Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:42 AM - ENGINE INSTALL page 33-2 (Tex Mantell)
2. 12:57 PM - Thoughts on new wingtips? (Brian Whittingham)
3. 01:44 PM - Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (saniewskig)
4. 01:59 PM - Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (GARY PENNINGTON)
5. 03:36 PM - Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (Wayne Lenox)
6. 03:48 PM - Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (Sales Email Account)
7. 06:03 PM - Re: Flying your Lightning for the first time (Hugh Sontag)
8. 06:21 PM - Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (selwyn)
9. 06:44 PM - Re: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (Rick Bowen)
10. 06:47 PM - Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (GARY PENNINGTON)
11. 07:23 PM - Re: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (Colin J. Kennedy)
12. 08:20 PM - Re: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (Jim Langley)
13. 08:36 PM - Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? (selwyn)
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| Subject: | ENGINE INSTALL page 33-2 |
The manual on page 33-2 states to be sure to install the 2" prop
extension before installing the cowlings. This might be a good place to
include the proper methods and the Locktight # for this procedure. Tex
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| Subject: | Thoughts on new wingtips? |
To all, I want to know what you all think about the new wingtip extensio
ns. Do you like the look of the increased wingspan? Do you like the wingt
ips and how they flare out at the end? Anybody planning on ordering a set?
I want to hear from both sport pilot and non-sport pilot builders alike.
I'd like to kind of get a tally of which group wants them more. It's some
thing that will really allow the sport pilots to maximize their aircraft wh
ile at the same time, I believe it will allow for non sport pilots to add l
ooks and climb performance, and probably a slight decrease in fuel consumpt
ion at cruise. Brian W.
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
I think they look great, I am looking to build a Light Sport and the
Lightning looks to be the ticket. I hope to test fly the aircraft soon.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Whittingham
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:54 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Thoughts on new wingtips?
To all, I want to know what you all think about the new wingtip
extensions. Do you like the look of the increased wingspan? Do you
like the wingtips and how they flare out at the end? Anybody planning
on ordering a set? I want to hear from both sport pilot and non-sport
pilot builders alike. I'd like to kind of get a tally of which group
wants them more. It's something that will really allow the sport pilots
to maximize their aircraft while at the same time, I believe it will
allow for non sport pilots to add looks and climb performance, and
probably a slight decrease in fuel consumption at cruise. Brian W.
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
Hello Brian
I like the appearance of the new wing tips. I think they look much more
sporty. I understand Nick is flight testing them.
Preliminary reports suggest they reduce take off roll, increase climb
rate, reduce stall speed and do not reduce cruise speed. I would be
interested in their performance during accelerated stalls, but so far,
everything seems very positive. How can you lose?
If final testing verifies the above, I will use them on my new
Lightning.
Happy flying.
Gary Pennington
---- Original Message -----
From: Brian Whittingham<mailto:dashvii@hotmail.com>
To: lightning-list@matronics.com<mailto:lightning-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Thoughts on new wingtips?
To all, I want to know what you all think about the new wingtip
extensions. Do you like the look of the increased wingspan? Do you
like the wingtips and how they flare out at the end? Anybody planning
on ordering a set? I want to hear from both sport pilot and non-sport
pilot builders alike. I'd like to kind of get a tally of which group
wants them more. It's something that will really allow the sport pilots
to maximize their aircraft while at the same time, I believe it will
allow for non sport pilots to add looks and climb performance, and
probably a slight decrease in fuel consumption at cruise. Brian W.
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
Brian
My Lightning is in build and has the new tips. I like the look and hope
the preformance. Nick has flown the test bed Lightning and did report
on its preformance. I live out west and will fly above 9000ft much of t
he time, the tips should help.
Wayne
-- Brian Whittingham <dashvii@hotmail.com> wrote:
To all, I want to know what you all think about the new wingtip exten
sions. Do you like the look of the increased wingspan? Do you like the
wingtips and how they flare out at the end? Anybody planning on orderi
ng a set? I want to hear from both sport pilot and non-sport pilot buil
ders alike. I'd like to kind of get a tally of which group wants them m
ore. It's something that will really allow the sport pilots to maximize
their aircraft while at the same time, I believe it will allow for non
sport pilots to add looks and climb performance, and probably a slight d
ecrease in fuel consumption at cruise. Brian W.
Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
Hi Wayne,
I have decided to install the new wing tips as well and am on the "list"
to get them. I'm curious as to how you came about getting a set at this
time when they don't appear to be available generally as yet. Do you
have any info that you can share with the group? Bill Applegate, kit
#49 in Tucson, Az.
Wayne Lenox wrote:
> Brian
> My Lightning is in build and has the new tips. I like the look and
> hope the preformance. Nick has flown the test bed Lightning and did
> report on its preformance. I live out west and will fly above 9000ft
> much of the time, the tips should help.
>
> Wayne
>
> -- Brian Whittingham <dashvii@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>To all,
>
> I want to know what you all think about the new wingtip extensions. Do you
like the look of the increased wingspan? Do you like the wingtips and how they
flare out at the end? Anybody planning on ordering a set? I want to hear
from both sport pilot and non-sport pilot builders alike. I'd like to kind of
get a tally of which group wants them more. It's something that will really
allow the sport pilots to maximize their aircraft while at the same time, I believe
it will allow for non sport pilots to add looks and climb performance,
and probably a slight decrease in fuel consumption at cruise. Brian W.
>
>
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| Subject: | Flying your Lightning for the first time |
Thanks for your comments, Brian.
Hugh
>Jim and Hugh,
> I remember during my Embry-Riddle Aero Univ
>days that we had a form for solo flights. At
>the time I thought it was stupid. Here I was an
>instrument rated multi-engine commercial pilot
>and I had to have this signed card to fly solo?
>Anyhow it was basically an assessment where they
>would look over how many takeoffs and landings
>that you had done in the past month in type.
>They would also vary the crosswind component
>limit based on number of landings and
>particularly the number of xwind landings. Now
>that I've had a few years since I've been away I
>see the logic in this. They couldn't trust us
>to have enough time under our belts to know to
>self check ourself. I have done about 17 knot
>direct crosswind. I haven't flown in about 2
>months and actually need a new medical at this
>point, but I wouldn't fly by myself. I've got
>70ish hour or so in Lightnings and when I went
>back to SYI about a month ago I had hoped to fly
>one. Weather was bad so I didn't, but I
>wouldn't have done it alone, I would've had Nick
>with me b/c even though I was fairly current in
>flying, I wasn't in type anymore. I can
>remember days of flying in some pretty rough and
>gusty crosswinds when I had a lot of RECENT time
>in type and recent crosswind times. Other times
>I said no when it was a light crosswind b/c
>although I was quiet current in type and had
>plenty of recent landings they had been calm
>days or blowing right down the runway. 15 I
>believe is what Nick gives as a limit for the
>Lightning. It's a good number, fudge factor
>built in. Now that doesn't include personal
>limits which vary from week to week or even day
>to day. The Lightning is much better with the
>rudder than the Esqual was. I'd agree with
>Earl's assessment on the landings too. One
>thing that I have never had a problem with
>though was skidding or wheel hopping in the
>Lightning. The Esquals though would seem to run
>out of rudder and at the lightweight that I flew
>with could be at 15 knots, full rudder and wheel
>hopping. Just my own observation. I've seen Buz
>land his Esqual though at probably 17 knots
>xwind or more though and he didn't do that. I
>don't know if it was extra weight or the extra
>couple hundred (read thousands) of hours that he
>had. If you have flown an Esqual and then a
>Lightning though I'd think that you'd agree that
>the Lightning had better rudder feel and
>authority. Again, the DA-20 would be a good
>approximation of rudder authority. I find it
>funny that we all try to compare and contrast
>against a Cessna. Guess most of us were trained
>and have a lot of time in them, but a Cessna is
>the most stable airplane and easiest to land
>(nose dragger versions, the newer the easier) of
>any airplane ever built. There's also a form to
>fill out for personal stress levels that can
>help you assess if you should fly. It's kind of
>corny, but ya know it just gets you to think
>about things and realize, oh I am more stressed
>than what I thought. Ultimately I think the
>examples listed above don't have to be a
>checklist so much as a mental note. Think about
>it and assess it. I made checklists of my own
>until Buz came along and made some nice ones for
>the Lightning. I combined some of my own in
>with his for my own use. Some things I have a
>harder time of remembering than others so for
>specific "memory item" emergencies I wrote them
>down and read them, went over it in my mind and
>then practiced a lot. Buz had a couple of good
>things for emergencies or abnormal procedures
>that I had not ever come across and those are
>the great kinds of things to add to your books
>as you go. Young or old, never quit learning,
>consider that you may learn from somebody that
>is even less experienced than you, ere on the
>side of caution, and be vigilent and you'll do
>fine in the Lightning or any other aircraft that
>you fly.
