Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:48 AM - a picture for you (Peter and Jan Disher)
2. 04:10 AM - Re: N730AL Panel (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
3. 04:23 AM - Re: Sensenich Props (Scotty)
4. 04:37 AM - Re: N730AL Panel (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
5. 04:52 AM - Re: N730AL Panel (Jim Langley)
6. 04:56 AM - Re: N730AL Panel (Jim Langley)
7. 07:02 AM - Minimal number of instruments. (Jim Langley)
8. 07:20 AM - Re: N730AL Panel (Scotty)
9. 07:41 AM - Re: Minimal number of instruments. (Brian Whittingham)
10. 12:02 PM - Re: Minimal number of instruments. (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
11. 03:53 PM - Re: Minimal number of instruments. (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
12. 08:55 PM - Re: N730AL Panel (Mark Stauffer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | a picture for you |
Hi Jim ,
Peter Disher Here.
I also had thoughts of using MGL Avionics Enigma for all, EFIS, GPS and
EMS. as attached.
Having the three units I am of the belief that it would be exelent
redundancy, for they can all be swaped around.
Peter Disher
Australia
You have been sent 1 picture.
IMG_2536.JPG
These pictures were sent with Picasa, from Google.
Try it out here: http://picasa.google.com/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: N730AL Panel |
N730AL PanelJim,
It looks like you have some unnecessary instruments included; with
the EFIS, you don't need heading indicator or VSI even for backup IFR.
You will need a mag compass which you can mount on top of the glare
shield. There are also 3 items which look like autopilot but I can't
tell what they all are; you may also have unnecessary redundancy there.
Be sure and account for the 2 inches to bend under; my panel used the
whole area and caused problems in several ways, including how the panel
fit the hoop and with the canopy closure.
Linda
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Langley
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:20 AM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: N730AL Panel
Actually, the dimensions are right from Arion, but I did forget that
the bottom 2" bends over. Thanks for reminding me.
Some day, I would like to fly IFR.
By the way, the .dxf was used and imported in to e-panel builder
www.epanelbuilder.com
That is what I am using to layout some ideas.
Here's another version.
Brian: Thanks for the idea. I am still not sure how I will arrange
this to add a turn and slip. Some of the gages will probably go. The
dual Enigmas for function as engine monitors, GPS maps and horizon, so
I'm not sure what all I will be ending up with.
Jim!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Stauffer
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 11:51 PM
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: N730AL Panel
Jim,
The proportions of your panel look a little off. The panel looks a
little tall to me. If you're using measurements given to you by Nick,
please remember that the bottom 2" of the panel are bent forward 90
degrees to add stiffness to the panel. If you don't take this into
account you will have issues in the future, mainly your shins will hate
you!
Are you planning on flying IFR??
Hope this helps.
Mark
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Langley
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 10:19 PM
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Subject: Lightning-List: N730AL Panel
I'm working on my panel concepts. Right now I have three different
rough concepts and will probably change it around a dozen times before I
settle for my final design.
Thought I would send it out for some evaluation and comments. You can
be brutal if you need to as I don' take things personal.
Jim! <<...>>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Sensenich Props |
Thanks.
I saw the diameter and pitch things listed, but the letters threw me off. I guess
I just wanted a picture of the two types of prop. Scimitars are prettier,
to me, but 56 inches of pitch is 56 inches of pitch, and then we get into price.
Scotty
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116317#116317
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| Subject: | Re: N730AL Panel |
In a message dated 6/3/2007 11:21:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pequeajim@gmail.com writes:
I=99m working on my panel concepts. Right now I have three different
rough
concepts and will probably change it around a dozen times before I settle f
or
my final design.
Thought I would send it out for some evaluation and comments. You can be
brutal if you need to as I don=99 take things personal.
Jim! <<...>>
Jim, you would seem to have a vacuum system to drive a Directional Gyro and
an Artificial Horizon. Not only are the units heavy and unnecessary but th
e
plumbing is both bulky and expensive. You need a vacuum pump, filter,
modulator and some annoying plumbing to make them work. It would be easy t
o spend
over $3,000 and simply have alot of clutter to cuss at.
If a total electrical failure is your concern for flight instruments, I
would just get one of the GPS handhelds that will give you roll, and pitch
info.
You can get a simply ball for yaw as other suggested. You are not going t
o
fly heavy IFR in a Lighning anyway.
Notsure if you are IFR rated currently, but if you are, try someone's 496
or 396 and fly a few approaches with it or perhaps some unusual attitudes.
It seems to me you have a panel that will be very annoying to keep tweeked
and very distracting to fly.
I flew on a US Air Boeing 737 recently that had much less panel!!!
Doug Koenigsberg
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
.
Message 5
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Good point with mounting the compass on top of the glare shield. I was
going to use a vertical card compass? The backup attitude indicator is
electric. You may be mistaking the clock for an autopilot, and there is one
AP shown on the panel.
