---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/06/08: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:30 AM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (jhausch) 2. 07:34 AM - Flying your Lightning for the first time (Jim Langley) 3. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (James, Clive R) 4. 08:16 AM - Re: June Lightning Newsletter (N1BZRich@aol.com) 5. 08:26 AM - Re: June Lightning Newsletter (Jim Langley) 6. 09:00 AM - Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 7. 09:46 AM - Lightning crosswind ability (Hugh Sontag) 8. 09:56 AM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (N1BZRich@aol.com) 9. 10:12 AM - Re: Lightning crosswind ability (EAFerguson@aol.com) 10. 10:22 AM - Re: Lightning crosswind ability (N1BZRich@aol.com) 11. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Lightning crosswind ability (Jim Langley) 12. 10:50 AM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (Johnny Thompson) 13. 11:27 AM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (Jim Langley) 14. 11:46 AM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (jhausch) 15. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (Johnny Thompson) 16. 01:22 PM - Re: Lightning crosswind ability (Hugh Sontag) 17. 01:22 PM - Re: Flying your Lightning for the first time (Tex Mantell) 18. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (Hugh Sontag) 19. 01:34 PM - Re: Flying your Lightning for the first time (Jim Langley) 20. 02:50 PM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (Kayberg@aol.com) 21. 03:12 PM - Re: Flying your Lightning for the first time (Brian Whittingham) 22. 03:33 PM - Re: Flying your Lightning for the first time (Jim Langley) 23. 03:51 PM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (Brian Whittingham) 24. 04:25 PM - Re: Flying your Lightning for the first time (Brian Whittingham) 25. 05:12 PM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (GARY PENNINGTON) 26. 07:34 PM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (Johnny Thompson) 27. 09:20 PM - Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash (Peter and Jan Disher) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:51 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash From: "jhausch" Respectfully, when might we get some add'l news on this unfortunate accident? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186489#186489 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:39 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time Short of a few odds and ends like putting my tail number on and doing a weight and balance, I am FINISHED WITH MY LIGHTNING!!! (happy days, huh?) Anyway, I have been spending some time talking with Ryan and Buz about the next steps after the airworthyness inspection, and before I actually strap myself into the seat and take off. This is the way I am approaching things, your comments are welcome: 1. In preparation for flying my aircraft, I tried to find something that I could rent that was close in type, i.e. stick, low wing, nose wheel, e tc. it is however, hard to be flying when you are spending time and money building, but I have logged some hours. 2. I called Falcon and secured insurance on my Lightning with Ryan included. 3. Ryan will be flying the first 5+ hours, and we will work together to make sure everything is working as it should and nothing is going to "fa ll off". 4. Per suggestion, I am looking for something like a Katana to rent and fly, as from what I have heard, it is pretty close to the Lightning in feel. Right now I am flying a Evektor SportStar only because it is the only small low wing with a stick that I can find to rent. 5. Establish a defined test plan for multi-phase testing per FAA Advisor y Circular 90-89 and contingency plan for emergencies. I have been workin g off of a graciously supplied example for this. 6. I think after I have a few hours in my aircraft, I will be taking it home right away. Lancaster, (KLNS) has two nice long and wide runways and lots of room to fly, so I can practice different types of takeoffs a nd landings, and my area has a fair number of airports close, so I can "rin g er out" and still be within gliding distance of a good place to land. This will help to break in the engine and build time on the aircraft. Doing mostly landings and takeoffs is a little tougher on the engine during th e break-in period. 7. While I am flying and recording results, use this information to develop an aircraft manual with weight & balance, limitations, performan ce data, etc=85 The cool thing about the MGL Odyssey that I put in the panel is that it can act like a "black box" flight recorder and write this data to a SDRam card while in flight. I can then go back and use this information to learn more about my flight performance and characteristics; neat! Once I have flown off the hours and am totally comfortable with the aircraft, I can finally take my daughter up for a ride. (She's been buggin g me from day one). ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash From: "James, Clive R" Some info to be gleaned from the Jabiru engines lists, CJ -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jhausch Sent: 06 June 2008 15:28 Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash Respectfully, when might we get some add'l news on this unfortunate accident? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186489#186489 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from bp1xeuex002.bp1.ad.bp.com ([149.184.180.71]) by BP1XEUEX027-C.bp1.ad.bp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:49:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received: from bp1xeuex712.bp1.ad.bp.com ([149.182.218.243]) by bp1xeuex002.bp1.ad.bp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:49:31 +0100 Received: from bp1xeuav705.bp1.ad.bp.com ([149.182.218.240]) by bp1xeuex712.bp1.ad.bp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:49:31 +0100 Received: from mail164.messagelabs.com ([216.82.253.131]) by bp1xeuav705.bp1.ad.bp.com with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:49:30 +0100 Received: (qmail 21291 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2008 09:49:25 -0000 Received: from mta109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (HELO mta109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.12.11.46) by server-8.tower-164.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2008 09:49:25 -0000 Received: from 69.147.103.225 (HELO n14b.bullet.mail.re1.yahoo.com) (69.147.103.225) by mta109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:49:24 +0000 Received: from [68.142.237.90] by n14.bullet.mail.re1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jun 2008 09:49:23 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.86] by t6.bullet.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jun 2008 09:49:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.114] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jun 2008 09:49:22 -0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: [jabiruengines] Digest Number 3346 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [jabiruengines] Digest Number 3346 Thread-Index: AcjHup/hp+bGXMOFRyybhLaryns7nw= List-Unsubscribe: From: jabiru engines Messages In This Digest (4 Messages) 1.1. Re: Prop Hub From: Pete 1.2. Re: Prop Hub From: Tom Covell 2a. Prop Bolts From: Bill Evans 3. Installing Propellers From: Bill Evans View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages 1.1. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Pete" pete@flylightning.net usjabiru Thu Jun 5, 2008 6:03 am (PDT) All kits from Arion aircraft are built as Experimental Amateur Built. They are not eligible for an LSA certificate of any kind. Pete _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 8:50 PM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Tom, If your plane was built by Arion then it is an S-LSA. If it was built by you then it is probably an E-LSA. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, I don't know if it was an E or S. I also have the 3300 and Sensinich ground adjustable. I guess I didn't realize the prop hub bolts had to be torqued every 25 hours--thanks for the info. Tom _____ From: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:15 AM To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Tom Is you Arion Lightining an S-LSA or E-LSA. If it is an S-LSA I am curious to see what kind of input Arion at Shelbyville has to add. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (38) 1.2. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Tom Covell" tomcovell@theriver.com desertfloats Thu Jun 5, 2008 6:11 am (PDT) Ivan, It wasn't my prop hub that came off. I have a Rans S-6S that I am waiting for the DAR to inspect so I can go fly. I see Joe Hollars got his inspection OK(Congrats) _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 6:50 PM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Tom, If your plane was built by Arion then it is an S-LSA. If it was built by you then it is probably an E-LSA. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, I don't know if it was an E or S. I also have the 3300 and Sensinich ground adjustable. I guess I didn't realize the prop hub bolts had to be torqued every 25 hours--thanks for the info. Tom _____ From: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:15 AM To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Tom Is you Arion Lightining an S-LSA or E-LSA. If it is an S-LSA I am curious to see what kind of input Arion at Shelbyville has to add. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (38) 2a. Prop Bolts Posted by: "Bill Evans" wwevans@enter-net.com bil438 Thu Jun 5, 2008 8:45 am (PDT) Someone wrote In a message dated 6/4/2008 2:14:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, imap8ntr@cox.net writes: 180-200 ft-lbs ? Wow! That's a lot! I read the posting to be 180-200 inch pounds not foot pounds. Still it would be helpful to know whether there was a prop extension installed Also the jabiru engine perform best with wooden propellers. This is one of the reasons why . It's very possible that vibration between the ground adjustable prop and the engine caused these bolts to shake loose. I also think it wise to mention that when you lockwire prop bolts you use .050" Inconel Lockwire. They should be lockwired in pairs to prevent embrittlement of the wire. If you lockwire the nuts, you can see the lockwire without removing the spinner. Bill Evans 2200a Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (2) 3. Installing Propellers Posted by: "Bill Evans" wwevans@enter-net.com bil438 Thu Jun 5, 2008 8:48 am (PDT) There is an old EAA Video on Installing Propellers by the Great American Propeller Company. I haven't seen them advertise for years. Anyway I've watched that video numerous times and consider it to be gospel on installing propellers. I highly recommend it. Bill E 2200a Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity * 9 New Members * 2 New Photos Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Access it for free Get Fantasy Sports stats on your TV. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. Need to Reply? Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest. 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Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from bp1xeuex002.bp1.ad.bp.com ([149.184.180.71]) by BP1XEUEX027-C.bp1.ad.bp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:09:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received: from BP1XEUEX032.bp1.ad.bp.com ([149.184.176.166]) by bp1xeuex002.bp1.ad.bp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:09:59 +0100 Received: from BP1XEUAV003.bp1.ad.bp.com ([149.184.176.252]) by BP1XEUEX032.bp1.ad.bp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:09:58 +0100 Received: from mail51.messagelabs.com ([216.82.244.179]) by BP1XEUAV003.bp1.ad.bp.com with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:09:57 +0100 Received: (qmail 12022 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2008 11:09:48 -0000 Received: from mta159.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (HELO mta159.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (77.238.184.26) by server-11.tower-51.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2008 11:09:48 -0000 Received: from 66.163.168.169 (HELO n35c.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com) (66.163.168.169) by mta159.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:09:48 +0000 Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n35.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2008 11:09:45 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.86] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2008 11:09:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.114] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2008 11:09:45 -0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: [jabiruengines] Digest Number 3345 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [jabiruengines] Digest Number 3345 Thread-Index: AcjG/LUgY32tTq2tQ4yUtMO72aZ3Cg= List-Unsubscribe: From: jabiru engines Messages In This Digest (22 Messages) 1a. Alternator stator loose From: Ian Clark 1b. Re: Alternator stator loose From: n282rs@satx.rr.com 2.1. Re: Prop Hub From: Greg Bakker 2.2. Re: Prop Hub From: Tom Covell 2.3. Re: Prop Hub From: Tom Covell 2.4. Re: Prop Hub From: Tom Covell 2.5. Re: Prop Hub From: Ivan 2.6. Re: Prop Hub From: Ivan 2.7. Re: Prop Hub From: palmettoe@aol.com 2.8. Re: Prop Hub From: Ivan 2.9. Re: Prop Hub From: Gerald Boughner 2.10. Re: Prop Hub From: Tom Covell 2.11. Re: Prop Hub From: Ivan 2.12. Re: Prop Hub From: Ivan 2.13. Re: Prop Hub From: Pete 2.14. Re: Prop Hub From: Richard Williams 2.15. Re: Prop Hub From: Ivan 2.16. Re: Prop Hub From: palmettoe@aol.com 3. Prop bolts sheared. From: Bill Evans 4. Re: Where are comments from Jabiru USA? From: Ivan 5. when? who? rebuilding the jab 2200 carburator?? From: bill shamblin 6. Fw: ivan-POH weight / balance / IDE4/ ASI From: Ivan View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages 1a. Alternator stator loose Posted by: "Ian Clark" iclark@rcn.com iancti Wed Jun 4, 2008 4:08 am (PDT) My alternator stator came loose on my last flight it makes a loud whining noise at low rpm that clears when you raise the rpm. There is about 6 clicks per rev when you rotate the prop by hand. I have not checked the extent of the damage yet. I have a 3300 with about 200 hours on it Ian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (2) 1b. Re: Alternator stator loose Posted by: "n282rs@satx.rr.com" n282rs@satx.rr.com r5t0ut21 Wed Jun 4, 2008 6:33 am (PDT) Ian That happened to me on my way back from Copperstate last year. For me, the whirring noise was only there at lower engine speeds. I noticed it first when I throttled back to land at Ft. Stockton, TX. I took it apart as best I could with the couple of tools I had and it just seemed that a couple of the screws were loose. I just tightened them and continued my fight to San Antonio the next morning. Again the same noise happened when I throttled back to land at home. I disassembled the whole thing and found that 3 of the 4 screws that hold the stator in place had broke off. I didn't see any evidence of the magnets hitting the stator. I had made a bracket to support the Ellison throttle body that I have. The bolts for this bracket attach in a couple of empty holes in the same area, so I wondered if they might have penetrated far enough to distort the stator. I ended up replacing the stator mounting screws with AN-3 bolts and added an extra washer under my Ellison bracket. That way I was sure they didn't hit the stator. I also slid a piece of paper between the magnets and stator to verify that there is clearance all around. Its been working for about 30 hours now and I keep a close eye on it. Randy Stout San Antonio TX www.geocities.com/n282rs -----Original Message----- From: "Ian Clark" > Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:11:03 To: > Subject: [jabiruengines] Alternator stator loose My alternator stator came loose on my last flight it makes a loud whining noise at low rpm that clears when you raise the rpm. There is about 6 clicks per rev when you rotate the prop by hand. I have not checked the extent of the damage yet. I have a 3300 with about 200 hours on it Ian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (2) 2.1. