Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:12 AM - Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 (Malcolm Ferguson)
2. 04:07 AM - Update from UK SC owner (James, Clive R)
3. 06:03 AM - Cirrus SRS Light Sport (Charles Dewey)
4. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Retractable gear (nick otterback)
5. 04:56 PM - Re: Cirrus SRS Light Sport (Kayberg@aol.com)
6. 08:24 PM - Yes I'm building a Zenith........ sigh (Mark Stauffer)
7. 09:00 PM - Re: Yes I'm building a Zenith........ sigh (N1BZRich@aol.com)
8. 09:34 PM - Zenith ///////// Lightning (Charles Dewey)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Fuel Injected Jabiru 3300 |
Now the Lightning list is at last starting to venture out from the "you have
got a fantastic paint scheme" into the sort of discussion that may result in
someone moving up to the next level of performance.
Being an old rev head from way back I just love it when turbo charging, fuel
injection, super charging come up. But I have to agree with Doug's general
thrust. Its fantastic to look at on some else's plane and chew the fat over
but I don't want electronic fuel injection on mine if I'm taking the wife
for a trip at the weekend. I got a bad enough roasting when I ran 1 tank dry
before changing tanks, without informing the Boss. I just hate to think of
the response if we had several minutes of silence. Actually I would not be
in trouble till we got onto the ground, then I would have to turn off my
hearing aids.
FADEC as used on the Lycoming will become a way of life ultimately but it
costs big bickies due to the development costs. Just think about the
software required to decide is a sensor reading hot or has it failed out of
speck. Do "I"(the ECU) cut back the fuel to that cylinder or not. The MAP
sensor is reading low. Is the sensor faulty or not. I have had an ECU
failure. Do I relinquish control to the backup one if there is one or do I
go into the limp home mode.(on take off?)
In Europe a Diamond twin with thielert diesels took of with flat batteries
after a jump start. Retraction of the undercarriage and flaps dropped the
voltage enough that the ECU's shut down both engines after takeoff. Diamond
says it is Thielerts fault and vice versa.
You can see why fuel injection on a Lycosaurus is mechanical.
Turbo charging is another matter. It does not have the problem of having
multiple failure points requiring multiple redundant systems. Again why it
has found its way onto mainstream aero engines. Apart from plumbing issues
heat dissipation is the biggest problem. Ask yourself does my engine run on
the cool side or not. Very few engines do. So some re-design is necessary.
Also has the advantage of maintaining full power to high altitude, although
cooling really becomes a problem at reduced air densities. Turbo charging
can be a real benefit as the speed increases by about 1.6%/1000ft for a
given horsepower. So at FL150 your TAS can be 25% higher for the same
horsepower.
Interestingly some of your(US) military high altitude drones use a triple
stage turbo charged Rotax 914's and can reach above 80,000 feet with a prop
drive. I think I have seen that they are pensioned off after as little as
200-400 hours. Rotax have been fiddling with fuel injection for several
years but has not released it.
Ultimately the easiest speed increase comes from the airframe refinements.eg
Zodiac/Lightning
Even a 20% increase in hp does not give a big increase in speed. Look at
Darryl Greenmeyer's Lancair.It is twin turbo, methanol and water injection
reputed to be turning out around 700hp and 400mph- a little over twice
Buzz's Esqual top speed on 125 hp.
Keep the pressure on Arion for refinements.
Wow I hate it when I get on an interesting topic.
Malcolm Ferguson
Message 2
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| Subject: | Update from UK SC owner |
This from the first customer SC to fly in the UK:
I flew the Sportcruiser a week ago and was pleasantly surprised, the
power from the Rotax was more than adequate, I wasn't able to properly
asses the climb but seem to be better than 800 fpm, however, the cruise
was good at an honest 115 knots, that's at 4800 rpm (75%) and take off
from concrete was - into 10-12 mph wind - about 100 meters.
As far as I know there are two 3300 jab SC's in the build, one in the
North Midlands and the other South of London, will be interesting to see
what the benefit turns out to be!.
I quite liked the look of the SC but am not a fan of the Rotax although
in certain airframes there seemed to be little difference between the
912S and the 3300, as Joe says above will be interesting to see what the
difference is. Joe flew behind a Jabiru 2200 before.
