Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:59 AM - Re: UK Esqual pics (N1BZRich@aol.com)
2. 05:42 AM - Re: UK Esqual pics (Jim Langley)
3. 08:58 AM - Re: UK Esqual pics (flylightning)
4. 09:04 AM - first Flight (flylightning)
5. 09:42 AM - Elevator Trim (jeynon)
6. 10:15 AM - Re: Elevator Trim (flylightning)
7. 10:56 AM - Re: first Flight (Jim Langley)
8. 10:58 AM - Re: UK Esqual pics..Jims Lightning... (Rick Bowen)
9. 12:34 PM - Re: UK Esqual pics (James, Clive R)
10. 01:23 PM - Re: UK Esqual pics (James, Clive R)
11. 04:33 PM - Re: UK Esqual pics (Colin J. Kennedy)
12. 04:50 PM - Re: Elevator Trim (EAFerguson@aol.com)
13. 05:59 PM - Re: UK Esqual pics (Jim Langley)
14. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Elevator Trim (Jim Langley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: UK Esqual pics |
Congratulations, Clive.
Great looking photos. Does the manual trim system still use the bungees?
If so, that is probably why you are having "some stability issues". The
bungees make you think you have pitch stability issues because as you slow down
the bungee pulling for up elevator becomes "more effective" as you have less
airflow over the elevator. Makes the airplane continue to want to pitch up as
you slow down. At cruise speeds you have very little need for trim because
the bungees kind of keep things "in trim" but you often need to trim opposite
to what you would expect - meaning slowing down may take down trim to
maintain level flight instead of up trim and vice versa for speeding up. Unless
the
"test pilot" understands the above he will think the airplane is neutral to
slightly unstable in pitch. So there is really just minor trim required
during cruise speeds until you lower flaps. Then you will probably need full
up
trim because of the pitch down moment as the flaps go down. My other
complaint with the bungee trim system is that you constantly have to adjust the
tension on the bungees as any temperature change results in more or less
elasticity in the bungee. Age changes the elasticity as well (the bungees age,
not
yours).
Again, congratulations on getting you airplane in the air. It looks great.
Blue Skies,
Buz
**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: UK Esqual pics |
Very nice Clive...
Can I post a couple of pictures of your airplane on my web site?
Jim!
On 6/25/08, N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Congratulations, Clive.
> Great looking photos. Does the manual trim system still use the bungees?
> If so, that is probably why you are having "some stability issues". The
> bungees make you think you have pitch stability issues because as you slow
> down the bungee pulling for up elevator becomes "more effective" as you have
> less airflow over the elevator. Makes the airplane continue to want to
> pitch up as you slow down. At cruise speeds you have very little need for
> trim because the bungees kind of keep things "in trim" but you often need to
> trim opposite to what you would expect - meaning slowing down may take down
> trim to maintain level flight instead of up trim and vice versa for speeding
> up. Unless the "test pilot" understands the above he will think the
> airplane is neutral to slightly unstable in pitch. So there is really just
> minor trim required during cruise speeds until you lower flaps. Then you
> will probably need full up trim because of the pitch down moment as the
> flaps go down. My other complaint with the bungee trim system is that you
> constantly have to adjust the tension on the bungees as any temperature
> change results in more or less elasticity in the bungee. Age changes the
> elasticity as well (the bungees age, not yours).
> Again, congratulations on getting you airplane in the air. It looks great.
> Blue Skies,
> Buz
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars<http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007>
> .
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 3
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Clive,
We have done many hours of flight testing with the esqual and lighting, with
both aircraft having either the bungee trim and the electric servo tab on
the elevator. I can tell you that if your cg is good (if you don't mind
sending your numbers) than the issue is certainly with the bungee and the
current trim. Like I said we have probably got 40-50 hours of flight testing
on this subject alone and it appears to be the bungee system. Take a look at
www.flylightning.net/Owners.htm and look at section 6 for flap and trim
motor install, note the section for the electric servo operated tab, this
will certainly make your aircraft feel and fly correctly.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James, Clive
R
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:59 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: UK Esqual pics
Well she flies, some stability issues and the trim is taking some time
to set up, I have the manual trim (no servo) and it's not simpler as I
hoped, also I have to add the tabs to the elevator as the plan is
unstable in pitch.
Aside from that the rest is good, a small list of snags but nothing that
can't be fixed. Off to the airfield with my bag of spanners.
Regards, Clive
Message 4
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To Group:
I believe a new Lightning has parted ways with the earth. Reports are in
from the great white north, with the snow gone and the water going else
where that Bill Browns piloted his ship for a while last night from H&S
aviation in WI. I hope we get a bit of a pilot report from him soon.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
Message 5
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I have recently received the new trim system for my Lightning to replace the bungee
trim, but I am confused about how to balance the elevator. Is the balance
bungee still used?
