Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:35 AM - antennas (Tex Mantell)
2. 08:22 AM - (GARY PENNINGTON)
3. 10:12 AM - Re: (flylightning)
4. 10:23 AM - Re: (Jim Langley)
5. 12:18 PM - Re: (Tex Mantell)
6. 12:30 PM - Re: (Pete Krotje)
7. 12:41 PM - Re: (GARY PENNINGTON)
8. 01:43 PM - Re: (flylightning)
9. 05:42 PM - Fly-in (Tex Mantell)
10. 07:44 PM - Re: Fly-in (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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I am about to mount my transponder and VFH antennas and was wondering if
anyone has had any problems. I am using the Advanced Aircraft
Electronics antennas. I would like to know where everyone has mounted
each. Tex
Message 2
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Good morning everyone
I have both a build question I would like to ask and a build situation
I'd like to share with everyone.
Question: Does anyone have an easy way to fill those annoying "Pin
Holes"?
Comment: While I was working on the tail and control surfaces, I found
several issues that needed to be addressed.
First, the fiberglass on the leading edges of the
Rudder, elevator and portions of the Vertical Tail were very
thin, and in a couple areas, so thin it would not have
been safe. I re-fiberglassed these areas for structural
integrity. I understand Arion has recently lightened
the tail about 150 lbs. For safety, it may be a good idea
to add one or two pounds back.
Second, the surfaces are laid in molds and the halves
are then bonded together with resin or epoxy.
Many of these bonded seams were not bonded or poorly
bonded. Some were separated by at least 1/16".
I used AeroPoxy to repair these areas. It may be a
good idea to examine your surfaces for the same problem.
Thanks everyone. Fly safe.
Gary Pennington
email: pennington@q.com<mailto:pennington@q.com>
Message 3
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Group,
The structure or tail section areas have not been lighten by 150lbs. The
first fuselage shell, everyone knows as the prototype weighed about 140lbs.
The current shell weighs 106lbs, a savings of 36 lbs. The flying surfaces in
the tail section i.e.; rudder elevator horizontal tails, have been lightened
by about 1-2lbs apiece. Saving around 6 lbs in the tail. Other structures
like the wings are down from 98lbs panels on the prototype to 78 lbs on
current models. The average weight decrease from the prototype has been
about 80lbs. In no way did Arion Aircraft shave weight at the cost of
structural integrity. Most of the weight savings came from new core
materials, better use of resins thru vacuum infusion, and yes somewhat
lighter lay-ups where on the prototype the schedule was not what was called
for in the design thru a mis-communication long before production. The
small void you may see in the leading edges of the rudder or even the
vertical stab of the fuse is where the two parts meet and is not a issue.
The flying surfaces are in-fact bonded together with a 2" wide bond strip on
the inside which doubtfully you can see. This would explain why looking at
the front it may appear that the surface are not stripped together when the
are. This would be the case when looking at any of the bonded parts from the
seam side. There are no seams in the leading edge of the elevator. The
vertical tail section of the aircraft has a lay-up schedule of
4oz-10oz-core-10oz-4oz, this is the shell itself, the half's are than
stripped together using 2 layers of 8" wide 10oz cloth, it is doubt-full
that this area was " so thin it was not safe". All parts are removed from
the molds and inspect for quality. They are than placed in an assembly
fixture to be built. The fiberglass shop responsible for the parts builds
many other aircraft parts of which several have STC's or PMA approvals and
go thru very strict quality control processes. Arion Aircraft has chosen to
use these same processes when manufacturing the components for the Lightning
Kit aircraft .We pride our selves on a good light weight safe part and if a
part does not meet this we would not let it out the door. It is possible
that a part may be incorrect and we would certainly take note. Remember we
put our butts into these things as well, fly family and friends and would
never sacrifice a parts quality or integrity to save a few pounds.
As for the pin holes, dupont sells a very nice high build primer which works
well to fill them.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY
PENNINGTON
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:19 AM
Subject: Lightning-List:
Good morning everyone
I have both a build question I would like to ask and a build situation I'd
like to share with everyone.
Question: Does anyone have an easy way to fill those annoying "Pin Holes"?
Comment: While I was working on the tail and control surfaces, I found
several issues that needed to be addressed.
