Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:53 AM - Re: Lightning-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 05/19/08 (Richard Yee)
2. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 05/19/08 (James, Clive R)
3. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 05/19/08 (N1BZRich@aol.com)
4. 12:41 PM - =?iso-8859-1?Q?Theodor_von_K=E1rm=E1n? (James, Clive R)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 05/19/08 |
What is a 'karmen'? I couldn't find it in any dictionary.
Thanks,
Richard
On 5/19/08, Lightning-List Digest Server <lightning-list@matronics.com>
wrote:
>
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete Lightning-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the Lightning-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-05-19&Archive=Lightning
>
> Text Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-05-19&Archive=Lightning
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Lightning-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Mon 05/19/08: 3
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 07:13 AM - Re: email (flylightning)
> 2. 07:47 AM - Re: email (Johnny Thompson)
> 3. 10:41 AM - Re: email ()
>
>
> ________________________________ Message
> 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:13:30 AM PST US
> From: "flylightning" <info@flylightning.net>
> Subject: RE: Lightning-List: email
>
> I will work on getting a drawing out on the web site so it can be
> duplicated..we use it for setting the wings to match.we set one, than set
> the next one to match..
>
>
> Nick Otterback
>
> Arion Aircraft, LLC
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> N1BZRich@aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
>
>
> In a message dated 5/17/2008 10:47:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> cjk129@cox.net writes:
>
> Take a clear plastic tube with water in it. Line one wing up with the wing
> root. Line the water level at one end up with the leading edge where the
> wing meets the root. The tube goes under the wing and up to the trailing
> edge. Measure the distance from the water level at the other end, to the
> trailing edge. This measurement is the vertical height difference between
> the leading and trailing edges.
>
> Hi Colin,
>
> I used a "water level" extensively when rigging my Pitts. The neat
> thing about it is that it can be any length - such as wing tip to wing tip.
> The method you describe above should work. However, I think the new
> incidence jig that Lightning has come up with will be simple and likely do
> a
> more precise job when using one of the new digital levels. But as I said,
> your "water level" method will work.
>
> Blue Skies,
>
> Buz
>
>
> _____
>
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
> <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> twists on
> family favorites at AOL Food.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message
> 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 07:47:28 AM PST US
> From: "Johnny Thompson" <14az@mysprocketmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
>
> I used a simple system that worked well on N8WN. I put a 6" 2x6 directly
> above the aft "C spar" of the wing then placed the digital level on the
> 2x6 with the forward point of the level on the wing on top of the main
> spar. I repeated this mid span and then on the tip of the wing. As I
> suspected I had some (minor) difference in twist between the two wings
> but not enough to matter. I set the incidence on the left and the wing
> matched the karmen perfect. On the right I had to place downward force
> on the leading edge to bring the wing into 0.2 degree of the left wing.
> I then had to add micro balloon mix to the top forward of the karmen
> about 1/4" to bring it into alignment with the wing. The bottom on the
> wing is not a perfect match but with years of experience with composites
> this is about normal. Not a big deal at all. What matters is the
> aircraft flew hands off without any roll at all. Johnny
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: N1BZRich@aol.com
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
>
>
> In a message dated 5/17/2008 12:26:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> clive.james@uk.bp.com writes:
> Is there a concern with the lighting that the fuselage isn't a good
> enough template?
>
> Hi Clive,
> The karmen on the two fuselage sides are probably pretty close in
> the original molds, but that may change over time with use. Plus the
> individual layups could vary, as could the way the two halves are
> glassed together. All of these processes leave some room for very
> slight miss-allignment of the karmen on each side. In the past, some
> Lightnings have come out with no roll when using the karmen and others
> have had a roll to correct. So it just depends. The new jig that SYI
> is using makes sure both wings are set to the same incidence. Adds one
> step to the process, but insures they are the same.
> Blue Skies,
> Buz
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
> favorites at AOL Food.
>
>
> ________________________________ Message
> 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 10:41:33 AM PST US
> From: <cjk129@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
>
>
> Thanks Johnny. I will use your method as an extra check!
>
> Colin K.
