---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/03/08: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:33 AM - Re: Gear legs (Bruce & Colleen Keen) 2. 04:45 AM - Manual (Tex Mantell) 3. 05:20 AM - Re: The Lightning Builder's Manual (Kayberg@aol.com) 4. 05:55 AM - Silly Question (Jim Langley) 5. 06:08 AM - Re: Silly Question (Jim Langley) 6. 07:27 AM - Re: Longer Wing (Charles Dewey) 7. 07:35 AM - Re: Silly Question (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS) 8. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: Frapper Map (Jim Langley) 9. 07:49 AM - Re: Silly Question (Jim Langley) 10. 09:19 AM - Re: The Lightning Builder's Manual (Pete) 11. 10:50 AM - Re: Silly Question (Kayberg@aol.com) 12. 01:18 PM - Re: The Lightning Builder's Manual (Sales Email Account) 13. 01:38 PM - Re: (Charles Dewey) 14. 02:19 PM - Re: Gear legs (jeynon) 15. 05:42 PM - Re: The Lightning Builder's Manual (nick otterback) 16. 05:48 PM - Re: Gear legs (nick otterback) 17. 08:42 PM - Re: The Lightning Builder's Manual (Brian Whittingham) 18. 10:23 PM - Re: Gear legs (Steven Sundquist) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:38 AM PST US From: "Bruce & Colleen Keen" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Gear legs Hi John I used a Drill extention(14" one) with a scotchbrite pad wrapped opposite to turn direction (sufficient pad to be slightly larger then gear leg tube) and attached to female end (tied it on with lockwire ),Around this I attached a strip of Wet and Dry 80 grit(carb)Paper.You twist this into tube (dip in water) and use your elec drill to turn. Areas that you find as a tight spot when you put leg in is where you concentrate effort to.This worked well for me. Cheers BK ----- Original Message ----- From: "jeynon" Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Gear legs > > Is there some trick to inserting the gear legs into the spar box. I've > sanded the paint out of the tube, and loosened the nuts holding the spar > box to the fuselage. I've also done some sanding on the gear leg. I can > get it about halfway in with some difficulty, and back out with more > difficulty. I assume the answer is keep sanding the gear leg until it > goes in, but I thought I'd check here first. > > Thanks. > > John Eynon > Lightning #53 > Carbondale, Illinois > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162096#162096 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:08 AM PST US From: "Tex Mantell" Subject: Lightning-List: Manual There has been some comments about the builders manual lately and I can understand peoples frustration. I have the first kit out the door from Arion and its still not finished. But is not because of the manual. This is the third airplane I am building and I have seen alot of manuals from other manufactures. The Lightnings Manual is far above anything else out there. I believe that when you find a problem that's not clear in the manual, call or write Nick and the boys and offer some corrective criticism. Send them a better picture to be included in a update. We can all pitch in and make the best II've seen even better. Tex ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:42 AM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's Manual Since the writer of the below posting felt free to make what he perceived to be harsh criticism, I trust he wont mind if I return the favor. First, the effort on the Lightning builders manual is actually very good as compared to the rest of homebuilding. It has been a CONCERTED EFFORT and at considerable expense for a kitplane company that has shipped LESS THAN 100 kits. To have color pictures in a loose-leaf notebook page is exceptional for such a new company. To compare any of the Lightning to Van's products is to compare Ferrari to a Chevy truck. Of course Van's has sold a zillion kits (the Chevy). Not so hard to afford to work on the ol manual. But for years the Van's birds did not have good plans and paperwork, so there were many "support groups" formed. Entire EAA chapters were devoted to assisting people to actually complete a plane. Lots of complaints about the build manual. Not to mention that it normally took about 10 years to build one. But IMHO, the biggest issue isnt the manual but the builder. As the importer of a kitplane that has sold over 150 kits, I also got complaints about the build manual. At first they had a point, since the manual was in French! So a video was made to show EXACTLY how to build it. Then the manual was rewritten to be very explicit. AND there is a Yahoo group with 1,000 members. We STILL get calls from some builders about every detail.....on a bird that can be built in 150 -250 hours!!!! Every airplane has its build difficulties. The problem is that those vary depending on the builder. Van's deals with builder problems by SEVERELY LIMITING the time of day they will take builder calls. At least Arion will take your calls and TRY to assist. I would expect them to occasionally be preoccupied. Since the engine seminar is not given that often, I would not expect a repeat. It is too bad the writer wasted a weekend because he could not fit his rudder. I'm a little surprised that there was not something else to work on. But any builder of a plane would probably identify with the tone of frustration that comes through. I dont think the manual is the sole cause of it; there are few things that compare with the building of a possible aircraft. Building seems to be both a source of joy and anger at the same moment. Build manuals can easily be a lightning (?) rod for that frustration. Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 2/2/2008 10:59:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sales@billandruth.net writes: Hi one and all, First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person available because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result. If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than is being provided right now. I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an adequate response to that comment. If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product. I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s encountered so far. I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual. Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?) :-) **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:15 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Lightning-List: Silly Question Here's a silly question that is probably very simple to answer for all you Lightning owners who are flying your aircraft. I however have never owned and flown an airplane, let alone a composite one. So, the question may seem silly to you, but informative to me. Before departing for a flight, and after coming home, to get your Lightning out of, and back in to your hangar, you most likely manually move it out in the open taxiway. When flying a Cessna, I always used a tow bar and was told to NEVER pull the aircraft around by the prop, or the tail. This was to reduce stress and wear on those areas. With the Lightning, how do you safely move your airplane around? I've seen people sie on the tail, and back up. Is there any concern of introducing long term stress in this area? I know. More than one silly question.. Jim! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:45 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Silly Question Let me clarify the first part of my statement.. I have never owned "my own" airplane, let alone a composite one. See, I told you this was silly. (grin) _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Langley Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:51 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Silly Question Here's a silly question that is probably very simple to answer for all you Lightning owners who are flying your aircraft. I however have never owned and flown an airplane, let alone a composite one. So, the question may seem silly to you, but informative to me. Before departing for a flight, and after coming home, to get your Lightning out of, and back in to your hangar, you most likely manually move it out in the open taxiway. When flying a Cessna, I always used a tow bar and was told to NEVER pull the aircraft around by the prop, or the tail. This was to reduce stress and wear on those areas. With the Lightning, how do you safely move your airplane around? I've seen people sie on the tail, and back up. Is there any concern of introducing long term stress in this area? I know. More than one silly question.. Jim! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:28 AM PST US From: Charles Dewey Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Longer Wing Brian, Will a longer wing mean a faster plane? cd --- Brian Whittingham wrote: > > Charles, > They made an announcement, around Christmas time I > believe that they will be doing a longer winged > version of the Lightning. The results will be a > smoother cross country ride, an ability for the > sport model to come in at an even slower stalling > speed, and a longer wing means larger ailerons, > which means an even better roll rate. (which it'll > need more aileron to get the same rate with the > longer wing) From what I understand, the wing end > caps, for those who didn't glass them on will be > able to get just the new tips and new ailerons and > do an "upgrade" to their plane after the fact. > Pretty cool. Brian W.> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 > 20:48:57 -0800> From: cdewey6969@yahoo.com> Subject: > Lightning-List: Longer Wing> To: > lightning-list@matronics.com> > --> Lightning-List > message posted by: Charles Dewey > > > Brian- Why would they be > doing a longer wing?> CD> > > > > --- Brian > Whittingham wrote:> > > > > > > > Quote "Did you know there are no rudder stops to> > > limit rudder motion?" end quote > > > > There are > rudder stops. That's what the bulge on> > the rudder > with the flat edge does. I can't> > remember if it > touches on the horizontal or on the> > vertical tail > assembly, but when it's all together I> > gaurantee > there's a limit to rudder travel. > > > > As far as > the rest goes, I'm sure that you're right,> > that > one day that most Lightning's will have to be> > > built at home. At some point in the growth process> > > that will have to be the case as it's just not> > > feasable to have enough space and build assisstants> > > for a huge scale operation. I know that the > current> > build manuals were a lot to do with > building the> > prototype and therefore there are > some differences,> > but I'm willing to bet that > Nick and Mark et al will> > constantly be revising > this document. The plane> > itself is going through > many changes. Small things> > such as an updated and > improved canopy latch system> > to much bigger > changes like a new and longer wing. > > At some > point it will be more smaller than larger> > changes > being made and will make keeping up with a> > build > manual much easier.> > > > One thing that I would > suggest would be to make the> > build manual > available online and all updates to be> > saved > online at the same time that they are saved to> > > the PC. This way the users at home can download> > > Revision XXX dated MM/DD/YYYY and know that they> > > have the latest and greatest, even if the kit takes> > > them a year or more to build. Having the > Operating> > Manual online would probably be nice > too since a lot> > of people want a peek at > operating procedures and> > testing data. I know > that it's all easier said than> > done, but I think > would make for a user-friendly> > company. There's > still things that folks will find> > or confuse I'm > sure, but perhaps a good thing to> > try. Brian W.> > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:55:37 > -0700From:> > sales@billandruth.netTo: > vettin74@yahoo.com;> > > mark.stauffer1@gmail.comSubject: Lightning-List: > The> > Lightning Builder's Manual > > Hi one and > all,First, I want to say that at least> > one at > Arion got the humor in the "secret code> > phrase" > post regarding the builder's manual. That's> > a > good thing. However, this kit still lacks a> > > concerted effort to get the manual up to par with> > > the rest of the kit building providers out there. > > > The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in> > > the kit build process takes much of the fuss out > of> > the build and that is just fine. However, not> > > everyone can afford that route. Those of us who> > > want to build or who must build on our own, don't> > > have the benefit of the accumulated experience the> > > builder assist program provides. The manual and> > > tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I> > > called Arion about an elevator control horn install> > > question on Friday and there was not a single > person> > available because they all were in an > engine clinic.