---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/14/09: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:34 AM - FW: Aircraft ID - Help us out here richard, what is it? (James, Clive R) 2. 11:34 AM - Re: turbulant landing (James, Clive R) 3. 04:50 PM - Re: turbulant landing (GARY PENNINGTON) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:39 AM PST US Subject: FW: Lightning-List: Aircraft ID - Help us out here richard, what is it? From: "James, Clive R" There you go! Bit late though I see someone got there first, CJ ________________________________ From: Philip Snowden [mailto:phil_snowden@hotmail.com] Sent: 13 January 2009 14:26 Subject: FW: Lightning-List: Aircraft ID - Help us out here richard, what is it? ________________________________ From: Richard.Peck@marshallaerospace.com Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Aircraft ID - Help us out here richard, what is it? It is a Beech 1900D. It is about a 15 seat commuter aircraft. Seating is 1 - 1 so at least you get an aisle and window seat. Richard ________________________________ From: Philip Snowden [mailto:phil_snowden@hotmail.com] Sent: 13 January 2009 08:20 Subject: FW: Lightning-List: Aircraft ID - Help us out here richard, what is it? Help us out here richard, what is it? Phil ________________________________ Subject: FW: Lightning-List: Aircraft ID From: clive.james@uk.bp.com You know what this is? ________________________________ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Patterson Sent: 12 January 2009 08:31 Subject: Lightning-List: Aircraft ID My brother-in-law (a San Diego lad) took this picture in Malawi yesterday. It is the aircraft the company is considering as their new corporate ride. My reference books are out of date so were no use to me in identifying it for him. Any ideas???? Cheers from Perth Australia Wayne P (Kit #65) ________________________________ Are you a PC? Upload your PC story and show the world Click Here! Marshall of Cambridge Aerospace Ltd Registered Office: Airport House, The Airport, Cambridge, CB5 8RX, England Registered in England. Number 245740 This e-mail is in confidence and may also be privileged. You should not copy or disclose its contents to any other person. If you are not the intended recipient please delete this e-mail immediately. This message has been checked for viruses by MessageLabs. ________________________________ Are you a PC? Upload your PC story and show the world Click Here! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:39 AM PST US Subject: RE: Lightning-List: turbulant landing From: "James, Clive R" Gary, sounds like an exciting ride! My only thought, not knowing the topography was would there have been somewhere else to go that wouldn't have been so turbulent?. I've just been surfing Google Earth and maps and it seems to be a fairly hilly area so that probably wasn't an option for you. I've only once been caught as you describe. Returning from France to my home field in the East of England we'd been flying for two hours and knew there was a storm front moving SE towards our destination. I was monitoring the ATIS at my local municipal (west of destination) and there was a steady 8 knots blowing all the while we moved up from the Channel towards home. When we were 30 miles out it started to get a little bumpy and then the ATIS swiftly changed to 20 gusting 40 or somesuch. We turned back to the last airfield we'd flown over to sit it out only to find I could get anywhere near the ground in enough control to land. Only solution was to move further away from the weather and out run it. 15 miles further east is was still a little windy but the gusting was much reduced and we managed it OK despite a hefty crosswind. The wife had asked after two approaches to the gusty runway, what do we do now? I confidently said 'we've enough fuel to get back to France' to put her at ease and make me feel better, hoping that we could get away from the front far enough to some smooth air. I was lucky as it was the case. Also a point to add is the biggest hill in Norfolk UK is 280 feet! We ate our lunch and flew home 2 hours later in a still air. As was said before, a slap from Mother nature isn't so pleasant! Another I learned about flying from that..... Thanks for sharing yours. Regards, Clive -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY PENNINGTON Sent: 12 January 2009 13:57 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: turbulant landing Good morning Brian Thank you for responding. I am headed out to the airport this morning to practice various scenarios and will try your recommendations. Thanks again and have a great day. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Whittingham To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: turbulant landing Gary, In the situation that you described I would normally use no flaps. It's really important if you have gusty conditions. I would then add speed to compensate for my lack of flaps, and add half the gust factor more. (if you have 15 Gusting 25, then add 10 knots of airspeed) I hear what some have said about floating and such and now you're adding airspeed. The flaps out on a really gusty day are going to make things ten times harder though. If you practice and plan your no flap landings the Lightning will do it just fine. Even with the extra speed you could very easily get down and stopped on a 4,000 foot long runway without upping the pucker factor too much. A few stories that I will pass on about interesting landings: Flying out of Embry-Riddle in Daytona Beach was always an interesting thing. With about 2,500 training flights a day it was one of the busiest airports in the world. It reminds me of flying out of Atlanta with 20 people on extended final flying parallel approaches into the parallel runways. We often had controllers squeeze us in between aircraft on final and shuffle us around based on how far the other aircraft were in front of us. One particular time I turned final in a Cessna 172S and we had a turbo Seneca twin in front. He was trying to speed up the Seneca that was barely in the air. He asked me to give him best forward speed. I went right to 129 knots forward speed and to my amazement our ground speed was 165 knots! The controller thanked me and asked