---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/11/07: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:28 AM - Re: Lightning fiberglass factory visit (Kayberg@aol.com) 2. 04:53 AM - Re: condition inspection (deuskid) 3. 04:53 AM - Re: Lightning fiberglass factory visit (georgiemun) 4. 05:09 AM - Re: Lightning fiberglass factory visit (Brian Whittingham) 5. 05:20 AM - Re: Re: Lightning fiberglass factory visit (Brian Whittingham) 6. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: condition inspection (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 7. 06:03 AM - Re: Re: Lightning fiberglass factory visit (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 8. 06:44 AM - Re: Taildraggers forever....... (nick otterback) 9. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: Aviating in Virginia (Jim Langley) 10. 08:36 PM - Another two days on N730AL (Jim Langley) 11. 09:51 PM - Re: Another two days on N730AL (nick otterback) 12. 10:32 PM - Re: Another two days on N730AL (Steven Sundquist) 13. 10:46 PM - Lightning Videos (Jim Langley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:05 AM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning fiberglass factory visit In a message dated 8/10/2007 9:35:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lozhoffman@yahoo.com writes: And what's wrong with being a die hard taildragger fan???? I sense another real aeroplane vs tricycle undercarriage airplane discussion coming! Laurie Sydney I plead guilty to a charge of emotional bias. At Oshkosh this year I saw a Luscomb nose over on its back; and a P-51 Mustang driver crash and die on landing their taildraggers in two seperate incidents right in front of me. Had they been trigear, it is quite likely no crash would have occured. As I age, it seems senseless to make an airplane MORE LIKELY to crash when landing! Since no tri-gear Pitts exists (to my knowledge) I have no problems with it. Or with specialty airplanes that would seem to require tailwheels. But for casual flyers, to retrofit to a tailwheel would seem not to make sense for the wise. doug koenigsberg http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:33 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: condition inspection From: "deuskid" Kayberg(at)AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 8/9/2007 9:49:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, empire.john@gmail.com writes: > > > > > I do agree with your conclusion, however, that it is better to build than to buy. > > > > Doug Koenigsberg > > > > > > > > > [b] > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually this is from 2 A&Ps from 2 different forums [Canardavaition and VAF]. On VAF they guy told me he charges around 750 and cited another name that charges $1,000 [both specifically for RVs and both are EAA counselors and DARs]. The canard guy actually said 2-3k for the initial condition inspection [~40 hours @ $75/hr] and then something north of $1k after that. > > > > What have been your personal experiences? > > > > thanks > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of my personal experiences are vicarious. My conclusion, however, is that certified mechanics are not a monolitic bunch. > > > One other consideration is your own mechanical expertise. If you built a plane, you should be able to inspect it. If you have NEVER built a plane, or overhauled a car engine, welded, assembled something other than a bicycle, then a good inspector is worth whatever. If you already know everything about your plane, then to pay $ to have someone inspect what you already know to be correct, is annoying. > > The DAR checked what he wanted anyway and got to a fuel system check. "Turn on the boost pump" he told the owner. "Now come and look" he said. A fitting in the fuel system was loose and a fine mist of fuel was spraying directly on the exhaust pipe! "This is why we do inspections!" said my DAR to the builder. > > > doug > > Thanks Doug. I have significant auto mechanical experience and aptitude. I was weighing buying an experimental v. building when this issue arose. I snipped your message for space sake but everything you said had value - thank you. I can see having another set of eyes on one's a/c would be wise. I was just surprised at the large amounts quoted by the few replies in the other forums. IF an condition inspection is > $1k each year and is avoidable by building the a/c oneself then it is an meaningful input in the buy/build decision process. John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=128602#128602 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:33 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning fiberglass factory visit From: "georgiemun" [/quote] I plead guilty to a charge of emotional bias. At Oshkosh this year I saw a Luscomb nose over on its back; and a P-51 Mustang driver crash and die on landing their taildraggers in two seperate incidents right in front of me. Had they been trigear, it is quite likely no crash would have occured. [/quote] I think you are a little off base here. The Mustang crash had nothing to do with the fact that the aircraft is a tail dragger since he was still in the air when he ran up into the tail of the guy in front of him. Flying that close, he would have done the same thing in a tri-gear. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=128603#128603 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:59 AM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning fiberglass factory visit "a P-51 Mustang driver crash and die on landing their taildraggers" To be fair that was caused by more than just being a taildragger. The FAA said that they were not flying in for a formation landing, but trying to land at the same time, thus lack of communication played a major part. You could almost make the same argument here about low wing and high wing airplanes and their blind spots when descending or climbing. One thing that we did discuss in an air race forum (P-51's at Oskosh were finishing a mock air race) was the need for a rollover structure. In this case it likely wouldn't have mattered, but at Sun N Fun a few years back a T-6 rolled onto its back, the rollover structure had been removed, and the person suffocated b/c his neck was pinched backwards. After that they required at least 2 different race classes have rollover structures. Some said that the plane went into the grass and it wouldn't have mattered and it would've dug in. The fact is that you just don't know since it didn't have one. Kind of back to the orgianlly intended topic, the Lightning has an area behind the canopy that is supposed to be designed as a roll over structure from what I was told. Brian W. From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning fiberglass factory visit In a message dated 8/10/2007 9:35:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lozhoffman@yahoo.com writes: And what's wrong with being a die hard taildragger fan???? I sense another real aeroplane vs tricycle undercarriage airplane discussion coming! Laurie Sydney I plead guilty to a charge of emotional bias. At Oshkosh this year I saw a Luscomb nose over on its back; and a P-51 Mustang driver crash and die on landing their taildraggers in two seperate incidents right in front of me. Had they been trigear, it is quite likely no crash would have occured. As I age, it seems senseless to make an airplane MORE LIKELY to crash when landing! Since no tri-gear Pitts exists (to my knowledge) I have no problems with it. Or with specialty airplanes that would seem to require tailwheels. But for casual flyers, to retrofit to a tailwheel would seem not to make sense for the wise. doug koenigsberg http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour _________________________________________________________________ Puzzles, trivia teasers, word scrambles and more. Play for your chance to win! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:05 AM PST US From: "Brian Whittingham" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning fiberglass factory visit Also, The crash at Oskosh was actually NOT a mustang. This was a 100% scale replica of an A model mustang built from the orignal plans. It and the other aircraft involved were featured in a new movie called "Thunder Over Reno", which is about air racing. Movie Trailer can be found here: http://www.thunderoverreno.com/news/ Also, the two families involved were good friends and the plane that survived was actually the owners son. (not a really young guy, just mean that had to be scary for the owner to see all of this). Brian W. From: "georgiemun" Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning fiberglass factory visit [/quote] I plead guilty to a charge of emotional bias. At Oshkosh this year I saw a Luscomb nose over on its back; and a P-51 Mustang driver crash and die on landing their taildraggers in two seperate incidents right in front of me. Had they been trigear, it is quite likely no crash would have occured. [/quote] I think you are a little off base here. The Mustang crash had nothing to do with the fact that the aircraft is a tail dragger since he was still in the air when he ran up into the tail of the guy in front of him. Flying that close, he would have done the same thing in a tri-gear. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=128603#128603 _________________________________________________________________ Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:59 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: condition inspection In a message dated 8/11/2007 7:54:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, empire.john@gmail.com writes: Thanks Doug. I have significant auto mechanical experience and aptitude. I was weighing buying an experimental v. building when this issue arose. I snipped your message for space sake but everything you said had value - thank you. I can see having another set of eyes on one's a/c would be wise. I was just surprised at the large amounts quoted by the few replies in the other forums. IF an condition inspection is > $1k each year and is avoidable by building the a/c oneself then it is an meaningful input in the buy/build decision process. John John, There is no question that the Lightning is the best value on the market today for 1) price 2)performance 3) ease of building (particularly at a build center) 4) economy. There is financing available, a quickly growing body of experience, sound construction and trustworthy people who run things. Actually the people are more important than the airplane, but that is another thread. At Green Landings, we are proud to represent the two very best kitplanes in their respective worlds; The Sky Ranger and the Lightning. By the time you have built one you will confidently do your own inspections, and since you will probably keep it til you die, the whole question of "condition inspections" is moot. Sorry about the commercial, my emotions are a bit ragged today. doug http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:07 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning fiberglass factory visit In a message dated 8/11/2007 7:54:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, georgiemun@yahoo.com writes: I think you are a little off base here. The Mustang crash had nothing to do with the fact that the aircraft is a tail dragger since he was still in the air when he ran up into the tail of the guy in front of him. Flying that close, he would have done the same thing in a tri-gear. You may be right.......but with a nosewheel he would have had the option to just bang it down and slam on the brakes. It would seem to me that with a tailwheel you have fewer options at touchdown. doug http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:53 AM PST US From: nick otterback Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Taildraggers forever....... Rick... I was not scared at all flying with you in N727RB, it was a fun experiance. As long as we are stirring up the ol tail wheel nose wheel pot i thought i might interject. There are never really problems with aeroplanes as much as there are problems with the pilot and what they do with that airplane. I to have seen a few nose draggers land hard, collapse