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1. 04:24 PM - Re: (selwyn)
2. 05:42 PM - Re: (Wayne Patterson)
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| Subject: | Re: htning-List: |
Kayberg(at)AOL.COM wrote:
>
> Frankly I am a little surprised that you thought the leading edges of the wings
and tail surfaces were structural ........
>
> You may also not realize how light the loads are on Lightning wings. A ride
in bumpy air will convince you of that!!!
>
Hmmm.. The leading edges, specifically the join between top and bottom skins
are part of the "D nose" structure forward of the spar. If that is not structural
can anyone explain where the torsional loads in the wing are carried?
As for how light the loads on the wings are, in simple terms from the Arion specifications
page, 1425 lbs at 5g is 7125lbs. Thats light?
--------
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 4301#204301
Message 2
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Over here in Oz many of us read this list to stay up to date with
happenings in the Lightning world - and I must admit some of us are
often a little amused by some of the interesting interactions on the
list. In this case I will make comment because it appears that our US
cousins, as usual, are being very polite - whereas I don't suffer from
that restriction.
My beef (if you understand that expression!) is not with you Gary - but
with your approach and technique. I'm afraid that I feel if you were
genuine in thinking that your main concern was to inform Arion of a
possible issue, or indeed find out if there was an issue at all, you
would have contacted them directly - which would have been faster, more
reliable and more accountable (you would have had a record of
communication with them). You might also have done so way back when it
occurred to you that something might have needed checking. But it
appears that you didn't pass your observation on then (or check it then)
which would have been the most logical time to do so if your purpose was
to help Arion and/or other builders.
>From an analytical point of view, there is only a small part of what you
have said that can be checked for accuracy - we have to trust you for
the rest as it appears that all evidence of your concern has been
removed in the build process. Unfortunately, the only part that can be
checked is your "understanding" that the tail has been lightened by
150lbs - and that verifiable statement is wrong. This doesn't help with
confidence with the rest of your statements.
Finally, this is public forum, used (mot unsurprisingly) by a wider
audience than fairly well informed Lightning Builders. Your release of
a concern in this public forum prior to checking of the veracity of that
concern directly with organisation concerned, shows considerable
irresponsibility in terms of causing damage to organisation's
reputation. I might go further and wonder if there is an agenda for the
timing and manner of the action.
Wayne Patterson
LOUGHTON PATTERSON GROUP
PO Box 398 South Perth 6951
08 94742126
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY
PENNINGTON
Sent: Saturday, 13 September 2008 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List:
Nick
I believe you missed a great opportunity. An opportunity to demonstrate
to your customers that you really want constructive criticism from them,
rather than chastising them for it.
I have clearly explained the areas in question in my previous emails. I
will not repeat it. Further, I have already repaired the faulty areas,
primed them, sanded them and they are ready for paint. In the future, if
I find other areas of concern, I will photograph them and attach them
with emails as you suggest.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: flylightning <mailto:info@flylightning.net>
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List:
Gary,
It would be very interesting to see this paper thin glass as you
are describing. Tex has mentioned something similar however this was
about kit#1. Your kit being a significantly later one I am surprised to
hear of this. Also exactly what parts? Certainly not the vertical stab
as suggested. The only leading edges that could exhibit this would be
the horizontal tail and it is very unlikely that the leading edges are
not bonded.
I never suggested you fell off the turnip truck, but it is
important to have the correct information before making assumption on
why or how something may be done. What is thin? We are working on a
metal aircraft here and to me the .016 skins on the horizontal tail are
thin, now that does not mean they should be thicker, heavier is not
always better. There isn't a spot on the fuse or leading edges for that
matter that are thinner than 0.0625 and that would be the leading edges
of the horizontal tail, the rudder, flaps. That is than backed up by the
bonding flange which is twice as thick. It is possible to have small
voids in this, but no areas where the glue is absent. This may feel like
a thin spot but is not a structural problem. Like wise with the trailing
edges, you may be able to squeeze the tailing edges together and get it
to separate, did you try using a feeler gauge inside to see if the glue
was void or not? Take a picture and send it or ship the parts back for
inspection, this is a good option.
We welcome builders to share there issues and concerns that is
what makes the product better. But get all the facts before making
assumptions on how we took all this weight out and did not think about
the structural integrity of the part. It is safe to say we didn't stand
back and say "that looks straight" when we engineered the thing either.
I just speak form experience with the aircraft I have personally
built 3, the prototype, serial #29, and serial# 59, so I believe I get a
good look at the evolution the product and have a good spread of what we
are putting out.