> ---- Johnny Thompson <14az@mysprocketmail.com> wrote:
> > I used a simple system that worked well on N8WN. I put a 6" 2x6 directly
> above
> the aft "C spar" of the wing then placed the digital level on the 2x6 with
> the
> forward point of the level on the wing on top of the main spar. I repeated
> this mid span and then on the tip of the wing. As I suspected I had some
> (minor)
> difference in twist between the two wings but not enough to matter. I set
> the incidence on the left and the wing matched the karmen perfect. On the
> right
> I had to place downward force on the leading edge to bring the wing into
> 0.2
> degree of the left wing. I then had to add micro balloon mix to the top
> forward
> of the karmen about 1/4" to bring it into alignment with the wing. The
> bottom
> on the wing is not a perfect match but with years of experience with
> composites
> this is about normal. Not a big deal at all. What matters is the aircraft
> flew hands off without any roll at all. Johnny
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: N1BZRich@aol.com
> > To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 6:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 5/17/2008 12:26:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> clive.james@uk.bp.com
> writes:
> > Is there a concern with the lighting that the fuselage isn't a good
> > enough template?
> >
> > Hi Clive,
> > The karmen on the two fuselage sides are probably pretty close in
> the original
> molds, but that may change over time with use. Plus the individual layups
> could vary, as could the way the two halves are glassed together. All of
> these processes leave some room for very slight miss-allignment of the
> karmen
> on each side. In the past, some Lightnings have come out with no roll when
> using
> the karmen and others have had a roll to correct. So it just depends. The
> new jig that SYI is using makes sure both wings are set to the same
> incidence.
> Adds one step to the process, but insures they are the same.
> > Blue Skies,
> > Buz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites
> at
> AOL Food.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 05/19/08 |
Richard, 'Karman' is Spanish for 'wing root shape on the fuselage' or
that's what I figured it to be
I tried everywhere to find a translation on European translation
websites but they can make anything of it. I would be good to find out
what it actually means.
CJ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Yee
Sent: 20 May 2008 16:50
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 05/19/08
What is a 'karmen'? I couldn't find it in any dictionary.
Thanks,
Richard
On 5/19/08, Lightning-List Digest Server <lightning-list@matronics.com>
wrote:
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete Lightning-List Digest can also be found in
either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
version
of the Lightning-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic
text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha
pter 08-05-19&Archive=Lightning
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chap
ter 08-05-19&Archive=Lightning
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Lightning-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Mon 05/19/08: 3
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:13 AM - Re: email (flylightning)
2. 07:47 AM - Re: email (Johnny Thompson)
3. 10:41 AM - Re: email ()
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 07:13:30 AM PST US
From: "flylightning" <info@flylightning.net>
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: email
I will work on getting a drawing out on the web site so it can
be
duplicated..we use it for setting the wings to match.we set one,
than set
the next one to match..
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N1BZRich@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
In a message dated 5/17/2008 10:47:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight
Time,
cjk129@cox.net writes:
Take a clear plastic tube with water in it. Line one wing up
with the wing
root. Line the water level at one end up with the leading edge
where the
wing meets the root. The tube goes under the wing and up to the
trailing
edge. Measure the distance from the water level at the other
end, to the
trailing edge. This measurement is the vertical height
difference between
the leading and trailing edges.
Hi Colin,
I used a "water level" extensively when rigging my Pitts.
The neat
thing about it is that it can be any length - such as wing tip
to wing tip.
The method you describe above should work. However, I think the
new
incidence jig that Lightning has come up with will be simple and
likely do a
more precise job when using one of the new digital levels. But
as I said,
your "water level" method will work.
Blue Skies,
Buz
_____
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>
twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 07:47:28 AM PST US
From: "Johnny Thompson" <14az@mysprocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
I used a simple system that worked well on N8WN. I put a 6" 2x6
directly
above the aft "C spar" of the wing then placed the digital level
on the
2x6 with the forward point of the level on the wing on top of
the main
spar. I repeated this mid span and then on the tip of the wing.
As I
suspected I had some (minor) difference in twist between the
two wings
but not enough to matter. I set the incidence on the left and
the wing
matched the karmen perfect. On the right I had to place downward
force
on the leading edge to bring the wing into 0.2 degree of the
left wing.
I then had to add micro balloon mix to the top forward of the
karmen
about 1/4" to bring it into alignment with the wing. The bottom
on the
wing is not a perfect match but with years of experience with
composites
this is about normal. Not a big deal at all. What matters is the
aircraft flew hands off without any roll at all. Johnny
----- Original Message -----
From: N1BZRich@aol.com
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
In a message dated 5/17/2008 12:26:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight
Time,
clive.james@uk.bp.com writes:
Is there a concern with the lighting that the fuselage isn't
a good
enough template?
Hi Clive,
The karmen on the two fuselage sides are probably pretty
close in
the original molds, but that may change over time with use.
Plus the
individual layups could vary, as could the way the two halves
are
glassed together. All of these processes leave some room for
very
slight miss-allignment of the karmen on each side. In the past,
some
Lightnings have come out with no roll when using the karmen and
others
have had a roll to correct. So it just depends. The new jig
that SYI
is using makes sure both wings are set to the same incidence.