Regards, Clive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Cirrus SRS Light Sport |
I can't wait until Cirrus version of the light sport,
the SRS, comes out. It looks a bit like the
Lightning, with wing tips and a full airframe
parachute. It's not as aerodynamic, and uses the Rotax
100, which begs the question, why? With the price
increase they just put in effect for their base model
4-seater, fromm $199,900 to $214,900, I bet that their
light sport is easily going to push 150K with any kind
of decent options. With a price increase like that,
the price increase at Arion doesn't look as bad. If
their light sport is as boring to fly as their
4-seater, the only place I see their light sport is in
flight schools.
--- "James, Clive R" <clive.james@uk.bp.com> wrote:
> This from the first customer SC to fly in the UK:
>
> I flew the Sportcruiser a week ago and was
> pleasantly surprised, the
> power from the Rotax was more than adequate, I
> wasn't able to properly
> asses the climb but seem to be better than 800 fpm,
> however, the cruise
> was good at an honest 115 knots, that's at 4800 rpm
> (75%) and take off
> from concrete was - into 10-12 mph wind - about 100
> meters.
> As far as I know there are two 3300 jab SC's in the
> build, one in the
> North Midlands and the other South of London, will
> be interesting to see
> what the benefit turns out to be!.
>
> I quite liked the look of the SC but am not a fan of
> the Rotax although
> in certain airframes there seemed to be little
> difference between the
> 912S and the 3300, as Joe says above will be
> interesting to see what the
> difference is. Joe flew behind a Jabiru 2200 before.
>
> Regards, Clive
>
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Retractable gear |
You won't see a retract version of the lightning. At least in its current configuration.
I never close the door on further developments, however the current
configuration of the lightning is what we intended it to be. A higher horsepower
higher speed version would benefit well from this but that is not what we designed
the lightning to do for now. Even from that stand point look at how well
the legacey FG performs with a well faired fixed gear! doesnt make a very good
argument for a retract does it....
nick
Charles Dewey <cdewey6969@yahoo.com> wrote:
Any plans for a retractable gear Lightning?
--- Brian Whittingham wrote:
>
> Charles,
> Not a problem. It might be worth at least
> arranging fuel as we guarantee that it'll be there
> and can even tell you a rate before hand. Also if
> we have your schedule and you need or want to add
> services other than fuel then we'd be on the same
> page. Flight planning, other than permits and
> customs is pretty easy, but weather can be kind of
> tricky out there. We've got a lot of experienced
> people and are a 24/7 365 day company. One thing
> that we did the other day was arrange for a group of
> 150 passengers to be transported from Raleigh to
> Charleston after Spirit Airlines had to divert due
> to weather. We arranged for ground transport within
> an hour for that many people at 2am in the morning.
> We found a bus company that had an after hours
> number and got a couple of buses and the guy called
> all his friends to bring personal SUV's. That's
> just an example of how having a team of people that
> know how to think outside the box. It really does
> benefit when traveling international and outside the
> familiar comfort zone. Brian W.> Date: Sun, 13 Jan
> 2008 21:21:29 -0800> From: cdewey6969@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: Lightning-List: RE: Lightning gas
> tanks/// extending range/// Caribbean Fuel $$$> To:
> lightning-list@matronics.com> > --> Lightning-List
> message posted by: Charles Dewey
> > > Brian, Thanks for hte tip;
> I'll file tghis email away> until I need it.
> Charles> --- Brian Whittingham
> wrote:> > > > > Charles,> > I've had a lot of
> friends flying around the> > Caribbean and
> Netherland Antilles and never heard of> > anybody
> being greated with machine guns. I'm not> > saying
> that it has never happened, just not> > regularly.