>
>
>Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:28:42 -0400
>From: pequeajim@gmail.com
>To: lightning-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time
>
>Thanks for the advice Brian. You're right, slow is a good thing sometimes.
>
>On 6/6/08, Brian Whittingham
><<mailto:dashvii@hotmail.com>dashvii@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>Jim,
> I'll read over your email and think about if
>I have anything to add later. I am glad to see
>that you have a plan. Remember, those first few
>hours you are putting yourself in the test pilot
>seat whether you are one or not. I don't say
>that to scare anybody off. In flight testing
>you move slowly from what is known to what is
>unknown. Makes sense huh? I would definately
>spend some time in the Katana. The Lightning is
>faster, but I was actually pleasently surprised
>to find such good characteristics in the
>Lightning. I hold the Diamond company as being
>a great aircraft company who went from
>experimentals to normally certified and even
>jets! Like some of us have said before, pull
>the power to idle at altitude and practice turn
>rates like you were turning back to the airport.
>Vary airspeeds and bank rates. See what works
>good and gives you a good trade off for quick
>turn, margin on airspeed, and loss of altitude.
>Give yourself an artificial ground level at say
>3k feet and try to end up with some altitude to
>spare once you get 180 degrees. Do the same
>thing for 90 degrees, etc. Remember, if
>anything did happen it's always better to fly
>into the ground under control than to fly into
>anything out of control. One of the guys from
>Shelbyville that I had met put a Viking down in
>the top of trees at night. Now he ran out of
>gas so that was dumb, but he maintained control
>and put it down in the tops of trees, at night,
>in the mountains. He walked away (climbed down)
>without a scratch. I know it's been said a lot,
>but it is important. Brian W.
>
>
>Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:29:51 -0400
>From: <mailto:pequeajim@gmail.com>pequeajim@gmail.com
>To: <mailto:lightning-list@matronics.com>lightning-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Lightning-List: Flying your Lightning for the first time
>
>Short of a few odds and ends like putting my
>tail number on and doing a weight and balance, I
>am FINISHED WITH MY LIGHTNING!!!
>
>(happy days, huh?)
>
>Anyway, I have been spending some time talking
>with Ryan and Buz about the next steps after the
>airworthyness inspection, and before I actually
>strap myself into the seat and take off.
>
>This is the way I am approaching things, your comments are welcome:
>
>
>1. In preparation for flying my aircraft, I
>tried to find something that I could rent that
>was close in type, i.e. stick, low wing, nose
>wheel, etc. it is however, hard to be flying
>when you are spending time and money building,
>but I have logged some hours.
>2. I called Falcon and secured insurance on
>my Lightning with Ryan included.
>3. Ryan will be flying the first 5+ hours,
>and we will work together to make sure
>everything is working as it should and nothing
>is going to "fall off".
>4. Per suggestion, I am looking for
>something like a Katana to rent and fly, as from
>what I have heard, it is pretty close to the
>Lightning in feel. Right now I am flying a
>Evektor SportStar only because it is the only
>small low wing with a stick that I can find to
>rent.
>5. Establish a defined test plan for
>multi-phase testing per FAA Advisory Circular
>90-89 and contingency plan for emergencies. I
>have been working off of a graciously supplied
>example for this.
>6. I think after I have a few hours in my
>aircraft, I will be taking it home right away.
>Lancaster, (KLNS) has two nice long and wide
>runways and lots of room to fly, so I can
>practice different types of takeoffs and
>landings, and my area has a fair number of
>airports close, so I can "ring er out" and still
>be within gliding distance of a good place to
>land. This will help to break in the engine and
>build time on the aircraft. Doing mostly
>landings and takeoffs is a little tougher on the
>engine during the break-in period.