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOSEPH
MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: N730AL Panel
Jim,
It looks like you have some unnecessary instruments included; with the
EFIS, you don't need heading indicator or VSI even for backup IFR. You will
need a mag compass which you can mount on top of the glare shield. There
are also 3 items which look like autopilot but I can't tell what they all
are; you may also have unnecessary redundancy there. Be sure and account
for the 2 inches to bend under; my panel used the whole area and caused
problems in several ways, including how the panel fit the hoop and with the
canopy closure.
Linda
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Langley <mailto:pequeajim@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:20 AM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: N730AL Panel
Actually, the dimensions are right from Arion, but I did forget that the
bottom 2" bends over. Thanks for reminding me.
Some day, I would like to fly IFR.
By the way, the .dxf was used and imported in to e-panel builder
www.epanelbuilder.com
That is what I am using to layout some ideas.
Here's another version.
Brian: Thanks for the idea. I am still not sure how I will arrange this to
add a turn and slip. Some of the gages will probably go. The dual Enigmas
for function as engine monitors, GPS maps and horizon, so I'm not sure what
all I will be ending up with.
Jim!
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Stauffer
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 11:51 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: N730AL Panel
Jim,
The proportions of your panel look a little off. The panel looks a little
tall to me. If you're using measurements given to you by Nick, please
remember that the bottom 2" of the panel are bent forward 90 degrees to add
stiffness to the panel. If you don't take this into account you will have
issues in the future, mainly your shins will hate you!
Are you planning on flying IFR??
Hope this helps.
Mark
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Langley
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 10:19 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: N730AL Panel
I'm working on my panel concepts. Right now I have three different rough
concepts and will probably change it around a dozen times before I settle
for my final design.
Thought I would send it out for some evaluation and comments. You can be
brutal if you need to as I don' take things personal.
Jim! <<...>>
Message 6
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The AI is electric and what you see as the DG is a vertical card compass.
It really is smaller than what is shown, but I did not have a pic at the
time that I was playing around with the layout. That's why there is no
vacuum gage on the panel.
Thanks
Jim!
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Kayberg@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: N730AL Panel
In a message dated 6/3/2007 11:21:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pequeajim@gmail.com writes:
I'm working on my panel concepts. Right now I have three different rough
concepts and will probably change it around a dozen times before I settle
for my final design.
Thought I would send it out for some evaluation and comments. You can be
brutal if you need to as I don' take things personal.
Jim! <<...>>
Jim, you would seem to have a vacuum system to drive a Directional Gyro and
an Artificial Horizon. Not only are the units heavy and unnecessary but the
plumbing is both bulky and expensive. You need a vacuum pump, filter,
modulator and some annoying plumbing to make them work. It would be easy to
spend over $3,000 and simply have alot of clutter to cuss at.
If a total electrical failure is your concern for flight instruments, I
would just get one of the GPS handhelds that will give you roll, and pitch
info. You can get a simply ball for yaw as other suggested. You are not
going to fly heavy IFR in a Lighning anyway.
Notsure if you are IFR rated currently, but if you are, try someone's 496
or 396 and fly a few approaches with it or perhaps some unusual attitudes.
It seems to me you have a panel that will be very annoying to keep tweeked
and very distracting to fly.
I flew on a US Air Boeing 737 recently that had much less panel!!!
Doug Koenigsberg
_____
See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Minimal number of instruments. |
Some points to ponder=85
In designing this panel, I would like to install two MFDs. I thought that
minimally I would maintain as a backup, airspeed, and AI, compass, and
altimeter.
If I go with the Enigma, they can communicate with each other, yet are
independent. The only thing that would knock them both out would be a powe
r
failure, and even then, they are battery backed up.
So, considering those things, what additionally would make sense for IFR
flight?
Linda, I noticed that you have an AI, AS and Altimeter? There also looks t
o
be a vacuum gage on the left side of the panel? Do you fly your Lightning
IFR?
Jim!
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: N730AL Panel |
Jim,
Gadgets are great fun, but in a cockpit, simplicity is good. Two screens plus
backup airspeed and needle ball, to tell me where I am, what the engine is doing,
and get me through a deck to an ILS approach if absolutely necessary, is about
all I would want. In other words, I do not want to be tempted to fly IFR
in a very small single engine plane.
Design and beauty are a part of the airplane mystique. I love the lines of the
Lightning and the various paint schemes that are emerging from the builders.
I appreciate the speed that the power plant, wing, and fuselage combination are
giving us as builders. However, the real joy of the plane is that, all of
this function and beauty are available at a semi reasonable price. Dont tell
Pete hell raise the price.
The Toxo has good lines (not quite as good as the Lightning), and a great panel.
I have been a devote of the Toxo for a while, but the numbers, performance
and price do not come close to the Lightning, plus they are not even in production
yet. The panel is very attractive (to me), and I mentioned this to Nick.
He explained that beauty costs more weight, less strength, and more money. If
I remember correctly, Nick said the panel in a Lightning contributes to the structural
strength of the cockpit. Strength is far more important in an airplane
than beauty, especially when I strap my buns in it. Here is a picture of
the Toxo panel, if it gives you any ideas.
