---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/12/07: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:08 AM - Re: Setting the wing incidence on the Lightning (Jerry Van Heeswyk) 2. 06:13 AM - Re: Going to Oshkosh? (Jerry Van Heeswyk) 3. 06:30 AM - R/C models and Lightnings... (Rick Bowen) 4. 07:04 AM - Pricing (cbaron66) 5. 07:19 AM - Re: Pricing (Brian Whittingham) 6. 07:47 AM - Re: Pricing (Rick Bowen) 7. 08:12 AM - Re: Pricing (Hugh Sontag) 8. 08:13 AM - Re: Pricing (Pete) 9. 08:18 AM - Re: Pricing (cbaron66) 10. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Pricing (Pete) 11. 09:15 AM - Re: Pricing (Paul Mitchell) 12. 09:16 AM - Re: Pricing (cbaron66) 13. 11:16 AM - Re: Off to build! (Bob Haas) 14. 11:34 AM - Re: Off to build! (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 15. 12:05 PM - Re: Off to build! (Pete) 16. 02:30 PM - From Podunk TN (nick otterback) 17. 04:41 PM - Re: Off to build! (Kayberg@aol.com) 18. 07:41 PM - Re: Off to build! (pequeajim) 19. 07:51 PM - Re: Re: Off to build! (Brian Whittingham) 20. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: Pricing (Brian Whittingham) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:37 AM PST US From: "Jerry Van Heeswyk" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Setting the wing incidence on the Lightning Jim, I, too, am an ex-model builder. I started on ten-cent Comet stick and tissue kits when I was a Cub Scout, and progressed up through Giant R/C models as building skills and budget permitted. I ended up writing a few articles for the modeling mags, and selling plans for 1/4 - 1/2 size aircraft. The aerodynamics are the same - the parts are just a little smaller. In fact, the incidence meter I built was a scaled up version of the ones I used on model aircraft. It only took an hour to throw it together in the shop. It was not built to be beautiful or to last a hundred years. I have it out on loan, or I would include a photo. I attached a couple photos of large scale model hombuilts, in case you are interested. Regards, Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Langley To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 8:14 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Setting the wing incidence on the Lightning BUz: I used the same type of tool when setting the incidence on my giant scale RC airplanes! It was made out of wood and each stem being a long threaded rod with a nut threaded in to the bottom that touches the wing and a "T" nut in the board. Then I could adjust the rods to suit whatever airfoil I was setting up. Of course the wing cords where 40-45% of the size of the Lightning. Slap a digital level on top and it worked like a charm. Jim! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:00 PM To: lightning-list@matronics.com Subject: Lightning-List: Setting the wing incidence on the Lightning Jerry, One other comment I intended to make and it had to do with your statement: "I would recommend paying close attention to setting the wing and stab incidence." Wow, you hit another home run with that statement - so very true. And it was also kind of prophetic. Just yesterday morning before I flew back to Virginia, Nick and I designed a simple tool to do just that. Nick or Mark will fabricate the tool for their use before the next Lightning gets its wing incidence set. Before now they were just lining the wing up with the wing outline on the fuselage. Sometimes it was right, but sometimes it would be slightly off resulting in a roll one way or the other. The recommended fix was to lower the flap slightly on the heavy wing side. With this new tool it should be easier and much more accurate to set the incidence. What is the tool? Imagine an "L" shaped tool with the long part of the "L" being about as long as the cord of the wing. Then along the long part of the "L" you insert (weld or glue) two fixed points that rest on the wing and define the incidence of the wing. Don't laugh, but a rough drawing is below. Now, level the fuselage and then place a level on the long part of the "L" and adjust until it is level and then set the wing at that incidence. Be sure to place the tool at the same point on each wing (such as 1 foot out from the butt) when using the tool. This is a similar method I used when setting the incidence on the Pitts I built many years ago. Blue Skies, Buz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:29 AM PST US From: "Jerry Van Heeswyk" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Going to Oshkosh? Thanks for the tip on the wing tips, Buz. It is too late to attach with nut plates, but I can leave an extra couple feet of wiring. I have heard discussion of a longer wing, but didn't realize it was envisioned to be an extension, rather than a complete wing. Seems like a good plan, but if I can get that stall speed down, I won't worry about it. Thanks again, Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: N1BZRich@aol.com To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Going to Oshkosh? Jerry, Good write up on your Lightning light sport project and your experiences to date. I have also seen their build manual (helped edit it) and it looked great. My hat is off to Nick for doing such a great job on it. As you said, lots of photos to really explain certain processes. Overall one of the best build manuals I have seen. You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned keeping your airplane light. That will be one of the keys to getting the clean stall to be below 45 knots. When flown at 1320 gross the current demo Lightning is pretty close to that, but would need to use VGs to insure a margin of error. One suggestion, unless you really want to use the VGs, don't glass your current wing tips in place. Make them removable with nut plates and add some extra length of