> Costa Rica is a very poor place though. > > I work
> at a company that does International Trip> >
> Support, mostly for private and charter aircraft. >
> > If you're really worried about it contact one of>
> > these guys and do a fuel and or ground handling
> only> > request. I work for Baseops International,
> which is> > owned by World Fuel and owns Avcard. I
> talk to St.> > Thomas on a nearly daily basis. When
> I was in> > college we'd fly way out in the Bahama
> islands and> > never had problems to where we had to
> bribe or> > anything. What we did run into is
> maintenance> > issues. Blow out a tire on a Cessna
> on landing,> > gotta fly another one in to replace
> it. I know that> > it would not be legal in the US
> to bring in your own> > auto fuel unless the airport
> specifically authorized> > it in their official
> airport rules (has a different> > name but forget it
> now) Being international it> > might be just fine to
> bring auto fuel though. Use> > your best judgement
> but I'd about fill some jugs,> > fuel when nobody is
> looking and go for it! As far> > as $5 for avgas on
> islands, where do you live at? > > It's right at
> that here in TX! When flying around> > Central
> America and the Caribbean islands you also> > have
> to watch out for permits. Maybe that's why> > some
> of the horror stories are from. You have> > landing
> permits, overflight permits, customs, etc. > >
> Overflight of Cuba doesn't mean over the land or> >
> even off the coast like what it is in the US. > >
> Panama has a wide spread ADIZ which extends many> >
> times the size of the entire country. My company> >
> can arrange all of this, plus contract fuel if> >
> you're interested. See:> >>
>
http://www.wfscorp.com/wfscorp/services/aviation_fp.html>
> > and see here: http://www.baseops.com/ You can do>
> > all your flight planning and set up your own
> stuff,> > but run the risk of violating airspaces
> and such. > > We can track you when you're in the
> air and arrange> > services to accomodate
> accordingly. With our huge> > databases and personal
> contacts it is quicker and> > easier than if you
> were to do it. One of the guys> > that I work with
> has some friends that are run a> > ground handling
> supervisory company in that part of> > the world and
> makes it easier to set up and arrange> > than an
> individual. We also keep monthly Cuba> > overflight
> permissions on file for those that can't> > wait.
> Just a thought, do your homework, lock your> >
> plane, and fly safe. Brian W. > Date: Sun, 13 Jan> >
> 2008 20:27:40 -0800> From: cdewey6969@yahoo.com>> >
> Subject: Lightning-List: RE: Lightning gas tanks///>
> > extending range/// Caribbean Fuel $$$> To:> >
> lightning-list@matronics.com> > --> Lightning-List>
> > message posted by: Charles Dewey> >
> > > Anyone out there ever> >
> flown from Fl. deep into the> Caribbean? Trying to>
> > do some research and get> prepared. Some threads
> say> > that be prepared to pay> lots of bribes and
> $5 avgas> > , even if you're just> stopping for
> fuel, plus big $> > like 45$ fee for> bringing the
> fuel truck to your> > plane. Dominican> Republic is
> said to be bad; they> > will greet you with a>
> machine gun and an extended> > hand. Does anyone
> remember> the name of the> > collapsible fuel tank
> they had @ Sun n> Fun 1 or 2> > years ago. It
> greatly extended range;> thought that> > it would be
> a good idea to avoid landing> too much> > enroute to
> St. Thomas. If I remember> correctly, it> > could be
> stored in the cabin and had a> line that> > somehow
> went to your gas tank. Also, anyone> know of> > a
> way to get more fuel creatively? I guess I'm> too> >
> late to get the Xtra capacity tanks from arion now>>
> > that my plane is done. The good thing about the>>
> > Lightning is b/c it taked 93 super auto gas, it> >
> should> be easy to get on any island. I've read> >
> horror stories> of people landing on an island only>
> > to find out the> avgas won't arrive for a week.
> Are> > airports that> sell avgas allowing of people
> to haul> > in a 20 gallon> jug of auto gas- or is
> that> > something not frowned upon> at airports?
> Charles> >> > > > > --- Brian Whittingham
> > > wrote:> > > > > I agree! I
> would've loved to have> > been able to do> > that
> kind of a thing with my dad> > when I was young. > >
> I remember several times> > working on tractors,> >
> combines, and cotton pickers> > back in the day
> with> > him when I was young and> > loved that. I
> still would> > really love to build a> > plane. > >
> > > On the previous topic about the> > Odyssey and
> the> > Dynon. I know the Dynon that we> > had in
> the> > prototype would get lost if turing one> > way
> and then> > whipping it the other way. It was> >
> like an> > electronic version of a gyro tumbling.> >
> I've also> > heard of that particular version> >
> getting lost in> > turbulence. Not knocking Dynon
> as> > I've only had> > experience with that one
> model. I> > believe the> > reasoning was that it
> only had a dual> > axis solid> > state gyro where
> the GR had a 3 axis.> > I have no> > idea about the
> Odyssey and what it's> > capable of. I> > know that
> the GR stuff had all of> > the same listed> >
> usability and programibility as> > far as I can
> recall.> > One added benefit of using> > that
> equipment is also> > that the Arion folks know> >
> that system and can help> > troubleshoot or can get>
> > it replaced easily. Just a> > few little thoughts
> on> > panel layout. Brian W.> > > > > > From:> >
> N1BZRich@aol.comDate: Sun, 13 Jan 2008> > 22:44:52>
> > -0500Subject: Re: Lightning-List:> > StartedTo:> >
> lightning-list@matronics.com> > > > > > In a
> message> > dated 1/13/2008 10:05:27 A.M. Eastern> >
> Standard> > Time, cjk129@cox.net writes:> > However,
> with a> > wife, three kids, a dog and a full> > time
> job, my> > ambition is to fly in spring 2009. > > >
> > Great,> > Colin. I hope it becomes a family
> project so> > that> > they feel they are part of the
> process. Don't> >> > know how old your kids are, but
> even at a young age>> > > they can do some things
> like hand you tools. And>> > > this spring of 2009
> is certainly a realistic> > goal.> > Buz> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > Start the year off right.> > Easy ways to stay in
> shape> > in the new year. > > >> > > > > > >>> >>
>
_________________________________________________________________>>
> > > Get the power of Windows + Web with the new> >
> Windows> > Live.> >>> >>
>
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> > > > > Looking for last minu==========> > > > >>
>
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> Vista + Windows Live.> >>
>
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> > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and >
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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> _========================> _===============> > >
>
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> Live.
