---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/21/08: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:00 AM - Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price (AVN100@aol.com) 2. 03:30 AM - Re: Behind By 21% - Advertising May Be Needed...? (James, Clive R) 3. 07:05 AM - Re: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price (Pete Krotje) 4. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price (John Davis) 5. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price (Jim Langley) 6. 05:07 PM - Props and selection (Tex Mantell) 7. 05:41 PM - Re: Props and selection (N1BZRich@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:00:16 AM PST US From: AVN100@aol.com Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price I have been on a dozen Yahoo aviation groups forever without any discernible spam consequences. For a non-geek, they are incredibly flexible and easy to use (including their photo and database links) compared to the steam engine experience my untutored participation here has been. If you are intense about security, you can add a personal seal graphic. Of course, Yahoo moderators vary in their policing and nourishing behavior. "Sportcruiser" is UK based (mostly kit builders) with active worldwide membership (mostly US and Mediterranean RTF) and has been 100% laissez-faire even when fraudulent sales practices by CZAW had members cursing and libeling aplenty. Now that kits are finally trickling in to England two to three years late and an incredibly skilled and generous (with his time for others) builder is about to flight test his personal and thusfar unique Jabiru version, quite wonderful builder support has broken out! The younger "USsportcruiser" group by contrast is run by a pleasant but control freak moderator and features frequent contributions from a company shill (US dealer) thus generating a mere fraction of UK traffic and requiring a lot of reading between lines. Still worthwhile for owners and not as bad as the totally company-captive first US sportcruiser group laughed into obscurity nor as good as the second US group which disappeared when its founder and moderator got so fed up with the problems and missing features of his two-year-late RTF aircraft that lack of warranty support was the last straw and after making CZAW take it back, he closed the site. Again, SC is a handsome, comfortable (may be the widest SP cabin), easy to fly aircraft with many happy owners. And some very unhappy buyers as well. The US version of the Sportcruiser is primarily hobbled by its hangar queen Rotax powerplant and still a real financial and product support gamble. This last due to CZAW's record of marketing duplicity, ongoing near-bankruptcy struggle with dissident investors, and the apparent switch in emphasis of its principal US importer and assembler away from SC to the Aerospool Dynamic line while attempting to resurrect the Czech-abandoned but promising Mermaid SP amphibian as a US-built aircraft. A non-marque group, "Sport_Aircraft" is eight years old with two thousand members and was another locus for fierce, profane, and endlessly entertaining battles at the outset. The fat-UL cowboys waged a desperate and doomed war against the up and coming "safety-first" LSA crowd which ultimately won out. I'm also in Citabria and Luscombe and Hybrid and other Yahoo groups I can endorse...approaching a decade of trouble free communication. As I get closer to losing some weight and putting my money where my mouth is = into a Lightning for its using the Jabiru engine, structural integrity (isn't Lightning Vne 50% higher than SC?) and company integrity (factory actually cares and answers questions candidly), I selfishly recommend switching this forum to a Yahoo group. **************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com %26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:30:22 AM PST US Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Behind By 21% - Advertising May Be Needed...? From: "James, Clive R" I don't get spam on the two Yahoo lists I am registered with. There was a couple of friendly ladies on the Jab engines list once but haven't seen them lately. I get the daily list which allows you to read what you want and ignore what you don't want to read. As regards to paying toward the running of the Matronics set up I gave a nominal $5 dollars to stop Matt's begging letters, that didn't work as he's now bleating that he's 20% down on last year. I'm sure if everyone gave him a few dollars he would cover his costs fine. The suggestion that the starting point is $20 will I think have put a lot of folk off. With regard to adverts, I am blind to adverts, they appear everywhere and I assume pay for everything that I use that is free. That is fine by me. When a page of rubbish comes up I read the bit I want and ignore the rest. I am highly skilled at it and it bothers me not a jot! A few posters have recommended moving back to Yahoo, I don't mind where the exchange of info takes place but see little point in paying $20 to have your E mail address made available to everyone which appears to be the case and maybe explain why I'm getting a steady stream of spam more lately. Thanks for pointing that out 'AVN'. I am very careful of which E mail address I use where and as I keep this one fairly exclusive the easy access to view it means I will have to change that now. Take a look at http://www.jabiru.flyer.co.uk/ this site is run by a guy who spends only his time on it. He is by the way a star as he's run it for years and takes nothing for it, he makes some accessories which you can find on the site so I suppose there is that but then Matronics do the same. The space and the message board are all free, there is the odd advert but they are unobtrusive and no ones E mail address is on show unless they want it to be. So I won't be giving Matt any more that the $5 he's got. BTW Matt's FAQ arrive every few weeks so it's not just the begging letters I'm on about being spamlike. It's good to talk....:-) Regards, Clive -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Krotje Sent: 20 November 2008 15:04 Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Behind By 21% - Advertising May Be Needed...? --> Clive, What you do not get from Matt and his lists is the hundreds of spam messages that come from the Yahoogroups lists. Add to that the extra convenience of the search and archive functions and we have a much better deal than the "free" yahoogroups lists. To put up with a few messages in November seems a small price. Maybe you should send 15 bucks and you'd feel better about it. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James, Clive R Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 8:44 AM europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Behind By 21% - Advertising May Be Needed...? To be honest we get that much junk mail from Matt maybe it would be better if we had the odd aviation advert? Maybe that would shut him up. He can send me my 5 bucks back then.....:-) Regards, Clive -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle Sent: 20 November 2008 08:25 Subject: Lightning-List: Behind By 21% - Advertising May Be Needed...? Dear Listers, The percentage of people making a Contribution to support the Lists this year is currently lagging behind last year by approximately 21%! I'm hoping that everyone is just waiting until the last minute to show their support... ;-) Please remember that it is solely your direct Contributions that keep these Lists up and running and most importantly - AD FREE! If the members don't want to support the Lists directly, then I will likely have to start adding advertisements to offset the costs of running the Lists. But I *really* don't want to have to start doing that. I really like the non-commercial atmosphere here and I think that a lot of the members appreciate that too. Please take a moment to make a Contribution today in support of the continued ad-free operation of all these Lists: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I want to send out a word of appreciation to all of the members that have already made their generous Contribution to support the Lists! Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:04 AM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price Why do you use a large bold type? Are you shouting at us? Do you think we are so poor of eyesight that we can't get your message without extra emphasis? Let me make my final post on this topic of spam and the list. I am a member of five yahoo groups. I use a specific email address for three of those groups. When I get spam (200 to 300 per day) 80 percent of that spam is addressed to the email address used for the yahoogroups. It seems to be very easy for spammers to get the yahoogroups email addresses - probably yahoo sells them to the spammers. Take away the yahoogroups email address that I use and I would have very little spam. As long as I continue to get all the yahoo spam I can assure you that Arion Aircraft will have no company involvement with a yahoo group. Customers and group members may do as they like. One more item - I really wish you would identify yourself with a name at the end of your post as nearly all of our members do. One thing that really bothers me about the internet is posters bashing a company as you do Sport Cruiser (whether deserved or not) but not willing to be accountable for their statements by a signature at the end. Pete Krotje Arion Aircraft, LLC 931-680-1781 www.flylightning.net From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AVN100@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 3:56 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price I have been on a dozen Yahoo aviation groups forever without any discernible spam consequences. For a non-geek, they are incredibly flexible and easy to use (including their photo and database links) compared to the steam engine experience my untutored participation here has been. If you are intense about security, you can add a personal seal graphic. Of course, Yahoo moderators vary in their policing and nourishing behavior. "Sportcruiser" is UK based (mostly kit builders) with active worldwide membership (mostly US and Mediterranean RTF) and has been 100% laissez-faire even when fraudulent sales practices by CZAW had members cursing and libeling aplenty. Now that kits are finally trickling in to England two to three years late and an incredibly skilled and generous (with his time for others) builder is about to flight test his personal and thusfar unique Jabiru version, quite wonderful builder support has broken out! The younger "USsportcruiser" group by contrast is run by a pleasant but control freak moderator and features frequent contributions from a company shill (US dealer) thus generating a mere fraction of UK traffic and requiring a lot of reading between lines. Still worthwhile for owners and not as bad as the totally company-captive first US sportcruiser group laughed into obscurity nor as good as the second US group which disappeared when its founder and moderator got so fed up with the problems and missing features of his two-year-late RTF aircraft that lack of warranty support was the last straw and after making CZAW take it back, he closed the site. Again, SC is a handsome, comfortable (may be the widest SP cabin), easy to fly aircraft with many happy owners. And some very unhappy buyers as well. The US version of the Sportcruiser is primarily hobbled by its hangar queen Rotax powerplant and still a real financial and product support gamble. This last due to CZAW's record of marketing duplicity, ongoing near-bankruptcy struggle with dissident investors, and the apparent switch in emphasis of its principal US importer and assembler away from SC to the Aerospool Dynamic line while attempting to resurrect the Czech-abandoned but promising Mermaid SP amphibian as a US-built aircraft. A non-marque group, "Sport_Aircraft" is eight years old with two thousand members and was another locus for fierce, profane, and endlessly entertaining battles at the outset. The fat-UL cowboys waged a desperate and doomed war against the up and coming "safety-first" LSA crowd which ultimately won out. I'm also in Citabria and Luscombe and Hybrid and other Yahoo groups I can endorse...approaching a decade of trouble free communication. As I get closer to losing some weight and putting my money where my mouth is = into a Lightning for its using the Jabiru engine, structural integrity (isn't Lightning Vne 50% higher than SC?) and company integrity (factory actually cares and answers questions candidly), I selfishly recommend switching this forum to a Yahoo group. _____ One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Tty%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001">AOL.com today! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:01 AM PST US From: "John Davis" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price Great post Pete. I answer posts like that but only to say that I will not answer them in the future with out a full name at the bottom John Davis Lightning N155LT _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Krotje Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 9:05 AM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price Why do you use a large bold type? Are you shouting at us? Do you think we are so poor of eyesight that we can't get your message without extra emphasis? Let me make my final post on this topic of spam and the list. I am a member of five yahoo groups. I use a specific email address for three of those groups. When I get spam (200 to 300 per day) 80 percent of that spam is addressed to the email address used for the yahoogroups. It seems to be very easy for spammers to get the yahoogroups email addresses - probably yahoo sells them to the spammers. Take away the yahoogroups email address that I use and I would have very little spam. As long as I continue to get all the yahoo spam I can assure you that Arion Aircraft will have no company involvement with a yahoo group. Customers and group members may do as they like. One more item - I really wish you would identify yourself with a name at the end of your post as nearly all of our members do. One thing that really bothers me about the internet is posters bashing a company as you do Sport Cruiser (whether deserved or not) but not willing to be accountable for their statements by a signature at the end. Pete Krotje Arion Aircraft, LLC 931-680-1781 www.flylightning.net From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AVN100@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 3:56 AM Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price I have been on a dozen Yahoo aviation groups forever without any discernible spam consequences. For a non-geek, they are incredibly flexible and easy to use (including their photo and database links) compared to the steam engine experience my untutored participation here has been. If you are intense about security, you can add a personal seal graphic. Of course, Yahoo moderators vary in their policing and nourishing behavior. "Sportcruiser" is UK based (mostly kit builders) with active worldwide membership (mostly US and Mediterranean RTF) and has been 100% laissez-faire even when fraudulent sales practices by CZAW had members cursing and libeling aplenty. Now that kits are finally trickling in to England two to three years late and an incredibly skilled and generous (with his time for others) builder is about to flight test his personal and thusfar unique Jabiru version, quite wonderful builder support has broken out! The younger "USsportcruiser" group by contrast is run by a pleasant but control freak moderator and features frequent contributions from a company shill (US dealer) thus generating a mere fraction of UK traffic and requiring a lot of reading between lines. Still worthwhile for owners and not as bad as the totally company-captive first US sportcruiser group laughed into obscurity nor as good as the second US group which disappeared when its founder and moderator got so fed up with the problems and missing features of his two-year-late RTF aircraft that lack of warranty support was the last straw and after making CZAW take it back, he closed the site. Again, SC is a handsome, comfortable (may be the widest SP cabin), easy to fly aircraft with many happy owners. And some very unhappy buyers as well. The US version of the Sportcruiser is primarily hobbled by its hangar queen Rotax powerplant and still a real financial and product support gamble. This last due to CZAW's record of marketing duplicity, ongoing near-bankruptcy struggle with dissident investors, and the apparent switch in emphasis of its principal US importer and assembler away from SC to the Aerospool Dynamic line while attempting to resurrect the Czech-abandoned but promising Mermaid SP amphibian as a US-built aircraft. A non-marque group, "Sport_Aircraft" is eight years old with two thousand members and was another locus for fierce, profane, and endlessly entertaining battles at the outset. The fat-UL cowboys waged a desperate and doomed war against the up and coming "safety-first" LSA crowd which ultimately won out. I'm also in Citabria and Luscombe and Hybrid and other Yahoo groups I can endorse...approaching a decade of trouble free communication. As I get closer to losing some weight and putting my money where my mouth is = into a Lightning for its using the Jabiru engine, structural integrity (isn't Lightning Vne 50% higher than SC?) and company integrity (factory actually cares and answers questions candidly), I selfishly recommend switching this forum to a Yahoo group. _____ One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Tty%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001">AOL.com today! http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:27 AM PST US From: "Jim Langley" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price No disrespect intended, but whar does the Sportcruiser, or discussion around Matt's requests for financial help have to do with the Lightning? My recommendation is to take the SC conversation to the SC yahoo group, and any comments about Matt's fundraising policy directly to Matt. he is very accessable... kind regards Jim! On 11/21/08, Pete Krotje wrote: > Why do you use a large bold