> > So, a wasted building weekend was > the result.If the> > Lightning is to be a real > success with the kit> > building community, a > quality builder's manual has> > to be produced and > soon. Otherwise, problems in the> > build process > could very well start to become a> > theme that will > negatively impact sales. I know> > that the company > wants to place a higher priority on> > getting this > done. I've been told that several> > times. But, lip > service does not produce results. > > Commitment to > the builder/buyer does and it helps> > everyone! The > stand alone builder will eventually> > dominate the > build process, in my view, and more> > Lightning > sales will result because of that fact. > > > Consequently, he/she deserves much more> > > consideration and respect than is being provided> > > right now.I know that many of you on the "list" > will> > find this to be a very harsh criticism of > Arion. I> > am sorry that I may have offended you > and them, if> > that is the case. However, I believe > that this kit> > has got the potential to take a big > chunk out of> > Van's market share. There is a > builder two hangars> > down building an RV-7A and > all he says when I> > discuss a building issue with > him is you don't have> > plans and therefore you > need a really good builder's> > manual. I don't have > an adequate response to that> > comment.If the > Lightning is going to really catch on> > with those > who have considered Van's kits, the> > manual will > need to be a much better product.I> > highly > encourage every stand alone builder to> > contact > Arion and communicate every single manual> > > deficiency you have encountered in the build > process> > and what you had to do to resolve the > problem/s> > encountered so far.I look forward to > the day when> > sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass > at Air Venture> > and give Van's "Air Force" a real > run for their> > money. That day will come much > sooner when everyone> > has access to a top-notch > builder's manual.Enough> > with the soap box, Bill > with kit #49 in mid sixties> > weather in Tucson > still working on the elevator> > control horn > install (Did you know there are no> > rudder stops > to limit rudder motion?) :-) > > > > > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word> > > scramble challenge with star power.> >> > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan> > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it n==> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:28 AM PST US From: "JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Silly Question Jim, As you know, there is no way to attach a tow bar to the Lightning nose gear; pulling it out of the hangar is done by pulling on the prop as close to the hub as possible. It doesn't take much force as it rolls easily on flat surfaces. Moving it backwards is a bit more challenging because of the swiveling nose wheel. The proper way is to push down on the tail just enough to get the nose wheel off the ground and then pull it backwards. The structure is very strong and if you put your hands close to the fuselage you will be exerting the force where it is strongest. Being rather lightweight myself, I use a canvas bag of shot which weighs 16 lbs and place it across the top of the fuselage just forward of the vertical stab to help me get the tail down. People who don't have tow bars handy when moving a Cessna backwards have been using the tail push method for years with no adverse effects if they push at the right spots. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Langley To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:51 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Silly Question Here's a silly question that is probably very simple to answer for all you Lightning owners who are flying your aircraft. I however have never owned and flown an airplane, let alone a composite one. So, the question may seem silly to you, but informative to me. Before departing for a flight, and after coming home, to get your Lightning out of, and back in to your hangar, you most likely manually move it out in the open taxiway. When flying a Cessna, I always used a tow bar and was told to NEVER pull the aircraft around by the prop, or the tail. This was to reduce stress and wear on those areas. With the Lightning, how do you safely move your airplane around? I've seen people sie on the tail, and back up. Is there any concern of introducing long term stress in this area? I know. More than one silly question.. Jim! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:16 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Frapper Map Nick: I deleted your pin by accident, sorry. Can you put it back on the map, and use red? Also, any other Lightning dealers might want to do the same. Jim! _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Langley Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:11 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Frapper Map Here are a few tips for entering your information. There are two color pins, (I can add more if needed) - Use yellow if you are a customer - Use red if you are a dealer/distributer Use the "shoutout" field to describe yourself, or add your web address. For instance Green Landings Flight Center www.greenlandings.com (Telephone number) The map is nto perfect and has some bugs, but it IS a great way to us to see at a glance where everyone is, and for new customers to gather information about distributers and customers. Jim! On 2/1/08, Jim Langley wrote: Boy, the map is filling up! It's nice to sit and watch it cycle through all of the different Lightning owners around the world. Keep it coming! http://www.frappr.com/?a=constellation_map &mapid=137439272225 It is an easy way to see where each lightning owner is. Jim! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:59 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Silly Question Thanks Linda. I've seen the tail push, and the modified "butt on tail" methods. They both seem to work well. I'm tall enough to use either. Jim! _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Silly Question Jim, As you know, there is no way to attach a tow bar to the Lightning nose gear; pulling it out of the hangar is done by pulling on the prop as close to the hub as possible. It doesn't take much force as it rolls easily on flat surfaces. Moving it backwards is a bit more challenging because of the swiveling nose wheel. The proper way is to push down on the tail just enough to get the nose wheel off the ground and then pull it backwards. The structure is very strong and if you put your hands close to the fuselage you will be exerting the force where it is strongest. Being rather lightweight myself, I use a canvas bag of shot which weighs 16 lbs and place it across the top of the fuselage just forward of the vertical stab to help me get the tail down. People who don't have tow bars handy when moving a Cessna backwards have been using the tail push method for years with no adverse effects if they push at the right spots. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Langley Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 8:51 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Silly Question Here's a silly question that is probably very simple to answer for all you Lightning owners who are flying your aircraft. I however have never owned and flown an airplane, let alone a composite one. So, the question may seem silly to you, but informative to me. Before departing for a flight, and after coming home, to get your Lightning out of, and back in to your hangar, you most likely manually move it out in the open taxiway. When flying a Cessna, I always used a tow bar and was told to NEVER pull the aircraft around by the prop, or the tail. This was to reduce stress and wear on those areas. With the Lightning, how do you safely move your airplane around? I've seen people sie on the tail, and back up. Is there any concern of introducing long term stress in this area? I know. More than one silly question.. Jim! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _____ Upgrade Your Email - Click here! ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:15 AM PST US From: "Pete" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's Manual Let's put this into perspective just a bit. In 1989 I built a Van's RV 6. I started the Kit (I think it was the 636th one started) with the plans and manuals Van provided. At that point in the development of his company he had been in business for close to 10 years and over 1000 kits were sold between RV 3, 4, and 6. The plans I received were poor and the instructions were minimal at best. Now after 20 years Van's manuals are pretty good. Lightning has been offered as a kit for a little over a year and a half. Our manuals are far better than Van's were for my RV-6. Those of us who have had exposure to many kit builds will recognize that the Lightning manuals are better than most that are provided with kits but not yet as good as they will be. The point I should make here is that the manuals are more than adequate to build the plane. It's been proven many times by builders. It just requires a bit more thought and initiative from the builders than a manual that instructs a builder on every little thing. I do hope that we will be competitive with Vans and become a bigger player in the kit aircraft industry. It will not happen overnight, though. You can tell your buddy with the RV-7 that he should be glad he was not building an RV in the late 80's as I'm sure he would have been baffled by inaccurate plans and vague, sketchy directions with no photos to help out. We had to wait for the newsletter every other month to clear up some of the inaccuracies, then build the part over again with the right dimensions. I do take offense at your comment that there is no "concentrated effort" to improve the manual. I see the effort every day and it is substantial on the part of our one man product design, technical writing, test flying, aircraft construction, sales and marketing department. You are way off base there. You can see some of the effort in the seven new manual sections completed in January alone and posted on line with their revision dates in the owners' area. As far as commitment to the buyer - I know for a fact that our builders get more help from Arion Aircraft and its dealers than any other kit out there. We don't set limited hours for technical assistance like Vans or Sonex. We answer the phone and email promptly. You have a dealer right next door to you where you can see Lightnings under construction and Lightnings that are completed. Take more advantage of that local resource and change your attitude that since the dealer is not as technically educated as you are that he can't advise you. The help is there, the manual is all you need to build a good aircraft. I know because I've built great aircraft (including a Vans) with a lot less. And Bill, you might consider moderating your tone a bit when you talk with Chasity or Dana in our office. They may soon get to the point of responding in kind or hanging up on you as you do to them when you don't get your way immediately. As for wasting a weekend - I'm sure you had plenty of other areas you could work on or you could have seen first hand how the elevator horn goes together by calling or visiting your dealer just a few miles away from you. As far as rudder stops - what kit are you looking at? Rudder stops are built into the rudder. Stop looking for something in a book and look at the airplane in front of you! Pete Krotje _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sales Email Account Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 9:56 PM Subject: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's Manual Hi one and all, First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person available because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result. If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than is being provided right now. I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an adequate response to that comment. If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product. I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s encountered so far. I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual. Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?) :-) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:47 AM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Silly Question Actually it would not be hard to make a tow bar attach in the same way as the nose wheel of an RV 6,7 A Just tap the aluminum sides of the nosegear for a bolt that has an extended head. The tow bar for an Cessna 150 can be modified to fit it. through holes in the wheel pant. but I dont think anyone has bothered. It is just not that hard to move. Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 2/3/2008 10:37:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, lbmathias@verizon.net writes: Jim, As you know, there is no way to attach a tow bar to the Lightning nose gear; pulling it out of the hangar is done by pulling on the prop as close to the hub as possible. It doesn't take much force as it rolls easily on flat surfaces. Moving it backwards is a bit more challenging because of the swiveling nose wheel. The proper way is to push down on the tail just enough to get the nose wheel off the ground and then pull it backwards. The structure is very strong and if you put your hands close to the fuselage you will be exerting the force where it is strongest. Being rather lightweight myself, I use a canvas bag of shot which weighs 16 lbs and place it across the top of the fuselage just forward of the vertical stab to help me get the tail down. People who don't have tow bars handy when moving a Cessna backwards have been using the tail push method for years with no adverse effects if they push at the right spots. Linda **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:00 PM PST US From: Sales Email Account Subject: Re: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's Manual Hi All, Thanks Pete for your quick response. It's obvious that I hit some very sensitive nerves with my post. Build manuals always lag behind the kit, that's just the nature of the beast. However, there are good manuals out there