>
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cirrus SRS Light Sport |
In a message dated 1/22/2008 9:05:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cdewey6969@yahoo.com writes:
I can't wait until Cirrus version of the light sport,
the SRS, comes out. It looks a bit like the
Lightning, with wing tips and a full airframe
parachute. It's not as aerodynamic, and uses the Rotax
100, which begs the question, why? With the price
increase they just put in effect for their base model
4-seater, fromm $199,900 to $214,900, I bet that their
light sport is easily going to push 150K with any kind
of decent options. With a price increase like that,
the price increase at Arion doesn't look as bad. If
their light sport is as boring to fly as their
4-seater, the only place I see their light sport is in
flight schools.
But that is the motivation. By offering a light sport for use in flight
schools, they hope to sell more 4 seaters. Same thing Cessna did and hopes to
do. They made very little on 150's but the step up sold the hell out of the
172 and 182. Didn't hurt the 310 and 340 either.
Doug
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 6
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| Subject: | Yes I'm building a Zenith........ sigh |
Well since my family's name and honor has been brought up on this list I
guess I must respond just to save face!!
Hi, my name is Mark and I'm building a Zenith 601XL. (You all respond "Hi
Mark") The first step on the road to recovery is admitting you have a
problem.
A little bit of history about me and the Zenith. I helped a friend of mine
build an old model (before match drilling and very few formed parts) RV-6
when I lived in VA. I decided that I wanted to build a plane since I figured
on E6 pay I couldn't afford a "real" plane. I researched for over 2 years
going to Sun n Fun twice and Oshkosh. I even talked to Pete at Oshkosh about
the Esqual but honestly, at that point in time I couldn't afford the initial
high $20k that the kit cost. I liked the Rans products but was worried about
a possible lack of hangar space with a "tube and fabric" airplane. The
initial kit cost of an RV was good but the finishing costs (finishing kit,
engine, avionics) were a tough obstacle. I settled on the Zenith as a good
compromise for me and my situation.
I have over 1200 hours in my kit over a span of 5 years now. I'm within a
couple hundred hours of finishing it and hope to have it flying sometime
this year. I have an early Zenith kit. Almost no holes drilled and lots of
sheet metal to measure and cut.
The funny thing is that the Zenith is what lead me to come work for Pete and
Nick. After another couple of years of research and pestering Pete at Sun n
Fun I decided on a Jabiru engine. In Aug of '05 I attended their first
engine seminar. In October I heard that they were looking for a builders
assistance center manager and met with Pete about the job the week before
Thanksgiving. I went back to the Army and dropped my retirement paperwork
for a 1 Oct 06 retirement. In June of '06 I moved my house to Shelbyville
and started working for Arion while on transition leave from the Army. The
rest, as they say, is history.
I love flying the Lightning and I'm equally excited about flying my Zenith
when I get it done.
So there you have it. Now, on a side note. Whenever somebody wants a pretty
aluminum console or baffle made guess who they come to??!!
Have a great evening!
Mark
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Whittingham
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 5:02 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: SC / Lightning comparison plus other comments
I think that Mark is a "Builder's builder", meaning that he likes a
challenge. I hear that his next project is going to be the Spruce Goose II.
(100,000,000 man hours to complete) Working on these time consuming
airplanes helps him to help you guys in the builder assist program because
he's been there and seen that. He does enjoy flying the Lightning in his
time off to unwind though. Isn't that right Mark :-)
Brian W.
