Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:31 AM - Blanking Effect (wampam)
2. 10:19 AM - Re: Blanking Effect (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
3. 10:32 AM - Re: Blanking Effect (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
4. 10:40 AM - Re: Blanking Effect (Mefford, Walt)
5. 10:58 AM - Re: Blanking Effect (Mefford, Walt)
6. 11:01 AM - Re: Blanking Effect (Kayberg@aol.com)
7. 11:21 AM - Re: Blanking Effect (Mefford, Walt)
8. 04:39 PM - Re: Blanking Effect (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
9. 05:05 PM - Re: Blanking Effect (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
10. 05:18 PM - Re: Blanking Effect (Brian Whittingham)
11. 05:37 PM - Re: Blanking Effect (ryan@greenlandings.com)
Message 1
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Can anyone describe to me 'blanking effect'? Has anyone had this problem with
their lightning? Seems that my lightning has no pitch control during takeoff
(attempting).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9493#209493
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| Subject: | Re: Blanking Effect |
In a message dated 10/20/2008 12:31:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
walt.mefford@garmin.com writes:
Can anyone describe to me 'blanking effect'? Has anyone had this problem
with their lightning? Seems that my lightning has no pitch control during
takeoff (attempting).
Walt,
We really need to know more about what you are experiencing. I really
doubt that you are having the classic "blanking effect" on takeoff since so
many other Lightnings have had no problems during that flight regime. The most
common (although it really isn't common) type of blanking effect is on an
airplane with aft fuselage nacelle mounted engines that are able to block
airflow to the tail (elevator) during high AOA maneuvering. This has been known
to cause deep stalls that have been unrecoverable.
As far as any type of blanking effect in flying the Lightning I have
seen (actually felt) a very slight situation that I would describe as blanking
effect on only one airplane, and that was the Hybrid Lightning (Esqual
fuselage with the first set of Lightning wings). That airplane had flaps that
would
go down 45 degrees and when doing a full flap, full rudder deflection slip,
I would feel the elevator be blanked for just a second then the nose would
drop and you would regain elevator effectiveness. Of course it would do it
again unless you let off some of the rudder or elevator throw. I have NOT seen
this on any of the production Lightning kits, as Nick has limited the flap
down movement to 40 degrees. And you really don't need 40 degrees on a normal
Lightning landing.
As to your situation, we really need more info to analyze what you might
be experiencing:
- First, have you insured your elevator up travel is what is call for in
the plans? Some have miss-adjusted their elevator geometry set up and
initially did not have all the up travel that is called for. The airplane still
will
rotate, but at a higher airspeed.
- Second, what speeds are you talking about?
- What is your takeoff technique? Are you using 10 degrees of flaps? Do
you have the bungee trim system or the new trim tab?
- Oh yes, what is your CG location?
By knowing the above, I am sure we can figure out what you are experiencing.
Blue Skies,
Buz
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Blanking Effect |
In a message dated 10/20/2008 12:31:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
walt.mefford@garmin.com writes:
Can anyone describe to me 'blanking effect'? Has anyone had this problem
with their lightning? Seems that my lightning has no pitch control during
takeoff (attempting).
I think a little more information is necessary to get a good response to
this question.
The short answer is that you are not going fast enough if you dont have
pitch authority. The blanking that was suggested (and debated) has to do with
full flaps and limited elevators just before a stall landing.
If you are doing high speed taxi, you should not have full flaps deployed.
Unless you are at a very short field, the first flight should be with no
flaps at all.
I usually caution people not to do much high speed taxi. Definitely DO NOT
do "crow hops"
You cant get a Lightning far enough out of rig to lose control if you just
line up the trailing edge and be sure the ailerons point up when you move the
stick toward them, so just GO FOR IT!
But you should explain further.
Doug Koenigsberg
Message 4
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-Buz
I am about 1200 miles from where the plane is and most of the
information I have is second hand. Here is what I know so far.
* The CG has been checked and is well within limits under the
current configuration - fuel (30gal), pilot (170lbs) and no baggage. -
1143lbs:CG 31.8"
* Engine power is OK and the plane is accelerating to well above
rotation speed.
* The nose wheel will not lift with full back pressure at any
speed thus far.
* The test pilot indicated that it felt as though the stabilizer
was not even connected (no back pressure).
o All connections have been checked and are functional.
Walt Mefford
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N1BZRich@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Blanking Effect
In a message dated 10/20/2008 12:31:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
walt.mefford@garmin.com writes:
Can anyone describe to me 'blanking effect'? Has anyone had
this problem with their lightning? Seems that my lightning has no pitch
control during takeoff (attempting).
