---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/03/07: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:14 AM - Elevator trim (Jim Langley) 2. 07:51 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Charles Dewey) 3. 08:07 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Jim Langley) 4. 08:53 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Brian Whittingham) 5. 10:39 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Charles Dewey) 6. 11:40 AM - Re: Elevator trim (Jim Langley) 7. 02:41 PM - Canopy Latch (Mefford, Walt) 8. 04:03 PM - Re: Elevator trim (rickss) 9. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: Elevator trim (Brian Whittingham) 10. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Manual Trim Wheel (Jim Langley) 11. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Manual Trim Wheel (Jim Langley) 12. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: Manual Trim Wheel (Brian Whittingham) 13. 06:35 PM - Re: Elevator trim (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 14. 07:03 PM - Re: Elevator trim (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 15. 10:36 PM - Re: Elevator trim (Johnny Thompson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:35 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Lightning-List: Elevator trim Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel, (like the one used in the RANS) in their Lightning? I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never seem to get the right "feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always liked about the Cessna is the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get a very fine resolution with it as opposed to using a trim motor. I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and installing it later. Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing the stock system, but then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is flying. Jim! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:44 AM PST US From: Charles Dewey Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator trim Let me know what you come up with for a super secure canopy latch. It would be nice to know you could fly the Lightning to Mexico and not worry aout getting your electronics ripped off. charles --- Jim Langley wrote: > Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel, > (like the one used in the > RANS) in their Lightning? > > I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never > seem to get the right > "feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always > liked about the Cessna is > the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get > a very fine resolution > with it as opposed to using a trim motor. > > I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and > installing it later. > > Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing > the stock system, but > then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is > flying. > > Jim! > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:20 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator trim I already have a concept in mind. I would love to use the kit that is used for the Legacy if it would fit. On 10/3/07, Charles Dewey wrote: > > > Let me know what you come up with for a super secure > canopy latch. It would be nice to know you could fly > the Lightning to Mexico and not worry aout getting > your electronics ripped off. charles > --- Jim Langley wrote: > > > Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel, > > (like the one used in the > > RANS) in their Lightning? > > > > I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never > > seem to get the right > > "feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always > > liked about the Cessna is > > the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get > > a very fine resolution > > with it as opposed to using a trim motor. > > > > I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and > > installing it later. > > > > Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing > > the stock system, but > > then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is > > flying. > > > > Jim! > > > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:25 AM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Elevator trim I would like to see this Legacy mod canopy latch on a Lightning: http://www.aerochia.com/kits_aft-canopy.html This would allow the occupant to "get out" of the Lightning with a parachute a lot easier than with a forward hinged canopy. It also has an external emergency release for safety. I'm not certain but I think this can all be locked with a key to keep people out and looks pretty sturdy. I doubt this would fit by itself, but with some modification or if somebody could be found to fabricate the parts specifically for the Lightning it'd be great! See what you all think, Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:00 AM PST US From: Charles Dewey Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Elevator trim brian- i like that canopy. it seems safer in a mid -air emergency if you have to jump out charles --- Brian Whittingham wrote: > Whittingham > > > I would like to see this Legacy mod canopy latch on > a Lightning: > http://www.aerochia.com/kits_aft-canopy.html This > would allow the occupant to "get out" of the > Lightning with a parachute a lot easier than with a > forward hinged canopy. It also has an external > emergency release for safety. I'm not certain but I > think this can all be locked with a key to keep > people out and looks pretty sturdy. I doubt this > would fit by itself, but with some modification or > if somebody could be found to fabricate the parts > specifically for the Lightning it'd be great! See > what you all think, Brian W. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the > Messenger Caf. Stop by today. > http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:40 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator trim Interesting. The concept of the standard Legacy latch, but in reverse. On 10/3/07, Brian Whittingham wrote: > > dashvii@hotmail.com> > > > I would like to see this Legacy mod canopy latch on a Lightning: > http://www.aerochia.com/kits_aft-canopy.html This would allow the > occupant to "get out" of the Lightning with a parachute a lot easier than > with a forward hinged canopy. It also has an external emergency release for > safety. I'm not certain but I think this can all be locked with a key to > keep people out and looks pretty sturdy. I doubt this would fit by itsel f, > but with some modification or if somebody could be found to fabricate the > parts specifically for the Lightning it'd be great! See what you all thi nk, > Brian W. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf=E9. Sto p > by today. > > http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ OctWLtagline > =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:40 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Canopy Latch From: "Mefford, Walt" The Diamond DA-20 has a locking latch system that would probably work. Walt Mefford Silverton, OR ------------------------- This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the s ole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this e -mail or any attachment is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies. Thank you for your cooperation ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:27 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Elevator trim From: "rickss" Interesting that you mentioned the manual trim wheel. When I went up to Green Landings for a demo flight with Ryan, we both agreed that we would like a manual trim wheel, too....well I should speak for Ryan, but I would like it -Rick [quote="pequeajim"]Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel, (like the one used in the RANS) in their Lightning? I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never seem to get the right "feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always liked about the Cessna is the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get a very fine resolution with it as opposed to using a trim motor. I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and installing it later. Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing the stock system, but then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is flying. Jim! > [b] -------- Cherokee driver, but feeling the need for speed! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137942#137942 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:24 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Elevator trim My thoughts are that I love the convienience of having an electric trim on the stick. I never have to take my hands off the throttle and stick. If I had it my way I'd wire as much stuff as was ever used in takeoff and landi ng into the stick and a couple of things for convienience such as a comm fl ip switch. Now having said that, the benefits of a trim wheel are obvious. You get a feel for the air loads your trimming off and can fine tune that . The Lightning is light enough on the controls that you could fly it with out trim, although after a while it would start to wear you out. So you pr obably don't have much trim when you're working on the final approach to la nding. Manual trim wheel also is a simplified system that allows for a red undancy. The same thing could be said for manual flaps. I'm not sure what Arion has in store for the future of the Lightning anymore since I am no l onger living up there, but it is an Experimental, build it the way you want it. The more "features" that are offered in the kit, most likely the high er the cost of the kit will become. Right now the Lightning is offered at a good and reasonable price, but with cost increase comes buyer decrease at some point. The Lightning was built to be flown, built, and own by as wid e of audience as possible. Just my .02 Brian W. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ' together at last. - Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL10062 6971033 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:03 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Manual Trim Wheel Yeah, although I like lots of stuff electric, there is something to be said for a manual trim wheel. Even though the aircraft can be flown "hands off" as many put it, rarely does an electric trim, (if ever) supply the resolution that one gets from a manual trim wheel properly set up. That would be one addition that I would like to add later. Jim! -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rickss Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:03 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Elevator trim Interesting that you mentioned the manual trim wheel. When I went up to Green Landings for a demo flight with Ryan, we both agreed that we would like a manual trim wheel, too....well I should speak for Ryan, but I would like it -Rick [quote="pequeajim"]Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel, (like the one used in the RANS) in their Lightning? I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never seem to get the right "feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always liked about the Cessna is the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get a very fine resolution with it as opposed to using a trim motor. I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and installing it later. Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing the stock system, but then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is flying. Jim! > [b] -------- Cherokee driver, but feeling the need for speed! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=137942#137942 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:57 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Manual Trim Wheel I agree with you Brian that the convenience of having the trim on the stick is nice, but for me I like the fine tuning capabilities of a manual trim wheel. I will be building it stock and then trying some of these little things to see what I can add to an already great design. _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Whittingham Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:15 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Elevator trim My thoughts are that I love the convienience of having an electric trim on the stick. I never have to take my hands off the throttle and stick. If I had it my way I'd wire as much stuff as was ever used in takeoff and landing into the stick and a couple of things for convienience such as a comm flip switch. Now having said that, the benefits of a trim wheel are obvious. You get a feel for the air loads your trimming off and can fine tune that. The Lightning is light enough on the controls that you could fly it without trim, although after a while it would start to wear you out. So you probably don't have much trim when you're working on the final approach to landing. Manual trim wheel also is a simplified system that allows for a redundancy. The same thing could be said for manual flaps. I'm not sure what Arion has in store for the future of the Lightning anymore since I am no longer living up there, but it is an Experimental, build it the way you want it. The more "features" that are offered in the kit, most likely the higher the cost of the kit will become. Right now the Lightning is offered at a good and reasonable price, but with cost increase comes buyer decrease at some point. The Lightning was built to be flown, built, and own by as wide of audience as possible. Just my .02 Brian W. _____ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook - together at last. Get it now! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:11 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Manual Trim Wheel Jim, If I had a Lightning of my own I would probably do the same. I like tin kering too much to leave it all stock. I like redundancy in my planes too. It might be overkill in a light airplane, if you're not flying IFR and wh atever, but I just like redundant systems. I wouldn't think a trim wheel w ould be too hard to add in later. I have flown a Lightning where the bunge es slipped off the trim and didn't have any trim. Just had to fly it a lit tle like a tailwheel since the landing wanted to let the nosewheel smack do wn. The forces weren't too bad. I also flew one with a messed up trim sys tem which is a whole other story, but basically the plane was trimming back wards in terms of stick forces getting heavier when they should've been get ting lighter. So we reversed our thinking we still ran out of trim to main tain level. Again it was fine b/c of the stick forces. You can fly hands off and I did almost all of my flying that I got in Rick's plane using two fingers. Just really a pleasure to fly. That particular trim was sensitiv e, but you just needed a quick tap of the trim button. It wasn't so bad. I did get the pleasure to fly several different customer's planes and got a chance to see different ways that people did things. Flew with different cockpit displays, hatch designs, switch placement. It's interesting to see different ways that people decide to do things. Rick, did you ever get yo ur wheelpants put on? Also, if anybody is interested I have a CFI lesson plan that I came up for PRIMARY systems failures. Now probably none of you will ever have any of t hese kinds of failures in a lifetime of flying unless you get shot at or fl y at high G a lot, but even primary control failures are very survivable. I didn't come up with this stuff, just read through various articles and ab out 90-100 pages of info about these situations. They were written mostly by well known aerobatics champs. (think about that, really twitchy planes, full span ailerons, and landing them safely) I know that Nick probably ha s seen and prepared for all of this, Buzz has done a lot of the same. Did you guys get any training on control systems failures in the Air force or d id you just send it back to the taxpayers? Good Discussions and bouncing o f ideas on here! Brian W. From: pequeajim@gmail.comTo: lightning-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Light ning-List: Re: Manual Trim WheelDate: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:49:12 -0400 I agree with you Brian that the convenience of having the trim on the stick is nice, but for me I like the fine tuning capabilities of a manual trim w heel. I will be building it stock and then trying some of these little thi ngs to see what I can add to an already great design. From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian WhittinghamSent: Wednesday, Octo ber 03, 2007 7:15 PMTo: lightning-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Lightning- List: Re: Elevator trim My thoughts are that I love the convienience of having an electric trim on the stick. I never have to take my hands off the throttle and stick. If I had it my way I'd wire as much stuff as was ever used in takeoff and landi ng into the stick and a couple of things for convienience such as a comm fl ip switch. Now having said that, the benefits of a trim wheel are obvious. You get a feel for the air loads your trimming off and can fine tune that . The Lightning is light enough on the controls that you could fly it with out trim, although after a while it would start to wear you out. So you pr obably don't have much trim when you're working on the final approach to la nding. Manual trim wheel also is a simplified system that allows for a red undancy. The same thing could be said for manual flaps. I'm not sure what Arion has in store for the future of the Lightning anymore since I am no l onger living up there, but it is an Experimental, build it the way you want it. The more "features" that are offered in the kit, most likely the high er the cost of the kit will become. Right now the Lightning is offered at a good and reasonable price, but with cost increase comes buyer decrease at some point. The Lightning was built to be flown, built, and own by as wid e of audience as possible. Just my .02 Brian W. Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ' together at last. Get it now! _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!