Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:14 AM - Elevator trim (Jim Langley)
2. 07:51 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Charles Dewey)
3. 08:07 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Jim Langley)
4. 08:53 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Brian Whittingham)
5. 10:39 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Charles Dewey)
6. 11:40 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Jim Langley)
7. 02:41 PM - Canopy Latch (Mefford, Walt)
8. 04:03 PM - Re: Elevator trim (rickss)
9. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: Elevator trim (Brian Whittingham)
10. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Manual Trim Wheel (Jim Langley)
11. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Manual Trim Wheel (Jim Langley)
12. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: Manual Trim Wheel (Brian Whittingham)
13. 06:35 PM - Re: Elevator trim (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
14. 07:03 PM - Re: Elevator trim (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
15. 10:36 PM - Re: Elevator trim (Johnny Thompson)
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Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel, (like the one used in the
RANS) in their Lightning?
I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never seem to get the right
"feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always liked about the Cessna is
the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get a very fine resolution
with it as opposed to using a trim motor.
I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and installing it later.
Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing the stock system, but
then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is flying.
Jim!
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
Let me know what you come up with for a super secure
canopy latch. It would be nice to know you could fly
the Lightning to Mexico and not worry aout getting
your electronics ripped off. charles
--- Jim Langley <pequeajim@gmail.com> wrote:
> Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel,
> (like the one used in the
> RANS) in their Lightning?
>
> I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never
> seem to get the right
> "feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always
> liked about the Cessna is
> the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get
> a very fine resolution
> with it as opposed to using a trim motor.
>
> I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and
> installing it later.
>
> Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing
> the stock system, but
> then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is
> flying.
>
> Jim!
>
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
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Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
I already have a concept in mind. I would love to use the kit that is used
for the Legacy if it would fit.
On 10/3/07, Charles Dewey <cdewey6969@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Let me know what you come up with for a super secure
> canopy latch. It would be nice to know you could fly
> the Lightning to Mexico and not worry aout getting
> your electronics ripped off. charles
> --- Jim Langley <pequeajim@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel,
> > (like the one used in the
> > RANS) in their Lightning?
> >
> > I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never
> > seem to get the right
> > "feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always
> > liked about the Cessna is
> > the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get
> > a very fine resolution
> > with it as opposed to using a trim motor.
> >
> > I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and
> > installing it later.
> >
> > Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing
> > the stock system, but
> > then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is
> > flying.
> >
> > Jim!
> >
>
>
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
>
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I would like to see this Legacy mod canopy latch on a Lightning: http://www.aerochia.com/kits_aft-canopy.html This would allow the occupant to "get out" of the Lightning with a parachute a lot easier than with a forward hinged canopy. It also has an external emergency release for safety. I'm not certain but I think this can all be locked with a key to keep people out and looks pretty sturdy. I doubt this would fit by itself, but with some modification or if somebody could be found to fabricate the parts specifically for the Lightning it'd be great! See what you all think, Brian W.
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brian- i like that canopy. it seems safer in a mid
-air emergency if you have to jump out charles
--- Brian Whittingham <dashvii@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Whittingham <dashvii@hotmail.com>
>
>
> I would like to see this Legacy mod canopy latch on
> a Lightning:
> http://www.aerochia.com/kits_aft-canopy.html This
> would allow the occupant to "get out" of the
> Lightning with a parachute a lot easier than with a
> forward hinged canopy. It also has an external
> emergency release for safety. I'm not certain but I
> think this can all be locked with a key to keep
> people out and looks pretty sturdy. I doubt this
> would fit by itself, but with some modification or
> if somebody could be found to fabricate the parts
> specifically for the Lightning it'd be great! See
> what you all think, Brian W.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the
> Messenger Caf. Stop by today.
>
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>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
Interesting. The concept of the standard Legacy latch, but in reverse.
On 10/3/07, Brian Whittingham <dashvii@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> dashvii@hotmail.com>
>
>
> I would like to see this Legacy mod canopy latch on a Lightning:
> http://www.aerochia.com/kits_aft-canopy.html This would allow the
> occupant to "get out" of the Lightning with a parachute a lot easier than
> with a forward hinged canopy. It also has an external emergency release
for
> safety. I'm not certain but I think this can all be locked with a key to
> keep people out and looks pretty sturdy. I doubt this would fit by itsel
f,
> but with some modification or if somebody could be found to fabricate the
> parts specifically for the Lightning it'd be great! See what you all thi
nk,
> Brian W.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Sto
p
> by today.