First, the fiberglass on the leading edges of the Rudder,
elevator and portions of the Vertical Tail were very
thin, and in a couple areas, so thin it would not have been
safe. I re-fiberglassed these areas for structural
integrity. I understand Arion has recently lightened the
tail about 150 lbs. For safety, it may be a good idea
to add one or two pounds back.
Second, the surfaces are laid in molds and the halves are
then bonded together with resin or epoxy.
Many of these bonded seams were not bonded or poorly
bonded. Some were separated by at least 1/16".
I used AeroPoxy to repair these areas. It may be a good
idea to examine your surfaces for the same problem.
Thanks everyone. Fly safe.
Gary Pennington
email: pennington@q.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: htning-List: |
Nick:
Every now and then, this question will continue to come up in the group.
Some folks that have not had the pleasure of being involved from the
beginning of the list will naturally repeat the same question, and
understandably so...
I really appreciate your patience in thoroughly answering the quesitons,
(each time). All this does is show Arion's willingness to provide straight
answers to the group, and it give us builders a reminder of the quality of
the build of our aircraft.
Thanks
Jim!
N730AL
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:11 PM, flylightning <info@flylightning.net> wrote:
> Group,
>
>
> The structure or tail section areas have not been lighten by 150lbs. The
> first fuselage shell, everyone knows as the prototype weighed about 140lbs.
> The current shell weighs 106lbs, a savings of 36 lbs. The flying surfaces in
> the tail section i.e.; rudder elevator horizontal tails, have been lightened
> by about 1-2lbs apiece. Saving around 6 lbs in the tail. Other structures
> like the wings are down from 98lbs panels on the prototype to 78 lbs on
> current models. The average weight decrease from the prototype has been
> about 80lbs. In no way did Arion Aircraft shave weight at the cost of
> structural integrity. Most of the weight savings came from new core
> materials, better use of resins thru vacuum infusion, and yes somewhat
> lighter lay-ups where on the prototype the schedule was not what was called
> for in the design thru a mis-communication long before production. The
> small void you may see in the leading edges of the rudder or even the
> vertical stab of the fuse is where the two parts meet and is not a issue.
> The flying surfaces are in-fact bonded together with a 2" wide bond strip on
> the inside which doubtfully you can see. This would explain why looking at
> the front it may appear that the surface are not stripped together when the
> are. This would be the case when looking at any of the bonded parts from the
> seam side. There are no seams in the leading edge of the elevator. The
> vertical tail section of the aircraft has a lay-up schedule of
> 4oz-10oz-core-10oz-4oz, this is the shell itself, the half's are than
> stripped together using 2 layers of 8" wide 10oz cloth, it is doubt-full
> that this area was " so thin it was not safe". All parts are removed from
> the molds and inspect for quality. They are than placed in an assembly
> fixture to be built. The fiberglass shop responsible for the parts builds
> many other aircraft parts of which several have STC's or PMA approvals and
> go thru very strict quality control processes. Arion Aircraft has chosen to
> use these same processes when manufacturing the components for the Lightning
> Kit aircraft .We pride our selves on a good light weight safe part and if a
> part does not meet this we would not let it out the door. It is possible
> that a part may be incorrect and we would certainly take note. Remember we
> put our butts into these things as well, fly family and friends and would
> never sacrifice a parts quality or integrity to save a few pounds.
>
>
> As for the pin holes, dupont sells a very nice high build primer which
> works well to fill them.
>
>
> Nick Otterback
>
Message 5
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I found the same thing, and was able to insert epoxy with a long tube
going in from the hole in the bottom of each elevator. Tex
----- Original Message -----
From: GARY PENNINGTON
To: lightning-list
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 11:18 AM
Subject: Lightning-List:
Good morning everyone
I have both a build question I would like to ask and a build situation
I'd like to share with everyone.
Question: Does anyone have an easy way to fill those annoying "Pin
Holes"?
Comment: While I was working on the tail and control surfaces, I found
several issues that needed to be addressed.
First, the fiberglass on the leading edges of the
Rudder, elevator and portions of the Vertical Tail were very
thin, and in a couple areas, so thin it would not
have been safe. I re-fiberglassed these areas for structural
integrity. I understand Arion has recently lightened
the tail about 150 lbs. For safety, it may be a good idea
to add one or two pounds back.