- Play Star Shuffle:- the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc t ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:26 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator trim Just to make sure everyone understands the Lightning's elevator trim system, here are a few words. First off it should probably be correctly called a pitch trim system since the Lightning does not have an elevator trim tab. What it does have is a bungee cord loop set up that helps the pilot pull on the elevator trim push pull rod. The electric trim motor (same type motor as the flap motor) pulls on the bungee loop that in turn helps relieve pitch pressures. Very simple system that is infinitely adjustable with the up and down buttons on the top of the stick grip. To change to a pitch trim wheel would greatly complicate the system since where the bungee is located could not be reached by the pilot in flight, so you would have to completely redesign the entire set up. Added complexity will add weight, and in my mind you are fixing a problem that does not exist. My recommendation would be to fly it like it is and see if you like it. Most store bought aircraft trim systems use rather long cables and pullies that at best have quite a bit of slop. This system does not. Change it if you want, but be prepared to come up with a much more complex set up. Now having said the above, I have found one down side to the bungee system set up. Over a period of time (and higher temperatures) the bungee will loose some of it's strength and need to be adjusted or replaced. Plan on replacing the bungee about ever two to three years. The bungee material is readily available in the "aircraft parts" section of any hardware store, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. It is inexpensive and easy to replace. If you really want to "improve" your pitch trim system. Replace the bungee with some sort of coiled spring set up. However you will probably have to buy "mucho dollars" worth of different coil springs to finally come up with the right one. Maybe the Tennessee guys had it right the first time, since bungee loops can easily be adjusted for more or less strength by making the loop larger or smaller and it really is inexpensive. Yep, the KISS principal at work. But as I have said before, it is your airplane. Build it like you want it, but plan on added time and possible added dollars. YMMV. Blue Skies, Buz ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:18 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator trim In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:37:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, N1BZRich@aol.com writes: What it does have is a bungee cord loop set up that helps the pilot pull on the elevator trim push pull rod. I just noticed a mistake in the above sentence - to correct it take out the word trim. Sorry bout that, but didn't want to confuse anyone. The bungee pitch trim system helps the pilot pull on the elevator push/pull rod that runs from behind the seat to the elevator control horn. Buz ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:24 PM PST US From: "Johnny Thompson" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator trim I have installed a different latching system that connects to 4 points and door handles ( not completed yet). I can lock the aircraft up on one or both sides on the canopy but you can still get into the aircraft to take what you want with one blow of a hammer, and they do that. The main purpose of the new latches was: 1. To make the canopy seal better and not move during flight. 2. Had some old parts around and had nothing to do for a month. I will say if you are going to modify your canopy latch it is much easier to do it before the glass goes on. It is a lot of trouble and extra cost so think about it. Me, I was bored so I did it. I am finally near the end of the build, Started in January and took my time making lots of changes, most of them costing me weight and amps. Hope to get the Inspection in the about 30 days. I would like to hear what changes people have been making on their Ligntnings. Here are some of the changes I have made and items I have added. Modified new type seat pans, built tilting seat backs with headrest, installed 5 point seat belts with inertia locking reels. New canopy lock system. Installed eng pre-oiler, parking brakes and sound proofing. Dual throttle, larger control sticks (1-1/8") to fit some old cobra (AH1G) grips I had. Can work flaps, trim, autopilot, change freq and swap radios from the grips Put an airspeed limit switch on the flaps, automatic trim with flap change (FPS) Set up flaps for six positions. Set circuit breakers on removable panels for maintenance. Full IFR, night, etc. I will do dynamic balancing. As for the Paint and upholstery, well all I'll say is it is different and I am having fun at 60. All this in a light sport. Now I start weighing. Pray for me!!!! This has been a fun build, people at Lightning have been great. Greg Hobbs was great to work with and Crystal Hobbs really knows how to cook. Johnny Thompson N8WN Tucson area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Dewey" Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator trim > > Let me know what you come up with for a super secure > canopy latch. It would be nice to know you could fly > the Lightning to Mexico and not worry aout getting > your electronics ripped off. charles > --- Jim Langley wrote: > > > Has anyone installed a manual elevator trim wheel, > > (like the one used in the > > RANS) in their Lightning? > > > > I'm not a big fan of electric trim motors as I never > > seem to get the right > > "feel" when setting the trim. One thing I always > > liked about the Cessna is > > the manual trim wheel and the fact that you can get > > a very fine resolution > > with it as opposed to using a trim motor. > > > > I was thinking of buying the RANS trim setup and > > installing it later. > > > > Same thing with the canopy latch. We're installing > > the stock system, but > > then I will modify it later afer the aircraft is > > flying. > > > > Jim! > > > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.