right now and they could be used as exemplary examples for our manual. We don't have to start where Vans did all those many years ago to produce them now. And Nick, your self admitted do everything guy is, in my estimation, a super guy worthy of great praise for his endurance and perseverance. He just could use some help. Your definition of "concerted effort" is obviously different than mine. One person responsible for a multitude of tasks simply does not translate into a "concerted effort." Regarding the ladies in your office, I have NEVER treated them with disrespect and I never will! Your comment is way off base here. I have never hung up on them once. I have had several dropped calls using my cell phone in my hangar after being placed on hold for several minutes. When that happened I did not assume that they had hung up on me. I just called back! I don't recall them doing the same for me and did not expect them to. Regarding the rudder, mine hits the elevator control horn before it hits the sides of the vertical fin. That is because the manual says in section 21 the following: "Temporarily install the rear elevator bell-crank, there is no need to bolt it in place just slide a couple of bolts in place." There is no guidance provided for locating those bolt holes. Consequently, it is very easy to drill those holes in the wrong place. That was why I called Arion. I don't want to spend any more of the list's time responding to the comments you have made. Suffice it to say that you can build the Lightning with the existing manual. I am but, I have decided to name my Lightning "Swiss Cheese" because of all of the extra holes I've had to make to get it right. Bill, the Ogre in Tucson. Pete wrote: > Let's put this into perspective just a bit. In 1989 I built a Van's > RV 6. I started the Kit (I think it was the 636th one started) with > the plans and manuals Van provided. At that point in the development > of his company he had been in business for close to 10 years and over > 1000 kits were sold between RV 3, 4, and 6. The plans I received were > poor and the instructions were minimal at best. Now after 20 years > Van's manuals are pretty good. > > > > Lightning has been offered as a kit for a little over a year and a > half. Our manuals are far better than Van's were for my RV-6. Those > of us who have had exposure to many kit builds will recognize that the > Lightning manuals are better than most that are provided with kits but > not yet as good as they will be. > > > > The point I should make here is that the manuals are more than > adequate to build the plane. It's been proven many times by > builders. It just requires a bit more thought and initiative from the > builders than a manual that instructs a builder on every little thing. > > > > I do hope that we will be competitive with Vans and become a bigger > player in the kit aircraft industry. It will not happen overnight, > though. > > > > You can tell your buddy with the RV-7 that he should be glad he was > not building an RV in the late 80's as I'm sure he would have been > baffled by inaccurate plans and vague, sketchy directions with no > photos to help out. We had to wait for the newsletter every other > month to clear up some of the inaccuracies, then build the part over > again with the right dimensions. > > > > I do take offense at your comment that there is no "concentrated > effort" to improve the manual. I see the effort every day and it is > substantial on the part of our one man product design, technical > writing, test flying, aircraft construction, sales and marketing > department. You are way off base there. You can see some of the > effort in the seven new manual sections completed in January alone and > posted on line with their revision dates in the owners' area. > > > > As far as commitment to the buyer - I know for a fact that our > builders get more help from Arion Aircraft and its dealers than any > other kit out there. We don't set limited hours for technical > assistance like Vans or Sonex. We answer the phone and email > promptly. You have a dealer right next door to you where you can see > Lightnings under construction and Lightnings that are completed. Take > more advantage of that local resource and change your attitude that > since the dealer is not as technically educated as you are that he > can't advise you. The help is there, the manual is all you need to > build a good aircraft. I know because I've built great aircraft > (including a Vans) with a lot less. > > > > And Bill, you might consider moderating your tone a bit when you talk > with Chasity or Dana in our office. They may soon get to the point of > responding in kind or hanging up on you as you do to them when you > don't get your way immediately. As for wasting a weekend - I'm sure > you had plenty of other areas you could work on or you could have seen > first hand how the elevator horn goes together by calling or visiting > your dealer just a few miles away from you. > > > > As far as rudder stops - what kit are you looking at? Rudder stops > are built into the rudder. Stop looking for something in a book and > look at the airplane in front of you! > > > > Pete Krotje > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sales > Email Account > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 9:56 PM > To: nick otterback; mark.stauffer1@gmail.com > Subject: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's Manual > > > > Hi one and all, > > First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the > "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a > good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get > the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out > there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit > build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just > fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who > want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of > the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The > manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called > Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and > there was not a single person available because they all were in an > engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result. > > If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building > community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. > Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to > become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the > company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've > been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce > results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! > The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in > my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. > Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than > is being provided right now. > > I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very > harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and > them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got > the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is > a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I > discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and > therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an > adequate response to that comment. > > If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have > considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product. > > I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and > communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the > build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s > encountered so far. > > I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at > Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. > That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch > builder's manual. > > Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in > Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you > know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?) :-) > > > > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > >http://forums.matronics.com > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:02 PM PST US From: Charles Dewey Subject: Lightning-List: RE: LONG LIVE THE LIGHTNING!!!!!!!!!! --- Pete wrote: > Let's put this into perspective just a bit. In 1989 > I built a Van's RV 6. > I started the Kit (I think it was the 636th one > started) with the plans and > manuals Van provided. At that point in the > development of his company he > had been in business for close to 10 years and over > 1000 kits were sold > between RV 3, 4, and 6. The plans I received were > poor and the instructions > were minimal at best. Now after 20 years Van's > manuals are pretty good. > > > > Lightning has been offered as a kit for a little > over a year and a half. > Our manuals are far better than Van's were for my > RV-6. Those of us who > have had exposure to many kit builds will recognize > that the Lightning > manuals are better than most that are provided with > kits but not yet as good > as they will be. > > > > The point I should make here is that the manuals are > more than adequate to > build the plane. It's been proven many times by > builders. It just requires > a bit more thought and initiative from the builders > than a manual that > instructs a builder on every little thing. > > > > I do hope that we will be competitive with Vans and > become a bigger player > in the kit aircraft industry. It will not happen > overnight, though. > > > > You can tell your buddy with the RV-7 that he should > be glad he was not > building an RV in the late 80's as I'm sure he would > have been baffled by > inaccurate plans and vague, sketchy directions with > no photos to help out. > We had to wait for the newsletter every other month > to clear up some of the > inaccuracies, then build the part over again with > the right dimensions. > > > > I do take offense at your comment that there is no > "concentrated effort" to > improve the manual. I see the effort every day and > it is substantial on the > part of our one man product design, technical > writing, test flying, aircraft > construction, sales and marketing department. You > are way off base there. > You can see some of the effort in the seven new > manual sections completed in > January alone and posted on line with their revision > dates in the owners' > area. > > > > As far as commitment to the buyer - I know for a > fact that our builders get > more help from Arion Aircraft and its dealers than > any other kit out there. > We don't set limited hours for technical assistance > like Vans or Sonex. We > answer the phone and email promptly. You have a > dealer right next door to > you where you can see Lightnings under construction > and Lightnings that are > completed. Take more advantage of that local > resource and change your > attitude that since the dealer is not as technically > educated as you are > that he can't advise you. The help is there, the > manual is all you need to > build a good aircraft. I know because I've built > great aircraft (including > a Vans) with a lot less. > > > > And Bill, you might consider moderating your tone a > bit when you talk with > Chasity or Dana in our office. They may soon get to > the point of responding > in kind or hanging up on you as you do to them when > you don't get your way > immediately. As for wasting a weekend - I'm sure > you had plenty of other > areas you could work on or you could have seen first > hand how the elevator > horn goes together by calling or visiting your > dealer just a few miles away > from you. > > > > As far as rudder stops - what kit are you looking > at? Rudder stops are > built into the rudder. Stop looking for something > in a book and look at the > airplane in front of you! > > > > Pete Krotje > > > > > > _____ > > From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Sales Email > Account > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 9:56 PM > To: nick otterback; mark.stauffer1@gmail.com > Subject: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's > Manual > > > > Hi one and all, > > First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got > the humor in the "secret > code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. > That's a good thing. > However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to > get the manual up to par > with the rest of the kit building providers out > there. The company's > emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build > process takes much of the > fuss out of the build and that is just fine. > However, not everyone can > afford that route. Those of us who want to build or > who must build on our > own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated > experience the builder assist > program provides. The manual and tech support phone > calls are our only > recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control > horn install question on > Friday and there was not a single person available > because they all were in > an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was > the result. > > If the Lightning is to be a real success with the > kit building community, a > quality builder's manual has to be produced and > soon. Otherwise, problems > in the build process could very well start to become > a theme that will > negatively impact sales. I know that the company > wants to place a higher > priority on getting this done. I've been told that > several times. But, > lip service does not produce