Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:21 AM - Time to 'fess up and produce an ELSA (Steve)
2. 04:46 AM - Re: Time to 'fess up and produce an ELSA (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
3. 05:42 AM - Re: It sure is quiet in here (Jim Langley)
4. 06:56 AM - Re: It sure is quiet in here (IFLYSMODEL@AOL.COM)
5. 12:33 PM - Time to 'fess up and produce an ELSA (Steve)
6. 03:01 PM - Re: Time to 'fess up and produce an ELSA (Pete Krotje)
7. 09:32 PM - Re: Re: Esqual-Lightning real cruise for best MPG (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
8. 09:41 PM - Re: news letter (N1BZRich@aol.com)
9. 09:42 PM - Re: news letter (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Time to 'fess up and produce an ELSA |
"The guys in Shelbyville will do a great job on your aircraft"
...and-we wonder why the FAA is cracking down on builder assist operation
s.... with Lightning not even grandfathered in on the existing sham-51% l
ist (who screwed that up? Too late to get on now.), expect some badged visi
tors if you keep up this line of chatter on a public forum.-
-
Homebuilt needs to mean just that again, as it did before greed and-nouve
au riche-pilots-arrived on the scene.--
-
Arion needs to produce genuine-SLSA or, better yet for starters,-the le
gitimately minimal (as in 1%)-builder completion ELSA (carrying no commer
cial use and some other harmless restrictions). Is Arion working to get ELS
A status on the climb prop, no fairings, long wing version of this magnific
ent aircraft?--If so what is ETA and if not, why not?
-
The friendly ASTM approval process could not be simpler.- Just publish a
manual and promise to build according to the plans you submit from the firs
t one you build,... and you're an aircraft manufacturer with the phone ring
ing off the wall and the cash register jumping off the counter.- Caveat E
mptor but at least ethically solid... unlike experimental-registered-"hom
ebuilt" retractable turbines where the heaviest lifting the owner/builder d
oes is hoisting-their Mont Blanc Meisterst=FCck-to sign-the checks.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Time to 'fess up and produce an ELSA |
In a message dated 8/17/2008 4:22:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
stevesrolling@yahoo.com writes:
"The guys in Shelbyville will do a great job on your aircraft"
...and we wonder why the FAA is cracking down on builder assist
operations.... with Lightning not even grandfathered in on the existing sha
m 51% list
(who screwed that up? Too late to get on now.), expect some badged visitors
if
you keep up this line of chatter on a public forum.
Homebuilt needs to mean just that again, as it did before greed and nouveau
riche pilots arrived on the scene.
Arion needs to produce genuine SLSA or, better yet for starters, the
legitimately minimal (as in 1%) builder completion ELSA (carrying no commer
cial use
and some other harmless restrictions). Is Arion working to get ELSA status
on
the climb prop, no fairings, long wing version of this magnificent aircraft
?
If so what is ETA and if not, why not?
The friendly ASTM approval process could not be simpler. Just publish a
manual and promise to build according to the plans you submit from the firs
t one
you build,... and you're an aircraft manufacturer with the phone ringing of
f
the wall and the cash register jumping off the counter. Caveat Emptor but
at least ethically solid... unlike experimental-registered "homebuilt"
retractable turbines where the heaviest lifting the owner/builder does is h
oisting
their Mont Blanc Meisterst=FCck to sign the checks.
Just taking a break from writing editorials for the New York Times? Or
perhaps you are drinking the Kool-Aid of Big Brother?
What is not considered, IMHO, is safety. It is no secret that more comple
x
planes are being built. Since "factory" airplanes with high tech
performance are too expensive, the buyers turn to homebuilt designs. Those
of us who
have toured the Lightning factory have seen the excellent molding of critic
al
parts. To achieve the strength and weight of those parts is simply
impossible in your garage. To downgrade any part of that is at the cost o
f safety.
I think the changes in the 51% rule will come at the expense of safety.
I also think that the other issue is time. "Builder assist" in whatever
form is popular because few people want to spend 10 years building their fi
rst
airplane. Why should you spend 80% of your build time doing repetitive tas
ks?