type? Are you shouting at us? Do you think we > are so poor of eyesight that we can't get your message without extra > emphasis? > > > Let me make my final post on this topic of spam and the list. I am a member > of five yahoo groups. I use a specific email address for three of those > groups. When I get spam (200 to 300 per day) 80 percent of that spam is > addressed to the email address used for the yahoogroups. It seems to be > very easy for spammers to get the yahoogroups email addresses - probably > yahoo sells them to the spammers. Take away the yahoogroups email address > that I use and I would have very little spam. > > > As long as I continue to get all the yahoo spam I can assure you that Arion > Aircraft will have no company involvement with a yahoo group. Customers and > group members may do as they like. > > > One more item - I really wish you would identify yourself with a name at the > end of your post as nearly all of our members do. One thing that really > bothers me about the internet is posters bashing a company as you do Sport > Cruiser (whether deserved or not) but not willing to be accountable for > their statements by a signature at the end. > > > Pete Krotje > > Arion Aircraft, LLC > > 931-680-1781 > > www.flylightning.net > > > From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > AVN100@aol.com > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 3:56 AM > To: lightning-list@matronics.com > Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Yahoo twice as nice at any price > > > I have been on a dozen Yahoo aviation groups forever without any discernible > spam consequences. For a non-geek, they are incredibly flexible and easy > to use (including their photo and database links) compared to the steam > engine experience my untutored participation here has been. If you are > intense about security, you can add a personal seal graphic. > > > Of course, Yahoo moderators vary in their policing and nourishing behavior. > "Sportcruiser" is UK based (mostly kit builders) with active worldwide > membership (mostly US and Mediterranean RTF) and has been 100% laissez-faire > even when fraudulent sales practices by CZAW had members cursing and > libeling aplenty. Now that kits are finally trickling in to England two to > three years late and an incredibly skilled and generous (with his time for > others) builder is about to flight test his personal and thusfar unique > Jabiru version, quite wonderful builder support has broken out! > > > The younger "USsportcruiser" group by contrast is run by a pleasant but > control freak moderator and features frequent contributions from a company > shill (US dealer) thus generating a mere fraction of UK traffic and > requiring a lot of reading between lines. Still worthwhile for owners and > not as bad as the totally company-captive first US sportcruiser group > laughed into obscurity nor as good as the second US group which disappeared > when its founder and moderator got so fed up with the problems and missing > features of his two-year-late RTF aircraft that lack of warranty support was > the last straw and after making CZAW take it back, he closed the site. > Again, SC is a handsome, comfortable (may be the widest SP cabin), easy to > fly aircraft with many happy owners. And some very unhappy buyers as well. > > > The US version of the Sportcruiser is primarily hobbled by its hangar queen > Rotax powerplant and still a real financial and product support gamble. > This last due to CZAW's record of marketing duplicity, ongoing > near-bankruptcy struggle with dissident investors, and the apparent switch > in emphasis of its principal US importer and assembler away from SC to the > Aerospool Dynamic line while attempting to resurrect the Czech-abandoned but > promising Mermaid SP amphibian as a US-built aircraft. > > > A non-marque group, "Sport_Aircraft" is eight years old with two thousand > members and was another locus for fierce, profane, and endlessly > entertaining battles at the outset. The fat-UL cowboys waged a desperate > and doomed war against the up and coming "safety-first" LSA crowd which > ultimately won out. > > > I'm also in Citabria and Luscombe and Hybrid and other Yahoo groups I can > endorse...approaching a decade of trouble free communication. > > > As I get closer to losing some weight and putting my money where my mouth is > = into a Lightning for its using the Jabiru engine, structural integrity > (isn't Lightning Vne 50% higher than SC?) and company integrity (factory > actually cares and answers questions candidly), I selfishly recommend > switching this forum to a Yahoo group. > > > _____ > > One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the > things you love. Tty%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001">AOL.com today! > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:36 PM PST US From: "Tex Mantell" Subject: Lightning-List: Props and selection Nick or Buz, can probably answer this one. I am about to start thinking about a prop, and know Buz has had a few different props on his plane. I am wondering about the ground adjustable or maybe a straight wood prop. There has been many comments about props on the net and was hoping that more info was available. The Warp prop is out after I see Doug back stepping on his comments on performance. Also voids the warrantee. Now that there is enough planes flying I was hoping more info available. Nick, what is the present recommendation from Arion? I know each plane will be slightly different and which engine one has( solid lifters or not). I feel that a nice cruse prop is the way I would like to go , for the plane will get off the grass fast enough with any prop. What is the lead time on ordering a prop? Tex ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:49 PM PST US From: N1BZRich@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Props and selection Tex, I can't remember if you are building to light sport standards and whether you have solid lifters or hydraulic. Buz **************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. 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