and made two nice landings. Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon! Pete Krotje


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:24:43 PM PST US
    From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
    Hey Bill! Cool, you look like a very happy camper in the pics! So, how do you like that painted canopy top? Need a flight report when 'ya can..... Rick N727RB Do Not Archive _________________________________________________________________ Dont miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:49:03 PM PST US
    From: "JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS" <lbmathias@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
    It looks like Joe Cooper started a good thing; I am really thankful that our canopy is painted on top. We have had temps in the 90's lately and you can really cook in there! Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop@hotmail.com> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:24 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Bill Hubbard's First Flight > > Hey Bill! > Cool, you look like a very happy camper in the pics! > So, how do you like that painted canopy top? > Need a flight report when 'ya can..... > Rick > N727RB > > Do Not Archive > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from > Microsoft > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:49:37 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Hubbard" <bill@hubster.com>
    Subject: Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
    Thanks Pete! Your Lightning Builder Assist Program combined with the terrific transitional training makes for an unbeatable combination to get me flying. Thanks also to Nick, Mark and Mike for the greatest building instruction and Nick and Joshua for patience and training. Many lightninng bolts of joy. Bill ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Jabiru USA" <info@usjabiru.com> >Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a >few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few >hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and >made two nice landings. > > > >Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon! > > > >Pete Krotje > > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at hubster.com


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:54:14 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Hubbard" <bill@hubster.com>
    Subject: Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
    Yes, many thanks Joe. Great for the folically deprived also. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS" <lbmathias@verizon.net> > >It looks like Joe Cooper started a good thing; I am really thankful that our >canopy is painted on top. We have had temps in the 90's lately and you can >really cook in there! > > > Linda >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop@hotmail.com> >To: <lightning-list@matronics.com> >Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:24 PM >Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Bill Hubbard's First Flight > > >> >> Hey Bill! >> Cool, you look like a very happy camper in the pics! >> So, how do you like that painted canopy top? >> Need a flight report when 'ya can..... >> Rick >> N727RB >> >> Do Not Archive >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Don't miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from >> Microsoft >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at hubster.com


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:59:36 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Hubbard" <bill@hubster.com>
    Subject: Re: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
    Thanks Pete! Your Lightning Builder Assist Program combined with the great transitional training is an unbeatable combination. Thanks also to Nick, Mark and Mike for the great instructional building and thanks to Nick and Joshua for the patience and training. Bill ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Jabiru USA" <info@usjabiru.com> >Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a >few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few >hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and >made two nice landings. > > > >Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon! > > > >Pete Krotje > > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at hubster.com


    Message 11


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    Time: 04:06:12 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Hubbard" <bill@hubster.com>
    Subject: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
    Thanks Rick. I was much more relaxed in the picture than the unbelievable buildup to the main event. Nick has really been working hard on getting your plane ready to go. Bill ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Rick Bowen" <rollnloop@hotmail.com> > >Hey Bill! >Cool, you look like a very happy camper in the pics! >So, how do you like that painted canopy top? >Need a flight report when 'ya can..... >Rick >N727RB > >Do Not Archive > >_________________________________________________________________ >Dont miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at hubster.com


    Message 12


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    Time: 06:31:07 PM PST US
    From: "Jim Langley" <pequeajim@gmail.com>
    Subject: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
    Nice looking aircraft Bill! My build starts this month! You've got me pumped! _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jabiru USA Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:10 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Bill Hubbard's First Flight Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and made two nice landings. Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon! Pete Krotje


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:04:21 PM PST US
    From: "Jim Langley" <pequeajim@gmail.com>
    Subject: Bill Hubbard's First Flight
    Bill: Which prop is it that you have on your Lightning? Jim! _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jabiru USA Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:10 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Bill Hubbard's First Flight Bill flew his Lightning for the first time this afternoon. I've attached a few photos showing the "Lightning grin". Nick had flown the plane for a few hours to make sure it was sorted out right. Bill flew for a half hour and made two nice landings. Perhaps Bill will give us his account soon! Pete Krotje




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