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Greg Bakker" gregbakker@hotkey.net.au gregbakker2001 Wed Jun 4, 2008 5:50 am (PDT) What aircraft/propeller combination is this, tractor or pusher? I assume you are talking about the standard Jabiru 2" extension as you mention that bolts were "pulled out of the crankshaft" These would have been lock wired would they not? So would torque be an issue? Unless they were torqued incorrectly at installation. We need some more information here I feel. Greg Bakker Hamilton, Victoria Australia www.varieze.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Covell" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 12:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub > We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of > the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I > understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of > speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. > Might check yours. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > __________ NOD32 3156 (20080603) Information __________ > > > Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.2. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Tom Covell" tomcovell@theriver.com desertfloats Wed Jun 4, 2008 10:27 am (PDT) Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.3. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Tom Covell" tomcovell@theriver.com desertfloats Wed Jun 4, 2008 10:28 am (PDT) Yes it was the flange coming off the crankshaft and yes it was safety wired. _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of John Lamb Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 12:56 AM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub And was it the hub of the prop coming off the flange, or the flange coming off the crankshaft? I assume from the reference to Loctite that it was the latter. Were the nuts lock wired? John Lamb On 04/06/2008, at 2:00 PM, Ivan wrote: > On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? > Ivan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom Covell > To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM > Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub > > We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of > the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I > understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of > speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. > Might check yours. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.4. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Tom Covell" tomcovell@theriver.com desertfloats Wed Jun 4, 2008 10:34 am (PDT) Gregg, It was a tractor installation. It was lock wired and because, as I understand it, the bolts are "loose fit" it seems that the torque and Loc-tite would be an issue. _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Greg Bakker Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 5:50 AM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub What aircraft/propeller combination is this, tractor or pusher? I assume you are talking about the standard Jabiru 2" extension as you mention that bolts were "pulled out of the crankshaft" These would have been lock wired would they not? So would torque be an issue? Unless they were torqued incorrectly at installation. We need some more information here I feel. Greg Bakker Hamilton, Victoria Australia www.varieze.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Covell" com> To: yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 12:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub > We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of > the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I > understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of > speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. > Might check yours. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > __________ NOD32 3156 (20080603) Information __________ > com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.5. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Ivan" imap8ntr@cox.net ivanbrauer Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:13 am (PDT) I have a Sensinich prop ground adjustable on my J-250 which is a S-LSA built by USA Jabiru. The Sensinich manual says to torque the mounting bolts to 180-200 ft-lbs only annually. The hub bolts are torqued each 25 hrs. I have done the hub bolts many times and never had broken the torque. I spoke to the mechanic who did my annual and he said that the mounting bolts did have to be tightened but nothing out of the ordinary. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.6. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Ivan" imap8ntr@cox.net ivanbrauer Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:15 am (PDT) Tom Is you Arion Lightining an S-LSA or E-LSA. If it is an S-LSA I am curious to see what kind of input Arion at Shelbyville has to add. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.7. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "palmettoe@aol.com" palmettoe@aol.com palmettoe Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:17 am (PDT) In a message dated 6/4/2008 2:14:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, imap8ntr@cox.net writes: 180-200 ft-lbs ? Wow! That's a lot! **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod0003000000000 2 ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.8. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Ivan" imap8ntr@cox.net ivanbrauer Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:27 am (PDT) Sorry, in-lbs. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: palmettoe@aol.com To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub In a message dated 6/4/2008 2:14:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, imap8ntr@cox.net writes: 180-200 ft-lbs ? Wow! That's a lot! **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod0003000000000 2 ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.9. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Gerald Boughner" silverflier2000@yahoo.com silverflier2000 Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:29 am (PDT) According to Jabiru's instructions on installing the prop flange: the 6 -3/8" UNF bolts should be torqued to 30 ft/lbs or 40 Nm in a criss cross pattern. Ivan > wrote: I have a Sensinich prop ground adjustable on my J-250 which is a S-LSA built by USA Jabiru. The Sensinich manual says to torque the mounting bolts to 180-200 ft-lbs only annually. The hub bolts are torqued each 25 hrs. I have done the hub bolts many times and never had broken the torque. I spoke to the mechanic who did my annual and he said that the mounting bolts did have to be tightened but nothing out of the ordinary. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.10. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Tom Covell" tomcovell@theriver.com desertfloats Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:47 am (PDT) Ivan, I don't know if it was an E or S. I also have the 3300 and Sensinich ground adjustable. I guess I didn't realize the prop hub bolts had to be torqued every 25 hours--thanks for the info. Tom _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:15 AM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Tom Is you Arion Lightining an S-LSA or E-LSA. If it is an S-LSA I am curious to see what kind of input Arion at Shelbyville has to add. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.11. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Ivan" imap8ntr@cox.net ivanbrauer Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:56 am (PDT) Gerald, Maybe we are talking about two different things. The Sensinich manual says that the bolts mounting the propeller hub to the engine mounting flange should be torqued to 180-200 in lbs. I see in the Jabiru Engine manual that it says to torque the flang bolts to 30 ft-lbs. Maybe the mounting bolts that Sensinich is talking about attatched the hub to the flange and the Jabiru 30 ft-lb torqued bolts are those attatching the flange to the engine shaft and not the prob hub? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Boughner To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub According to Jabiru's instructions on installing the prop flange: the 6 -3/8" UNF bolts should be torqued to 30 ft/lbs or 40 Nm in a criss cross pattern. Ivan > wrote: I have a Sensinich prop ground adjustable on my J-250 which is a S-LSA built by USA Jabiru. The Sensinich manual says to torque the mounting bolts to 180-200 ft-lbs only annually. The hub bolts are torqued each 25 hrs. I have done the hub bolts many times and never had broken the torque. I spoke to the mechanic who did my annual and he said that the mounting bolts did have to be tightened but nothing out of the ordinary. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.12. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Ivan" imap8ntr@cox.net ivanbrauer Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:58 am (PDT) Tom Here is the literature I got with the Sensinich ground adjustable composite prop: see attatched. Make sure it is the right one applying to your prop. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, I don't know if it was an E or S. I also have the 3300 and Sensinich ground adjustable. I guess I didn't realize the prop hub bolts had to be torqued every 25 hours--thanks for the info. Tom _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:15 AM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Tom Is you Arion Lightining an S-LSA or E-LSA. If it is an S-LSA I am curious to see what kind of input Arion at Shelbyville has to add. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.13. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Pete" pete@flylightning.net usjabiru Wed Jun 4, 2008 4:49 pm (PDT) Attention all Jabiru Engine list members, By Thursday morning I will have the correct procedure for installing prop hub extensions on Jabiru engines posted on www.usjabiru.com > in the engine manuals section on the support & service page. That procedure is currently posted at www.jabiru.net.au > under the manuals section in the Airframe Construction Manuals Update table. If you have not installed your prop hub extension using the torque values and sealants specified in the procedure (or in section 12 of the engine manual) you might consider doing it over exactly by the procedure. At this time we have no information as to the cause of the hub leaving the aircraft in Arizona but will be visiting with the NTSB investigator tomorrow. We will pass on any information that the NTSB will authorize. In the mean time, review the procedure from Jabiru and take the action you deem appropriate -- especially if you have not installed the extension with the sealant and torque values specified in the procedure and Section 12 of the engine manual.. Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:56 PM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Gerald, Maybe we are talking about two different things. The Sensinich manual says that the bolts mounting the propeller hub to the engine mounting flange should be torqued to 180-200 in lbs. I see in the Jabiru Engine manual that it says to torque the flang bolts to 30 ft-lbs. Maybe the mounting bolts that Sensinich is talking about attatched the hub to the flange and the Jabiru 30 ft-lb torqued bolts are those attatching the flange to the engine shaft and not the prob hub? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Boughner To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub According to Jabiru's instructions on installing the prop flange: the 6 -3/8" UNF bolts should be torqued to 30 ft/lbs or 40 Nm in a criss cross pattern. Ivan net> wrote: I have a Sensinich prop ground adjustable on my J-250 which is a S-LSA built by USA Jabiru. The Sensinich manual says to torque the mounting bolts to 180-200 ft-lbs only annually. The hub bolts are torqued each 25 hrs. I have done the hub bolts many times and never had broken the torque. I spoke to the mechanic who did my annual and he said that the mounting bolts did have to be tightened but nothing out of the ordinary. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.14. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Richard Williams" rkwill@lewiscounty.com rkwill98356 Wed Jun 4, 2008 5:20 pm (PDT) Palm, others, I suspect the actual value is more like 180-200 INCH pounds rather than foot pounds 180 foot pounds is 2160 inch pounds! I think that NOTHING on the jab should be that tight (2160 inch pounds), including the prop. R. Williams ---------- Original Message ----------- From: palmettoe@aol.com To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:17:15 EDT Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub > In a message dated 6/4/2008 2:14:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > imap8ntr@cox.net writes: > > 180-200 ft-lbs ? Wow! That's a lot! > > **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod0003000000000 2 ) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------- End of Original Message ------- Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.15. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Ivan" imap8ntr@cox.net ivanbrauer Wed Jun 4, 2008 6:50 pm (PDT) Tom, If your plane was built by Arion then it is an S-LSA. If it was built by you then it is probably an E-LSA. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, I don't know if it was an E or S. I also have the 3300 and Sensinich ground adjustable. I guess I didn't realize the prop hub bolts had to be torqued every 25 hours--thanks for the info. Tom _____ From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:15 AM To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Tom Is you Arion Lightining an S-LSA or E-LSA. If it is an S-LSA I am curious to see what kind of input Arion at Shelbyville has to add. Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:25 AM Subject: RE: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub Ivan, An Arion Lightining and a Sensinich ground adjustable. _____ From: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com [mailto:jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:00 PM To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@ yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 2.16. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "palmettoe@aol.com" palmettoe@aol.com palmettoe Thu Jun 5, 2008 2:22 am (PDT) I felt such was the case, just wanted to make everyone aware, thanks John Matthews www.usxair.com In a message dated 6/4/2008 8:21:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rkwill@lewiscounty.com writes: Palm, others, I suspect the actual value is more like 180-200 INCH pounds rather than foot pounds 180 foot pounds is 2160 inch pounds! I think that NOTHING on the jab should be that tight (2160 inch pounds), including the prop. R. Williams ---------- Original Message ----------- From: _palmettoe@aol.pal _ (mailto:palmettoe@aol.com ) To: _jabiruengines@jabiruenginejab_ (mailto:jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com ) Sent: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:17:15 EDT Subject: Re: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub > In a message dated 6/4/2008 2:14:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > _imap8ntr@cox.ima _ (mailto:imap8ntr@cox.net ) writes: > > 180-200 ft-lbs ? Wow! That's a lot! > > ************ **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Wa > Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. > (_http://food.http://food. NCID=aolfodNCID_ (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod0003000000000 2 ) ) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------- End of Original Message ------- **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod0003000000000 2 ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (36) 3. Prop bolts sheared. Posted by: "Bill Evans" wwevans@enter-net.com bil438 Wed Jun 4, 2008 6:54 am (PDT) The only 6 bolt installation I can think of at the front of the engine would be the Prop bolts. As I see it the possibilities/ contributing factors are: 1. Bogus bolts and or Bogus nuts. (I found one at Sun & Fun) 2. Bolt shanks nicked or damaged in service. 2. Improper torque/ Torque not checked (every 25 hours on wooden props.) I found one bolt at 5 ft lbs last time. 3. No Safety devices, ie no lockwire. 4. Prop bushings "climbed" into the wooden prop. 5 Steel bushings incorrectly installed. 