John Eynon
Lightning kit #53
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189775#189775
Message 6
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The bungee system is eliminated completely.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jeynon
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 11:40 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: Elevator Trim
I have recently received the new trim system for my Lightning to replace the
bungee trim, but I am confused about how to balance the elevator. Is the
balance bungee still used?
John Eynon
Lightning kit #53
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=189775#189775
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: first Flight |
Nice!
Congrats...
On 6/25/08, flylightning <info@flylightning.net> wrote:
>
> To Group:
>
>
> I believe a new Lightning has parted ways with the earth. Reports are in
> from the great white north, with the snow gone and the water going else
> where that Bill Browns piloted his ship for a while last night from H&S
> aviation in WI. I hope we get a bit of a pilot report from him soon=85
>
>
> Nick Otterback
>
> Arion Aircraft, LLC
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | UK Esqual pics..Jims Lightning... |
Jim and Clive...
Very nice pics of your different aircraft!
Been away for a bit, got home and saw the different post's..
Congrats Clive on your Esqual's first flight!
Jim, you REALLY have a pretty Lightning there!(I now have a pic of your pla
ne as my screen saver on my comp at work.. )
Way to go guys!
Rick
N727RB
Do not archive
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Message 9
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Sure Jim, sorry the flying pics are bit fuzzy, they were taken off a
video. The best picture I have is attached though I know she needs some
stripes.
Regards, Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Langley
Sent: 25 June 2008 13:40
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: UK Esqual pics
Very nice Clive...
Can I post a couple of pictures of your airplane on my web site?
Jim!
On 6/25/08, N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com> wrote:
Congratulations, Clive.
Great looking photos. Does the manual trim system still use the
bungees? If so, that is probably why you are having "some stability
issues". The bungees make you think you have pitch stability issues
because as you slow down the bungee pulling for up elevator becomes
"more effective" as you have less airflow over the elevator. Makes the
airplane continue to want to pitch up as you slow down. At cruise
speeds you have very little need for trim because the bungees kind of
keep things "in trim" but you often need to trim opposite to what you
would expect - meaning slowing down may take down trim to maintain level
flight instead of up trim and vice versa for speeding up. Unless the
"test pilot" understands the above he will think the airplane is neutral
to slightly unstable in pitch. So there is really just minor trim
required during cruise speeds until you lower flaps. Then you will
probably need full up trim because of the pitch down moment as the flaps
go down. My other complaint with the bungee trim system is that you
constantly have to adjust the tension on the bungees as any temperature
change results in more or less elasticity in the bungee. Age changes
the elasticity as well (the bungees age, not yours).
Again, congratulations on getting you airplane in the air. It
looks great.
Blue Skies,
Buz
________________________________
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient
used cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> .
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
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Wow thanks Buz (and Nick), I was about ready to look for a length of
hemp (for me not the plane).
I fully understand what you are explaining. I was also compounding the
problem as I was tightening the system up so the 'more effective' bit
was getting worse and the stability was getting worse. In fact the
stability issue was only mentioned after I tightened the trim up.
Tomorrow we'll fly without trim and then only add what we need.
I will, for sure, be in the market for the RC Allen system. What's the
delivery?
Thanks for the help and the encouragement, Regards, Clive......:-)))
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N1BZRich@aol.com
Sent: 25 June 2008 12:56
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: UK Esqual pics
Congratulations, Clive.
Great looking photos. Does the manual trim system still use the
bungees? If so, that is probably why you are having "some stability
issues". The bungees make you think you have pitch stability issues
because as you slow down the bungee pulling for up elevator becomes
"more effective" as you have less airflow over the elevator. Makes the
airplane continue to want to pitch up as you slow down. At cruise
speeds you have very little need for trim because the bungees kind of
keep things "in trim" but you often need to trim opposite to what you
would expect - meaning slowing down may take down trim to maintain level
flight instead of up trim and vice versa for speeding up. Unless the
"test pilot" understands the above he will think the airplane is neutral
to slightly unstable in pitch. So there is really just minor trim
required during cruise speeds until you lower flaps. Then you will
probably need full up trim because of the pitch down moment as the flaps
go down. My other complaint with the bungee trim system is that you
constantly have to adjust the tension on the bungees as any temperature
change results in more or less elasticity in the bungee. Age changes
the elasticity as well (the bungees age, not yours).
Again, congratulations on getting you airplane in the air. It looks
great.
Blue Skies,
Buz
________________________________
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used
cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> .
Message 11
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Congratulations Clive. It's been a long road!
Colin K.