Why should you spend 40-80 hours sanding and painting if you are not good
at either? Why not give a local body shop $6,000 and be done with it? T
he
result will be fewer airplanes and fewer pilots. Something we dont need.
The real cause of the policy making was not the Lightning, but the turbines
,
jets and huge piston engined birds. Once again, the Govament is using
nuclear warheads to swat flies.
BTW, Another problem arises with the SLSA. The speed limit. True some wil
l
want the long wings and reduced speeds. But others will want to go fast.
Then it has to be amateur built.
By the way, we have "badged visitors" who are Lightning owners and owners.
No worries, mate.
Doug Koenigsberg
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
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00030000000007 )
Message 3
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| Subject: | It sure is quiet in here |
Good luck in making it. I did not make the first one and hope to do so
this year. I also may have to go by other means than my Lightning if I
don=99t get my hours flown off in time.
Jim!
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n5pb@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: It sure is quiet in here
Jim,
I'm going to try to make it to the 2nd annual fly-in. I might have to
drive though and would have to take off friday and monday...don't know
if I can get away with it since I'm going to be tight on my vacation
days which will be used towards the build...hopefullly I'll be able to
work something out.
bear
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Langley <pequeajim@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:09 pm
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: It sure is quiet in here
Hey Bear, this is for sure an exciting time for you; and us too! The
guys in Shelbyville will do a great job on your aircraft, and you will
learn a ton, which is what it is all about.
We have about 3 hours on my lightning. (Oshkosh got in the way), but I
am going down to Green Landings this weekend to work and hopefully fly.
Ryan is putting the first few hours on the airplane to =9Csh ake
out=9D any of the wrinkles before I get in it. He is much more
experienced in this airplane thant I am in case of some failure.
I hope to meet up with you at the Shelbyville fly-in?
Jim!
From: <mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com>
owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [
<mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com?>
mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
<mailto:n5pb@aol.com> n5pb@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: It sure is quie t in here
Jim, Although I don't "say" much, I read this every day....I start my
build on Sept 15 at Shelbyville. I pretty much have my panel laid out
and the paint scheme completed, but I want to review it with the
professionals at SYI.
Howmany hours do you have on your bird now?
I'm looking forward to the day I fly mine. (Oct/Nov-hopefully)
Bear
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Langley < <mailto:pequeajim@gmail.com> pequeajim@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 2:15 pm
Subject: Lightning-List: It sure is quiet in here
Wow, it got quiet really quick!
(I'm feeling a little lonely...)
_____
It's time to go back to school! Get the latest trends and gadgets that
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http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: It sure is quiet in here |
Hey Guys: I hope to make it too. But as usual, I did not write down the
date.is it the 20 th or the 27 th?
My bird is supposed to fly this week, but we shall see.
Lynn
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Time to 'fess up and produce an ELSA |
Yes - I am worried, DK.- Everyone should be.- After-welcoming me to t
he forum by opening-with a personal dig and apparent attempt to discredit
my post-for being "too intellectual" (only in your mind and Dubya Bush A
merica have that and a NY Times reference somehow become insults) you proce
ed to prove all my points by giving additional concrete examples of how wea
lth, sloth, and an ethics vacuum-have corrupted the Poborezny dream.- H
ell, EAA itself has been corrupted by money and power - now willing to comp
romise fifty year-standards to lure dues-paying members-thus increasing
its political clout and staff salaries and travel budgets.
-
The full certification process with its attendant Service Bulletins and ADs
-along with rigorous qualification and experience for the honor of being
an AP and IA-are what established American GA as preeminently safe throug
h the 20th century.- Homebuilding was-introduced as a limited postwar e
xception maintaining safety by ensuring owners - not the local Earl Schieb
minimum wager or drone in a Kunming plastics factory - knew their aircraft
inside out and took personal responsibility for each molecule of it.-
-
More recently Sport Pilot (incorporating-ELSA, SLSA, and-a few-qualif
ying -experimental-and classic designs) was introduced as another limit
ed exception maintaining (jury still out) safety by limiting complexity and
performance.-
-
Your concept (and current practice)-of unlimited subcontracted components
-and extensive manufacturer fabrication and assembly masquerading as buil
der assist (all without performance constraints)-circumvents-the intent
-of homebuilding and leaves no one responsible for safety... although the
inevitable lawsuits after accidents will pierce that fantasy soon enough (
and potentially shutter Shelbyville).- More significantly,-your concept
-mocks the true foundation of aviation traditions and-safety: (full dis
closure, honesty, and privileges based on ability not wallet) while punishi
ng legitimate American manufacturers financially by destroying their market
place.
