---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/14/08: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:05 AM - Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... (Matt Dralle) 1. 04:33 AM - Re: ATT. Doug K (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 2. 05:07 AM - Re: When was your first flight?? What about your N-number? (WBrowns) 3. 05:07 AM - Re: When was your first flight?? What about your N-number? (EAFerguson@AOL.COM) 4. 06:04 AM - Re: When was your first flight?? What about your N-number? (Rick Bowen) 5. 07:04 AM - Re: IVO first flight (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 6. 09:55 AM - N82PB taxi and first take off video (Mark Stauffer) 7. 02:10 PM - Re: When was your first flight?? What about your N-number? (n5pb@AOL.COM) 8. 02:17 PM - Elevator Balance modification. (flylightning) 9. 02:27 PM - Re: N82PB taxi and first take off video (n5pb@AOL.COM) 10. 03:42 PM - Re: Elevator Balance modification. (Brian Whittingham) 11. 03:44 PM - Re: IVO first flight (Brian Whittingham) 12. 03:54 PM - Re: Veteran's Day (Brian Whittingham) 13. 07:58 PM - Re: Elevator Balance modification. (EAFerguson@AOL.COM) 14. 11:32 PM - Re: IVO first flight (selwyn) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:37 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Lightning-List: Fund Raiser Lagging Last Year By Over 30%... As of the 13th, the Fund Raiser is currently about 30% behind last year in terms of the number of Contributions. Yet, oddly the number of messages posted per day is up by 10 to 20% on the average. It costs real money to run these Lists and they are supported 100% though your Contributions during the Fund Raiser. Won't you please take a minute right now to make your Contribution to keep these Lists up and running? Contribution Page: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:01 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: ATT. Doug K In a message dated 11/13/2008 9:27:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wb2ssj@frontiernet.net writes: Maybe we should look at section 12 of the manual, 4 pullies with an axle. Tex Touche doug ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:30 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: When was your first flight?? What about your N-number? From: "WBrowns" N716MZ Kit #50 06-24-2008 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214156#214156 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:36 AM PST US From: EAFerguson@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: When was your first flight?? What about your N-number? In a message dated 11/13/2008 5:06:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, info@flylightning.net writes: 3-3-2006 Prototype N233ALDoes that make me first? Nick Not the first paying customer, check your logbook for N17EF. Earl **************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & r=htt p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:03 AM PST US From: Rick Bowen Subject: RE: Lightning-List: When was your first flight?? What about your N-number? Hey Mark=2C N727RB.... 1'st flight by Nick on 2/26/07. Now=2C about that centerfold thing with you..... Rick N727RB _________________________________________________________________ Get 5 GB of storage with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_5gb_ 112008 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:21 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: IVO first flight Sorry, but I gotta be a little fuzzy on the details. It was just two short flights by two different people. The airspeed had just been changed because it "indicated a little low" but the new one "indicates a little high". The speed runs were in level flight but the optimum prop settings had not be reached. 175 mph is perhaps the fastest this airframe had gone...and it has had a couple of Sensnich props on it before. Altitude for the runs was about 1500 feet. It was a cool day, so probably close to sea level. The pitch adjust worked fine. When you lowered the nose after the climbout, the rpms went past 3300 easily and the pitch adjust dropped it to ???? . Tweeking is needed because it would not turn more than 2350 static. The owner is looking for more thrust on takeoff and more speed at the top. The consensus of the test pilots was, "that is the fastest that airplane has ever gone" ...both the level passes and the obligitory dive to high speed down the runway were fast. I dont know the cost of the IVO, since that was not in my department, but it is close to the cost of the ground adjust Senny. More than a fixed pitch, but not by a lot. the other thing was cooling. Even with no spinner (fitting one will be a bitch) it ran cooler than usual. Of course it was a cool day, but cooling seemed better. The IVO has good pitch to the blades close to the air inlets. Again, I would caution those out there in radio land to wait until more testing is done. And dont plan on it being real scientific. In my mind, we need to see how the prop stands the pulses. However, the consensus was that this is the smoothest prop yet, so it cant all be bad. the IVO needs to be retorqued ever hour or so during the first 10 hours of running. The blades "settle in" to the grip on the hub plates and it is very important that those not get loose. There is some plan afoot to remove one blade and try it as a two blade (easily done with an IVO) Keep in mind this