>7. While I am flying and recording results,
>use this information to develop an aircraft
>manual with weight & balance, limitations,
>performance data, etc
>
>
>The cool thing about the MGL Odyssey that I put
>in the panel is that it can act like a "black
>box" flight recorder and write this data to a
>SDRam card while in flight. I can then go back
>and use this information to learn more about my
>flight performance and characteristics; neat!
>
>Once I have flown off the hours and am totally
>comfortable with the aircraft, I can finally
>take my daughter up for a ride. (She's been
>bugging me from day one).
>
>
>"
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
pennington(at)q.com wrote:
>
> Preliminary reports suggest they reduce take off roll, increase climb rate,
reduce stall speed and do not reduce cruise speed.
>
> --
I wont be buying the tips as they are. It is a little hard to tell from the photos
but while the actual tip profile looks good, I am not so sure that the increase
in span will suit the plane so well but that is just personal preference
and would need a look at the real thing to tell.
As for performance, I am not a US sport pilot so the no flap stall speed is of
little concern to me and the flap stall and approach speeds seem OK. The Lightning
is never going to be a paddock aeroplane and mid 50kt approach speeds are
fine for tarmac or reasonable grass strips.
The flight effects are interesting though. The lower stall speed, reduced takeoff
roll and climb rates could be explained by the increase in wing area and span
but the claim of no change in cruise is counter intuitive. Increasing span
and wing area would normally lead to increased drag at cruise speeds so it may
be that the tip profile is actually doing something to airflow to lower induced
drag.
If that is the case then what I would like to see is a wingtip with the new profile
but without the increase in span. That would look better than the standard
tip and should capture any improvement in cruise performance attributed to
the tips without drawbacks of increased wing area on cruise performance. Low
speed handling would probably be little changed from the standard tip.
Cheers.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186732#186732
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
> Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips?> From: selwyn@elli
sworks.com.au> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:19:24 -0700do not reduce cruise spe
ed. Hmmm,
Hold on a minute...with an higher aspect ratio(among other things) it is po
ssible the cruise at altitude can actually INCREASE!
Does it with the new tips?
I don't know...we shall see!
Rick
N727RB> > > I won=C2=B4t be buying the tips as they are. It is a little har
d to tell from the photos but while the actual tip profile looks good, I am
not so sure that the increase in span will suit the plane so well but that
is just personal preference and would need a look at the real thing to tel
l.> > As for performance, I am not a US sport pilot so the no flap stall sp
eed is of little concern to me and the flap stall and approach speeds seem
OK. The Lightning is never going to be a paddock aeroplane and mid 50kt app
roach speeds are fine for tarmac or reasonable grass strips. > > The flight
effects are interesting though. The lower stall speed, reduced takeoff rol
l and climb rates could be explained by the increase in wing area and span
but the claim of no change in cruise is counter intuitive. Increasing span
and wing area would normally lead to increased drag at cruise speeds so it
may be that the tip profile is actually doing something to airflow to lower
induced drag.> > If that is the case then what I would like to see is a wi
ngtip with the new profile but without the increase in span. That would loo
k better than the standard tip and should capture any improvement in cruise
performance attributed to the tips without drawbacks of increased wing are
a on cruise performance. Low speed handling would probably be little change
d from the standard tip.> Cheers.> > > > > Read this topic online here:> >
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186732#186732> > > > > > > >
-========================
==> > >
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
Hello Wayne
You say you live out West? I live in Tucson, Arizona.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Lenox<mailto:waynelenox@juno.com>
To: lightning-list@matronics.com<mailto:lightning-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Thoughts on new wingtips?
Brian
My Lightning is in build and has the new tips. I like the look and
hope the preformance. Nick has flown the test bed Lightning and did
report on its preformance. I live out west and will fly above 9000ft
much of the time, the tips should help.