If you have an issue share as you like but please send photos
for reference and do not make assumptions.
Besides Arion was not a Bird but a horse and has no feathers to
Ruffle.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY
PENNINGTON
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 2:40 PM
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Lightning-List:
To the Lightning list
It was not my intent to ruffle Arion's feathers. I simply wanted
to share my build experiences and possibly prevent a problem for
Lightning builders which could have easily been prevented. I can
understand how protective the Arion crew is about their aircraft. I
would be too. Be that as it may, I will continue to share my build
experiences with the list, as I'm sure Nick will continue to rebut.
Looking at this from a different perspective, perhaps Arion should be
thankful that builders provide a "heads up" when possible problems
exist. This way, they could investigate and improve on a beautiful
product and perhaps save themselves considerable liability. Truthfully
though, I am more concerned with my safety and that of other Lightning
pilots than I am with Arion's feathers.
To re-address the issue of thin leading edges, I can assure you
that I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I have considerable
engineering background and experience and I know "thin"! When I lightly
pressed on my leading edges, some edges had the consistency of tissue
paper. Likewise, some of the trailing edges had gaps of approximately
1/16". When squeezing the surfaces together, not only were they not
bonded 2", they were not bonded at all.
Thank you. Fly safe.
Gary Pennington
email: pennington@q.com
----- Original Message -----
From: flylightning <mailto:info@flylightning.net>
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:11 AM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List:
Group,
The structure or tail section areas have not been
lighten by 150lbs. The first fuselage shell, everyone knows as the
prototype weighed about 140lbs. The current shell weighs 106lbs, a
savings of 36 lbs. The flying surfaces in the tail section i.e.; rudder
elevator horizontal tails, have been lightened by about 1-2lbs apiece.
Saving around 6 lbs in the tail. Other structures like the wings are
down from 98lbs panels on the prototype to 78 lbs on current models. The
average weight decrease from the prototype has been about 80lbs. In no
way did Arion Aircraft shave weight at the cost of structural integrity.
Most of the weight savings came from new core materials, better use of
resins thru vacuum infusion, and yes somewhat lighter lay-ups where on
the prototype the schedule was not what was called for in the design
thru a mis-communication long before production. The small void you may
see in the leading edges of the rudder or even the vertical stab of the
fuse is where the two parts meet and is not a issue. The flying surfaces
are in-fact bonded together with a 2" wide bond strip on the inside
which doubtfully you can see. This would explain why looking at the
front it may appear that the surface are not stripped together when the
are. This would be the case when looking at any of the bonded parts from
the seam side. There are no seams in the leading edge of the elevator.
The vertical tail section of the aircraft has a lay-up schedule of
4oz-10oz-core-10oz-4oz, this is the shell itself, the half's are than
stripped together using 2 layers of 8" wide 10oz cloth, it is doubt-full
that this area was " so thin it was not safe". All parts are removed
from the molds and inspect for quality. They are than placed in an
assembly fixture to be built. The fiberglass shop responsible for the
parts builds many other aircraft parts of which several have STC's or
PMA approvals and go thru very strict quality control processes. Arion
Aircraft has chosen to use these same processes when manufacturing the
components for the Lightning Kit aircraft .We pride our selves on a good
light weight safe part and if a part does not meet this we would not let
it out the door. It is possible that a part may be incorrect and we
would certainly take note. Remember we put our butts into these things
as well, fly family and friends and would never sacrifice a parts
quality or integrity to save a few pounds.
As for the pin holes, dupont sells a very nice high
build primer which works well to fill them.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY
PENNINGTON
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:19 AM
To: lightning-list
Subject: Lightning-List:
Good morning everyone
I have both a build question I would like to ask and a
build situation I'd like to share with everyone.
Question: Does anyone have an easy way to fill those
annoying "Pin Holes"?
Comment: While I was working on the tail and control
surfaces, I found several issues that needed to be addressed.
First, the fiberglass on the leading
edges of the Rudder, elevator and portions of the Vertical Tail were
very
thin, and in a couple areas, so thin it
would not have been safe. I re-fiberglassed these areas for structural
integrity. I understand Arion has
recently lightened the tail about 150 lbs. For safety, it may be a good
idea
to add one or two pounds back.
Second, the surfaces are laid in molds
and the halves are then bonded together with resin or epoxy.
Many of these bonded seams were not
bonded or poorly bonded. Some were separated by at least 1/16".
I used AeroPoxy to repair these areas.
It may be a good idea to examine your surfaces for the same problem.
Thanks everyone. Fly safe.
Gary Pennington
email: pennington@q.com
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