project is assisted by the Green Landings technical staff, but not under their direct control. Doug In a message dated 11/13/2008 9:23:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, N1BZRich@aol.com writes: Doug, How about some clarification of what you mean by "a top of 175". Is that MHP or Knots? And what is "low altitude"? And since you said low altitude, I assume you are talking indicated airspeed. Are we talking wide open throttle? And are we talking about a "pass down the runway" (I seem to remember you guys are about 500 AGL)? And if so, what was the rpm at WOT? Were you able to adjust the pitch in flight to get the engine to be WOT at 3300 rpm? With the fixed pitch I am now using I can see just over 200 MPH (pulling back the throttle to keep from going over 3300 rpm) on a high speed pass down the runway, but remember I am basically at sea level. At 5000', (again pulling back the throttle to stay at 3300) it shows 185 to 187 MPH true. Also what is the going price for the in-flight adjustable IVO? Does it still have those narrow cord blades? How is the Cub project coming along? And remember, you are invited to come here to fly my Cub. Blue Skies, Buz ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:56 AM PST US From: "Mark Stauffer" Subject: Lightning-List: N82PB taxi and first take off video Here are the links to YouTube of Paul Bryant's Lightning taxi and first flight. First landing is coming shortly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1q5lAW1NqA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63XLc5qUZmI Please, no comments on the quality of video. I'm much better at building planes than I am of filming them!! (Thank goodness!!) Have a great day! Mark Mark Stauffer Production Manager Arion Aircraft 2842 Hwy 231 North Shelbyville, TN 37160 (931) 680-1781 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:10:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: Lightning-List: When was your first flight?? What about your N-number? From: n5pb@AOL.COM Mark, N82PB=C2-was 11-10-08, but you knew that.=C2- Paul -----Original Message----- From: Mark Stauffer Sent: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 5:26 pm Subject: RE: Lightning-List: When was your first flight?? What about your N- number? I don't know. Did you actually fly it or was it along the same lines of "did we really land on the moon"? -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list -server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of flylightning Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:59 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: When was your first flight?? What about your N- number? Mark, 3-3-2006 Prototype N233ALDoes that make me first? Nick _____________________________________________ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list -server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Stauffer Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: Lightning-List: When was your first flight?? What about your N-numb er? To all, I'm in the process of updating and filling in the blanks of my spreadsheet. We're trying to list everyone's first flight and quite honestly I don't alwa ys write them down when we do them here and sometimes we don't hear about th em until days or weeks after they happen. Either way please send me the date of your first flight. Also, the same goes for N-numbers. I have quite a few but again I would like to fill in the blanks. Even reserved numbers count! I'd=2 0like to do this for as long as possible. It's nice while we're a small comm unity that we can have this type of contact with our customers. Of course wh en we grow to the size of Van's it might be a bit more difficult but I'll cr oss that bridge when I get there!! Have a great day! Mark Mark Stauffer Production Manager Arion Aircraft 2842 Hwy 231 North Shelbyville, TN 37160 (931) 680-1781 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chre f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Lightning-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on -= the Contribution link below to find out more about -= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! - -= List Contribution Web Site: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution - -= Thank you for your generous support! - -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - -======================== -= - The Lightning-List Email Forum - -= Use t he Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:35 PM PST US From: "flylightning" Subject: Lightning-List: Elevator Balance modification. To group, We have just completed flight testing on a modification to the elevator balance. With the development of the SLSA Lightning and the mission of the aircraft changing slightly, a need to make a change to the pitch force required was noted. With the standard wing the roll to pitch force was well harmonized at maneuvering speed and below. With the addition of the long wing tips the roll forces increased but the pitch stayed the same. This resulted in a some what unbalanced feel on the stick. There are two options, lighten the ailerons, or heavy up the pitch. While the first seems the better to get a nice light stick, the over all the mission of the aircraft with the long wing tip is going to be Light sport. So with this in mind and the typical pilot than being a newer light sport pilot or those who have not flown for a while due to