results. Commitment to > the builder/buyer does > and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will > eventually dominate the > build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales > will result because of > that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more > consideration and > respect than is being provided right now. > > I know that many of you on the "list" will find this > to be a very harsh > criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have > offended you and them, if > that is the case. However, I believe that this kit > has got the potential to > take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There > is a builder two hangars > down building an RV-7A and all he says when I > discuss a building issue with > him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a > really good builder's > manual. I don't have an adequate response to that > comment. > > If the Lightning is going to really catch on with > those === message truncated == Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:43 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Gear legs From: "jeynon" Thanks for the responses. It's reassuring to know I'm not the only one spending hours sanding his shaft. John Eynon Lightning #53 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162233#162233 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:06 PM PST US From: nick otterback Subject: RE: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's Manual the build manual is avalible on line you must be an owner to access it... nick Brian Whittingham wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } Quote "Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?" end quote There are rudder stops. That's what the bulge on the rudder with the flat edge does. I can't remember if it touches on the horizontal or on the vertical tail assembly, but when it's all together I gaurantee there's a limit to rudder travel. As far as the rest goes, I'm sure that you're right, that one day that most Lightning's will have to be built at home. At some point in the growth process that will have to be the case as it's just not feasable to have enough space and build assisstants for a huge scale operation. I know that the current build manuals were a lot to do with building the prototype and therefore there are some differences, but I'm willing to bet that Nick and Mark et al will constantly be revising this document. The plane itself is going through many changes. Small things such as an updated and improved canopy latch system to much bigger changes like a new and longer wing. At some point it will be more smaller than larger changes being made and will make keeping up with a build manual much easier. One thing that I would suggest would be to make the build manual available online and all updates to be saved online at the same time that they are saved to the PC. This way the users at home can download Revision XXX dated MM/DD/YYYY and know that they have the latest and greatest, even if the kit takes them a year or more to build. Having the Operating Manual online would probably be nice too since a lot of people want a peek at operating procedures and testing data. I know that it's all easier said than done, but I think would make for a user-friendly company. There's still things that folks will find or confuse I'm sure, but perhaps a good thing to try. Brian W. --------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:55:37 -0700 From: sales@billandruth.net Subject: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's Manual Hi one and all, First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person available because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result. If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than is being provided right now. I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an adequate response to that comment. If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product. I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s encountered so far. I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual. Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?) :-) " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution --------------------------------- Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now! --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:43 PM PST US From: nick otterback Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Gear legs John, Normally we do not have this much trouble with the legs...make sure the the hole in the bottom of the fuselage is at the correct angle to allow 1/8" gap around the leg ...they will bind and go in crooked if they touch just a bit...otherwise sanding is ok but take your time and do not go to the grinder... nick jeynon wrote: Is there some trick to inserting the gear legs into the spar box. I've sanded the paint out of the tube, and loosened the nuts holding the spar box to the fuselage. I've also done some sanding on the gear leg. I can get it about halfway in with some difficulty, and back out with more difficulty. I assume the answer is keep sanding the gear leg until it goes in, but I thought I'd check here first. Thanks. John Eynon Lightning #53 Carbondale, Illinois Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162096#162096 --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:35 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's Manual Sounds like you guys have a pretty good setup then if you got it online a nd are always updating it. Probably even better technology and therefore q uicker updates than probably half of kitplane manfacturers out there I bet! One thing that I'd caution everybody to stop and think about before being too critical is that a document is written by one person, or maybe a few people. Then the build er gets it and goes through it and interprets what is presented. Some folk s interpret things differently and some have a harder time understanding things either because of how it is written or b ecause of how they decode the messages. Now 90 out of a 100 people might u nderstand it just fine, but 10 out of a hundred might just not be on the same wavelength. That is fine, and fairly normal, but don't jump to the conclusion that something is written horribly just b ecause you don't like the way it is written. A 90% rate of acceptence would still be really exceptional, even if all of the 10 % that didn't get it were all friends and thus had others that they knew th at didn't get it too. In my line of work it is important to try to make sure that both parties or sometimes 5-6 different parties understand correctly every detail. Someti mes each party speaks a different primary language, and even if they don't, English speaking from the UK from Australia, New Ze aland, from the US in