Walt,
We really need to know more about what you are experiencing. I
really doubt that you are having the classic "blanking effect" on
takeoff since so many other Lightnings have had no problems during that
flight regime. The most common (although it really isn't common) type
of blanking effect is on an airplane with aft fuselage nacelle mounted
engines that are able to block airflow to the tail (elevator) during
high AOA maneuvering. This has been known to cause deep stalls that
have been unrecoverable.
As far as any type of blanking effect in flying the Lightning I have
seen (actually felt) a very slight situation that I would describe as
blanking effect on only one airplane, and that was the Hybrid Lightning
(Esqual fuselage with the first set of Lightning wings). That airplane
had flaps that would go down 45 degrees and when doing a full flap, full
rudder deflection slip, I would feel the elevator be blanked for just a
second then the nose would drop and you would regain elevator
effectiveness. Of course it would do it again unless you let off some
of the rudder or elevator throw. I have NOT seen this on any of the
production Lightning kits, as Nick has limited the flap down movement to
40 degrees. And you really don't need 40 degrees on a normal Lightning
landing.
As to your situation, we really need more info to analyze what you
might be experiencing:
- First, have you insured your elevator up travel is what is call for
in the plans? Some have miss-adjusted their elevator geometry set up
and initially did not have all the up travel that is called for. The
airplane still will rotate, but at a higher airspeed.
- Second, what speeds are you talking about?
- What is your takeoff technique? Are you using 10 degrees of flaps?
Do you have the bungee trim system or the new trim tab?
- Oh yes, what is your CG location?
By knowing the above, I am sure we can figure out what you are
experiencing.
Blue Skies,
Buz
________________________________
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Oops, that is 1191lbs - 32.06"
WM
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N1BZRich@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Blanking Effect
In a message dated 10/20/2008 12:31:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
walt.mefford@garmin.com writes:
Can anyone describe to me 'blanking effect'? Has anyone had
this problem with their lightning? Seems that my lightning has no pitch
control during takeoff (attempting).
Walt,
We really need to know more about what you are experiencing. I
really doubt that you are having the classic "blanking effect" on
takeoff since so many other Lightnings have had no problems during that
flight regime. The most common (although it really isn't common) type
of blanking effect is on an airplane with aft fuselage nacelle mounted
engines that are able to block airflow to the tail (elevator) during
high AOA maneuvering. This has been known to cause deep stalls that
have been unrecoverable.
As far as any type of blanking effect in flying the Lightning I have
seen (actually felt) a very slight situation that I would describe as
blanking effect on only one airplane, and that was the Hybrid Lightning
(Esqual fuselage with the first set of Lightning wings). That airplane
had flaps that would go down 45 degrees and when doing a full flap, full
rudder deflection slip, I would feel the elevator be blanked for just a
second then the nose would drop and you would regain elevator
effectiveness. Of course it would do it again unless you let off some
of the rudder or elevator throw. I have NOT seen this on any of the
production Lightning kits, as Nick has limited the flap down movement to
40 degrees. And you really don't need 40 degrees on a normal Lightning
landing.
As to your situation, we really need more info to analyze what you
might be experiencing:
- First, have you insured your elevator up travel is what is call for
in the plans? Some have miss-adjusted their elevator geometry set up
and initially did not have all the up travel that is called for. The
airplane still will rotate, but at a higher airspeed.
- Second, what speeds are you talking about?
- What is your takeoff technique? Are you using 10 degrees of flaps?
Do you have the bungee trim system or the new trim tab?
- Oh yes, what is your CG location?
By knowing the above, I am sure we can figure out what you are
experiencing.
Blue Skies,
Buz
________________________________
New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining,
Movies, Events, News &
moreol?redir=http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002">Try
it
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| Subject: | Re: Blanking Effect |
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Message 7
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I assume they were in the normal takeoff position of 10 degrees. I will
have to check.
-Walt
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Kayberg@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Blanking Effect
What about the flaps position?
Doug
In a message dated 10/20/2008 1:41:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
walt.mefford@garmin.com writes:
-Buz
I am about 1200 miles from where the plane is and most of the
information I have is second hand. Here is what I know so far.
* The CG has been checked and is well within limits
under the current configuration - fuel (30gal), pilot (170lbs) and no
baggage. - 1143lbs:CG 31.8"
* Engine power is OK and the plane is accelerating to
well above rotation speed.
* The nose wheel will not lift with full back pressure
at any speed thus far.
* The test pilot indicated that it felt as though the
stabilizer was not even connected (no back pressure).
o All connections have been checked and are functional.