_____
Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star
power. Play now!
<http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Yes I'm building a Zenith........ sigh |
Since I think I was the one that "outed" Mark let me add a few words in his
behalf. First off, I have been to Mark's house and garage work shop in
Shelbyville and looked at his project. At the time, our EAA Chapter in
Williamsburg, VA (Chapter 156) was building a Zenith 601XL and I figured I might
pick
up some good ideas and suggestions since Mark had been at the project for
about 3 years at that time. The first thing I noticed was that Marks workmanship
was superb. Every piece and part that he had completed was absolutely first
rate. I am an EAA Technical Counselor (and Flight Advisor) and have visited
many projects in the past to evaluate the builders work and to make
suggestions if I thought any change was required. In Mark's case, I was very
impressed with all he had completed and his overall plan to finish the project
-
first rate work. I might add that having been to the Arion hangar numerous
times over the past 2 1/2 years, I have also seen the results of Mark's work on
Lightning kits being assembled there as well. Again, first rate. Heck, he
would not be working for Pete and Nick if that was not the case. All the
Arion people are dedicated to producing an excellent built airplane with
outstanding flying qualities.
Sorry mark, now everyone knows that you work with on a metal airplane during
the evenings. Well, except on the weekends. That is when he chases women.
Blue Skies,
Buz
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 8
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| Subject: | Zenith ///////// Lightning |
I actually like the STOL Zenith 4 seater. I thought it
was a great plane when plane shopping at Sun n Fun. If
I could have 2 planes, that would be a good people and
stuff mover. My flight instructor in Winter Haven was
advising against Zenith for what he considered to be a
flawed wing. I can't remember why exactly he had
concerns about it, but I will find out about it and
post it. If anyone knows him, he is John Amundsen,
owner of Tailwheels, Etc. Flight School @ Gilbert
Field.
The 4-seater STOL is used a lot in Africa and in
the Amazon to get supplies in and people out for
medical care. Because they take off and land in a
rididulously small amount, and have a virtually
vertical takeoff, they can get into tiny airstrips the
Lightning could never access. Check their website out
to see the video of a takeoff.
Because the Zenith was all metal, I knew it would
be a silly long build process. The Zenith price was so
good that it was tempting, but the Lightning swayed me
due to it is a fast build, much faster speedwise, and
much more fuel efficient AND it could be had with a
parachute. SO, it really was a no-brainer decision for
me which to choose.
I had to reconsile the fact that if I bought the
Zenith, I would be buying it more for others than
myself. I say this b/c 90% of the time, I will be
flying alone or with one other person. So a 4-seater
really wasn't necessary- but it would be great to have
the extra seats and storage when needed. I am also
trying hard to be the kind of guy who travels light.
There's nothing worse than hauling junk you wind up
never using. Not that I wouldn't haul uselful stuff in
the Zenith, I figured I could still be creative and
haul pleny of stuff in the Lightning when and if
needed. I see no problem hauling 150 lbs of groceries
instead of a passenger. It would just involve some
clever packing.
--- N1BZRich@aol.com wrote:
> Since I think I was the one that "outed" Mark let me
> add a few words in his
> behalf. First off, I have been to Mark's house and
> garage work shop in
> Shelbyville and looked at his project. At the time,
> our EAA Chapter in
> Williamsburg, VA (Chapter 156) was building a Zenith
> 601XL and I figured I might pick
> up some good ideas and suggestions since Mark had
> been at the project for
> about 3 years at that time. The first thing I
> noticed was that Marks workmanship
> was superb. Every piece and part that he had
> completed was absolutely first
> rate. I am an EAA Technical Counselor (and Flight
> Advisor) and have visited
> many projects in the past to evaluate the builders
> work and to make
> suggestions if I thought any change was required.
> In Mark's case, I was very
> impressed with all he had completed and his overall
> plan to finish the project -
> first rate work. I might add that having been to
> the Arion hangar numerous
> times over the past 2 1/2 years, I have also seen
> the results of Mark's work on
> Lightning kits being assembled there as well.
> Again, first rate. Heck, he
> would not be working for Pete and Nick if that was
> not the case. All the
> Arion people are dedicated to producing an excellent
> built airplane with
> outstanding flying qualities.
>
> Sorry mark, now everyone knows that you work with on
> a metal airplane during
> the evenings. Well, except on the weekends. That
> is when he chases women.
>
> Blue Skies,
> Buz
>
>
>
> **************Start the year off right. Easy ways
> to stay in shape.
>
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
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