6. Nuts bottomed on bolt shanks inducing failure. I found 2 prop bolts with circumferential score marks after I backed them out with a ratchet. These marks would be eliminated if the bolts were driven straight in and straight out. Also the nuts should be torqued while the bolts held still. However the 4 sheared bolts suggest that factors 1 and 6 are more likely causes. One precaution is to determine the exact length needed and buy your bolts from the propeller maker. Bill Evans Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (1) 4. Re: Where are comments from Jabiru USA? Posted by: "Ivan" imap8ntr@cox.net ivanbrauer Wed Jun 4, 2008 10:09 am (PDT) Anyone know where Pete from Jabiru USA is? Havent heard any comments from him in a while. Some concerns of mine were also emailed to Jabiru USA and have not gotten an answer. I wonder if he monitors the jabiruengines group anymore? Ivan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (1) 5. when? who? rebuilding the jab 2200 carburator?? Posted by: "bill shamblin" bshamblin2002@yahoo.com bshamblin2002 Wed Jun 4, 2008 3:14 pm (PDT) flyers, ive started studying my jabiru/bing setup and wonder if the carburator should come off and be rebuilt at some point even if there are no problems?? ( i only have 45 hrs now. ) is this in the literature somewhere? what should be the timing of having the carb rebuilt?? months? flight hours? wait for trouble? who might be specialized in doing a good job with this?? thanks, bill s. in nc Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group Messages in this topic (1) 6. Fw: ivan-POH weight / balance / IDE4/ ASI Posted by: "Ivan" imap8ntr@cox.net ivanbrauer Wed Jun 4, 2008 6:38 pm (PDT) Hi Pete, J-250 owners I have three questions so I am combining them in this email: 1. I noticed that the note that you sent with the new POH and also table 4-3 states to use the appropriate values from the W/B record. I noticed that many of the arms in the POH are also different. I am assuming to always use the ARMS too that came with my actual W/B record for my actual serial number airplane? 2. I was changing the voltage alarm setting on the Grand Rapids EIS and somehow goofed on something. I must have pressed some wrong button after inputting my min volt of 12.4 in the Display 1 bank. I came to a screen that went through Display on the right and going from #1 to 11 on the left. I figured that I would just scroll through and not change anything hoping to return to my default start up page. Instead it kept on scrolling through settings ie: fuel flow, tach, aux1........6, and IDE1, IDE2, IDE3, IDE4, etc. I mistakingly changed the setting on the IDE4 I think one lower. I did not know for sure what IDE4 was set at or what it was so I did not fool with it until I found out. Do you know what IDE4 should be set at and what it is?. It can be found in the Display bank #2. Display #1 looks like it is the normal settings which are shown on the efis in case of an alarm, ie voltage min/max, CHT's, EGT's, Display #2 looked all Greek to me. If there is no IDE4 maybe it is 1D4? 3. Ever since I got my airplane I have had a difference in the indicated airspeed readings of the UMA guage and the EFIS. It took me a while to learn how the EFIS works so I did not make any ealier comments. My steam guage reads consistently 4-6 KIAS less than the EFIS indicated airspeed. I have been flying by the EFIS readings since the plane flies well at that speed and I did not want to error by following the steam guage and flying slow on final approach. It seems like when I am doing slow flight the stall horn sounds about right @6 kts above stall speed and I am not stalled. The steam guage indicates that I am about to stall (the best I can tell.) Because of this I am assuming that the EFIS is accurate and that the steam guage is off. Does this assumption sound right to you? Any other ideas would be welcome. I have learned to trust my EFIS because it is such a great unit so I think the EFIS is probably right. Also I am going to try flying upwind and down wind, adding the indicated airspeeds, divide by 2 and see if this figure matches the GPS EFIS groundspeed. I think this should tell which is accurate? Thanks Ivan Ivan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity * 9 New Members * 2 New Photos Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Game Day Companion Live fantasy league & game stats on TV. Yahoo! News Fashion News What's the word on fashion and style? Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. Need to Reply? Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest. 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Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Received: from bp1xeuex002.bp1.ad.bp.com ([149.184.180.71]) by BP1XEUEX027-C.bp1.ad.bp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:07:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received: from bp1xeuex711.bp1.ad.bp.com ([149.182.218.242]) by bp1xeuex002.bp1.ad.bp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:07:19 +0100 Received: from bp1xeuav707.bp1.ad.bp.com ([149.182.218.238]) by bp1xeuex711.bp1.ad.bp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 4 Jun 2008 11:07:19 +0100 Received: from mail161.messagelabs.com ([216.82.253.115]) by bp1xeuav707.bp1.ad.bp.com with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:07:18 +0100 Received: (qmail 1582 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2008 10:07:12 -0000 Received: from mta160.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (HELO mta160.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (77.238.184.27) by server-4.tower-161.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2008 10:07:12 -0000 Received: from 69.147.64.102 (HELO n9c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.102) by mta160.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:07:11 +0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n9.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2008 10:07:08 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.86] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2008 10:07:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.114] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2008 10:07:08 -0000 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: [jabiruengines] Digest Number 3344 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [jabiruengines] Digest Number 3344 Thread-Index: AcjGKsfz9WsVDUu6QL6qsNfaK5uBwQ= List-Unsubscribe: From: jabiru engines Messages In This Digest (7 Messages) 1. 250 Free Books for Members From: karen.hall35 2a. Rocky Mountain Tandem Wing Fly-In, 6/6/2008, 9:00 am From: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com 2b. Re: Rocky Mountain Tandem Wing Fly-In, 6/6/2008, 9:00 am From: n02ez 3. RPM From: Garth Knowles 4a. Prop Hub From: Tom Covell 4b. Re: Prop Hub From: Ivan 4c. Re: Prop Hub From: John Lamb View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages 1. 250 Free Books for Members Posted by: "karen.hall35" karen.hall35@yahoo.com karen.hall35 Tue Jun 3, 2008 2:53 am (PDT) Dear Members I was sent this fantastic 100% free link by a friend, so I thought I would share it with the group...enjoy! Collect over 250 free books by visiting the link below. They are all INSTANTLY downloadable and there are No Catches! There are so many titles to choose from including fiction, crafts, health & fitness, business and so many more! http://moourl.com/250freebooks When you have had your freebies, be nice to your family and friends and pass it forward, like I did! Take care and have a great week Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (1) 2a. Rocky Mountain Tandem Wing Fly-In, 6/6/2008, 9:00 am Posted by: "jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com" jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Tue Jun 3, 2008 5:56 am (PDT) Reminder from: jabiruengines Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/cal Rocky Mountain Tandem Wing Fly-In Friday June 6, 2008 9:00 am - 10:00 am Location: KCPR Casper, Wy Notes: Friday, Saturday, and Sunday All Rights Reserved Copyright =A9 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (3) 2b. Re: Rocky Mountain Tandem Wing Fly-In, 6/6/2008, 9:00 am Posted by: "n02ez" Reggie@hdwireless.net n02ez Tue Jun 3, 2008 1:31 pm (PDT) > > Reminder from: jabiruengines Yahoo! Group > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/cal > > Rocky Mountain Tandem Wing Fly-In > Friday June 6, 2008 > 9:00 am - 10:00 am > Location: KCPR Casper, Wy >******************************************* Re: Rocky Mountain Tandem Wing Fly-in (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dragonflylist/message/19724 ) Well, it is moot now but the fly-in was planned for next weekend here in Casper, WY. The next fly-in planned as far as I know for the Dragonflies and Quickie's will be in KS it is the main event for these airplanes. Check out last years website at http://www.tandemwing.com/fodfly-in.htm I am not sure that Spud has finalised the dates for this year. Spud, if you are on the list how about an update? Paul Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (3) 3. RPM Posted by: "Garth Knowles" garthknowles@yahoo.com garthknowles Tue Jun 3, 2008 8:01 am (PDT) In my 3300 installation manual (hydraulic lifter model), in Section 15 Propeller Selection, it says "do not cruise or climb in the range of 2100 - 2400 rpm". I can see that climb should be at or close to full power, but what is the issue with cruise at this power setting? Is this common for any engine or unique to the Jab? Thx Garth Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (1) 4a. Prop Hub Posted by: "Tom Covell" tomcovell@theriver.com desertfloats Tue Jun 3, 2008 7:01 pm (PDT) We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (20) 4b. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "Ivan" imap8ntr@cox.net ivanbrauer Tue Jun 3, 2008 9:00 pm (PDT) On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Covell To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. Might check yours. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (20) 4c. Re: Prop Hub Posted by: "John Lamb" jlamb@tpg.com.au zzjlamb Wed Jun 4, 2008 12:56 am (PDT) And was it the hub of the prop coming off the flange, or the flange coming off the crankshaft? I assume from the reference to Loctite that it was the latter. Were the nuts lock wired? John Lamb On 04/06/2008, at 2:00 PM, Ivan wrote: > On what kind of airplane was the installation and what kind of prop? > Ivan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom Covell > To: jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:01 PM > Subject: [jabiruengines] Prop Hub > > We had a prop hub come off of a 3300. Preliminary info is that 4 of > the bolts were sheared and two were pulled out of the crankshaft. I > understand that Jabiru engineers are looking at it tomorrow. Lots of > speculation including proper Loc-tite (blue?) and proper torque. > Might check yours. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Back to top Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post Messages in this topic (20) Recent Activity * 9 New Members * 2 New Photos Visit Your Group Y! Sports for TV Access it for free Get Fantasy Sports stats on your TV. Yahoo! News Odd News You won't believe it, but it's true Yahoo! Finance It's Now Personal Guides, news, advice & more. Need to Reply? Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest. Create New Topic | Visit Your Group on the Web Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar MARKETPLACE Blockbuster is giving away a free trial of Blockbuster Total Access to smart movie lovers like you. Yahoo! Groups Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! 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________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:48 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: June Lightning Newsletter In a message dated 6/5/2008 9:16:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dashvii@hotmail.com writes: It's too quiet on here. Hi Brain, Thanks for the kind words on the newsletters. Those bits of encouragement from our readers are what make me stay up late into the night working on the next issue to try to provide an interesting, informative, and entertaining newsletter. Sometimes the ideas and words flow as quickly as jet fuel through an F-4's J-79 in full afterburner, but at other times, I can't seem to think of a thing to say. That is when inputs from our Lightning flyers, builders, and newsletter readers are so important. And yes, it has been too quiet on the list recently. My guess is that most of us are still in shock after hearing about the tragic loss of our good friend and fellow Lightning enthusiast, Jerry Van Heeswyk. Most of us that have been in aviation for any time at all have probably been through this type of sad event before. It is sometimes hard to understand the "why", but we can often take comfort in the fact that as we continue enjoying our common love of the "Lightning" and sharing information about it, we are doing exactly what Jerry would want us to do. Having said that, lets keep the flow of information "turned on". Lightning flyers, builders, and all on the list, all of you have something to share with the rest of the group, so send an email to the list or directly to me for the newsletter. Your information, and your willingness to share it, is what makes the newsletter informative and interesting. As to an update on the Arizona accident, I am sure that Arion will soon be able to provide some information and facts. However, remember that the NTSB and FAA are responsible for the investigation and their final report will take some time to complete. Until then, any speculation as to "what and how" would not be in the best interest of all involved. Blue skies and "nunc est bibendum." Buz **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:33 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: June Lightning Newsletter Always the case with a somber mood... On 6/6/08, N1BZRich@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 6/5/2008 9:16:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > dashvii@hotmail.com writes: > > It's too quiet on here. > > Hi Brain, > Thanks for the kind words on the newsletters. Those bits of > encouragement from our readers are what make me stay up late into the night > working on the next issue to try to provide an interesting, informative, and > entertaining newsletter. Sometimes the ideas and words flow as quickly as > jet fuel through an F-4's J-79 in full afterburner, but at other times, I > can't seem to think of a thing to say. That is when inputs from our > Lightning flyers, builders, and newsletter readers are so important. > And yes, it has been too quiet on the list recently. My guess is that > most of us are still in shock after hearing about the tragic loss of our > good friend and fellow Lightning enthusiast, Jerry Van Heeswyk. Most of us > that have been in aviation for any time at all have probably been through > this type of sad event before. It is sometimes hard to understand the > "why", but we can often take comfort in the fact that as we continue > enjoying our common love of the "Lightning" and sharing information about > it, we are doing exactly what Jerry would want us to do. > Having said that, lets keep the flow of information "turned on". > Lightning flyers, builders, and all on the list, all of you have something > to share with the rest of the group, so send an email to the list or > directly to me for the newsletter. Your information, and your willingness > to share it, is what makes the newsletter informative and interesting. > As to an update on the Arizona accident, I am sure that Arion will soon > be able to provide some information and facts. However, remember that the > NTSB and FAA are responsible for the investigation and their final report > will take some time to complete. Until then, any speculation as to "what > and how" would not be in the best interest of all involved. > Blue skies and *"nunc est bibendum."* > Buz > > > ------------------------------ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" > on AOL Food > . > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:54 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash In a message dated 6/6/2008 10:31:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhausch@charter.net writes: Respectfully, when might we get some add'l news on this unfortunate accident? I'm sympathetic about your interest, but it prompts my problem-solving inclination. In my opinion the accident breaks down into two parts. 