wire that goes to your tip lights/strobes. You can probably guess why I am recommending this. If you remember I mentioned walking around at Sun-N-Fun with Pete and Phil (their fiberglass guy from Wisconsin) and we were looking at various wing tip extensions. Phil has them designed now (Nick gave me a drawing of them and they look great) and they may be available sometime after Oshkosh. They might even have a set on display at Oshkosh. Of course, Nick will flight test them on the prototype before the design is frozen and before they will be released to kit builders, but I anticipate only good things. Yes, you might lose a few knots at low altitude, and a few degrees per second of roll rate, but the benefits will be great for the Light Sport Lightning. If the roll rate is compromised too much Nick and I already have an idea in mind to increase the aileron span somewhat. The extensions will add about 5 square feet to each wing and that will certainly bring the clean stall to well below 45 knots. Additional benefits would be to add some climb performance, increased glide ratio, and possibly even some additional speed at high altitudes. Blue Skies, Buz ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:50 AM PST US From: "Rick Bowen" Subject: Lightning-List: R/C models and Lightnings... It is funny how many people in the home built world(and Lightnings in particular) are also into R/C stuff. Nick is an avid R/C flier, along with several other guys at Shelbyville.Have also talked to a few other Lightning builders who build/fly R/C planes. I have "played around " with R/C models for over 30 years, just about all phases including electrics, heli's and sailplanes. My favorites overall are the large, multi-function sailplanes....it is really cool to thermal a 14 ft wing span sailplane to almost a speck for an hour or more!! Nice pics Jerry, I'm sure your Lightning is going to be sharp after seeing what you can do with R/C builds!! Rick N727RB _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:51 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Pricing From: "cbaron66" Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me the finished/flying price of this aircraft has gone up more than twenty grand since the pre-production promises a few years back. Were the guesses that far off when they started? Also, in the beginning, I don't recall any mention of having to spend thousands of dollars per week in podunk tenn. so someone can show you the "right way" to assemble your kit. This is not anything against the plane its self- it seems like a great plane that performs as per design. It's just that I felt I might be able to afford this plane based on the initial numbers that were batted around- now it looks like it will have to be something made out of pop can material. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123388#123388 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:17 AM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Pricing I don't think that the kit has went up 20%. I can only recall one slight cost raise. This follows the standard increase along with all other aircraft. There have also been a lot of testing and design implementations from the original airplane. It has changed in many ways since the prototype. 3 years ago when the prototype was being shown in pieces at shows the cost of gas wasn't $3/gallon either. Like everything else, over time I'm sure the price will go up a little. I think that you'll find that you can finish it out as cheap or cheaper than most SLSA's and most kitplanes. The performance is great for what you pay as well! Also, I'm not sure that Podunk, TN is where they are based. True, they are based out of a small, single runway 5,500 X 100' field, but Shelbyville is just outside of Nashville airspace, and I wouldn't refer to Nashville as podunk. Maybe some of us that live there were a little podunk, but there's a reason for being based there. Long runway for testing planes, available space, friendly airport staff, the want for them to be there, and most importantly, it's almost exactly equadistant between Oskosh and Sun-N-Fun. Couple that with the fact that approximately 80% of the U.S. population is within 700 miles of the airport. This means an easy day flight back for most people in their Lightnings. Brian W. From: "cbaron66" Subject: Lightning-List: Pricing Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me the finished/flying price of this aircraft has gone up more than twenty grand since the pre-production promises a few years back. Were the guesses that far off when they started? Also, in the beginning, I don't recall any mention of having to spend thousands of dollars per week in podunk tenn. so someone can show you the "right way" to assemble your kit. This is not anything against the plane its self- it seems like a great plane that performs as per design. It's just that I felt I might be able to afford this plane based on the initial numbers that were batted around- now it looks like it will have to be something made out of pop can material. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123388#123388 _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:53 AM PST US From: "Rick Bowen" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Pricing I do not believe the price has went up "twenty grand". As far as I know, there has been only one price increase in engine and airframe(after the initial special price on the first 5 sold)since the Lightning was put into production. No one is holding a gun to your head to take the" builders assistance" program.....I did take it, and it saved me what probably would have been at least a year+ in constuction time. Not to mention, ANY, and I mean ANY questions that come up while building....you get answered IMMEDIATLY, and probably even shown how to do it! Try that at home! As far as podunk,TN....well to each his own. I am glad that Arion is located in a central location.And, just outside of Nashville was really convenient in many ways. What it boils down to is "how much" FREE do you have??? FREE time, or not-so-FREE money? My time is VERY valuable to me...I spend most of it making the $$ I need for my living expenses and toys.................... If you like the Lightning, find a way to get it---you can build it wherever or however you see fit. Also, just a pet peeve...be nice to have a name to reply to..... Rick N727RB _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:07 AM PST US From: Hugh Sontag Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Pricing If you're looking for affordable fun in the air, check out the Titan Tornado. A well-equipped airplane is about half of what a Lightning costs. There's an active email list at this URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Titanaircraft/ You'll cruise at 110 mph instead of 160+, but the miles you fly won't cost as much, and the plane is great fun to fly. I flew my Tornado to Sun and Fun from Wisconsin, about 1300 miles, and had a great time doing it. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to fly a Lightning, but I haven't been able to justify the cost as yet. Hugh Sontag > >Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me the finished/flying >price of this aircraft has gone up more than twenty grand since the >pre-production promises a few years back. Were the guesses that far >off when they started? Also, in the beginning, I don't recall any >mention of having to spend thousands of dollars per week in podunk >tenn. so someone can show you the "right way" to assemble your kit. >This is not anything against the plane its self- it seems like a >great plane that performs as per design. It's just that I felt I >might be able to afford this plane based on the initial numbers that >were batted around- now it looks like it will have to be something >made out of pop can material. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123388#123388 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:12 AM PST US From: "Pete" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Pricing I've got to address this one. It is really hard to understand where this guy (whoever he is - unsigned emails really irk me) is coming from. We did have a price increase of $4,000 on the aircraft kit and the Jabiru engine has increased $1,000. Everything else has remained the same. If you build the plane yourself and don't put many instruments into it you can still build a Lightning in 400 hours or so for about $55,000. Most builders put in a more expensive interior and lots of avionics and will spend $70,000 to build in their garage. Those who are not as cosmopolitan and refined as this poster and choose to come to Podunk, TN (better known as Shelbyville - capital of the Tennessee walking horse) will spend an additional $9,600 to help get his airplane built in three weeks. Add about $5,000 for a professional paint job and the total then comes to about $85,000 for a glass cockpit equipped great looking aircraft. These numbers are little different from our first price estimates posted on www.flylightning.net a year and a half ago. In any kit built aircraft the price always reflects the time involved. You can build a Sonex or Zenith for less money but 4 or 5 times the time involved or a Lightning for much less time but more money. I don't think we've mislead anyone on the costs - at least we try not to do so. Pete Krotje Arion Aircraft, LLC -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cbaron66 Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 9:04 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Pricing Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me the finished/flying price of this aircraft has gone up more than twenty grand since the pre-production promises a few years back. Were the guesses that far off when they started? Also, in the beginning, I don't recall any mention of having to spend thousands of dollars per week in podunk tenn. so someone can show you the "right way" to assemble your kit. This is not anything against the plane its self- it seems like a great plane that performs as per design. It's just that I felt I might be able to afford this plane based on the initial numbers that were batted around- now it looks like it will have to be something made out of pop can material. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123388#123388 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:42 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Pricing From: "cbaron66" I apologize for that Rick, My name is Bruce. I guess I would be the polar opposite of you- all kinds of time and not very much money. I guess what I meant about the builder asist program is, when veiwing the website, I get the impression that it is highly "reccomended" that you do it. Nowhere(that I could find) do they brag about how extensive and accurate the written instructions you receive when you buy the kit are. As far as pricing, when I first saw the pieces being trailered around, they were talking about an aircraft that would be flying for less than 40k- thats a far cry from the prices listed today on the website. Also in the beginning, I'm not sure you were requiered to use the jabaru powerplant. It just seems to me this whole company has morphed away from building kits for "modest"builders to buy, to catering to guys with much deeper pockets and little time to truly "experiance" building an airplane with your bare hands. In other words, I think they found a pot with more gold in it. I guess I can't blame them for that........ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123409#123409 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:49 AM PST US From: "Pete" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Pricing I think you are a little confused about what you saw in the past. The Lightning has always specified the Jabiru engine. No other engine was ever considered. Never was $40,000 mentioned as a cost for a complete airframe. The first five were sold at a discount that made the kit and engine package come to about $40,000 and we were advertising on the web site that one could complete a low end Lightning for $50,000. The only reason we offer a build assist program is that 70% of our customers ask for it and think it well worth the money. I did not get from the web site that a build assist program is required or even recommended! I don't think the company has morphed in any direction. We offer a kit that builds faster than any of the faster kit built aircraft for a cost that is "modest" when compared to other fast build kits. It was never our mission to compete with Sonex for the extreme low cost aircraft but to offer one that does not much more than a Zenith 601, flies a whole lot better with speeds approaching the RV 6 and can be built for less money than an RV and in a small fraction of the time. We tried to look more like a Lancair but at a fraction of the cost and a small fraction of the build time. I had thought we had communicated that mission but I must need more effort there. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cbaron66 Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:18 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Pricing I apologize for that Rick, My name is Bruce. I guess I would be the polar opposite of you- all kinds of time and not very much money. I guess what I meant about the builder asist program is, when veiwing the website, I get the impression that it is highly "reccomended" that you do it. Nowhere(that I could find) do they brag about how extensive and accurate the written instructions you receive when you buy the kit are. As far as pricing, when I first saw the pieces being trailered around, they were talking about an aircraft that would be flying for less than 40k- thats a far cry from the prices listed today on the website. Also in the beginning, I'm not sure you were requiered to use the jabaru powerplant. It just seems to me this whole company has morphed away from building kits for "modest"builders to buy, to catering to guys with much deeper pockets and little time to truly "experiance" building an airplane with your bare hands. In other words, I think they found a pot wit! h more gold in it. I guess I can't blame them for that........ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123409#123409 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:34 AM PST US From: "Paul Mitchell" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Pricing Sir, I am the agent for kit built Tecnam Sierras in the UK. I am an active viewer of the Lightning site as well as the original Spanish Esqual site, even flew with Francois before he was killed. I love the Lightning and said hello to you at Sun n Fun this year. The point I would like to make is at the present exchange rate of the dollar being worth 1/2 a pound, a similar VFR equipped Sierra cost $ 100k to build in UK. Petrol is over $ 8 dollars an imperial gallon and this fella is complaining. Paul Mitchell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete" Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 4:12 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Pricing > > I've got to address this one. > > It is really hard to understand where this guy (whoever he is - unsigned > emails really irk me) is coming from. We did have a price increase of > $4,000 on the aircraft kit and the Jabiru engine has increased $1,000. > Everything else has remained the same. > > If you build the plane yourself and don't put many instruments into it you > can still build a Lightning in 400 hours or so for about $55,000. Most > builders put in a more expensive interior and lots of avionics and will > spend $70,000 to build in their garage. > > Those who are not as cosmopolitan and refined as this poster and choose to > come to Podunk, TN (better known as Shelbyville - capital of the Tennessee > walking horse) will spend an additional $9,600 to help get his airplane > built in three weeks. Add about $5,000 for a professional paint job and > the > total then comes to about $85,000 for a glass cockpit equipped great > looking > aircraft. These numbers are little different from our first price > estimates > posted on www.flylightning.net a year and a half ago. > > In any kit built aircraft the price always reflects the time involved. > You > can build a Sonex or Zenith for less money but 4 or 5 times the time > involved or a Lightning for much less time but more money. > > I don't think we've mislead anyone on the costs - at least we try not to > do > so. > > Pete Krotje > Arion Aircraft, LLC > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cbaron66 > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 9:04 AM > To: lightning-list@matronics.com > Subject: Lightning-List: Pricing > > > Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems to me the finished/flying price > of > this aircraft has gone up more than twenty grand since the pre-production > promises a few years back. Were the guesses that far off when they > started? > Also, in the beginning, I don't recall any mention of having to spend > thousands of dollars per week in podunk tenn. so someone can show you the > "right way" to assemble your kit. This is not anything against the plane > its > self- it seems like a great plane that performs as per design. It's just > that I felt I might be able to afford this plane based on the initial > numbers that were batted around- now it looks like it will have to be > something made out of pop can material. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123388#123388 > > > -- > 4:09 PM > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:08 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Pricing From: "cbaron66" Pete, Once again I'll compliment you on a wonderful aircraft that seems to do everything good. You said it yourself- you sold the first five with the engine for less than 40 grand( you actually told me 38,500, and the price without the engine was 24,500 as I recall) and that was what I'm baseing this thread on. I didn't write it down, but I was also told by someone there(I don't remember the name) that I could most likely use an o-235 if I wanted to build my own mount(which I would). As I have one that is low time, and you can get a wood prop for less than a grand, I would be flying for less than $30,000!- I guess I should have taken you up on the deal at the time...... AGAIN this is not an attack on you or your company. You have a great product and a good business model- just not for us small potatoes builders. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123421#123421 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:42 AM PST US From: "Bob Haas" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Off to build! Gentlemen; I have been tracking the Lightning on Matronics since S&F. I have even been to "Podunk" by road from S.W. Florida! Where is this Greenfields? Is it like the mythical Camelot where all good Lightning's are born? Bob Haas, N380 BH. _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Colin J. Kennedy Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:48 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Off to build! Good luck Jim - I can understand your excitement! A lot has been written on this forum about the Lightning's flying qualities, but relatively little about the build process. I am looking forward to your reports very much. Colin K. OK -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [ mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Langley Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:23 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Off to build! The kit is in and I'm off to Green Landings for 5 days to start on my Lightning. I have to say that I am very excited and in spite of some delays in getting the kit to WV, it all worked out and we are ready to rock and roll! I will be taking a bunch of pictures and documenting everything that I am doing. I am also prepping for an article that may go in either Sport Aviation or Sport Pilot. In speaking with Mary at EAA today, we are going to hold off and see what the focus of the article is going to be. I want to do something along the line of the builder's experience in the builder's assist program with some focus on the Lightning. This would allow me to put the article in Sport Pilot because even though I am not going light sport, I can talk about the Lightning and how is can be build as a light sport or straight experimental aircraft. I have a web site with nothing in it at this time, www.jimslightning.com I will be updating it as I go. Unless Ryan has wireless at Green Landings, I will not have internet access, so I'll just say adios and will check back in next week. Jim! N730AL ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:44 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Off to build! In a message dated 7/12/2007 2:18:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, checkpoint2@comcast.net writes: Gentlemen; I have been tracking the Lightning on Matronics since S&F. I have even been to =9CPodunk=9D by road from S.W. Florida! Where is this Greenfields? Is it like the mythical Camelot where all good Lightning=99s are born? Bob Haas, N380 BH. Bob, Check _www.greenstrip.com_ (http://www.greenstrip.com) doug ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL a t http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:20 PM PST US From: "Pete" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Off to build! Better yet try www.greenlandings.com Pete _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kayberg@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Off to build! In a message dated 7/12/2007 2:18:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, checkpoint2@comcast.net writes: Gentlemen; I have been tracking the Lightning on Matronics since S&F. I have even been to "Podunk" by road from S.W. Florida! Where is this Greenfields? Is it like the mythical Camelot where all good Lightning's are born? Bob Haas, N380 BH. Bob, Check www.greenstrip.com doug _____ Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL.com . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:24 PM PST US From: nick otterback Subject: Lightning-List: From Podunk TN I think enough has been said about where we are at ( it is a fact that we have a Super Wal-mart and a Ruby tuesdays) but the fact that the lifht prices Have gone up to find deeper pockets is very unreasonable. The original price was 25,900 intro with an increase to 29,900 afetr 5 airframes were sold. This stayed very much the same until the first of 2007 when we went to 33,900. Again this price increase was not for more money but to provide the builder with a better kit, among the improvments are Powder coated metal parts, formed rear windows, and among other items moderate retooling of the molds to provide a better fit and finish, something which could be accomplish before but took a bit more time. I can assure you that no other engine but the 3300 jabiru has ever been considered by Arion Aircraft, but that a builder is more than welcome to use what they like up front, we can not gurantee the performance nor would i tell you if the supporting structures