New York and US in Tennessee, are all on very differe nt wavelengths. (as we've already established, the folks from down under h ave to have the inverted fuel and oil systems in their Lightnings) Sometime s you can read between the lines and figure it out, but other times you nee d to pick up the phone and call to get some clarification. I feel that the guys at Arion will give you the attention that you need. I don't even hav e anything to do with the company anymore, as far as being a builder, owner , sales person, or flyer, but I've maintained my interest in the project an d I can still call or send an email to Nick or Mark or Pete and get a respo nse within 24 hours and they know that they're not making any money off of me! My best advise is to use the carpenter's rule of thumb, "measure twice , cut once." Brian W. ghtning-List: The Lightning Builder's ManualTo: lightning-list@matronics.co m the build manual is avalible on line you must be an owner to access it... nickBrian Whittingham wrote: Quote "Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?" end quote There are rudder stops. That's what the bulge on the rudder with t he flat edge does. I can't remember if it touches on the horizontal or on the vertical tail assembly, but when it's all together I gaurantee there's a limit to rudder travel. As far as the rest goes, I'm sure that you're r ight, that one day that most Lightning's will have to be built at home. At some point in the growth process that will have to be the case as it's jus t not feasable to have enough space and build assisstants for a huge scale operation. I know that the current build manuals were a lot to do with bui lding the prototype and therefore there are some differences, but I'm willi ng to bet that Nick and Mark et al will constantly be revising this documen t. The plane itself is going through many changes. Small things such as an updated and improved canopy latch system to much bigger changes like a n ew and longer wing. At some point it will be more smaller than larger chan ges being made and will make keeping up with a build manual much easier. On e thing that I would suggest would be to make the build manual available on line and all updates to be saved online at the same time that they are save d to the PC. This way the users at home can download Revision XXX dated MM /DD/YYYY and know that they have the latest and greatest, even if the kit t akes them a year or more to build. Having the Operating Manual online woul d probably be nice too since a lot of people want a peek at operating proce dures and testing data. I know that it's all easier said than done, but I think would make for a user-friendly company. There's still things that fo lks will find or confuse I'm sure, but perhaps a good thing to try. Brian W. @yahoo.com; mark.stauffer1@gmail.comSubject: Lightning-List: The Lightning Builder's Manual Hi one and all,First, I want to say that at least one at A rion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted e ffort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building provide rs out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit bu ild process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to buil d or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated e xperience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator contr ol horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person availa ble because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weeke nd was the result.If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit bui lding community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. O therwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a t heme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to p lace a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several t imes. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the build er/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventual ly dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will re sult because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more conside ration and respect than is being provided right now.I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of V an's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A a nd all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have p lans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have a n adequate response to that comment.If the Lightning is going to really cat ch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product.I highly encourage every stand alone builder to cont act Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encounter ed in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s enc ountered so far.I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their mone y. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual.Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?) :-) " targ et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List p://forums.m atronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now! _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!-Play the word scramble challenge with sta r power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_ja n ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:57 PM PST US From: "Steven Sundquist" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Gear legs I spent a lot of time sanding both the spar box tubes and the gear legs to get them to fit and that was before the spar box was fit in the fuselage. They are a tight fit. I think that all the welding around the bottom end of the tube in the spar box distorts it a bit. If I was going to do it again, I would take the legs to a machine shop and have them put them into a lathe and remove enough to make them fit. The bottom ends are the same situation. If they are to "bottom out" in the wheel and brake weldment, a significant amount needs to be removed there, too. Steve Kit # 48 _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nick otterback Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Gear legs John, Normally we do not have this much trouble with the legs...make sure the the hole in the bottom of the fuselage is at the correct angle to allow 1/8" gap around the leg ...they will bind and go in crooked if they touch just a bit...otherwise sanding is ok but take your time and do not go to the grinder... nick jeynon wrote: Is there some trick to inserting the gear legs into the spar box. I've sanded the paint out of the tube, and loosened the nuts holding the spar box to the fuselage. I've also done some sanding on the gear leg. I can get it about halfway in with some difficulty, and back out with more difficulty. I assume the answer is keep sanding the gear leg until it ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.