1) The prop went away in flight but was recovered whole. that means the prop flange to engine components failed for some reason.....metal fatigue, bad bolts, or loose bolts. I am betting on loose or bad bolts....since no other Jabs have lost the prop. Even when Nick hit the turkey vulture in flight with the prop, splintering it into toothpicks, the flange was fine and is still flying. We will likely get some definitive statement in the coming months, but it is safe to say that checking the prop to engine attachment by wiggling the prop is a must before flights, in my opinion. I am suggesting a careful wiggle in the 12 oclock and also in the 9 oclock position. It shouldn't wiggle at all, but be sure it is not the engine mounts. Might not be a bad idea to check the torque on the flange bolts soon. I dont expect much more on that subject until the metallurgical data comes in. 2) The second issue is the piloting after the prop went away. It think is a reasonable conclusion that there was some loss of control with a resulting impact. Whatever the details, I think the lesson to all of us is to practice emergency procedures and to always have a plan to land when flying below 2,000 feet agl. I observe that the Lightning is a "step-up" airplane for a good portion of the builders and requires more attention than their previous birds. Things happen faster. People want responsive controls, but that responsiveness means you get into trouble much faster, particularly if destracted. I see panels getting cluttered with lots of information-giving instruments. Perhaps the first emergency procedure if you are less than 2,000 feet agl should be to shut off the Master Switch!!!! That would focus attention on flying and landing rather than the panel! Of course it would also mean you should wire your flaps (and boost pump) directly to the battery, since not using flaps on landing has also contributed to accidents. My real point is that having sound emergency procedures that focus on flying the plane is important and must be practiced. On my first flight in a Lightning, to get the feel of the plane, I did a simulated approach and takeoff at a paved runway and had the engine quit at about 500 feet just after I passed the end of the runway. While thinking about wether to land in the trees or the Potomac River, " I hit the boost pump and changed tanks. I had practiced that response previously, so it was automatic. Thankfully the engine started running normally again and I went to my home field and landed. My practicing paid off. The actions of our departed colleague may be discussed at length as more is known; however, the admonition will be the same. 1) Fly the plane first .2)practice flying the plane first 3)plan to land when the engine quits 4) dont make turns if possible. I suppose I am a bit of an idealist, but I think we honor the memory of a person by using their life as a lesson and admonition. My suggestion is that we adjust our flying behaviors and train ourselves to handle similar emergencies as an offering of honor.... that is something we can do right now. I have a feeling that more details about the pilots actions will not change the conclusions we might make. Doug Koenigsberg **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:57 AM PST US From: Hugh Sontag Subject: Lightning-List: Lightning crosswind ability What is a reasonable maximum crosswind component for a Lightning? What have pilots successfully landed in? Would you do it again, or did the experience bring new meaning to the term "personal limits" ? What's a reasonable crosswind component for a pilot with recent crosswind experience? Is anyone willing to mention or propose the equivalent of "maximum demonstrated crosswind component" ? Hugh Sontag ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:25 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash In a message dated 6/6/2008 12:02:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kayberg@AOL.COM writes: My real point is that having sound emergency procedures that focus on flyin g the plane is important and must be practiced. Right on Doug, in fact that is exactly what the Lightning Flight Manual say s in section 3, Emergency Procedures (see below). Blue Skies, Buz NOTE In any emergency situation the most important initial actions are: =B7 First - Maintain aircraft control =B7 Then - Analyze the situation then take appropriate action =B7 Land as soon as practicable. In other words: Do not forget to FLY THE AIRCRAFT. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:07 AM PST US From: EAFerguson@aol.com Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning crosswind ability In a message dated 6/6/2008 12:47:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, flying@qdea.com writes: > What is a reasonable maximum crosswind component for a Lightning? > Hugh, I have several landings and TOs with a 15K cross wind component on a dry runway. Two persons aboard at close to max gross, the aircraft could handle more crosswind. However, on a wet runway and at lighter weights, I have had the aircraft skid sideways. On nice wide runways this isn't a problem, although a bit disconcerting. Since I usually fly solo, I would prefer less camber that is provided to reduce this tendency. I discussed this with Nick, and Arion's position is that the camber is set for max gross weight. Nick may want to respond on this point. Simple answer: At least 15 K on a dry runway at heavier weights. At lighter weights and on wet or narrow runways, do be careful. Personal experience, not be be taken as gospel. Your mileage may vary. Earl Freguson N17EF ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:32 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning crosswind ability In a message dated 6/6/2008 12:47:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, flying@qdea.com writes: What is a reasonable maximum crosswind component for a Lightning? What have pilots successfully landed in? Would you do it again, or did the experience bring new meaning to the term "personal limits" ? What's a reasonable crosswind component for a pilot with recent crosswind experience? Is anyone willing to mention or propose the equivalent of "maximum demonstrated crosswind component" ? Hugh, Not sure what you mean by that last statement, but here are some "answers" to your other questions. I am pretty sure that Nick currently uses 15 knots as the max demonstrated crosswind for the Lightning. He and I have both landed the Lightning in "somewhat" more. The most I have had to deal with was a direct 17 gusting to the high twenties. The runway was long and wide and the Lightning handled it well. Actually I was flying Linda's Lightning on its third flight and the "weather changed" - so to speak. As to "what is reasonable crosswind component for a pilot with recent crosswind experience" the answer is it depends. It depends not only on the pilot recent experience but also depends on the following: -what kind of airplane was that recent experience in? -what was the recent cross component that the pilot handled? -is the cross wind steady or gusting? -how wide (and long is the runway)? -is the runway dry? -have you practiced landings with less than normal flaps (30 degrees) recently? (stall speed will vary with flaps used and aircraft weight at the time of landing. The lower the stall speed the more cross control you will need to use to counter the x-wind. The Lightning has sufficient control to handle more than the 15 knots if the pilot has the recent experience and proficiency) -is there a divert airport with a runway more into the wind? You may be able to think of other variables as well, but you get the point. Flying is a process of continually making decisions. The more experience and data points you have in your "bag of tricks" the better off you are. In fact, I am sure that is why you posed the question - more info for your "bag of tricks". Blue Skies, Buz **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:01 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning crosswind ability Earl; how would you compare the rudder authority of the lightning say, compared to a 172? On 6/6/08, EAFerguson@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 6/6/2008 12:47:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > flying@qdea.com writes: > > What is a reasonable maximum crosswind component for a Lightning? > > > Hugh, > > I have several landings and TOs with a 15K cross wind component on a dry > runway. Two persons aboard at close to max gross, the aircraft could handle > more crosswind. > > However, on a wet runway and at lighter weights, I have had the aircraft > skid sideways. > On nice wide runways this isn't a problem, although a bit disconcerting. > Since I usually fly solo, I would prefer less camber that is provided to > reduce this tendency. I discussed this with Nick, and Arion's position is > that the camber is set for max gross weight. Nick may want to respond on > this point. > > Simple answer: At least 15 K on a dry runway at heavier weights. At lighter > weights and on wet or narrow runways, do be careful. > > Personal experience, not be be taken as gospel. Your mileage may vary. > > Earl Freguson > N17EF > > > ************** > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" > on AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:30 AM PST US From: "Johnny Thompson" <14az@mysprocketmail.com> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash I understand everyone wanting to know everything about the crash, why and how. That answer will most likely take months. Normally NTSB would not investigate the accident since it is an experimental aircraft. However, they are. This is good for us, as they will inspect and test each possible area and when completed report. The preliminary copy is below. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp Please note that as with all first reports, much of the information can be wrong. Initial information is often from non-aviation observers. As for what went wrong Lightning or other manufacturers would be involved in aiding the investigation if requested and they volunteered to do so. If they aid in the investigation they will not be allowed to discuss anything to anyone other then the investigating team. Until the investigation is closed, only NTSB can release information. If they find a major problem that effects safety of flight of all similar equipment, normally, a notice could proceed a completed report. Please don't guess. For all those that knew Jerry, flew and worked along side of him and were with him before and after the crash, your guess and thoughts on what happened and what he did after the prop left the aircraft is tearing us apart. It will come out in the report. I will say this, when wondering why he as a pilot did or did not react, WE DO NOT KNOW. In combat my aircraft was hit and the explosion blew off the front of the aircraft. The aircraft could still fly. However, it started falling out of control. My copilot/gunner took over and saved us because on my lack of ability to react and fly. My excuse was I had a bullet logged in my spine and could not react. During any incident when things come off or break they do collateral damage. I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS HAPPENED TO JERRY. Please back off and save the "what ifs" till we know all the facts. As for checking the torque on the flange to crankshaft, DO IT BY THE BOOK ONLY. If you followed the Jabiru manual, when assembling the aircraft you should be ok. If you check the torque, then go by the book. I have an electronic torque tester that must be used for this operation. If you move the bolt, and you will, you must remove and reinstall per the Jabriu instruction since you just destroyed the sealant. Use only the prescribed sealant but check for new any sealants recommended. It would be best for all of us to wait for Arion to tell us what to do. Ok to question ourselves, but please stop there. Some of us are very sensitive due to loosing a good friend. Johnny Thompson NTSB Identification: SEA08LA149 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Sunday, June 01, 2008 in Marana, AZ Aircraft: Van Heeswyk Lightning, registration: N62JV Injuries: 1 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On June 1, 2008 about 0816 mountain standard time, an amateur built Van Heeswyk Lightning airplane, N62JV, registered to and operated by the pilot, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain while maneuvering near Marana, Arizona. The private pilot, who was the sole occupant of the airplane, was killed. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed for the personal local flight that was operated under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The flight departed from Ryan Field Airport, Tucson, Arizona, about 0559. Witnesses located adjacent to the accident site reported observing the propeller assembly separate from the airplane as it flew over their position. One witness stated that after the propeller separated, the airplane pitched upwards and subsequently descended into terrain. Another witness reported hearing the "engine rev up" just prior to the airplane impacting the ground. Examination of the airplane by a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector revealed that the airplane came to rest in an upright position within an open field. The fuselage was partially separated aft of the cabin. All primary flight controls were located within the accident site. The propeller assembly and propeller flange extension were found separated from the engine and were located about .62 miles southwest of the accident site. The wreckage was recovered to a secure location for further examination ----- Original Message ----- From: Kayberg@AOL.COM To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:57 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash In a message dated 6/6/2008 10:31:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhausch@charter.net writes: Respectfully, when might we get some add'l news on this unfortunate accident? I'm sympathetic about your interest, but it prompts my problem-solving inclination. In my opinion the accident breaks down into two parts. 1) The prop went away in flight but was recovered whole. that means the prop flange to engine components failed for some reason.....metal fatigue, bad bolts, or loose bolts. I am betting on loose or bad bolts....since no other Jabs have lost the prop. Even when Nick hit the turkey vulture in flight with the prop, splintering it into toothpicks, the flange was fine and is still flying. We will likely get some definitive statement in the coming months, but it is safe to say that checking the prop to engine attachment by wiggling the prop is a must before flights, in my opinion. I am suggesting a careful wiggle in the 12 oclock and also in the 9 oclock position. It shouldn't wiggle at all, but be sure it is not the engine mounts. Might not be a bad idea to check the torque on the flange bolts soon. I dont expect much more on that subject until the metallurgical data comes in. 2) The second issue is the piloting after the prop went away. It think is a reasonable conclusion that there was some loss of control with a resulting impact. Whatever the details, I think the lesson to all of us is to practice emergency procedures and to always have a plan to land when flying below 2,000 feet agl. I observe that the Lightning is a "step-up" airplane for a good portion of the builders and requires more attention than their previous birds. Things happen faster. People want responsive controls, but that responsiveness means you get into trouble much faster, particularly if destracted. I see panels getting cluttered with lots of information-giving instruments. Perhaps the first emergency procedure if you are less than 2,000 feet agl should be to shut off the Master Switch!!!! That would focus attention on flying and landing rather than the panel! Of course it would also mean you should wire your flaps (and boost pump) directly to the battery, since not using flaps on landing has also contributed to accidents. My real point is that having sound emergency procedures that focus on flying the plane is important and must be practiced. On my first flight in a Lightning, to get the feel of the plane, I did a simulated approach and takeoff at a paved runway and had the engine quit at about 500 feet just after I passed the end of the runway. While thinking about wether to land in the trees or the Potomac River, " I hit the boost pump and changed tanks. I had practiced that response previously, so it was automatic. Thankfully the engine started running normally again and I went to my home field and landed. My practicing paid off. The actions of our departed colleague may be discussed at length as more is known; however, the admonition will be the same. 1) Fly the plane first .2)practice flying the plane first 3)plan to land when the engine quits 4) dont make turns if possible. I suppose I am a bit of an idealist, but I think we honor the memory of a person