Second, the surfaces are laid in molds and the halves
are then bonded together with resin or epoxy.
Many of these bonded seams were not bonded or poorly
bonded. Some were separated by at least 1/16".
I used AeroPoxy to repair these areas. It may be a
good idea to examine your surfaces for the same problem.
Thanks everyone. Fly safe.
Gary Pennington
email: pennington@q.com
Message 6
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Just a reminder:
Jabiru USA's last Engine Seminar for 2008 is set for November 7 - 9th.
Class size is 10 and more than half of the slots are reserved already.
Anyone looking to learn more about Jabiru engine operation, maintenance, and
overhaul is welcome to attend. For details visit
http://www.usjabiru.com/zenithseminar.html
Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
931-680-2800
www.usjabiru.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: htning-List: |
To the Lightning list
It was not my intent to ruffle Arion's feathers. I simply wanted to
share my build experiences and possibly prevent a problem for Lightning
builders which could have easily been prevented. I can understand how
protective the Arion crew is about their aircraft. I would be too. Be
that as it may, I will continue to share my build experiences with the
list, as I'm sure Nick will continue to rebut. Looking at this from a
different perspective, perhaps Arion should be thankful that builders
provide a "heads up" when possible problems exist. This way, they could
investigate and improve on a beautiful product and perhaps save
themselves considerable liability. Truthfully though, I am more
concerned with my safety and that of other Lightning pilots than I am
with Arion's feathers.
To re-address the issue of thin leading edges, I can assure you that I
didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I have considerable engineering
background and experience and I know "thin"! When I lightly pressed on
my leading edges, some edges had the consistency of tissue paper.
Likewise, some of the trailing edges had gaps of approximately 1/16".
When squeezing the surfaces together, not only were they not bonded 2",
they were not bonded at all.
Thank you. Fly safe.
Gary Pennington
email: pennington@q.com<mailto:pennington@q.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: flylightning<mailto:info@flylightning.net>
To: lightning-list@matronics.com<mailto:lightning-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:11 AM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List:
Group,
The structure or tail section areas have not been lighten by 150lbs.
The first fuselage shell, everyone knows as the prototype weighed about
140lbs. The current shell weighs 106lbs, a savings of 36 lbs. The flying
surfaces in the tail section i.e.; rudder elevator horizontal tails,
have been lightened by about 1-2lbs apiece. Saving around 6 lbs in the
tail. Other structures like the wings are down from 98lbs panels on the
prototype to 78 lbs on current models. The average weight decrease from
the prototype has been about 80lbs. In no way did Arion Aircraft shave
weight at the cost of structural integrity. Most of the weight savings
came from new core materials, better use of resins thru vacuum infusion,
and yes somewhat lighter lay-ups where on the prototype the schedule
was not what was called for in the design thru a mis-communication long
before production. The small void you may see in the leading edges of
the rudder or even the vertical stab of the fuse is where the two parts
meet and is not a issue. The flying surfaces are in-fact bonded together
with a 2" wide bond strip on the inside which doubtfully you can see.
This would explain why looking at the front it may appear that the
surface are not stripped together when the are. This would be the case
when looking at any of the bonded parts from the seam side. There are no
seams in the leading edge of the elevator. The vertical tail section of
the aircraft has a lay-up schedule of 4oz-10oz-core-10oz-4oz, this is
the shell itself, the half's are than stripped together using 2 layers
of 8" wide 10oz cloth, it is doubt-full that this area was " so thin it
was not safe". All parts are removed from the molds and inspect for
quality. They are than placed in an assembly fixture to be built. The
fiberglass shop responsible for the parts builds many other aircraft
parts of which several have STC's or PMA approvals and go thru very
strict quality control processes. Arion Aircraft has chosen to use these
same processes when manufacturing the components for the Lightning Kit
aircraft .We pride our selves on a good light weight safe part and if a
part does not meet this we would not let it out the door. It is possible
that a part may be incorrect and we would certainly take note. Remember
we put our butts into these things as well, fly family and friends and
would never sacrifice a parts quality or integrity to save a few pounds.