OK
Lightning # 52 under construction.
http://www.mykitlog.com/cojaken
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James, Clive
R
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:59 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: UK Esqual pics
Well she flies, some stability issues and the trim is taking some time to
set up, I have the manual trim (no servo) and it's not simpler as I hoped,
also I have to add the tabs to the elevator as the plan is unstable in
pitch. Aside from that the rest is good, a small list of snags but nothing
that can't be fixed. Off to the airfield with my bag of spanners.
Regards, Clive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim |
In a message dated 6/25/2008 12:43:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jeynon2@verizon.net writes:
I have recently received the new trim system for my Lightning to replace the
bungee trim, but I am confused about how to balance the elevator. Is the
balance bungee still used?
I recently added the new trim tab system and it's a tremendous improvement,
but pitch control forces were a little heavy.
So - I just added a single 1/2" bungee loop using the old connection on the
elevator pushrod. Flew for the first time today for ~ 1.0 with some touch &
goes. I need less up trim on TO and landing. About 2 spaces down on the
indicator for TO.
Before I added the bungee, full up trim left me with noticeable up stick
force on final. Now that is gone. I don't even feed in full up on the trim tab.
One flight, 3 landings; not a significant data base, but tentative results
are favorable. Your experience may be different. I have no way of measuring
the applied bungee force.
Do be careful and make your first trials on a long, wide runway. Don't ask
me to define long and wide, but if you're flying out of 1000' unpaved, I
suggest you go somewhere else before connecting the bungee for the first time.
My
home field is 5700' by 100'
Has anybody else tried this?
Earl Ferguson
N17EF
Atlanta
**************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
Message 13
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That will work fine, thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James, Clive
R
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: UK Esqual pics
Sure Jim, sorry the flying pics are bit fuzzy, they were taken off a video.
The best picture I have is attached though I know she needs some stripes.
Regards, Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Langley
Sent: 25 June 2008 13:40
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: UK Esqual pics
Very nice Clive...
Can I post a couple of pictures of your airplane on my web site?
Jim!
On 6/25/08, N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com> wrote:
Congratulations, Clive.
Great looking photos. Does the manual trim system still use the
bungees? If so, that is probably why you are having "some stability
issues". The bungees make you think you have pitch stability issues because
as you slow down the bungee pulling for up elevator becomes "more effective"
as you have less airflow over the elevator. Makes the airplane continue to
want to pitch up as you slow down. At cruise speeds you have very little
need for trim because the bungees kind of keep things "in trim" but you
often need to trim opposite to what you would expect - meaning slowing down
may take down trim to maintain level flight instead of up trim and vice
versa for speeding up. Unless the "test pilot" understands the above he
will think the airplane is neutral to slightly unstable in pitch. So there
is really just minor trim required during cruise speeds until you lower
flaps. Then you will probably need full up trim because of the pitch down
moment as the flaps go down. My other complaint with the bungee trim system
is that you constantly have to adjust the tension on the bungees as any
temperature change results in more or less elasticity in the bungee. Age
changes the elasticity as well (the bungees age, not yours).
Again, congratulations on getting you airplane in the air. It looks
great.
Blue Skies,
Buz
________________________________
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient
used cars <http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> .
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim |
Earl, I replaced the stock bungee with the new trim tab. While I have not
flown it yet, I did have a question about what to leave in place with the
old system. Perhaps Nick or Buz could answer this one. I believe we took
everything out, but of course the bungee attachments are still on the
pushrod.
Jim!
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
EAFerguson@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:47 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Elevator Trim
In a message dated 6/25/2008 12:43:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jeynon2@verizon.net writes:
I have recently received the new trim system for my Lightning to replace the
bungee trim, but I am confused about how to balance the elevator. Is the
balance bungee still used?
I recently added the new trim tab system and it's a tremendous improvement,
but pitch control forces were a little heavy.
So - I just added a single 1/2" bungee loop using the old connection on the
elevator pushrod. Flew for the first time today for ~ 1.0 with some touch &
goes. I need less up trim on TO and landing. About 2 spaces down on the
indicator for TO.
Before I added the bungee, full up trim left me with noticeable up stick
force on final. Now that is gone. I don't even feed in full up on the trim
tab.
One flight, 3 landings; not a significant data base, but tentative results
are favorable. Your experience may be different. I have no way of measuring
the applied bungee force.
Do be careful and make your first trials on a long, wide runway. Don't ask
me to define long and wide, but if you're flying out of 1000' unpaved, I
suggest you go somewhere else before connecting the bungee for the first
time. My home field is 5700' by 100'
Has anybody else tried this?
Earl Ferguson
N17EF
Atlanta
_____
Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars
<http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007> .
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