could handle a different powerplant, but that is the beauty of an Experimental aircraft. Nick cjk129@cox.net wrote: Jerry, Would you share with us: How are you getting on with your build? How is the build manual and the completeness of the kit? Are there any aspects that you have found particularly challenging? What is your prognosis for the total hours to finish? Best regards Colin K. OK ---- Jerry Vanheeswyk wrote: > > > > > > Hello, Tex. I am building a lightning at home, but unfortunately can not > make Oshkosh this year. I have been working on my kit for about a year, and > hope to fly by the end of 2007. I would be happy to exchange experiences > with other homebuilders - sorry it can not be at Oshkosh, but hope to show > you my Lightning in person next year. > > Jerry Van Heeswyk > Tucson, Arizona > > > > "Tex Mantell" > > .net> To > Sent by: > owner-lightning-l cc > ist-server@matron > ics.com Subject > Re: Lightning-List: Going to > Oshkosh? > 07/09/2007 05:29 > AM > > > Please respond to > lightning-list@ma > tronics.com > > > > > > > Peter, will look for you at the lighting booth, I will be helpng down at > the sea base the first two days, then up to the main area. Tex > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter and Jan Disher > To: lightning-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 8:51 PM > Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Going to Oshkosh? > > G'Day Tex, > Peter Disher. Australia here. > Yes Tex, I will be there staying at the uni. from 22nd till the 30th, will > be there every day, hope to catch up with you. > Pete D. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tex Mantell > To: lightning List > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:21 AM > Subject: Lightning-List: Going to Oshkosh? > > I would like to meet with others who are building Lightinings kits at > home. Tex > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > Date: 8/07/2007 6:32 PM > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > ==================================== > ==================================== > ==================================== > --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:50 PM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Off to build! In a message dated 7/12/2007 3:07:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pete@flylightning.net writes: Better yet try _www.greenlandings.com_ (http://www.greenlandings.com/) Pete wow, do I have egg on my face! Thanks Pete. Doug ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:11 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Off to build! From: "pequeajim" I arrived in the morning at Green Landings to find my Lightning in a cradle in the middle of the hangar waiting for me! The guys here are pretty relaxed and willing to let me work at my own pace, (with help of course). I had printed out the manual and brought my camera and notebook for taking notes. I have also been adding notes to items in the manual for possible suggestions for improvements or additions. One thing I should have done first thing is to separate all my stuff so it would be easy to find parts. This slowed me down during the day as I found myself searching for things. I will be sorting things out tomorrow. Things accomplished today - Cut out all openings - Sande from the fuse side to the stab root.d down inside of fuse - Cut out windows and prepped for gluing - Glued right side window - Prepped left window - Cut holes in tail - Installed brackets for horiz stab - Started to assemble main gear. I only ran into two issues today. I can't seem to get the horizontal stab right. I also noticed that when bolting the two halves together, there is a good 1/4"+ gap on both sides. I assume that the the kid down not rely on the stab root being tight against the fuse half for support and this will be ok? I will shoot a pic of it tomorrow after we fix my goof up and let you see what I mean. The other thing I ran into was when drilling the bolt holes for mounting the main axle. The instructions call for a two washer separation and as I was cutting, I noticed that the shaft had moved and mine was morelike three. I don't think this is an issue at all so I drilled the other side to match. My wheels will stick out about 1/8th of an inch more than specified. Kind of like a wide trac huh? I having a great time. I brought my motorhome and am camping out in their driveway. Met some very frendly people at the airport and am looking forward to a productive day tomorrow. "now where is that wheel? I know I left it around somewhere..." Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123521#123521 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:25 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Off to build! "I can't seem to get the horizontal stab right. I also noticed that when bolting the two halves together, there is a good 1/4"+ gap on both sides." Jim, There were gaps in between the horizontal stabilizer. I couldn't attest to the size from memory, but several people have added a layer of glass to seal this up once the horizontals are mounted. It looks good once you get it all sealed up. Whew, sounds like you got a lot done today. You will be flying before you know it and look forward to hearing what you think of the plane. Brian W. From: "pequeajim" Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Off to build! I arrived in the morning at Green Landings to find my Lightning in a cradle in the middle of the hangar waiting for me! The guys here are pretty relaxed and willing to let me work at my own pace, (with help of course). I had printed out the manual and brought my camera and notebook for taking notes. I have also been adding notes to items in the manual for possible suggestions for improvements or additions. One thing I should have