As for the pin holes, dupont sells a very nice high build primer which
works well to fill them.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY
PENNINGTON
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:19 AM
To: lightning-list
Subject: Lightning-List:
Good morning everyone
I have both a build question I would like to ask and a build situation
I'd like to share with everyone.
Question: Does anyone have an easy way to fill those annoying "Pin
Holes"?
Comment: While I was working on the tail and control surfaces, I found
several issues that needed to be addressed.
First, the fiberglass on the leading edges of the
Rudder, elevator and portions of the Vertical Tail were very
thin, and in a couple areas, so thin it would not
have been safe. I re-fiberglassed these areas for structural
integrity. I understand Arion has recently lightened
the tail about 150 lbs. For safety, it may be a good idea
to add one or two pounds back.
Second, the surfaces are laid in molds and the halves
are then bonded together with resin or epoxy.
Many of these bonded seams were not bonded or poorly
bonded. Some were separated by at least 1/16".
I used AeroPoxy to repair these areas. It may be a
good idea to examine your surfaces for the same problem.
Thanks everyone. Fly safe.
Gary Pennington
email: pennington@q.com<mailto:pennington@q.com>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Lightning-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 8
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Gary,
It would be very interesting to see this paper thin glass as you are
describing. Tex has mentioned something similar however this was about
kit#1. Your kit being a significantly later one I am surprised to hear of
this. Also exactly what parts? Certainly not the vertical stab as suggested.
The only leading edges that could exhibit this would be the horizontal tail
and it is very unlikely that the leading edges are not bonded.
I never suggested you fell off the turnip truck, but it is important to have
the correct information before making assumption on why or how something may
be done. What is thin? We are working on a metal aircraft here and to me the
.016 skins on the horizontal tail are thin, now that does not mean they
should be thicker, heavier is not always better. There isn't a spot on the
fuse or leading edges for that matter that are thinner than 0.0625 and that
would be the leading edges of the horizontal tail, the rudder, flaps. That
is than backed up by the bonding flange which is twice as thick. It is
possible to have small voids in this, but no areas where the glue is absent.
This may feel like a thin spot but is not a structural problem. Like wise
with the trailing edges, you may be able to squeeze the tailing edges
together and get it to separate, did you try using a feeler gauge inside to
see if the glue was void or not? Take a picture and send it or ship the
parts back for inspection, this is a good option.
We welcome builders to share there issues and concerns that is what makes
the product better. But get all the facts before making assumptions on how
we took all this weight out and did not think about the structural integrity
of the part. It is safe to say we didn't stand back and say "that looks
straight" when we engineered the thing either.
I just speak form experience with the aircraft I have personally built 3,
the prototype, serial #29, and serial# 59, so I believe I get a good look at
the evolution the product and have a good spread of what we are putting out.
If you have an issue share as you like but please send photos for reference
and do not make assumptions.
Besides Arion was not a Bird but a horse and has no feathers to Ruffle.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY
PENNINGTON
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List:
To the Lightning list
It was not my intent to ruffle Arion's feathers. I simply wanted to share my
build experiences and possibly prevent a problem for Lightning builders
which could have easily been prevented. I can understand how protective the
Arion crew is about their aircraft. I would be too. Be that as it may, I
will continue to share my build experiences with the list, as I'm sure Nick
will continue to rebut. Looking at this from a different perspective,
perhaps Arion should be thankful that builders provide a "heads up" when
possible problems exist. This way, they could investigate and improve on a
beautiful product and perhaps save themselves considerable liability.
Truthfully though, I am more concerned with my safety and that of other
Lightning pilots than I am with Arion's feathers.
To re-address the issue of thin leading edges, I can assure you that I
didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I have considerable engineering
background and experience and I know "thin"! When I lightly pressed on my
leading edges, some edges had the consistency of tissue paper. Likewise,
some of the trailing edges had gaps of approximately 1/16". When squeezing
the surfaces together, not only were they not bonded 2", they were not
bonded at all.
Thank you. Fly safe.
Gary Pennington
email: pennington@q.com
----- Original Message -----
From: flylightning <mailto:info@flylightning.net>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:11 AM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List:
Group,
The structure or tail section areas have not been lighten by 150lbs. The
first fuselage shell, everyone knows as the prototype weighed about 140lbs.