Adds one
step to the process, but insures they are the same.
Blue Skies,
Buz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-----
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 10:41:33 AM PST US
From: <cjk129@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
Thanks Johnny. I will use your method as an extra check!
Colin K.
---- Johnny Thompson <14az@mysprocketmail.com> wrote:
> I used a simple system that worked well on N8WN. I put a 6"
2x6 directly above
the aft "C spar" of the wing then placed the digital level on
the 2x6 with the
forward point of the level on the wing on top of the main spar.
I repeated
this mid span and then on the tip of the wing. As I suspected I
had some (minor)
difference in twist between the two wings but not enough to
matter. I set
the incidence on the left and the wing matched the karmen
perfect. On the right
I had to place downward force on the leading edge to bring the
wing into 0.2
degree of the left wing. I then had to add micro balloon mix to
the top forward
of the karmen about 1/4" to bring it into alignment with the
wing. The bottom
on the wing is not a perfect match but with years of experience
with composites
this is about normal. Not a big deal at all. What matters is the
aircraft
flew hands off without any roll at all. Johnny
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: N1BZRich@aol.com
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: email
>
>
> In a message dated 5/17/2008 12:26:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight
Time, clive.james@uk.bp.com
writes:
> Is there a concern with the lighting that the fuselage
isn't a good
> enough template?
>
> Hi Clive,
> The karmen on the two fuselage sides are probably pretty
close in the original
molds, but that may change over time with use. Plus the
individual layups
could vary, as could the way the two halves are glassed
together. All of
these processes leave some room for very slight miss-allignment
of the karmen
on each side. In the past, some Lightnings have come out with
no roll when using
the karmen and others have had a roll to correct. So it just
depends. The
new jig that SYI is using makes sure both wings are set to the
same incidence.
Adds one step to the process, but insures they are the same.
> Blue Skies,
> Buz
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Lightning-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 05/19/08 |
In a message dated 5/20/2008 11:55:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
richard.k.yee@gmail.com writes:
What is a 'karmen'?
Richard,
Karmen or more properly Karman (probably named after professor Von
Karman - well known aeronautical engineer) is a term used to describe the raised
(or molded) portion of the fuselage that mates to the wing root and thus
"fairs" the wing into the fuselage for less drag at the junction of wing and
fuselage. As far as I know the term is only used for composite aircraft where
the
fuselage mold includes a karman so that when the wing is attached you
already have a drag reducing junction.
Blue Skies,
Buz Rich
**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
Message 4
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| Subject: | =?iso-8859-1?Q?Theodor_von_K=E1rm=E1n? |
Nice one Buz, not Spanish at all, no wonder I couldn't find it. It was a
line in the Esqual manual which you'll remember. CJ
Dr. Theodor von K=E1rm=E1n holds an important position among the
contributors to aerodynamic theory, particularly in the area of
supersonic flight. Known as "the father of supersonic flight," he made
major contributions to aviation and space technology, theoretical
aerodynamics, and the application of theory to improve aircraft
performance. He also helped develop the use of rocketry for creating
weapons of defense.
As a young child in Hungary, von K=E1rm=E1n seemed destined for science.
His father was a professor and his mother a descendant of well-known
scholars. Born in 1881, Theodor's intelligence was first noticed at age
6 when he solved his older brother's complicated multiplication problems
in his head before his brother could complete them on paper.
At age 9 he enrolled in an open education laboratory founded by his
father that was referred to as "a nursery for the elite." By the age of
22, von K=E1rm=E1n had graduated from Royal Joseph University in Hungary
with a mechanical engineering degree and highest honors. He enrolled in
the advanced study of mechanical engineering after serving his mandatory
military service and received his doctorate under the tutelage of the
famous aerodynamicist, Ludwig Prandtl.
Von K=E1rm=E1n spent the next four years working under Prandtl and
helped advance boundary-layer theory and airfoil and wing theory. In
1913 he left Prandtl's supervision to become a professor in aeronautics
and mechanics at the Technical University at Aachen, Germany. He was
soon appointed the director of the Aachen Aerodynamics Institute.
While at Aachen, he met Hugo Junkers and collaborated with him in the
aerodynamic design of the Junkers J-1 transport airplane. Created in
1915, the J-1 airplane was the first cantilevered wing all metal
airplane.