Walt Mefford
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Blanking Effect |
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Blanking Effect |
In a message dated 10/20/2008 1:33:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Kayberg@aol.com writes:
The short answer is that you are not going fast enough if you dont have
pitch authority. The blanking that was suggested (and debated) has to do with
full flaps and limited elevators just before a stall landing.
Unless you are at a very short field, the first flight should be with no
flaps at all.
Doug,
I generally agree with your "short answer" comment that the airplane is
not going fast enough to get pitch authority. However, I am not familiar
with "blanking" being suggested (and debated) that had to do with full flaps and
limited elevator just before a stall landing. What are we talking about
here? The basic design of the Lightning (elevator not high above the thrust
line and flaps limited to 40 degrees full down) will prevent any blanking of the
elevator certainly up to and at the stall angle of attack. In fact with
flaps down, you are much further from even getting close to this situation than
you are with flaps up. Remember what the Lightning does as you lower flaps -
the nose goes down. And I have not idea what is meant by "limited
elevators".
I also don't totally agree that the first flight should be with no flaps
at all. For the first flight in a Lightning, during the "near stall
investigation" portion, I recommend you accomplish the yaw, roll, pitch and trim
investigation between speeds of 85 to 65 mph, clean, then at 10 degree flaps,
then at 20 degrees, and then at 30 degrees. Some people even take the bottom
end of the speed down to 60 mph and that would work well with the new tips and
still keep you above the predicted clean stall speed. Of course if any of
these step by step objectives indicate any problems, stop at that point and
make that first landing at the previous setting. This is kind of what is
recommended in the FAA Advisory Circular 90-89 (I hope I am remembering that
number right.)
Buz
**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.
Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out
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Message 10
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I remember encountering this on both the Frankensqual and one of the Jabiru
's. When I did it with the Jabiru it kind of surprised me. I did a pretty
agressive slip with full rudder and when I got there the nose just went do
wn. I had full flaps in there. I knew that I didn't stall the plane=2C ha
d plenty of speed. I did what they taught me and undid what I had done. T
he Jabiru leaves rudder in until you manually take it back out so you see w
here that could get kind of dicey. I went around to think about it and was
able to replicate it at a higher altitude. I came back and told Ben what
I thought was happening and he told me that I wasn't supposed to do that.
I believe the Cessna 172 might be the same on the models that have the 40 d
egrees of flaps. The Cessna Cardinal has one of the famous stories of blan
keting which required a fix. The plane was blanking and loosing elevator a
uthority on final right before touchdown making for dinged props and nose g
ear. The fix was to put a slot in the leading edge of the horizontal stab.
Having said that=2C you're not getting blanking in the Lightning. Someth
ing isn't right. My first guess would be as has been suggested=2C not full
elevator travel. Brian W.
From: N1BZRich@aol.comDate: Mon=2C 20 Oct 2008 20:03:57 -0400Subject: Re: L
ightning-List: Blanking EffectTo: lightning-list@matronics.com
In a message dated 10/20/2008 1:33:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time=2C Kayberg
@aol.com writes:
The short answer is that you are not going fast enough if you dont have pit
ch authority. The blanking that was suggested (and debated) has to do wit
h full flaps and limited elevators just before a stall landing.
Unless you are at a very short field=2C the first flight should be with no
flaps at all.
Doug=2C
I generally agree with your "short answer" comment that the airplane is
not going fast enough to get pitch authority. However=2C I am not familia
r with "blanking" being suggested (and debated) that had to do with full fl
aps and limited elevator just before a stall landing. What are we talking
about here? The basic design of the Lightning (elevator not high above the
thrust line and flaps limited to 40 degrees full down) will prevent any bl
anking of the elevator certainly up to and at the stall angle of attack. I
n fact with flaps down=2C you are much further from even getting close to t
his situation than you are with flaps up. Remember what the Lightning does
as you lower flaps - the nose goes down. And I have not idea what is mean
t by "limited elevators".
I also don't totally agree that the first flight should be with no flap
s at all. For the first flight in a Lightning=2C during the "near stall in
vestigation" portion=2C I recommend you accomplish the yaw=2C roll=2C pitch
and trim investigation between speeds of 85 to 65 mph=2C clean=2C then at
10 degree flaps=2C then at 20 degrees=2C and then at 30 degrees. Some peop
le even take the bottom end of the speed down to 60 mph and that would work
well with the new tips and still keep you above the predicted clean stall
speed. Of course if any of these step by step objectives indicate any prob
lems=2C stop at that point and make that first landing at the previous set
ting. This is kind of what is recommended in the FAA Advisory Circular 90
-89 (I hope I am remembering that number right.)
Buz
New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining=2C Mo
vies=2C Events=2C News & moreol?redir=http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=e
mlcntnew00000002">Try it out!
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Blanking Effect |
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