a medical or other issue, the thought of making the pitch heavier to harmonize the controls was the better option. We have removed the aerodynamic balance from the elevator completely. The resulting change has increased the stick pull required by a good amount. In our 2008demo the stick force required with the balance to accelerate 1g was 2.5lbs, this is measured with a digital scale on the stick in flight and not a guess. With the balance removed the stick pull required in the same situation was 4.75lbs. This with the longer wing now provides a good feel between both roll and pitch, and I feel this is better for most pilots. An additional side benefit is the elimination of the "soft" spot in the center of pitch, anyone with enough time in a lightning has most likely noticed a small spot in the middle 1" of throw on the stick were its kinda dead, so that's gone. This is not to say with a short wing that the pitch would too be heavy if one made the modification as well, I think that it would still have good stick feel. I have updated the builders manual online to incorporate this change, it is in section #19 on balance modification. Those of you asking if the roll can be lighten up to match the light pitch feel with the balances, well still working on that but should have a solution in due time. Thanks for reading my book. Nick Otterback Arion Aircraft, LLC ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Lightning-List: N82PB taxi and first take off video From: n5pb@AOL.COM Mark, thanks so much for putting this out on you tube.? It sent chills down my spine....thanks to the entire team! Bear -----Original Message----- From: Mark Stauffer Sent: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:54 pm Subject: Lightning-List: N82PB taxi and first take off video Here are the links to YouTube of Paul Bryant's Lightning taxi and first flight. First landing is coming shortly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1q5lAW1NqA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63XLc5qUZmI Please, no comments on the quality of video. I'm much better at building planes than I am of filming them!! (Thank goodness!!) Have a great day! Mark Mark Stauffer Production Manager Arion Aircraft 2842 Hwy 231 North Shelbyville, TN 37160 (931) 680-1781 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:32 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Elevator Balance modification. Nick=2C Ah man=2C I liked being able to fly with one finger on top of the stick and still be able to manuever. Seriously though I think this will be a goo d thing for the general aviation community=2C especially those with low tim e or more standard aircraft time. Good job and good thinking. Another exa mple of how Arion continues to make improvements to the product in order to make the plane safer=2C easier=2C and more enjoyable to fly! Brian W. From: info@flylightning.netTo: lightning-list@matronics.comSubject: Lightni ng-List: Elevator Balance modification.Date: Fri=2C 14 Nov 2008 16:19:12 -0 600 To group=2C We have just completed flight testing on a modification to the elevator bal ance. With the development of the SLSA Lightning and the mission of the air craft changing slightly=2C a need to make a change to the pitch force requi red was noted. With the standard wing the roll to pitch force was well harm onized at maneuvering speed and below. With the addition of the long wing t ips the roll forces increased but the pitch stayed the same. This resulted in a some what unbalanced feel on the stick. There are two options=2C light en the ailerons=2C or heavy up the pitch. While the first seems the better to get a nice light stick=2C the over all the mission of the aircraft with the long wing tip is going to be Light sport. So with this in mind and the typical pilot than being a newer light sport pilot or those who have not fl own for a while due to a medical or other issue=2C the thought of making th e pitch heavier to harmonize the controls was the better option. We have re moved the aerodynamic balance from the elevator completely. The resulting c hange has increased the stick pull required by a good amount. In our 2008de mo the stick force required with the balance to accelerate 1g was 2.5lbs=2C this is measured with a digital scale on the stick in flight and not a gue ss. With the balance removed the stick pull required in the same situation was 4.75lbs. This with the longer wing now provides a good feel between bot h roll and pitch=2C and I feel this is better for most pilots. An additiona l side benefit is the elimination of the =93soft=94 spot in the center of p itch=2C anyone with enough time in a lightning has most likely noticed a sm all spot in the middle 1=94 of throw on the stick were its kinda dead=2C so that=92s gone. This is not to say with a short wing that the pitch would t oo be heavy if one made the modification as well=2C I think that it would s till have good stick feel. I have updated the builders manual online to inc orporate this change=2C it is in section #19 on balance modification. Those of you asking if the roll can be lighten up to match the light pitch feel with the balances=2C well still working on that but should have a solution in due time. Thanks for reading my book. Nick Otterback Arion Aircraft=2C LLC _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows Live ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:53 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: IVO first flight Doug=2C Are there any pics of the IVO on the Lightning. Also=2C when converting an IVO to a two blader=2C do you use the same blades: profile=2C pitch=2C a nd chord? Brian W. From: Kayberg@aol.comDate: Fri=2C 14 Nov 2008 10:03:07 -0500Subject: Re: Li ghtning-List: IVO first flightTo: lightning-list@matronics.com Sorry=2C but I gotta be a little fuzzy on the details. It was just two sho rt flights by two different people. The airspeed had just been changed bec ause it "indicated a little low" but the new one "indicates a little high" . The speed runs were in level flight but the optimum prop settings had n ot be reached. 