>
> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_
OctWLtagline
>
===========
===========
===========
>
>
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The Diamond DA-20 has a locking latch system that would probably work.
Walt Mefford
Silverton, OR
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Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
Interesting that you mentioned the manual trim wheel. When I went up to Green Landings
for a demo flight with Ryan, we both agreed that we would like a manual
trim wheel, too....well I should speak for Ryan, but I would like it
-Rick
[quote="pequeajim"]Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel, (like the
one used in the RANS) in their Lightning?
I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never seem to get the right "feel"
when setting the trim. One thing I always liked about the Cessna is the manual
trim wheel and the fact that you can get a very fine resolution with it
as opposed to using a trim motor.
I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and installing it later.
Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing the stock system, but then
I will modify it later afer the aircraft is flying.
Jim!
> [b]
--------
Cherokee driver, but feeling the need for speed!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137942#137942
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
My thoughts are that I love the convienience of having an electric trim on
the stick. I never have to take my hands off the throttle and stick. If I
had it my way I'd wire as much stuff as was ever used in takeoff and landi
ng into the stick and a couple of things for convienience such as a comm fl
ip switch. Now having said that, the benefits of a trim wheel are obvious.
You get a feel for the air loads your trimming off and can fine tune that
. The Lightning is light enough on the controls that you could fly it with
out trim, although after a while it would start to wear you out. So you pr
obably don't have much trim when you're working on the final approach to la
nding. Manual trim wheel also is a simplified system that allows for a red
undancy. The same thing could be said for manual flaps. I'm not sure what
Arion has in store for the future of the Lightning anymore since I am no l
onger living up there, but it is an Experimental, build it the way you want
it. The more "features" that are offered in the kit, most likely the high
er the cost of the kit will become. Right now the Lightning is offered at
a good and reasonable price, but with cost increase comes buyer decrease at
some point. The Lightning was built to be flown, built, and own by as wid
e of audience as possible. Just my .02 Brian W.
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Subject: | Re: Manual Trim Wheel |
Yeah, although I like lots of stuff electric, there is something to be said
for a manual trim wheel. Even though the aircraft can be flown "hands off"
as many put it, rarely does an electric trim, (if ever) supply the
resolution that one gets from a manual trim wheel properly set up.
That would be one addition that I would like to add later.
Jim!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rickss
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:03 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Elevator trim
Interesting that you mentioned the manual trim wheel. When I went up to
Green Landings for a demo flight with Ryan, we both agreed that we would
like a manual trim wheel, too....well I should speak for Ryan, but I would
like it
-Rick
[quote="pequeajim"]Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel, (like
the one used in the RANS) in their Lightning?
I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never seem to get the right
"feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always liked about the Cessna is
the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get a very fine resolution
with it as opposed to using a trim motor.
I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and installing it later.
Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing the stock system, but
then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is flying.
Jim!
> [b]
--------
Cherokee driver, but feeling the need for speed!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137942#137942
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Manual Trim Wheel |
I agree with you Brian that the convenience of having the trim on the stick
is nice, but for me I like the fine tuning capabilities of a manual trim
wheel. I will be building it stock and then trying some of these little
things to see what I can add to an already great design.
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Whittingham
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:15 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Elevator trim
My thoughts are that I love the convienience of having an electric trim on
the stick. I never have to take my hands off the throttle and stick. If I
had it my way I'd wire as much stuff as was ever used in takeoff and landing
into the stick and a couple of things for convienience such as a comm flip
switch. Now having said that, the benefits of a trim wheel are obvious.
You get a feel for the air loads your trimming off and can fine tune that.
The Lightning is light enough on the controls that you could fly it without
trim, although after a while it would start to wear you out. So you
probably don't have much trim when you're working on the final approach to
landing. Manual trim wheel also is a simplified system that allows for a
redundancy. The same thing could be said for manual flaps. I'm not sure
what Arion has in store for the future of the Lightning anymore since I am
no longer living up there, but it is an Experimental, build it the way you
want it. The more "features" that are offered in the kit, most likely the
higher the cost of the kit will become. Right now the Lightning is offered
at a good and reasonable price, but with cost increase comes buyer decrease
at some point. The Lightning was built to be flown, built, and own by as
wide of audience as possible. Just my .02 Brian W.