-
Everyone's needs can be met within the current system without losing respec
t for aviation or sacrificing personal integrity (understanding that is not
much of a sacrifice for fastbuck artists).--The low budget-and/or tr
aditional hobbyists-can-design and build-from scratch up to the limit
s of their budget and actual personal ability...not beyond.--For a litt
le more money and/or with less skill and time required, there is ELSA.-Li
ghtning is right now ready for that with little more than a postcard to AST
M. -At twice the price, one can get in the same airspace immediately via
SLSA. SLSA-trades no formal medical certification or builder participatio
n-for compensatory enhanced safety-based performance-constraints (VFR d
ay with limits on-weight-and seats-plus-max cruise and stall speeds
). -
-
If high rollers can demonstrate a sufficient market segment exists, then Ar
ion and others will-manufacture legitimate certified high performance des
igns like SwiftFury or some personal luxury variant of Mooney with the ulti
mate trophy being a good used Mustang.
-
If as you seem to suggest there are atypically lazy and wealthy FAA Inspect
ors turning a blind eye to expensive sham builder assist because it gets th
em into the air faster (both build time and IAS) and cheaper than following
the-rules, then our industry has found its own-pederast priests.
-
-
-
G'day=0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | Time to 'fess up and produce an ELSA |
Steve,
You are really displaying your lack of knowledge of the ASTM standards and
the process needed to prove compliance with those standards. Perhaps in the
world of some aircraft producers the process involves nothing more than
signing a few documents stating that the aircraft complies and "mailing in
the postcard". Those companies are located overseas and have no fear of
American lawyers bringing liability lawsuits against them. Some companies
seem to feel no obligation to meet the ASTM requirements.
Arion Aircraft will not fall into that group of LSA producers. If we ever
apply for S-LSA status you can be assured that we will have tested and
documented the Lightning to demonstrate compliance to every paragraph of the
applicable ASTM standards. We won't just send a postcard. We will have
proved that the landing gear will stand up to a load factor of 2 multiplied
by the required safety factor of 1.5 coupled with a side loading of 1.8
multiplied by a safety factor of 1.5. Do you think that a few of the
leading LSA suppliers tested and documented that requirement when 1 out of
ten of their aircraft have demonstrated gear collapse? Should we just
"mail it in" and let you the consumer deal with it when things are not
right? I'd bet you would have your attorney on us in a minute yet you
advocate just mailing a postcard!
Take a look at the POH and maintenance manuals of many of the LSA producers.
They are a joke but someone signed that they comply with ASTM F2483. If
Arion Aircraft enters the LSA market we will not be a "joke" and nothing
about our LSA offering will be so. Rest assured when we "Mail in the
postcard" it will be after we spend the hundreds of thousands of dollars
necessary to demonstrate that we comply.
As to builder assist - Arion is completely within the spirit and letter of
the rule as it stands now. No one knows what the final rule will look like
and the FAA will revise their original NPRM substantially after the comment
period ends Sept 30.
I think one of the major points that needs addressing in the amateur built
rules is willingness of builders to lie about their involvement in the
project. When builders sign a 8130-12 after building a Glastar (a 3500 hour
build project) in the TWO WEEKS TO TAXI program they are making a fraudulent
statement. There is no way that the 80 hours they spend gets them more than
cursory involvement in that project. Contrast that with Arion's build
assist where the builder is actively involved in every part of the
construction. Our builders are exhausted at the end of each week but they
know everything about their aircraft.