175 mph is perhaps the fastest this airframe had gone...and it has had a couple of Sensnich props on it before. Altitude for the run s was about 1500 feet. It was a cool day=2C so probably close to sea leve l. The pitch adjust worked fine. When you lowered the nose after the climbout =2C the rpms went past 3300 easily and the pitch adjust dropped it to ???? . Tweeking is needed because it would not turn more than 2350 static. Th e owner is looking for more thrust on takeoff and more speed at the top. T he consensus of the test pilots was=2C "that is the fastest that airplane h as ever gone" ...both the level passes and the obligitory dive to high sp eed down the runway were fast. I dont know the cost of the IVO=2C since that was not in my department=2C b ut it is close to the cost of the ground adjust Senny. More than a fixed p itch=2C but not by a lot. the other thing was cooling. Even with no spinner (fitting one will be a b itch) it ran cooler than usual. Of course it was a cool day=2C but coolin g seemed better. The IVO has good pitch to the blades close to the air inl ets. Again=2C I would caution those out there in radio land to wait until more t esting is done. And dont plan on it being real scientific. In my mind=2C we need to see how the prop stands the pulses. However=2C the consensus was that this is the smoothest prop yet=2C so it cant all be bad. the IVO needs to be retorqued ever hour or so during the first 10 hours of running . The blades "settle in" to the grip on the hub plates and it is very impo rtant that those not get loose. There is some plan afoot to remove one blade and try it as a two blade (eas ily done with an IVO) Keep in mind this project is assisted by the Green Landings technical staff =2C but not under their direct control. Doug In a message dated 11/13/2008 9:23:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time=2C N1BZRic h@aol.com writes: Doug=2C How about some clarification of what you mean by "a top of 175". Is th at MHP or Knots? And what is "low altitude"? And since you said low altit ude=2C I assume you are talking indicated airspeed. Are we talking wide op en throttle? And are we talking about a "pass down the runway" (I seem to remember you guys are about 500 AGL)? And if so=2C what was the rpm at WOT ? Were you able to adjust the pitch in flight to get the engine to be WOT at 3300 rpm? With the fixed pitch I am now using I can see just over 200 MPH (pullin g back the throttle to keep from going over 3300 rpm) on a high speed pass down the runway=2C but remember I am basically at sea level. At 5000'=2C (again pulling back the throttle to stay at 3300) it shows 185 to 187 MPH t rue. Also what is the going price for the in-flight adjustable IVO? Does it still have those narrow cord blades? How is the Cub project coming along? And remember=2C you are invited t o come here to fly my Cub. Blue Skies=2C Buz _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_fast er_112008 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:22 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Veteran's Day Thanks everybody=2C I've got to say that seeing the color guard present the flag to the wid ow on Veteran's Day was pretty emotional. We went to the Veteran's nursing home in Florence=2C CO the other day. It was named after Bruce McCandless =3B both the original and II. For those of you who may know=2C particularl y the 1st was a real American hero and the son was an astronaut and accompl ished pilot. Anyhow=2C in looking through some of his personal effects we found an old pilot's log book beside the bed where he passed away. I took pictures of all of the pages and in the near future will go through and rea d all the entries. One thing that I did notice and think is completely app licable to this forum is that from flight 1 was an entry of forced landings practice. Almost every line up until he was flying fighters contains the same. I know that back then they probably actually killed the engine=2C bu t the idea today is the same. Practice those turn-backs and land straight aheads. Brian W. From: N1BZRich@aol.comDate: Mon=2C 10 Nov 2008 15:22:07 -0500Subject: Re: L ightning-List: Veteran's DayTo: lightning-list@matronics.com Brian=2C Great thoughts and your wife's grandfather sounds like someone that we would all like to sit down with and hear some of his stories about the grea t aircraft he has flown. Since he flew fighters I will be sure to "throw a nickel on the grass" for him. Blue Skies=2C Buz AOL Search: Your one stop for directions=2C recipes and all other Holiday n eeds. Search Now. _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows=AE connects the people=2C information=2C and fun that are p art of your life ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:34 