Von K=E1rm=E1n moved to the United States in 1930 to accept the role of
director of the Guggenheim Aeronautical Laboratory at the California
Institute of Technology (GALCIT). He brought with him a new approach to
theoretical aerodynamics and its use in practical airplane design. He
soon made GALCIT the intellectual center of aerodynamics and a leader in
rocket research in the United States. Aerojet Engineering Corporation,
which later became the major rocket company Aerojet-General, was spun
off from GALCIT in 1942, and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a leader in
rocket research, was formed from GALCIT in 1944.
In 1932, von K=E1rm=E1n made a notable contribution to the study of
supersonics. Von Karman reduced the current equations for supersonic
flow into a single equation. He then proposed its solution by studying
the airflow at various points along the object. This became known as the
Karman-Moore theory and marked the beginning of a new approach to
studying supersonics that is still used today.
In 1939, the commanding general of the U.S Army Air Force, General Henry
"Hap" Arnold, asked von K=E1rm=E1n to design a 20-foot (six-meter),
40,000-horsepower (29,828-kilowatt) wind tunnel for the Air Force at
Wright Field in Ohio. This was the first facility of its kind and was
used by the Air Force to make major advances in flight research.
During World War II, General Arnold chose von K=E1rm=E1n as his
scientific advisor, marking the beginning of a long period of
cooperation between researchers, the Air Force, and industry that still
exists. This relationship gave von K=E1rm=E1n a strong influence over
much of the aeronautical research and development that occurred during
the war. He created the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board, a group of
academic, government, and industry engineers and scientists who were a
major force in determining U.S. Air Force research and development
policy.
After the war, von K=E1rm=E1n sent a team of scientists to Germany to
study their facilities and learn how they had made such rapid progress
in aeronautics and aviation during the war. He used this information to
develop a blueprint for an Air Force research and development facility
for jet propulsion, supersonic aircraft, and ballistic missiles. This
facility was created in Tennessee and was called the Arnold Engineering
Development Center.
Also after the war Von K=E1rm=E1n was responsible for creating the
Advisory Group for Aeronautical Research and Development (AGARD), part
of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). AGARD has played a
major role in the aeronautical advancements of NATO countries since the
war. One of the educational and research institutes of AGARD became the
Von Karman Institute for Fluid Dynamics, a leading aerodynamics
laboratory known worldwide.
Von K=E1rm=E1n continued his policymaking relationship with the U.S. Air
Force and also traveled throughout the world giving lectures. He
eventually moved to Paris and left the operation of GALCIT to his former
students and colleagues. He died on May 6, 1963, in a hospital in
Aachen, and was buried in Pasadena, California, home of the Jet
Propulsion Laboratory. At his funeral, a statement paying tribute to him
from President John F. Kennedy was read. The President had also earlier
that year awarded von Karman the first National Medal of Science. Dr.
von K=E1rm=E1n was inducted into the National Aviation Hall of Fame in
1983.
-Dan Johnston
References and Further Reading:
Anderson, Jr., John D. A History of Aerodynamics. Cambridge, England:
Cambridge University Press, 1997.
Gorn, Michael H. The Universal Man. Theodore von Karman's Life in
Aeronautics. Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1992.
Halacy, D.S. Father of Supersonic Flight: Theodor von Karman, New York:
Pocket Books, Inc., 1965.
Hall, R. Cargill. "Shaping the Course of Aeronautics, Rocketry, and
Astronautics: Theodore von Karman, 1881-1963. Journal of the
Astronautical Sciences (October-December 1978).
Hanle, Paul A. Bringing Aerodynamics to America. Cambridge: MIT, 1982.
Sharp, Trevor, ed. The AGARD History, 1952-1987. Paris: AGARD, 1988.
Sturm, Thomas. The USAF Scientific Advisory Board: Its First Twenty
Years, 1944-1964. Washington, D.C.: Office of Air Force History, 1986.
Von Karman, Theodor. Aerodynamics, Selected Topics in the Light of Their
Theoretical Development. New York: Cornell University Press, 1954.
Wattendorf, Frank L. ed. The AGARD History, 1952-1968. Paris: AGARD,
1969.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N1BZRich@aol.com
Sent: 20 May 2008 18:25
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 3 Msgs -
05/19/08
In a message dated 5/20/2008 11:55:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
richard.k.yee@gmail.com writes:
What is a 'karmen'?
Richard,
Karmen or more properly Karman (probably named after professor Von
Karman - well known aeronautical engineer) is a term used to describe
the raised (or molded) portion of the fuselage that mates to the wing
root and thus "fairs" the wing into the fuselage for less drag at the
junction of wing and fuselage. As far as I know the term is only used
for composite aircraft where the fuselage mold includes a karman so that
when the wing is attached you already have a drag reducing junction.
Blue Skies,
Buz Rich
________________________________
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites
at AOL Food
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> .
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