by using their life as a lesson and admonition. My suggestion is that we adjust our flying behaviors and train ourselves to handle similar emergencies as an offering of honor.... that is something we can do right now. I have a feeling that more details about the pilots actions will not change the conclusions we might make. Doug Koenigsberg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:26 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash Very well said Johnny. The worst thing we can do is make "assumptions" after the fact in a case like this. This is the reason that I stopped participating in the AOPA forums. It runs wild with people that have littl e respect for others in this kind of situation and make many assumptions even before any kind of report is out. My mind goes back to the P-51 crash last year at Oshkosh on that one=85 The list has been pretty quiet over the past week, I believe out of respec t for Jerry. We all feel your pain, perhaps not to the degree you do, but nevertheless, we feel it. Over time, the conversation on the list will pick up and the healing proces s will take care of itself. Until then, I agree with you that we would be best to keep our interpretation and advice to ourselves until some kind of "official" report is made. On 6/6/08, Johnny Thompson <14az@mysprocketmail.com> wrote: > > I understand everyone wanting to know everything about the crash, why an d > how. That answer will most likely take months. Normally NTSB would not > investigate the accident since it is an experimental aircraft. However, > they are. This is good for us, as they will inspect and test each possibl e > area and when completed report. The preliminary copy is below. > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp Please note that as with all first > reports, much of the information can be wrong. Initial information is oft en > from non-aviation observers. As for what went wrong Lightning or other > manufacturers would be involved in aiding the investigation if requested and > they volunteered to do so. If they aid in the investigation they will not be > allowed to discuss anything to anyone other then the investigating team. > Until the investigation is closed, only NTSB can release information. If > they find a major problem that effects safety of flight of all similar > equipment, normally, a notice could proceed a completed report. > > Please don't guess. For all those that knew Jerry, flew and worked along > side of him and were with him before and after the crash, your guess and > thoughts on what happened and what he did after the prop left the aircraf t > is tearing us apart. It will come out in the report. I will say this, wh en > wondering why he as a pilot did or did not react, WE DO NOT KNOW. In comb at > my aircraft was hit and the explosion blew off the front of the aircraft. > The aircraft could still fly. However, it started falling out of control .. > My copilot/gunner took over and saved us because on my lack of ability to > react and fly. My excuse was I had a bullet logged in my spine and could not > react. During any incident when things come off or break they do collater al > damage. I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS HAPPENED TO JERRY. Please back off and save > the "what ifs" till we know all the facts. > > As for checking the torque on the flange to crankshaft, DO IT BY THE BOOK > ONLY. If you followed the Jabiru manual, when assembling the aircraft you > should be ok. If you check the torque, then go by the book. I have an > electronic torque tester that must be used for this operation. If you mov e > the bolt, and you will, you must remove and reinstall per the Jabriu > instruction since you just destroyed the sealant. Use only the prescribed > sealant but check for new any sealants recommended. > > It would be best for all of us to wait for Arion to tell us what to do. O k > to question ourselves, but please stop there. Some of us are very sensiti ve > due to loosing a good friend. > Johnny Thompson NTSB Identification: *SEA08LA149* > 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation > Accident occurred Sunday, June 01, 2008 in Marana, AZ > Aircraft: Van Heeswyk Lightning, registration: N62JV > Injuries: 1 Fatal. > > This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain error s. > Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has bee n > completed. > On June 1, 2008 about 0816 mountain standard time, an amateur built Van > Heeswyk Lightning airplane, N62JV, registered to and operated by the pilo t, > was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain while maneuvering near > Marana, Arizona. The private pilot, who was the sole occupant of the > airplane, was killed. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no > flight plan was filed for the personal local flight that was operated und er > the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The > flight departed from Ryan Field Airport, Tucson, Arizona, about 0559. > > Witnesses located adjacent to the accident site reported observing the > propeller assembly separate from the airplane as it flew over their > position. One witness stated that after the propeller separated, the > airplane pitched upwards and subsequently descended into terrain. Another > witness reported hearing the "engine rev up" just prior to the airplane > impacting the ground. > > Examination of the airplane by a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) > inspector revealed that the airplane came to rest in an upright position > within an open field. The fuselage was partially separated aft of the cab in. > All primary flight controls were located within the accident site. The > propeller assembly and propeller flange extension were found separated fr om > the engine and were located about .62 miles southwest of the accident sit e. > The wreckage was recovered to a secure location for further examination > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Kayberg@AOL.COM > *To:* lightning-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 8:57 AM > *Subject:* Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash > > > In a message dated 6/6/2008 10:31:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jhausch@charter.net writes: > > Respectfully, when might we get some add'l news on this unfortunate > accident? > > > I'm sympathetic about your interest, but it prompts my problem-solving > inclination. In my opinion the accident breaks down into two parts. > > 1) The prop went away in flight but was recovered whole. that means the > prop flange to engine components failed for some reason.....metal fatigue , > bad bolts, or loose bolts. I am betting on loose or bad bolts....since no > other Jabs have lost the prop. Even when Nick hit the turkey vulture in > flight with the prop, splintering it into toothpicks, the flange was fine > and is still flying. > > We will likely get some definitive statement in the coming months, bu t > it is safe to say that checking the prop to engine attachment by wiggling > the prop is a must before flights, in my opinion. I am suggesting a care ful > wiggle in the 12 oclock and also in the 9 oclock position. It shouldn't > wiggle at all, but be sure it is not the engine mounts. Might not be a b ad > idea to check the torque on the flange bolts soon. > > I dont expect much more on that subject until the metallurgical data > comes in. > > 2) The second issue is the piloting after the prop went away. It think i s > a reasonable conclusion that there was some loss of control with a result ing > impact. Whatever the details, I think the lesson to all of us is to > practice emergency procedures and to always have a plan to land when flyi ng > below 2,000 feet agl. > > I observe that the Lightning is a "step-up" airplane for a good portion o f > the builders and requires more attention than their previous birds. Thin gs > happen faster. People want responsive controls, but that responsiveness > means you get into trouble much faster, particularly if destracted. I se e > panels getting cluttered with lots of information-giving instruments. > Perhaps the first emergency procedure if you are less than 2,000 feet agl > should be to shut off the Master Switch!!!! That would focus attention on > flying and landing rather than the panel! Of course it would also mean you > should wire your flaps (and boost pump) directly to the battery, since no t > using flaps on landing has also contributed to accidents. > > My real point is that having sound emergency procedures that focus on > flying the plane is important and must be practiced. On my first flight in > a Lightning, to get the feel of the plane, I did a simulated approach and > takeoff at a paved runway and had the engine quit at about 500 feet just > after I passed the end of the runway. While thinking about wether to lan d > in the trees or the Potomac River, " I hit the boost pump and changed > tanks. I had practiced that response previously, so it was automatic. > Thankfully the engine started running normally again and I went to my hom e > field and landed. My practicing paid off. > > The actions of our departed colleague may be discussed at length as more is > known; *however*, the admonition will be the same. 1) Fly the plane firs t > .2)practice flying the plane first 3)plan to land when the engine quits 4) > dont make turns if possible. > > I suppose I am a bit of an idealist, but I think we honor the memory of a > person by using their life as a lesson and admonition. My suggestion is > that we adjust our flying behaviors and train ourselves to handle similar > emergencies as an offering of honor.... that is something we can do right > now. > > I have a feeling that more details about the pilots actions will not chan ge > the conclusions we might make. > > > Doug Koenigsberg > > > ------------------------------ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence " > on AOL Food > . > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:03 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash From: "jhausch" I am sorry for your loss and appreciate the direction to the NTSB site. I am glad to hear they are involved in this investigation. Although, if they normally do not investigate accidents of experimentals, I wonder why they are now. I did not mean to start conjecture and speculation with my inquiry, I was only asking for any new information if available. Respectfully, Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186537#186537 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:52 PM PST US From: "Johnny Thompson" <14az@mysprocketmail.com> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash ----- Original Message ----- From: "jhausch" Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:43 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash I served many years as an aviation accident investigation team member. Sometimes a death will cause an investigation or if some part is also on certified aircraft. Many other reasons also can bring an investigation. I would suggest reading NTSB PART 830 - Notification and reporting of aircraft accidents and --------. Being operated under LSA rules could cause an investigation since this is a new area and not much data is around yet. Johnny Although, if they normally do not investigate accidents of experimentals, I wonder why they are now. , > Jim > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:56 PM PST US From: Hugh Sontag Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning crosswind ability Buz, I understand what you're getting at. The pilot's experience and ability, coupled with other environmental factors such as gusts, runway condition, etc. in a crosswind situation is as important as the characteristics of the aircraft. I was trying to get some information on what those with some experience with the Lightning found with regard to the characteristics of the aircraft in crosswind situations, and you and Earl have done that. Thanks! Hugh Sontag >In a message dated 6/6/2008 12:47:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >flying@qdea.com writes: > >What is a reasonable maximum crosswind component for a Lightning? > >What have pilots successfully landed in? Would you do it again, or >did the experience bring new meaning to the term "personal limits" ? > >What's a reasonable crosswind component for a pilot with recent >crosswind experience? > >Is anyone willing to mention or propose the equivalent of "maximum >demonstrated crosswind component" ? > >Hugh, > Not sure what you mean by that last statement, but here are some >"answers" to your other questions. >I am pretty sure that Nick currently uses 15 knots as the max >demonstrated crosswind for the Lightning. He and I have both landed >the Lightning in "somewhat" more. The most I have had to deal with >was a direct 17 gusting to the high twenties. The runway was long >and wide and the Lightning handled it well. Actually I was >flying Linda's Lightning on its third flight and the "weather >changed" - so to speak. > As to "what is reasonable crosswind component for a pilot with >recent crosswind experience" the answer is it depends. It depends >not only on the pilot recent experience but also depends on the >following: >-what kind of airplane was that recent experience in? >-what was the recent cross component that the pilot handled? >-is the cross wind steady or gusting? >-how wide (and long is the runway)? >-is the runway dry? >-have you practiced landings with less than normal flaps (30 >degrees) recently? (stall speed will vary with flaps used and >aircraft weight at the time of landing. The lower the stall speed >the more cross control you will need to use to counter the x-wind. >The Lightning has sufficient control to handle more than the 15 >knots if the pilot has the recent experience and proficiency) >-is there a divert airport with a runway more into the wind? >You may be able to think of other variables as well, but you get the >point. Flying is a process of continually making decisions. The >more experience and data points you have in your "bag of tricks" the >better off you are. In fact, I am sure that is why you posed the >question - more info for your "bag of tricks". >Blue Skies, >Buz > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:56 PM PST US From: "Tex Mantell" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time Jim, lets see a photo of the completed project, Tex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Langley To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:29 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time Short of a few odds and ends like putting my tail number on and doing a weight and balance, I am FINISHED WITH MY LIGHTNING!!! (happy days, huh?) Anyway, I have been spending some time talking with Ryan and Buz about the next steps after the airworthyness inspection, and before I actually strap myself into the seat and take off. This is the way I am approaching things, your comments are welcome: 1.. In preparation for flying my aircraft, I tried to find something that I could rent that was close in type, i.e. stick, low wing, nose wheel, etc. it is however, hard to be flying when you are spending time and money building, but I have logged some hours. 2.. I called Falcon and secured insurance on my Lightning with Ryan included. 3.. Ryan will be flying the first 5+ hours, and we will work together to make sure everything is working as it should and nothing is going to "fall off". 4.. Per suggestion, I am looking for something like a Katana to rent and fly, as from what I have heard, it is pretty close to the Lightning in feel. Right now I am flying a Evektor SportStar only because it is the only small low wing with a stick that I can find to rent. 5.. Establish a defined test plan for multi-phase testing per FAA Advisory Circular 90-89 and contingency plan for emergencies. I have been working off of a graciously supplied example for this. 6.. I think after I have a few hours in my aircraft, I will be taking it home right away. Lancaster, (KLNS) has two nice long and wide runways and lots of room to fly, so I can practice different types of takeoffs and landings, and my area has a fair number of airports close, so I can "ring er out" and still be within gliding distance of a good place to land. This will help to break in the engine and build time on the aircraft. Doing mostly landings and takeoffs is a little tougher on the engine during the break-in period. 