PM PST US From: EAFerguson@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Elevator Balance modification. In a message dated 11/14/2008 6:43:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dashvii@hotmail.com writes: To group, We have just completed flight testing on a modification to the elevator balance. With the development of the SLSA Lightning and the mission of the aircraft changing slightly, a need to make a change to the pitch force requ ired was noted. With the standard wing the roll to pitch force was well harmonized a t maneuvering speed and below. With the addition of the long wing tips the roll forces increased but the pitch stayed the same. This resulted in a som e what unbalanced feel on the stick. There are two options, lighten the ailer ons, or heavy up the pitch. While the first seems the better to get a nice light stick, the over all the mission of the aircraft with the long wing tip is going to be Light sport. So with this in mind and the typical pilot than be ing a newer light sport pilot or those who have not flown for a while due to a medical or other issue, the thought of making the pitch heavier to harmoniz e the controls was the better option. We have removed the aerodynamic balance fro m the elevator completely. The resulting change has increased the stick pull required by a good amount. In our 2008demo the stick force required with th e balance to accelerate 1g was 2.5lbs, this is measured with a digital scale on the stick in flight and not a guess. With the balance removed the stick pul l required in the same situation was 4.75lbs. This with the longer wing now provides a good feel between both roll and pitch, and I feel this is better for most pilots. An additional side benefit is the elimination of the =9Csoft=9D spot in the center of pitch, anyone with enough time in a lightning has most likely noticed a small spot in the middle 1=9D of throw on the stick were its kinda dead, so that=99s gone. This is not to say with a short wing that the pitch would too be heavy if one made the modification as well, I think that it wo uld still have good stick feel. I have updated the builders manual online to incorporate this change, it is in section #19 on balance modification. Thos e of you asking if the roll can be lighten up to match the light pitch feel with the balances, well still working on that but should have a solution in due time. Thanks for reading my book. Nick Otterback Arion Aircraft, LLC Nick, I like the light control forces, and don't think they are a problem for low time pilots. Certainly not for wrinkles like me who have lost medicals. So I have two other suggestions. The obvious one (but a major mod) is to lengthen the main wing and move the aileron out, then shorten the tip but include the winglet. This keeps the same wing area, but provides a little more aileron control. A clean solutio n, but a major re-tooling. The other suggestion is less obvious, but easier. Reduce the wing tip lengt h keeping the winglets. To keep the Light Sport stall speed, use the VG's on the outboard wing to provide better stall characteristics (the inner wing w ill stall first). My guess is that VGs in front of the ailerons would be all yo u would need. The VG's they do reduce the stall speed and so do the winglets. The only objection to the VGs in that configuration would be minor inconvenience when washing the bird. The combination should work and keep the light roll contr ol force. I had to reduce stall speed by 2 knots from the clean wing on mine f or Light Sport, and the full wing VGs did exactly that. I've since taken off t he inner 4 on each side with no measurable change in stall speed, but a slight improvement in stall warning. We could test this suggested mod on my LS Lightning (hint, hint). BTW, To me the increased roll control force is more of a distraction than the lack of harmonizing (matching) the pitch and roll forces. I don't think I will like the increased pitch effort. As you know, I kept some bungees on m y pitch control with the new trim tab. With the right amount of bungee the st ick balances nicely on the ground, and reduces required up trim in flight. Soft spot in the center of pitch? Not a problem in my Lightning. Maybe I'm numb, but I haven't noticed this effect in 250 hours. If it's there it certainly isn't objectionable. My 2c worth. Earl Ferguson **************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & r=htt p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:56 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: IVO first flight From: "selwyn" "If you have some kind of prop strike, the IVO easily disintegrates, usually saving the engine crankshaft. Supposedly it is good for up to 150 hp and 250 mph. We shall see." Hmmm. Not sure if I like a prop that easily disintegrates as that would imply that the margins are rather fine and perhaps more likely to shed a blade in "normal" circumstances. I think I would prefer some additional protection against that instead of the possibility that I may prevent crank damage if I was silly enough to run my prop into something hard. If anyone is interested in more info I've compiled a list of links to prop makers, including IVO, here: http://www.recreationalflying.com.au/links/propellers-4/ -------- Cheers, Selwyn Kit 66 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214329#214329 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.