_____
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Subject: | Re: Manual Trim Wheel |
Jim,
If I had a Lightning of my own I would probably do the same. I like tin
kering too much to leave it all stock. I like redundancy in my planes too.
It might be overkill in a light airplane, if you're not flying IFR and wh
atever, but I just like redundant systems. I wouldn't think a trim wheel w
ould be too hard to add in later. I have flown a Lightning where the bunge
es slipped off the trim and didn't have any trim. Just had to fly it a lit
tle like a tailwheel since the landing wanted to let the nosewheel smack do
wn. The forces weren't too bad. I also flew one with a messed up trim sys
tem which is a whole other story, but basically the plane was trimming back
wards in terms of stick forces getting heavier when they should've been get
ting lighter. So we reversed our thinking we still ran out of trim to main
tain level. Again it was fine b/c of the stick forces. You can fly hands
off and I did almost all of my flying that I got in Rick's plane using two
fingers. Just really a pleasure to fly. That particular trim was sensitiv
e, but you just needed a quick tap of the trim button. It wasn't so bad.
I did get the pleasure to fly several different customer's planes and got a
chance to see different ways that people did things. Flew with different
cockpit displays, hatch designs, switch placement. It's interesting to see
different ways that people decide to do things. Rick, did you ever get yo
ur wheelpants put on?
Also, if anybody is interested I have a CFI lesson plan that I came up for
PRIMARY systems failures. Now probably none of you will ever have any of t
hese kinds of failures in a lifetime of flying unless you get shot at or fl
y at high G a lot, but even primary control failures are very survivable.
I didn't come up with this stuff, just read through various articles and ab
out 90-100 pages of info about these situations. They were written mostly
by well known aerobatics champs. (think about that, really twitchy planes,
full span ailerons, and landing them safely) I know that Nick probably ha
s seen and prepared for all of this, Buzz has done a lot of the same. Did
you guys get any training on control systems failures in the Air force or d
id you just send it back to the taxpayers? Good Discussions and bouncing o
f ideas on here! Brian W.
From: pequeajim@gmail.comTo: lightning-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Light
ning-List: Re: Manual Trim WheelDate: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:49:12 -0400
I agree with you Brian that the convenience of having the trim on the stick
is nice, but for me I like the fine tuning capabilities of a manual trim w
heel. I will be building it stock and then trying some of these little thi
ngs to see what I can add to an already great design.
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian WhittinghamSent: Wednesday, Octo
ber 03, 2007 7:15 PMTo: lightning-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Lightning-
List: Re: Elevator trim
My thoughts are that I love the convienience of having an electric trim on
the stick. I never have to take my hands off the throttle and stick. If I
had it my way I'd wire as much stuff as was ever used in takeoff and landi
ng into the stick and a couple of things for convienience such as a comm fl
ip switch. Now having said that, the benefits of a trim wheel are obvious.
You get a feel for the air loads your trimming off and can fine tune that
. The Lightning is light enough on the controls that you could fly it with
out trim, although after a while it would start to wear you out. So you pr
obably don't have much trim when you're working on the final approach to la
nding. Manual trim wheel also is a simplified system that allows for a red
undancy. The same thing could be said for manual flaps. I'm not sure what
Arion has in store for the future of the Lightning anymore since I am no l
onger living up there, but it is an Experimental, build it the way you want
it. The more "features" that are offered in the kit, most likely the high
er the cost of the kit will become. Right now the Lightning is offered at
a good and reasonable price, but with cost increase comes buyer decrease at
some point. The Lightning was built to be flown, built, and own by as wid
e of audience as possible. Just my .02 Brian W.
Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ' together at last. Get
it now!