7.. While I am flying and recording results, use this information to develop an aircraft manual with weight & balance, limitations, performance data, etc=85 The cool thing about the MGL Odyssey that I put in the panel is that it can act like a "black box" flight recorder and write this data to a SDRam card while in flight. I can then go back and use this information to learn more about my flight performance and characteristics; neat! Once I have flown off the hours and am totally comfortable with the aircraft, I can finally take my daughter up for a ride. (She's been bugging me from day one). ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:35 PM PST US From: Hugh Sontag Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash I always thought that ultralight accidents were not investigated by Federal officals, but that accidents involving N-numbered aircraft always are. As a friend of mine once said, from the point of view of the FAA, ultralights aren't airplanes, and therefore aren't regulated as such. Hugh Sontag ><14az@mysprocketmail.com> > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "jhausch" >To: >Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:43 AM >Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash > >I served many years as an aviation accident investigation team >member. Sometimes a death will cause an investigation or if some >part is also on certified aircraft. Many other reasons also can >bring an investigation. I would suggest reading NTSB PART 830 - >Notification and reporting of aircraft accidents and --------. Being >operated under LSA rules could cause an investigation since this is >a new area and not much data is around yet. Johnny > > > Although, if they normally do not investigate accidents of >experimentals, I wonder why they are now. >, >>Jim >> > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:16 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time oops, I expect to have one this weekend, will post it on the list... On 6/6/08, Tex Mantell wrote: > > Jim, lets see a photo of the completed project, Tex > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jim Langley > *To:* lightning-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 10:29 AM > *Subject:* Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time > > > Short of a few odds and ends like putting my tail number on and doing a > weight and balance, I am FINISHED WITH MY LIGHTNING!!! > > > (happy days, huh?) > > > Anyway, I have been spending some time talking with Ryan and Buz about th e > next steps after the airworthyness inspection, and before I actually stra p > myself into the seat and take off. > > > This is the way I am approaching things, your comments are welcome: > > > 1. In preparation for flying my aircraft, I tried to find something > that I could rent that was close in type, i.e. stick, low wing, nose w heel, > etc. it is however, hard to be flying when you are spending time and > money building, but I have logged some hours. > 2. I called Falcon and secured insurance on my Lightning with Ryan > included. > 3. Ryan will be flying the first 5+ hours, and we will work together t o > make sure everything is working as it should and nothing is going to " fall > off". > 4. Per suggestion, I am looking for something like a Katana to rent an d > fly, as from what I have heard, it is pretty close to the Lightning in feel. > Right now I am flying a Evektor SportStar only because it is the only > small low wing with a stick that I can find to rent. > 5. Establish a defined test plan for multi-phase testing per FAA > Advisory Circular 90-89 and contingency plan for emergencies. I have > been working off of a graciously supplied example for this. > 6. I think after I have a few hours in my aircraft, I will be taking i t > home right away. Lancaster, (KLNS) has two nice long and wide runways > and lots of room to fly, so I can practice different types of takeoffs and > landings, and my area has a fair number of airports close, so I can "r ing er > out" and still be within gliding distance of a good place to land. Th is > will help to break in the engine and build time on the aircraft. Doin g > mostly landings and takeoffs is a little tougher on the engine during the > break-in period. > 7. While I am flying and recording results, use this information to > develop an aircraft manual with weight & balance, limitations, perform ance > data, etc=85 > > > The cool thing about the MGL Odyssey that I put in the panel is that it c an > act like a "black box" flight recorder and write this data to a SDRam car d > while in flight. I can then go back and use this information to learn > more about my flight performance and characteristics; neat! > > > Once I have flown off the hours and am totally comfortable with the > aircraft, I can finally take my daughter up for a ride. (She's been > bugging me from day one). > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:02 PM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash In a message dated 6/6/2008 1:51:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 14az@mysprocketmail.com writes: I understand everyone wanting to know everything about the crash, why and how. That answer will most likely take months. Normally NTSB would not investigate the accident since it is an experimental aircraft. However, they are. This is good for us, as they will inspect and test each possible area and when completed report. The preliminary copy is below. _http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp_ (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp) Please note that as with all first reports, much of the information can be wrong. Initial information is often from non-aviation observers. As for what went wrong Lightning or other manufacturers would be involved in aiding the investigation if requested and they volunteered to do so. If they aid in the investigation they will not be allowed to discuss anything to anyone other then the investigating team. Until the investigation is closed, only NTSB can release information. If they find a major problem that effects safety of flight of all similar equipment, normally, a notice could proceed a completed report. Please don't guess. For all those that knew Jerry, flew and worked along side of him and were with him before and after the crash, your guess and thoughts on what happened and what he did after the prop left the aircraft is tearing us apart. It will come out in the report. I will say this, when wondering why he as a pilot did or did not react, WE DO NOT KNOW. In combat my aircraft was hit and the explosion blew off the front of the aircraft. The aircraft could still fly. However, it started falling out of control. My copilot/gunner took over and saved us because on my lack of ability to react and fly. My excuse was I had a bullet logged in my spine and could not react. During any incident when things come off or break they do collateral damage. I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS HAPPENED TO JERRY. Please back off and save the "what ifs" till we know all the facts. As for checking the torque on the flange to crankshaft, DO IT BY THE BOOK ONLY. If you followed the Jabiru manual, when assembling the aircraft you should be ok. If you check the torque, then go by the book. I have an electronic torque tester that must be used for this operation. If you move the bolt, and you will, you must remove and reinstall per the Jabriu instruction since you just destroyed the sealant. Use only the prescribed sealant but check for new any sealants recommended. It would be best for all of us to wait for Arion to tell us what to do. Ok to question ourselves, but please stop there. Some of us are very sensitive due to loosing a good friend. Johnny Thompson Sorry, but I have to respond. First, I and everyone else that I have seen respond on this listserve joins you in mourning a loss. We all feel bad about this for a number of reasons. Most of us have lost friends in experimental aircraft accidents and can remember the pain. We are not trying to be insensitive. I had a ringside seat for the Mustang crash at OshKosh this past year. I still think about it. I do understand that none of us will know what really happened in the cockpit on that fateful day. I'm sure you are all considering the implications also. But out of a concern for those who are flying Lightnings even today, I wanted to cut to some possible actions. I hope we can separate out some emotions so we can move on at least with the mechanical consequences. So I beg to gently disagree with a couple things you said. I'm stumbling over the "It would be best for all of us to wait for Arion to tell us what to do." Stating the obvious, Arion is not the manufacturer, each builder/owner has that responsiblity. Arion only supplies raw materials that can be made into a flying machine. Further, it does not appear that the accident was caused by any airframe problems. So I dont see that Arion has any need to respond. It is another story with the Jabiru engine and perhaps the prop manufacturer. Clearly something happened. As I noted previously and so do you, we will have to wait for that report. No problem. And I understand it will probably be a BIG SECRET until then. It is also a sensitive legal issue, so that may come into play. Meantime, I think anyone who is flying a Lighting should give some thought to the possible failure of the prop extension bolts and or extension. I think it is totally reasonable to offer possible causes and possible preventions. If there are things that can be done, we should do them. It may save a life if we all play detective and check things out. For example, if the failed prop was installed by using an electronic torque tester, perhaps that is significant...or it would be significant if it wasn't. I remember thinking that where the extension meets the crankshaft it must be clean so that it will all mate up correctly. We have observed that it is hard to get the bolts out even if you heat them. We also wonder what effects heating them have on the bolts. Could there be a problem with bolt length? Could there be a problem with the threadlock? Do you need threadlock if you are using safety wire? I think we should discuss all this, conjection or not. I also have a high degree of skepticism when people want to "wait for the government to do it". I live 5 miles from the main Social Security headquarters and in a welfare state. I find my faith in the Government to be challenged almost daily. While there are certainly talented people on the NTSB, they may have other interests leaning on them. The crash of Steve Whitman and his wife being an example. In the meantime, I think it is prudent to assume your prop could fly off your plane during some flight operations. Makes sense to me to have a plan for if that happens. I understand there is a time and place for truth to be told. I would just hope that real truth would not be withheld because someone might be offended. I would be very upset and pissed if withholding truth got somebody hurt. Just my opinion. Doug Koenigsberg **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:01 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time Jim, I'll read over your email and think about if I have anything to add late r. I am glad to see that you have a plan. Remember, those first few hours you are putting yourself in the test pilot seat whether you are one or not . I don't say that to scare anybody off. In flight testing you move slowl y from what is known to what is unknown. Makes sense huh? I would definat ely spend some time in the Katana. The Lightning is faster, but I was actu ally pleasently surprised to find such good characteristics in the Lightnin g. I hold the Diamond company as being a great aircraft company who went f rom experimentals to normally certified and even jets! Like some of us hav e said before, pull the power to idle at altitude and practice turn rates l ike you were turning back to the airport. Vary airspeeds and bank rates. See what works good and gives you a good trade off for quick turn, margin o n airspeed, and loss of altitude. Give yourself an artificial ground level at say 3k feet and try to end up with some altitude to spare once you get 180 degrees. Do the same thing for 90 degrees, etc. Remember, if anything did happen it's always better to fly into the ground under control than to fly into anything out of control. One of the guys from Shelbyville that I had met put a Viking down in the top of trees at night. Now he ran out of gas so that was dumb, but he maintained control and put it down in the top s of trees, at night, in the mountains. He walked away (climbed down) with out a scratch. I know it's been said a lot, but it is important. Brian W. list@matronics.comSubject: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the fi rst time Short of a few odds and ends like putting my tail number on and doing a wei ght and balance, I am FINISHED WITH MY LIGHTNING!!! (happy days, huh?) Anyway, I have been spending some time talking with Ryan and Buz about the next steps after the airworthyness inspection, and before I actually strap myself into the seat and take off. This is the way I am approaching things, your comments are welcome: In preparation for flying my aircraft, I tried to find something that I cou ld rent that was close in type, i.e. stick, low wing, nose wheel, etc. it is however, hard to be flying when you are spending time and money building , but I have logged some hours. I called Falcon and secured insurance on my Lightning with Ryan included. Ryan will be flying the first 5+ hours, and we will work together to make s ure everything is working as it should and nothing is going to "fall off". Per suggestion, I am looking for something like a Katana to rent and fly, a s from what I have heard, it is pretty close to the Lightning in feel. Rig ht now I am flying a Evektor SportStar only because it is the only small lo w wing with a stick that I can find to rent. Establish a defined test plan for multi-phase testing per FAA Advisory Circ ular 90-89 and contingency plan for emergencies. I have been working off o f a graciously supplied example for this. I think after I have a few hours in my aircraft, I will be taking it home r ight away. Lancaster, (KLNS) has two nice long and wide runways and lots o f room to fly, so I can practice different types of takeoffs and landings, and my area has a fair number of airports close, so I can "ring er out" and still be within gliding distance of a good place to land. This will help to break in the engine and build time on the aircraft. Doing mostly landin gs and takeoffs is a little tougher on the engine during the break-in perio d. While I am flying and recording results, use this information to develop an aircraft manual with weight & balance, limitations, performance data, etc =85 The cool thing about the MGL Odyssey that I put in the panel is that it can act like a "black box" flight recorder and write this data to a SDRam card while in flight. I can then go back and use this information to learn mor e about my flight performance and characteristics; neat! Once I have flown off the hours and am totally comfortable with the aircraf t, I can finally take my daughter up for a ride. (She's been bugging me fr om day one). _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join yo u on Windows Live=99 Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:19 PM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time Thanks for the advice Brian. You're right, slow is a good thing sometimes. On 6/6/08, Brian Whittingham wrote: > > Jim, > I'll read over your email and think about if I have anything to add > later. I am glad to see that you have a plan. Remember, those first few > hours you are putting yourself in the test pilot seat whether you are one or > not. I don't say that to scare anybody off. In flight testing you move > slowly from what is known to what is unknown. Makes sense huh? I would > definately spend some time in the Katana. The Lightning is faster, but I > was actually pleasently surprised to find such good characteristics in th e > Lightning. I hold the Diamond company as being a great aircraft company who > went from experimentals to normally certified and even jets! Like some o f > us have said before, pull the power to idle at altitude and practice turn > rates like you were turning back to the airport. Vary airspeeds and bank > rates. See what works good and gives you a good trade off for quick turn , > margin on airspeed, and loss of altitude. Give yourself an artificial > ground level at say 3k feet and try to end up with some altitude to spare > once you get 180 degrees. Do the same thing for 90 degrees, etc. Rememb er, > if anything did happen it's always better to fly into the ground under > control than to fly into anything