done first thing is to separate all my stuff so it would be easy to find parts. This slowed me down during the day as I found myself searching for things. I will be sorting things out tomorrow. Things accomplished today - Cut out all openings - Sande from the fuse side to the stab root.d down inside of fuse - Cut out windows and prepped for gluing - Glued right side window - Prepped left window - Cut holes in tail - Installed brackets for horiz stab - Started to assemble main gear. I only ran into two issues today. I can't seem to get the horizontal stab right. I also noticed that when bolting the two halves together, there is a good 1/4"+ gap on both sides. I assume that the the kid down not rely on the stab root being tight against the fuse half for support and this will be ok? I will shoot a pic of it tomorrow after we fix my goof up and let you see what I mean. The other thing I ran into was when drilling the bolt holes for mounting the main axle. The instructions call for a two washer separation and as I was cutting, I noticed that the shaft had moved and mine was morelike three. I don't think this is an issue at all so I drilled the other side to match. My wheels will stick out about 1/8th of an inch more than specified. Kind of like a wide trac huh? I having a great time. I brought my motorhome and am camping out in their driveway. Met some very frendly people at the airport and am looking forward to a productive day tomorrow. "now where is that wheel? I know I left it around somewhere..." Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123521#123521 _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:17 PM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Pricing "Nowhere(that I could find) do they brag about how extensive and accurate the written instructions you receive when you buy the kit are." Bruce, I'm not sure when you joined the list, but in the past 2-3 weeks there have been probably 2-3 people who are regular ole joe's who have testified to the build manual with extensive pictures and how accurately written they were. I know that Buz has seen them. I can't remember which other customer had just commented on that in about the past week. If you're looking for them bragging on the build manual on the website, now that's another story. From my 2+ years knowing the bunch at Shelbyville and flying with a little of all of them. (BTW, a light sport compliant Lightning can keep up with an experimental.....for a couple of seconds. I saw Mark from a few thousand feet up when he took out Alpha Lima, and me in Rick's plane. Trading altitude for airspeed I fell right in beside him.....but then loosing that energy from the dive, well he started to walk away from me pretty good.) Anyhow, from my knowing them, they're not a bragging bunch of people. They just kind of let the facts speak for themselves. Now several of the board members will tell you that they were doubting Thomas's when they came onto the list. So many conversations come back to square one with new members. Hopefully a few of those guys will be flying before long and can tell you what their unbiased opinion is. So far, everybody that I know is buying the Lightning for one of two things (or both): looks or performance. You might be able to find something with better looks if you try hard enough (although I doubt it'll be cheaper). You can definately find something with better performance, although it may cost you half a million or so, and even then the fuel consumption verses cruising speeds doesn't compare. So, what I would suggest is to ask a lot of questions, get a demo ride. If you don't like Shelbyville, go to Green Landings, or out to Tucson. Pete and his bunch are from Wisconsin if you prefer the Northern country boys. You sound like a fair weather flyer that could have a very cheap and really well performing Lightning b/c of low weight. Another thing that some people have done if you really like the plane is to go in with another partner on it. Or, if you find that it's just not a good fit for you and the money just isn't there, you are always welcome to continue on the board and be a fan. Heck, I talked to a guy today about helping to fly a B-25. It aint happening anytime soon, but we can dream. Anyhow, people aren't trying to bash you here, but the intent of your (and everybody elses) messages sometimes get a little personal when you're reading what somebody wrote as opposed to listening to them. So, welcome, lurk, post questions, carry on. Brian W. From: "cbaron66" Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Pricing I apologize for that Rick, My name is Bruce. I guess I would be the polar opposite of you- all kinds of time and not very much money. I guess what I meant about the builder asist program is, when veiwing the website, I get the impression that it is highly "reccomended" that you do it. Nowhere(that I could find) do they brag about how extensive and accurate the written instructions you receive when you buy the kit are. As far as pricing, when I first saw the pieces being trailered around, they were talking about an aircraft that would be flying for less than 40k- thats a far cry from the prices listed today on the website. Also in the beginning, I'm not sure you were requiered to use the jabaru powerplant. It just seems to me this whole company has morphed away from building kits for "modest"builders to buy, to catering to guys with much deeper pockets and little time to truly "experiance" building an airplane with your bare hands. In other words, I think they found a pot wit! h more gold in it. I guess I can't blame them for that........ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=123409#123409 _________________________________________________________________ http://liveearth.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.