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Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
Just to make sure everyone understands the Lightning's elevator trim system,
here are a few words. First off it should probably be correctly called a
pitch trim system since the Lightning does not have an elevator trim tab. What
it does have is a bungee cord loop set up that helps the pilot pull on the
elevator trim push pull rod. The electric trim motor (same type motor as the
flap motor) pulls on the bungee loop that in turn helps relieve pitch
pressures. Very simple system that is infinitely adjustable with the up and down
buttons on the top of the stick grip. To change to a pitch trim wheel would
greatly complicate the system since where the bungee is located could not be
reached by the pilot in flight, so you would have to completely redesign the
entire set up. Added complexity will add weight, and in my mind you are fixing
a problem that does not exist. My recommendation would be to fly it like it
is and see if you like it. Most store bought aircraft trim systems use
rather long cables and pullies that at best have quite a bit of slop. This
system does not. Change it if you want, but be prepared to come up with a much
more complex set up.
Now having said the above, I have found one down side to the bungee
system set up. Over a period of time (and higher temperatures) the bungee will
loose some of it's strength and need to be adjusted or replaced. Plan on
replacing the bungee about ever two to three years. The bungee material is
readily available in the "aircraft parts" section of any hardware store, Lowes,
Home Depot, etc. It is inexpensive and easy to replace. If you really want to
"improve" your pitch trim system. Replace the bungee with some sort of
coiled spring set up. However you will probably have to buy "mucho dollars"
worth of different coil springs to finally come up with the right one. Maybe
the
Tennessee guys had it right the first time, since bungee loops can easily be
adjusted for more or less strength by making the loop larger or smaller and
it really is inexpensive. Yep, the KISS principal at work. But as I have
said before, it is your airplane. Build it like you want it, but plan on added
time and possible added dollars. YMMV.
Blue Skies,
Buz
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Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:37:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
N1BZRich@aol.com writes:
What it does have is a bungee cord loop set up that helps the pilot pull on
the elevator trim push pull rod.
I just noticed a mistake in the above sentence - to correct it take out the
word trim.
Sorry bout that, but didn't want to confuse anyone. The bungee pitch trim
system helps the pilot pull on the elevator push/pull rod that runs from
behind the seat to the elevator control horn.
Buz
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Subject: | Re: Elevator trim |
I have installed a different latching system that connects to 4 points and
door handles ( not completed yet). I can lock the aircraft up on one or both
sides on the canopy but you can still get into the aircraft to take what you
want with one blow of a hammer, and they do that. The main purpose of the
new latches was: 1. To make the canopy seal better and not move during
flight.
2. Had some old parts around and had nothing
to do for a month.
I will say if you are going to modify your canopy latch it is much easier to
do it before the glass goes on. It is a lot of trouble and extra cost so
think about it. Me, I was bored so I did it.
I am finally near the end of the build, Started in January and took my time
making lots of changes, most of them costing me weight and amps. Hope to get
the Inspection in the about 30 days.
I would like to hear what changes people have been making on their
Ligntnings. Here are some of the changes I have made and items I have added.
Modified new type seat pans, built tilting seat backs with headrest,
installed 5 point seat belts with inertia locking reels. New canopy lock
system. Installed eng pre-oiler, parking brakes and sound proofing.
Dual throttle, larger control sticks (1-1/8") to fit some old cobra (AH1G)
grips I had. Can work flaps, trim, autopilot, change freq and swap radios
from the grips
Put an airspeed limit switch on the flaps, automatic trim with flap change
(FPS) Set up flaps for six positions. Set circuit breakers on removable
panels for maintenance. Full IFR, night, etc. I will do dynamic balancing.
As for the Paint and upholstery, well all I'll say is it is different and I
am having fun at 60. All this in a light sport.
Now I start weighing. Pray for me!!!!
This has been a fun build, people at Lightning have been great. Greg Hobbs
was great to work with and Crystal Hobbs really knows how to cook.
Johnny Thompson N8WN Tucson area
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Dewey" <cdewey6969@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator trim
>
> Let me know what you come up with for a super secure
> canopy latch. It would be nice to know you could fly
> the Lightning to Mexico and not worry aout getting
> your electronics ripped off. charles
> --- Jim Langley <pequeajim@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel,
> > (like the one used in the
> > RANS) in their Lightning?
> >
> > I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never
> > seem to get the right
> > "feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always
> > liked about the Cessna is
> > the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get
> > a very fine resolution
> > with it as opposed to using a trim motor.
> >
> > I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and
> > installing it later.
> >
> > Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing
> > the stock system, but
> > then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is
> > flying.
> >
> > Jim!
> >
>
>
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
>
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