out of control. One of the guys from > Shelbyville that I had met put a Viking down in the top of trees at night .. > Now he ran out of gas so that was dumb, but he maintained control and put it > down in the tops of trees, at night, in the mountains. He walked away > (climbed down) without a scratch. I know it's been said a lot, but it is > important. Brian W. > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:29:51 -0400 > From: pequeajim@gmail.com > To: lightning-list@matronics.com > Subject: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time > > Short of a few odds and ends like putting my tail number on and doing a > weight and balance, I am FINISHED WITH MY LIGHTNING!!! > > > (happy days, huh?) > > > Anyway, I have been spending some time talking with Ryan and Buz about th e > next steps after the airworthyness inspection, and before I actually stra p > myself into the seat and take off. > > > This is the way I am approaching things, your comments are welcome: > > > 1. In preparation for flying my aircraft, I tried to find something > that I could rent that was close in type, i.e. stick, low wing, nose w heel, > etc. it is however, hard to be flying when you are spending time and > money building, but I have logged some hours. > 2. I called Falcon and secured insurance on my Lightning with Ryan > included. > 3. Ryan will be flying the first 5+ hours, and we will work together t o > make sure everything is working as it should and nothing is going to " fall > off". > 4. Per suggestion, I am looking for something like a Katana to rent an d > fly, as from what I have heard, it is pretty close to the Lightning in feel. > Right now I am flying a Evektor SportStar only because it is the only > small low wing with a stick that I can find to rent. > 5. Establish a defined test plan for multi-phase testing per FAA > Advisory Circular 90-89 and contingency plan for emergencies. I have > been working off of a graciously supplied example for this. > 6. I think after I have a few hours in my aircraft, I will be taking i t > home right away. Lancaster, (KLNS) has two nice long and wide runways > and lots of room to fly, so I can practice different types of takeoffs and > landings, and my area has a fair number of airports close, so I can "r ing er > out" and still be within gliding distance of a good place to land. Th is > will help to break in the engine and build time on the aircraft. Doin g > mostly landings and takeoffs is a little tougher on the engine during the > break-in period. > 7. While I am flying and recording results, use this information to > develop an aircraft manual with weight & balance, limitations, perform ance > data, etc=85 > > > The cool thing about the MGL Odyssey that I put in the panel is that it c an > act like a "black box" flight recorder and write this data to a SDRam car d > while in flight. I can then go back and use this information to learn > more about my flight performance and characteristics; neat! > > > Once I have flown off the hours and am totally comfortable with the > aircraft, I can finally take my daughter up for a ride. (She's been > bugging me from day one). > > * > > " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > p://forums.matronics.com > blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > * > > > ------------------------------ > Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join > you on Windows Live=99 Messenger. Invite friends now! > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:09 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash Johnny, I wondered how you guys out west were doing. I know Greg and his wife and that they will welcome you into their family from day one. Good people and I'm sure hard on them. I appreciate your candid response and telling a very personal story that happened to you. Maybe one of these days I'll get a chance to meet you in person an d hear some good flying stories that I'm sure that you have. Pilots tend to be a problem solving bunch and want to react quicker rather than later. I think this is one of those times like when you've got a landing gear that won't come down. No need to rush the trouble shooting , best to remain in a holding pattern for a while and trouble shoot when th e time is appropriate. There is something to be learned by every accident, incident, and the most often: personal almost uh ohs. I have been around FAA and NTSB investigations before and they are a good bunch. They'll find out what happened and make any recommendations that they think are needed. Until that time any speculation is just that. To everybody who has a current project I would like to encourage you to go on a flight when you're mentally prepared and focus on the basics of altitu de, airspeed, checklist usage. It keeps your mind focused, even in a time like this and reminds you of the common thread that we share. Keep on work ing on the projects. I would say to be safe, pay attention to checklists a nd form, but not because of recent events, but b/c that will make you a bet ter and safer pilot which is good for everybody. Brian W. From: 14az@mysprocketmail.comTo: lightning-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: L ightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft CrashDate: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:48:10 -0700 I understand everyone wanting to know everything about the crash, why and h ow. That answer will most likely take months. Normally NTSB would not inv estigate the accident since it is an experimental aircraft. However, they are. This is good for us, as they will inspect and test each possible area and when completed report. The preliminary copy is below. http://www.ntsb .gov/ntsb/query.asp Please note that as with all first reports, much of th e information can be wrong. Initial information is often from non-aviation observers. As for what went wrong Lightning or other manufacturers would be involved in aiding the investigation if requested and they volunteered to do so. If they aid in the investigation they will not be allowed to discuss anything to anyone other then the investigating team. Until the investigat ion is closed, only NTSB can release information. If they find a major prob lem that effects safety of flight of all similar equipment, normally, a not ice could proceed a completed report. Please don't guess. For all those that knew Jerry, flew and worked along s ide of him and were with him before and after the crash, your guess and tho ughts on what happened and what he did after the prop left the aircraft is tearing us apart. It will come out in the report. I will say this, when wo ndering why he as a pilot did or did not react, WE DO NOT KNOW. In combat m y aircraft was hit and the explosion blew off the front of the aircraft. Th e aircraft could still fly. However, it started falling out of control. My copilot/gunner took over and saved us because on my lack of ability to rea ct and fly. My excuse was I had a bullet logged in my spine and could not r eact. During any incident when things come off or break they do collateral damage. I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS HAPPENED TO JERRY. Please back off and save t he "what ifs" till we know all the facts. As for checking the torque on the flange to crankshaft, DO IT BY THE BOOK O NLY. If you followed the Jabiru manual, when assembling the aircraft you sh ould be ok. If you check the torque, then go by the book. I have an electr onic torque tester that must be used for this operation. If you move the bo lt, and you will, you must remove and reinstall per the Jabriu instruction since you just destroyed the sealant. Use only the prescribed sealant but c heck for new any sealants recommended. It would be best for all of us to wait for Arion to tell us what to do. Ok to question ourselves, but please stop there. Some of us are very sensitive due to loosing a good friend. Johnny Thompson NTSB Identification: SEA08LA14914 CFR Part 91: General AviationAccident occ urred Sunday, June 01, 2008 in Marana, AZAircraft: Van Heeswyk Lightning, r egistration: N62JVInjuries: 1 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.On June 1, 2008 about 0816 mountain standard time, an amateur bu ilt Van Heeswyk Lightning airplane, N62JV, registered to and operated by th e pilot, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain while maneuveri ng near Marana, Arizona. The private pilot, who was the sole occupant of th e airplane, was killed. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no f light plan was filed for the personal local flight that was operated under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The f light departed from Ryan Field Airport, Tucson, Arizona, about 0559.Witness es located adjacent to the accident site reported observing the propeller a ssembly separate from the airplane as it flew over their position. One witn ess stated that after the propeller separated, the airplane pitched upwards and subsequently descended into terrain. Another witness reported hearing the "engine rev up" just prior to the airplane impacting the ground. Examin ation of the airplane by a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector revealed that the airplane came to rest in an upright position within an op en field. The fuselage was partially separated aft of the cabin. All primar y flight controls were located within the accident site. The propeller asse mbly and propeller flange extension were found separated from the engine an d were located about .62 miles southwest of the accident site. The wreckage was recovered to a secure location for further examination ----- Original Message ----- From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:57 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash In a message dated 6/6/2008 10:31:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhausch@ch arter.net writes: Respectfully, when might we get some add'l news on this unfortunate accide nt? I'm sympathetic about your interest, but it prompts my problem-solving incl ination. In my opinion the accident breaks down into two parts. 1) The prop went away in flight but was recovered whole. that means the pr op flange to engine components failed for some reason.....metal fatigue, ba d bolts, or loose bolts. I am betting on loose or bad bolts....since no o ther Jabs have lost the prop. Even when Nick hit the turkey vulture in fli ght with the prop, splintering it into toothpicks, the flange was fine and is still flying. We will likely get some definitive statement in the coming months, but it is safe to say that checking the prop to engine attachment by wiggling t he prop is a must before flights, in my opinion. I am suggesting a careful wiggle in the 12 oclock and also in the 9 oclock position. It shouldn't w iggle at all, but be sure it is not the engine mounts. Might not be a bad idea to check the torque on the flange bolts soon. I dont expect much more on that subject until the metallurgical data co mes in. 2) The second issue is the piloting after the prop went away. It think is a reasonable conclusion that there was some loss of control with a resultin g impact. Whatever the details, I think the lesson to all of us is to pra ctice emergency procedures and to always have a plan to land when flying be low 2,000 feet agl. I observe that the Lightning is a "step-up" airplane for a good portion of the builders and requires more attention than their previous birds. Things happen faster. People want responsive controls, but that responsiveness means you get into trouble much faster, particularly if destracted. I see panels getting cluttered with lots of information-giving instruments. Pe rhaps the first emergency procedure if you are less than 2,000 feet agl sh ould be to shut off the Master Switch!!!! That would focus attention on f lying and landing rather than the panel! Of course it would also mean you should wire your flaps (and boost pump) directly to the battery, since not using flaps on landing has also contributed to accidents. My real point is that having sound emergency procedures that focus on flyin g the plane is important and must be practiced. On my first flight in a Li ghtning, to get the feel of the plane, I did a simulated approach and takeo ff at a paved runway and had the engine quit at about 500 feet just after I passed the end of the runway. While thinking about wether to land in the trees or the Potomac River, " I hit the boost pump and changed tanks. I h ad practiced that response previously, so it was automatic. Thankfully the engine started running normally again and I went to my home field and land ed. My practicing paid off. The actions of our departed colleague may be discussed at length as more is known; however, the admonition will be the same. 1) Fly the plane first . 2)practice flying the plane first 3)plan to land when the engine quits 4) dont make turns if possible. I suppose I am a bit of an idealist, but I think we honor the memory of a person by using their life as a lesson and admonition. My suggestion is that we adjust our flying behaviors and train ourselves to handle similar e mergencies as an offering of honor.... that is something we can do right no w. I have a feeling that more details about the pilots actions will not change the conclusions we might make. Doug Koenigsberg Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=s rchpaysyouback ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:43 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time Jim and Hugh, I remember during my Embry-Riddle Aero Univ days that we had a form for solo flights. At the time I thought it was stupid. Here I was an instrume nt rated multi-engine commercial pilot and I had to have this signed card t o fly solo? Anyhow it was basically an assessment where they would look ov er how many takeoffs and landings that you had done in the past month in ty pe. They would also vary the crosswind component limit based on number of landings and particularly the number of xwind landings. Now that I've had a few years since I've been away I see the logic in this. They couldn't tr ust us to have enough time under our belts to know to self check ourself. I have done about 17 knot direct crosswind. I haven't flown in about 2 mon ths and actually need a new medical at this point, but I wouldn't fly by my self. I've got 70ish hour or so in Lightnings and when I went back to SYI about a month ago I had hoped to fly one. Weather was bad so I didn't, but I wouldn't have done it alone, I would've had Nick with me b/c even though I was fairly current in flying, I wasn't in type anymore. I can remember days of flying in some pretty rough and gusty crosswinds when I had a lot o f RECENT time in type and recent crosswind times. Other times I said no wh en it was a light crosswind b/c although I was quiet current in type and ha d plenty of recent landings they had been calm days or blowing right down t he runway. 