Wayne
-- Brian Whittingham <dashvii@hotmail.com<mailto:dashvii@hotmail.com>>
wrote:
To all, I want to know what you all think about the new wingtip
extensions. Do you like the look of the increased wingspan? Do you
like the wingtips and how they flare out at the end? Anybody planning
on ordering a set? I want to hear from both sport pilot and non-sport
pilot builders alike. I'd like to kind of get a tally of which group
wants them more. It's something that will really allow the sport pilots
to maximize their aircraft while at the same time, I believe it will
allow for non sport pilots to add looks and climb performance, and
probably a slight decrease in fuel consumption at cruise. Brian W.
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
Interesting thought Selwyn. I would guess that the tip could reduce induced
drag by reducing the wing-tip vortices.
Does the profile of the extension remain constant from the attachment end
some way out towards the tip?
If this is the case, could part of the extension be cut from the attachment
end giving a shorter overall extension while providing the same profile at
the attachment point? Nick?
Colin K.
OK
Lightning # 52 under construction.
http://www.mykitlog.com/cojaken
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of selwyn
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:19 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips?
--> <selwyn@ellisworks.com.au>
pennington(at)q.com wrote:
>
> Preliminary reports suggest they reduce take off roll, increase climb
> rate, reduce stall speed and do not reduce cruise speed.
>
> --
I wont be buying the tips as they are. It is a little hard to tell from
the photos but while the actual tip profile looks good, I am not so sure
that the increase in span will suit the plane so well but that is just
personal preference and would need a look at the real thing to tell.
As for performance, I am not a US sport pilot so the no flap stall speed is
of little concern to me and the flap stall and approach speeds seem OK. The
Lightning is never going to be a paddock aeroplane and mid 50kt approach
speeds are fine for tarmac or reasonable grass strips.
The flight effects are interesting though. The lower stall speed, reduced
takeoff roll and climb rates could be explained by the increase in wing area
and span but the claim of no change in cruise is counter intuitive.
Increasing span and wing area would normally lead to increased drag at
cruise speeds so it may be that the tip profile is actually doing something
to airflow to lower induced drag.
If that is the case then what I would like to see is a wingtip with the new
profile but without the increase in span. That would look better than the
standard tip and should capture any improvement in cruise performance
attributed to the tips without drawbacks of increased wing area on cruise
performance. Low speed handling would probably be little changed from the
standard tip.
Cheers.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186732#186732
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
Yes, but think of the thermals you could catch with the new extended wing
tips!!
(grin)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of selwyn
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 9:19 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Thoughts on new wingtips?
pennington(at)q.com wrote:
>
> Preliminary reports suggest they reduce take off roll, increase climb
rate, reduce stall speed and do not reduce cruise speed.
>
> --
I wont be buying the tips as they are. It is a little hard to tell from
the photos but while the actual tip profile looks good, I am not so sure
that the increase in span will suit the plane so well but that is just
personal preference and would need a look at the real thing to tell.
As for performance, I am not a US sport pilot so the no flap stall speed is
of little concern to me and the flap stall and approach speeds seem OK. The
Lightning is never going to be a paddock aeroplane and mid 50kt approach
speeds are fine for tarmac or reasonable grass strips.
The flight effects are interesting though. The lower stall speed, reduced
takeoff roll and climb rates could be explained by the increase in wing area
and span but the claim of no change in cruise is counter intuitive.
Increasing span and wing area would normally lead to increased drag at
cruise speeds so it may be that the tip profile is actually doing something
to airflow to lower induced drag.
If that is the case then what I would like to see is a wingtip with the new
profile but without the increase in span. That would look better than the
standard tip and should capture any improvement in cruise performance
attributed to the tips without drawbacks of increased wing area on cruise
performance. Low speed handling would probably be little changed from the
standard tip.
Cheers.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186732#186732
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Thoughts on new wingtips? |
[quote
Hmmm,
Hold on a minute...with an higher aspect ratio(among other things) it is possible
the cruise at altitude can actually INCREASE!
Does it with the new tips?
I don't know...we shall see!
Rick
N727RB
/quote
Yep, you are quite correct. I didnt want to get into a discussion of aerodynamics
with all its complexities and was thinking about low density altitudes. Where
I am, most flying is below 5000 and almost never above 8500 due to a combination
of regulation and terrain. At those levels a Lightning, with its wing
loading, will have a low angle of attack at cruise and probably wont gain much
simply from the increased area supplied by the tips.
Cheers.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186749#186749
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