The current shell weighs 106lbs, a savings of 36 lbs. The flying surfaces in
the tail section i.e.; rudder elevator horizontal tails, have been lightened
by about 1-2lbs apiece. Saving around 6 lbs in the tail. Other structures
like the wings are down from 98lbs panels on the prototype to 78 lbs on
current models. The average weight decrease from the prototype has been
about 80lbs. In no way did Arion Aircraft shave weight at the cost of
structural integrity. Most of the weight savings came from new core
materials, better use of resins thru vacuum infusion, and yes somewhat
lighter lay-ups where on the prototype the schedule was not what was called
for in the design thru a mis-communication long before production. The
small void you may see in the leading edges of the rudder or even the
vertical stab of the fuse is where the two parts meet and is not a issue.
The flying surfaces are in-fact bonded together with a 2" wide bond strip on
the inside which doubtfully you can see. This would explain why looking at
the front it may appear that the surface are not stripped together when the
are. This would be the case when looking at any of the bonded parts from the
seam side. There are no seams in the leading edge of the elevator. The
vertical tail section of the aircraft has a lay-up schedule of
4oz-10oz-core-10oz-4oz, this is the shell itself, the half's are than
stripped together using 2 layers of 8" wide 10oz cloth, it is doubt-full
that this area was " so thin it was not safe". All parts are removed from
the molds and inspect for quality. They are than placed in an assembly
fixture to be built. The fiberglass shop responsible for the parts builds
many other aircraft parts of which several have STC's or PMA approvals and
go thru very strict quality control processes. Arion Aircraft has chosen to
use these same processes when manufacturing the components for the Lightning
Kit aircraft .We pride our selves on a good light weight safe part and if a
part does not meet this we would not let it out the door. It is possible
that a part may be incorrect and we would certainly take note. Remember we
put our butts into these things as well, fly family and friends and would
never sacrifice a parts quality or integrity to save a few pounds.
As for the pin holes, dupont sells a very nice high build primer which works
well to fill them.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY
PENNINGTON
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:19 AM
Subject: Lightning-List:
Good morning everyone
I have both a build question I would like to ask and a build situation I'd
like to share with everyone.
Question: Does anyone have an easy way to fill those annoying "Pin Holes"?
Comment: While I was working on the tail and control surfaces, I found
several issues that needed to be addressed.
First, the fiberglass on the leading edges of the Rudder,
elevator and portions of the Vertical Tail were very
thin, and in a couple areas, so thin it would not have been
safe. I re-fiberglassed these areas for structural
integrity. I understand Arion has recently lightened the
tail about 150 lbs. For safety, it may be a good idea
to add one or two pounds back.
Second, the surfaces are laid in molds and the halves are
then bonded together with resin or epoxy.
Many of these bonded seams were not bonded or poorly
bonded. Some were separated by at least 1/16".
I used AeroPoxy to repair these areas. It may be a good
idea to examine your surfaces for the same problem.
Thanks everyone. Fly safe.
Gary Pennington
email: pennington@q.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 9
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Buzz, thanks for the suggestion to talk about building the Lightning at
home at the fly-in. I think I could be helpful in pointing out the pro's
and Con's of both the Builder assist program and doing on your own.
I helped Rayn assemble one of the first Lightning's at Shelbyville
and of course I am building mine at home. I have been down many times to
Shelbyville and have seen what happens during the program there.
To tell people how to evaluate the time vs. money and how it relates
to the finished product. Its really a toss up when you take into
consideration what is required in time and equipment, space,and
environment.
Another major item to consider is the other half. (wife) I would
like to bring my wife along to explain to the ladies present what there
in for and how to handle a few things.
My wife is a great speaker and would present things in a very
humorous way. Like what to say when the neighbors say "He's building a
what in the garage?" or why she is on first name basis with the FedEx
and the UPS guy. How to tell if those cloths can be cleaned or thrown
out.
I really wish I could be there, but I have another commitment. Maybe
next year or at Oshkosh.
TEX
Message 10
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In a message dated 9/12/2008 8:43:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wb2ssj@frontiernet.net writes:
I really wish I could be there, but I have another commitment.
Bummer, Tex. I know you would have been able to provide a good perspective
on building at home. Why not plan on it for 2009.
Buz
**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
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