15 I believe is what Nick gives as a limit for the Lightning. It's a good number, fudge factor built in. Now that doesn't include person al limits which vary from week to week or even day to day. The Lightning i s much better with the rudder than the Esqual was. I'd agree with Earl's a ssessment on the landings too. One thing that I have never had a problem w ith though was skidding or wheel hopping in the Lightning. The Esquals tho ugh would seem to run out of rudder and at the lightweight that I flew with could be at 15 knots, full rudder and wheel hopping. Just my own observati on. I've seen Buz land his Esqual though at probably 17 knots xwind or mor e though and he didn't do that. I don't know if it was extra weight or the extra couple hundred (read thousands) of hours that he had. If you have f lown an Esqual and then a Lightning though I'd think that you'd agree that the Lightning had better rudder feel and authority. Again, the DA-20 would be a good approximation of rudder authority. I find it funny that we all try to compare and contrast against a Cessna. Guess most of us were traine d and have a lot of time in them, but a Cessna is the most stable airplane and easiest to land (nose dragger versions, the newer the easier) of any ai rplane ever built. There's also a form to fill out for personal stress lev els that can help you assess if you should fly. It's kind of corny, but ya know it just gets you to think about things and realize, oh I am more stre ssed than what I thought. Ultimately I think the examples listed above don 't have to be a checklist so much as a mental note. Think about it and ass ess it. I made checklists of my own until Buz came along and made some nic e ones for the Lightning. I combined some of my own in with his for my own use. Some things I have a harder time of remembering than others so for s pecific "memory item" emergencies I wrote them down and read them, went ove r it in my mind and then practiced a lot. Buz had a couple of good things for emergencies or abnormal procedures that I had not ever come across and those are the great kinds of things to add to your books as you go. Young or old, never quit learning, consider that you may learn from somebody that is even less experienced than you, ere on the side of caution, and be vigi lent and you'll do fine in the Lightning or any other aircraft that you fly . list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for th e first timeThanks for the advice Brian. You're right, slow is a good thin g sometimes. On 6/6/08, Brian Whittingham wrote: Jim, I'll read over your email and think about if I have anything to add later. I am glad to see that you have a plan. Remember, those first few h ours you are putting yourself in the test pilot seat whether you are one or not. I don't say that to scare anybody off. In flight testing you move s lowly from what is known to what is unknown. Makes sense huh? I would def inately spend some time in the Katana. The Lightning is faster, but I was actually pleasently surprised to find such good characteristics in the Ligh tning. I hold the Diamond company as being a great aircraft company who we nt from experimentals to normally certified and even jets! Like some of us have said before, pull the power to idle at altitude and practice turn rat es like you were turning back to the airport. Vary airspeeds and bank rate s. See what works good and gives you a good trade off for quick turn, marg in on airspeed, and loss of altitude. Give yourself an artificial ground l evel at say 3k feet and try to end up with some altitude to spare once you get 180 degrees. Do the same thing for 90 degrees, etc. Remember, if anyt hing did happen it's always better to fly into the ground under control tha n to fly into anything out of control. One of the guys from Shelbyville th at I had met put a Viking down in the top of trees at night. Now he ran ou t of gas so that was dumb, but he maintained control and put it down in the tops of trees, at night, in the mountains. He walked away (climbed down) without a scratch. I know it's been said a lot, but it is important. Bria n W. list@matronics.comSubject: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the fi rst time Short of a few odds and ends like putting my tail number on and doing a wei ght and balance, I am FINISHED WITH MY LIGHTNING!!! (happy days, huh?) Anyway, I have been spending some time talking with Ryan and Buz about the next steps after the airworthyness inspection, and before I actually strap myself into the seat and take off. This is the way I am approaching things, your comments are welcome: In preparation for flying my aircraft, I tried to find something that I cou ld rent that was close in type, i.e. stick, low wing, nose wheel, etc. it is however, hard to be flying when you are spending time and money building , but I have logged some hours. I called Falcon and secured insurance on my Lightning with Ryan included. Ryan will be flying the first 5+ hours, and we will work together to make s ure everything is working as it should and nothing is going to "fall off". Per suggestion, I am looking for something like a Katana to rent and fly, a s from what I have heard, it is pretty close to the Lightning in feel. Rig ht now I am flying a Evektor SportStar only because it is the only small lo w wing with a stick that I can find to rent. Establish a defined test plan for multi-phase testing per FAA Advisory Circ ular 90-89 and contingency plan for emergencies. I have been working off o f a graciously supplied example for this. I think after I have a few hours in my aircraft, I will be taking it home r ight away. Lancaster, (KLNS) has two nice long and wide runways and lots o f room to fly, so I can practice different types of takeoffs and landings, and my area has a fair number of airports close, so I can "ring er out" and still be within gliding distance of a good place to land. This will help to break in the engine and build time on the aircraft. Doing mostly landin gs and takeoffs is a little tougher on the engine during the break-in perio d. While I am flying and recording results, use this information to develop an aircraft manual with weight & balance, limitations, performance data, etc =85 The cool thing about the MGL Odyssey that I put in the panel is that it can act like a "black box" flight recorder and write this data to a SDRam card while in flight. I can then go back and use this information to learn mor e about my flight performance and characteristics; neat! Once I have flown off the hours and am totally comfortable with the aircraf t, I can finally take my daughter up for a ride. (She's been bugging me fr om day one). " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join yo u on Windows Live=99 Messenger. Invite friends now! href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List" target="_blank ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matro nics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www .matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________________________ Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Wi ndows Live=99 Messenger. Add now. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:03 PM PST US From: "GARY PENNINGTON" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash Doug I just read your response to the Arizona accident. I am very impressed with your writing abilities and even more so with your advice. It is extremely valid. Thank you. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Kayberg@AOL.COM To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:57 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash In a message dated 6/6/2008 10:31:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jhausch@charter.net writes: Respectfully, when might we get some add'l news on this unfortunate accident? I'm sympathetic about your interest, but it prompts my problem-solving inclination. In my opinion the accident breaks down into two parts. 1) The prop went away in flight but was recovered whole. that means the prop flange to engine components failed for some reason.....metal fatigue, bad bolts, or loose bolts. I am betting on loose or bad bolts....since no other Jabs have lost the prop. Even when Nick hit the turkey vulture in flight with the prop, splintering it into toothpicks, the flange was fine and is still flying. We will likely get some definitive statement in the coming months, but it is safe to say that checking the prop to engine attachment by wiggling the prop is a must before flights, in my opinion. I am suggesting a careful wiggle in the 12 oclock and also in the 9 oclock position. It shouldn't wiggle at all, but be sure it is not the engine mounts. Might not be a bad idea to check the torque on the flange bolts soon. I dont expect much more on that subject until the metallurgical data comes in. 2) The second issue is the piloting after the prop went away. It think is a reasonable conclusion that there was some loss of control with a resulting impact. Whatever the details, I think the lesson to all of us is to practice emergency procedures and to always have a plan to land when flying below 2,000 feet agl. I observe that the Lightning is a "step-up" airplane for a good portion of the builders and requires more attention than their previous birds. Things happen faster. People want responsive controls, but that responsiveness means you get into trouble much faster, particularly if destracted. I see panels getting cluttered with lots of information-giving instruments. Perhaps the first emergency procedure if you are less than 2,000 feet agl should be to shut off the Master Switch!!!! That would focus attention on flying and landing rather than the panel! Of course it would also mean you should wire your flaps (and boost pump) directly to the battery, since not using flaps on landing has also contributed to accidents. My real point is that having sound emergency procedures that focus on flying the plane is important and must be practiced. On my first flight in a Lightning, to get the feel of the plane, I did a simulated approach and takeoff at a paved runway and had the engine quit at about 500 feet just after I passed the end of the runway. While thinking about wether to land in the trees or the Potomac River, " I hit the boost pump and changed tanks. I had practiced that response previously, so it was automatic. Thankfully the engine started running normally again and I went to my home field and landed. My practicing paid off. The actions of our departed colleague may be discussed at length as more is known; however, the admonition will be the same. 1) Fly the plane first .2)practice flying the plane first 3)plan to land when the engine quits 4) dont make turns if possible. I suppose I am a bit of an idealist, but I think we honor the memory of a person by using their life as a lesson and admonition. My suggestion is that we adjust our flying behaviors and train ourselves to handle similar emergencies as an offering of honor.... that is something we can do right now. I have a feeling that more details about the pilots actions will not change the conclusions we might make. Doug Koenigsberg ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:12 PM PST US From: "Johnny Thompson" <14az@mysprocketmail.com> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash Thanks Doug, good points I agree with you. I am and will continue to inspect my aircraft while thinking of this accident. I know everyone is being considerate and not talking about what Jerry did or did not do after the prop left. That is the only thing I was really concerned about. This was a terrible accident and has been hard on all of us, especially Greg and Crystal Hobbs. I know some of what happened, I was at the crash site Sunday and at Greg's with other owners when he found the prop on Monday. The flange came off at the crank, now it is up to the NTSB to use all it's resources to find the reason for that and report on it ASAP. I am sure the manufacture is on top of it also. In the mean time I am doing my own inspection of my aircraft. I have removed my flange, inspected and made a decision as to what I will do. My aircraft had a problem from a prop strike so what I found might be related to the strike. I am replacing the flange and bolts and installing per Jabriu instructions. I have talked to several builders this week about the sealant they used. I was surprised that some had used the "Red" and not the Green 620 called for in the manual.The green is for loose threads (gaps) and high temp, which is what we have at the flange to crank. As Doug said, It is very difficult to remove the bolts with 620 and I think Nick has a replacement. I know the sealant is very important and must not be left off. I also safety wire the bolts. I would like to use aviation close tolerance bolts with a grip on the flange but do not know if that is necessary yet. Too many unknowns. The electronic torque tester is use to measure the torque at removal for NDI (non destructive inspection). Once tested the bolts must be removed and flange reinstalled per Jabiru instructions NTSB does not always investigate field crash sites. A Phoenix experimental with 2 deaths last year was passed to the FAA. We should talk about how we would react to any emergency and what to do to make sure our aircraft are safe. All crashes become training lessons. I will share what I am doing to my aircraft but please remember it will be my opinion and best judgment. I have found three items with the flange and mounting I would like to improve on but still do not know if it is necessary. The NTSB report will help and will be critical in making any decisions. I do not know anything about Australian aviation hardware provided on the engine. I must learn. I always prefer to use aviation bolts whenever possible and will be trying to find some with a grip to match the flange but it might have to be a special order and cost prohibited. Also, as of now with all the 3300 engines flying I have not heard of a problem with the hardware or the installation procedures? Has this ever happened before? I do not want to fix something that is not broke but do like to make things better and safer when possible. Without knowledge of standards used I might be lowering them with different bolts. Brian, very good advice also. Thanks everyone, Johnny ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:02 PM PST US From: "Peter and Jan Disher" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash Yes, I to say thanks to Doug and Johnny for there very good points, If I may pickup on one of Dougs points of bolt length. I to took off my flange and found that there was only 0.310" on bolt protruding past the flange and into the crankshaft. Can I ask? Is this enough for a 3/8 " dia. bolt? If my memory serves me right I though there was some rule for penetration of a bolt of 1 & 1/2 times the diameter of the bolt. I did replace mine with 1" bolts. It is only my option, it just didn't look like enough bolt to me, I just had to say something. Peter Disher ----- Original Message ----- From: Johnny Thompson To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 12:31 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Fatal Lightning Aircraft Crash Thanks Doug, good points I agree with you. I am and will continue to inspect my aircraft while thinking of this accident. I know everyone is being considerate and not talking about what Jerry did or did not do after the prop left. That is the only thing I was really concerned about. This was a terrible accident and has been hard on all of us, especially Greg and Crystal Hobbs. I know some of what happened, I was at the crash site Sunday and at Greg's with other owners when he found the prop on Monday. The flange came off at the crank, now it is up to the NTSB to use all it's resources to find the reason for that and report on it ASAP. I am sure the manufacture is on top of it also. In the mean time I am doing my own inspection of my aircraft. I have removed my flange, inspected and made a decision as to what I will do. My aircraft had a problem from a prop strike so what I found might be related to the strike. I am replacing the flange and bolts and installing per Jabriu instructions. I have talked to several builders this week about the sealant they used. I was surprised that some had used the "Red" and not the Green 620 called for in the manual.The green is for loose threads (gaps) and high temp, which is what we have at the flange to crank. As Doug said, It is very difficult to remove the bolts with 620 and I think Nick has a replacement. I know the sealant is very important and must not be left off. I also safety wire the bolts. I would like to use aviation close tolerance bolts with a grip on the flange but do not know if that is necessary yet. Too many unknowns. The electronic torque tester is use to measure the torque at removal for NDI (non destructive inspection). Once tested the bolts must be removed and flange reinstalled per Jabiru instructions NTSB does not always investigate field crash sites. A Phoenix experimental with 2 deaths last year was passed to the FAA. We should talk about how we would react to any emergency and what to do to make sure our aircraft are safe. All crashes become training lessons. I will share what I am doing to my aircraft but please remember it will be my opinion and best judgment. I have found three items with the flange and mounting I would like to improve on but still do not know if it is necessary. The NTSB report will help and will be critical in making any decisions. I do not know anything about Australian aviation hardware provided on the engine. I must learn. I always prefer to use aviation bolts whenever possible and will be trying to find some with a grip to match the flange but it might have to be a special order and cost prohibited. Also, as of now with all the 3300 engines flying I have not heard of a problem with the hardware or the installation procedures? Has this ever happened before? I do not want to fix something that is not broke but do like to make things better and safer when possible. Without knowledge of standards used I might be lowering them with different bolts. Brian, very good advice also. Thanks everyone, Johnny ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 6/6/2008 5:48 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.