But perhaps I'm talking about the same problem whether it is amateur built
or S-LSA. There always have been and always will be those who are willing
to lie in a notarized document - who are willing to "Mail the postcard"
without doing the work. It is behavior and integrity (or lack of) that
causes the problem. For the problem of those willing to "Mail the postcard"
I have no cure. I can only assure you that Arion Aircraft will not be a
part of that group.
Pete Krotje
Arion Aircraft, LLC
931-680-1781
www.flylightning.net
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:33 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Time to 'fess up and produce an ELSA
Yes - I am worried, DK. Everyone should be. After welcoming me to the
forum by opening with a personal dig and apparent attempt to discredit my
post for being "too intellectual" (only in your mind and Dubya Bush America
have that and a NY Times reference somehow become insults) you proceed to
prove all my points by giving additional concrete examples of how wealth,
sloth, and an ethics vacuum have corrupted the Poborezny dream. Hell, EAA
itself has been corrupted by money and power - now willing to compromise
fifty year standards to lure dues-paying members thus increasing its
political clout and staff salaries and travel budgets.
The full certification process with its attendant Service Bulletins and ADs
along with rigorous qualification and experience for the honor of being an
AP and IA are what established American GA as preeminently safe through the
20th century. Homebuilding was introduced as a limited postwar exception
maintaining safety by ensuring owners - not the local Earl Schieb minimum
wager or drone in a Kunming plastics factory - knew their aircraft inside
out and took personal responsibility for each molecule of it.
More recently Sport Pilot (incorporating ELSA, SLSA, and a few qualifying
experimental and classic designs) was introduced as another limited
exception maintaining (jury still out) safety by limiting complexity and
performance.
Your concept (and current practice) of unlimited subcontracted components
and extensive manufacturer fabrication and assembly masquerading as builder
assist (all without performance constraints) circumvents the intent of
homebuilding and leaves no one responsible for safety... although the
inevitable lawsuits after accidents will pierce that fantasy soon enough
(and potentially shutter Shelbyville). More significantly, your concept
mocks the true foundation of aviation traditions and safety: (full
disclosure, honesty, and privileges based on ability not wallet) while
punishing legitimate American manufacturers financially by destroying their
marketplace.
Everyone's needs can be met within the current system without losing respect
for aviation or sacrificing personal integrity (understanding that is not
much of a sacrifice for fastbuck artists). The low budget and/or
traditional hobbyists can design and build from scratch up to the limits of
their budget and actual personal ability...not beyond. For a little more
money and/or with less skill and time required, there is ELSA. Lightning is
right now ready for that with little more than a postcard to ASTM. At twice
the price, one can get in the same airspace immediately via SLSA. SLSA
trades no formal medical certification or builder participation for
compensatory enhanced safety-based performance constraints (VFR day with
limits on weight and seats plus max cruise and stall speeds).
If high rollers can demonstrate a sufficient market segment exists, then
Arion and others will manufacture legitimate certified high performance
designs like SwiftFury or some personal luxury variant of Mooney with the
ultimate trophy being a good used Mustang.
If as you seem to suggest there are atypically lazy and wealthy FAA
Inspectors turning a blind eye to expensive sham builder assist because it
gets them into the air faster (both build time and IAS) and cheaper than
following the rules, then our industry has found its own pederast priests.
G'day
D========================
=========
D========================
=========
D========================
=========
D========================
=========
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Esqual-Lightning real cruise for best MPG |
In a message dated 8/15/2008 1:07:05 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
playgoldg@hotmail.com writes:
Someone should list a lightning in that contest for next year, or is there
something I don't get?
Yhol,
I agree, and suggested that some time ago. However, not having seen the
actual rules for the NASA GA Technology Challenge , there may be some other
requirements that I am not aware of. Of course, like any contest or
challenge, there are always some "out of pocket" expenses that could easily run
up
the cost of such a venture. We need someone like Earl Ferguson (the Lightning
world record holder) to accept the challenge, research the rules, plan the
attempt, and "make it happen". How about it, Earl?
Buz
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
Message 8
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**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
Message 9
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Thanks, Tex, I have forwarded to Nick and Mark.
Buz
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
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