a nose leg under and flip the plane on its back, so was it the airplane or the landing....most likley the later. I do think tail draggers are much better for grass ops then tir gears, don't see too many C182 bush planes, but either one desgined properly and flown correctly can be just as safe as the other. I fly both types on a reqgular basis so i am not just shootin in the dark here the tail wheel takes more concentration to fly during the takeoff and landing phase, but than again we are pilots here not bus drivers so a little more is expected. I have also taught many a pilot to fly the ol tail wheel and found that most of them once trained were more aware of the aircraft, its capabilities and their surroundings at the airport. May be flying nose gears have allowed us to be more relaxed group of pilots and not worry because the plane wont hurt us if we screw up alittle. Anyways this discussion could go on and on for years, ever heard of chevy vs ford, you get the picture. If we apply all of this to something pertaining to the lightning i think we can come up with a few things. Yes is is a nose gear design, this is to tailor to the general pilot group out there. dos this make it easier to land, no not really, what gets most pilots is that it only weighs half of what the airplane they came out of weighs. And it is responsive, would it be harder to transistionin to if it was a tail wheel plane, i do no think so. And last will there ever be a tail wheel lightning....YES! nick Rick Bowen wrote: >From: Laurie Hoffman >To: lightning-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning fiberglass factory visit >Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:34:41 -0700 (PDT) > > >And what's wrong with being a die hard taildragger >fan???? Yup, I gotta' tell ya Laurie....it took me a few tries at landing my Lightning before I could get out of the "get the tail down and 3-point" mentality.... Nose rollers---ugh, I had to "re-learn" how to land a nose-roller! Thanks for the help Nick!!(did I scare 'ya?) Rick _________________________________________________________________ A new home for Mom, no cleanup required. All starts here. http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:52 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Aviating in Virginia Hey Rick: Sorry we missed you today? The weather was great. Ryan was flying one of two Lightnings off and on all day. I finished up what I needed to work on today, so I came home tonight instead of staying another day. Sorry I missed you. Jim! -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rickss Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 3:40 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Aviating in Virginia Thanks guys, I just might do that. Lets see what the weather does. -------- Cherokee driver, but feeling the need for speed! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=128429#128429 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:21 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Lightning-List: Another two days on N730AL Spent another two days at Green Landings. Man, the weather was great and I made some more progress on the airplane. Today, I caught some nice videos to go along with the Esqual vids that I took last time I was down there. I will post them to a web site so that you guys can get to them if you wish. Jim! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:08 PM PST US From: nick otterback Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Another two days on N730AL To lightning group This is nick i am waiting for the rest of my family to arrive here in pasco WA, what a hole. the terminal that is, any ways it is 11:45 your time and i am bored, any question about lightning stuff i will be checking the mail on occasion with the lightning list. won't be back to the shop for a week, until then happy hunting.. nick Jim Langley wrote: Spent another two days at Green Landings. Man, the weather was great and I made some more progress on the airplane. Today, I caught some nice videos to go along with the Esqual vids that I took last time I was down there. I will post them to a web site so that you guys can get to them if you wish. Jim! --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:04 PM PST US From: "Steven Sundquist" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Another two days on N730AL To Nick, I am in Yakima, about 90 miles up the road. If you arrived in Pasco via Lightning I sure would like to meet up with you to possibly get a demo flight, but at least talk with you and get a few questions answered. . But I suspect you flew commercial if you are in the terminal. It would be great to meet you in person after all of those emails. Steve Sundquist _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nick otterback Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 9:51 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Another two days on N730AL To lightning group This is nick i am waiting for the rest of my family to arrive here in pasco WA, what a hole. the terminal that is, any ways it is 11:45 your time and i am bored, any question about lightning stuff i will be checking the mail on occasion with the lightning list. won't be back to the shop for a week, until then happy hunting.. nick Jim Langley wrote: Spent another two days at Green Landings. Man, the weather was great and I made some more progress on the airplane. Today, I caught some nice videos to go along with the Esqual vids that I took that gives answers, not web links. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:05 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Lightning-List: Lightning Videos I am in the process of putting up some videos, (web quality), of the Lightning and a local Esqual. Go to http://www.jimslightning.com and select the video that you want to watch. I setup the site just for this, (one page). These files are BIG! Better to right click on the link and save to your hard disk. Listen to the engine and prop sound of the Esqual, (Juan's). Sound like a mini P-51! Jim! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.