--------
Old pilots remember when flying was dangerous and sex was safe.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=116353#116353
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/toxo_cockpit_110.jpg
Message 9
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| Subject: | Minimal number of instruments. |
Jim,
Another thing that I have found useful and found is recommended in a lot
of magazines like Flight Training, is after you get your plane and get used
to it, fly with an instructor and then make sure that all your instruments
are covered up (leaving some for the CFI to see, but blocked from your site)
Try to set important numbers by sight and feeling in the seat of your
pants. Get used to the sound the engine makes with power at idle and a
descent rate of 500 feet per minute. Get used to the pitch attitudes for
both 500 fpm descent and climbs. Practice full pattern approaches like
this. See what a power at idle best glide looks like and the sound the air
makes on the plane at that speed. Obviously the CFI with the instruments is
for safety. This will ensure that in any scenario you're flying the
airplane "by the numbers." It'll also make you more proficient in your
everyday flying with full instruments as well. You never know what may
happen and when you may need it. Brian W.
From: "Jim Langley" <pequeajim@gmail.com>
Subject: Lightning-List: Minimal number of instruments.
Some points to ponder
In designing this panel, I would like to install two MFDs. I thought that
minimally I would maintain as a backup, airspeed, and AI, compass, and
altimeter.
If I go with the Enigma, they can communicate with each other, yet are
independent. The only thing that would knock them both out would be a power
failure, and even then, they are battery backed up.
So, considering those things, what additionally would make sense for IFR
flight?
Linda, I noticed that you have an AI, AS and Altimeter? There also looks to
be a vacuum gage on the left side of the panel? Do you fly your Lightning
IFR?
Jim!
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Minimal number of instruments. |
Jim,
I plan to fly IFR when I am very comfortable with all the Chelton
system will do. Yes, the backup instruments are AI, AS, and altimeter
in case of total electrical failure. The attitude indicatator is vacuum
driven with a dry pump; we also have a vertical card compass which will
be mounted on top of the glareshield when we install it. Because the
Chelton PFD/MFD's was having problems with calibration until May 31, the
EIS had to be taped on top of the panel preventing the glareshield from
being installed. That will be changed out soon; the EIS will go behind
the panel with blind mounting. We do not have a clock because there
are timers in the Chelton system.
Linda
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Langley
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: Minimal number of instruments.
Some points to ponder=85
In designing this panel, I would like to install two MFDs. I thought
that minimally I would maintain as a backup, airspeed, and AI, compass,
and altimeter.
If I go with the Enigma, they can communicate with each other, yet are
independent. The only thing that would knock them both out would be a
power failure, and even then, they are battery backed up.
So, considering those things, what additionally would make sense for
IFR flight?
Linda, I noticed that you have an AI, AS and Altimeter? There also
looks to be a vacuum gage on the left side of the panel? Do you fly
your Lightning IFR?
Jim!
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Minimal number of instruments. |
Jim,
One thing I forgot to mention; if you are going to fly IFR, you will
also need a heated pitot tube. The 20-amp alternator is a bit of a
limitation so you need to plan carefully for the electrical
requirements.
Check on the Gretz heated pitot tube; it worked well for us and
needs less amperage.
Linda
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Langley
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: Minimal number of instruments.
Some points to ponder=85
In designing this panel, I would like to install two MFDs. I thought
that minimally I would maintain as a backup, airspeed, and AI, compass,
and altimeter.
If I go with the Enigma, they can communicate with each other, yet are
independent. The only thing that would knock them both out would be a
power failure, and even then, they are battery backed up.
So, considering those things, what additionally would make sense for
IFR flight?
Linda, I noticed that you have an AI, AS and Altimeter? There also
looks to be a vacuum gage on the left side of the panel? Do you fly
your Lightning IFR?
Jim!
Message 12
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Jim,
A couple more points to ponder while in the design phase. The depth
between
the panel and the forward bulkhead is approximately 11.75=94 and can be
bumped
out to 12=94 if necessary. Any more than that and you start running into
other
issues.
Also, the canopy tip up arms will come into play. With the GRT Sport
EFIS
systems we have about =BC=94 clearance between the arm and the back of
the
instrument case. You can move the arms slightly right or left but again
only
a little because it will cause other problems. Double check the
dimensions
of your particular EFIS unit to make sure the tip up arms won=92t be a
factor.
Also look at what type of connector you have and where it=92s located.
Again
with the GRT Sports we have to be careful where we place the unit in the
panel because of the 25 pin D-sub connector that comes out of the back
of
the case. If we place the unit too far outboard then the connector
interferes with the tip up arms.
One last thing (for now at least!) to consider. Ask Ryan or Nick for the
dimensions of the instrument panel bulkhead. While you are able to trim
this
bulkhead you should take it into consideration while designing your
panel.
As a general rule we do not place anything along the top inch or so of
the
panel.
I=92d hate for you to invest a lot of money in a system that may or may
not
fit well.
Hope this is helpful to you.
Mark
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Langley
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 10:19 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: N730AL Panel
I=92m working on my panel concepts. Right now I have three different
rough
concepts and will probably change it around a dozen times before I
settle
for my final design.
Thought I would send it out for some evaluation and comments. You can
be
brutal if you need to as I don=92 take things personal.
Jim! <<...>>
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