me to slow when I closed up that gap, but also wanted to know what kind of Cessna 172 would do a 190 MPH! I know what you're thinking, why was he landing with a tailwind, but if you live on the coast in Florida you know that the winds 20 miles out, such as where final started can be completely different than the coast where you typically get a sea breeze. Another time I was in a Cessna and the guy in front of us was lingering in the air. We were on instrument approach and had been on a long night flight. We were completely visual at this point and shooting the approach for practice. Well, the controller came on and asked if we could go visual and start a climb same heading and he'd bring us back around to the FAF. I started my climb and intentionally tried to maintain the least ground speed as possible. We got about 2,000 feet down the runway and were at 1,500 feet when the controller said, "if you can get it down you're cleared to land." I told him we could if he could grant us a long landing, which he did. (10.5k long runway) I chopped the power to idle, slowed the aircraft down, and put it in a severe side slip until just before landing. We made the midfield taxiway easily. My worst time trying to get a plane on the ground was probably again, in a Cessna, when I was a Jr. in High School. It can be extremely windy, and gusty in the plains part of Arkansas where I grew up. This happens even more during winter as far as frequency, although we have recorded 100+ MPH straight line winds on multiple occassions ahead of a storm front. I took off, just fine, flew around a while, and coming back in for landing I noticed that I was hauling on downwind and it was bumpy. Turning final I was going up and down. I went around and tried again. This time, no flaps, forward speed up a little. We had winds gusting from 25-45 which was causing some great discomfort on the part of the pilot. The winds weren't straight aligned with the runway either. I got it down fine, but that was a very uncomfortable experience for a young pilot. My final story is one with a Lightning. I had been flying for several hours and saw a storm coming. I wanted to get as much time as possible in that day so I stayed up. I looked again in about 10 minutes and it was coming a lot faster than I thought. I headed towards the airport as this gust front was approaching. I entered downwind and listened to the ASOS. This was a gust front approaching and it was starting to get really rough aand the sky was turning black. I turned final and I could tell that the winds were switching on me, but I could also see lightning and start to see rain. I wanted to get down on this go if at all possible. I landed with about a 20 knot tailwind and got back to the hangar just as it started to pour. I believe that if you had your engine stop and then didn't stick the landing then you can be fine. If you want to know how, go out and get your tailwheel endorsement. Brian W. ________________________________ From: pennington@q.com To: lightning-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: turbulant landing Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 06:07:29 -0700 Good morning Buz Thanks for your response. When I lifted off, winds were North at five, clear blue skies. While aloft, I was too busy trying to hold my plane in the air and upright to notice the winds shown on the EFIS. At the moment I experienced the extremely turbulent updrafts, I was abeam the numbers. That is also the time I begin to drop flaps and reduce throttle for my descent. I'm thinking that with the updrafts and flaps deployed, the lift was just too great to allow a descent. Hence, on my third attempt with no flaps, no power and pushing the nose over, I was able to descend. Mother Nature is a powerful force and she is still in charge. I was at Marana Regional Airport. Have a great day. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: N1BZRich@aol.com To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:32 PM Subject: Lightning-List: turbulant landing Gary, What were the actual winds? Degrees off the runway, variable heading, gust factor, etc. Which airport in Tucson were you using? Hey, overall you did a good job. You knew to go around when things didn't look good and you finally got it down safely. Who cares what it looked like it nothing got bent. Buz ________________________________ New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines . title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Windows Live(tm): Keep your life in sync. Check it out. title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:07 PM PST US From: "GARY PENNINGTON" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: turbulant landing Hello Clive It was good to hear from you and thanks for sharing with me. I hope your day is great. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: James, Clive R To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: turbulant landing > Gary, sounds like an exciting ride! My only thought, not knowing the topography was would there have been somewhere else to go that wouldn't have been so turbulent?. I've just been surfing Google Earth and maps and it seems to be a fairly hilly area so that probably wasn't an option for you. I've only once been caught as you describe. Returning from France to my home field in the East of England we'd been flying for two hours and knew there was a storm front moving SE towards our destination. I was monitoring the ATIS at my local municipal (west of destination) and there was a steady 8 knots blowing all the while we moved up from the Channel towards home. When we were 30 miles out it started to get a little bumpy and then the ATIS swiftly changed to 20 gusting 40 or somesuch. We turned back to the last airfield we'd flown over to sit it out only to find I could get anywhere near the ground in enough control to land. Only solution was to move further away from the weather and out run it. 15 miles further east is was still a little windy but the gusting was much reduced and we managed it OK despite a hefty crosswind. The wife had asked after two approaches to the gusty runway, what do we do now? I confidently said 'we've enough fuel to get back to France' to put her at ease and make me feel better, hoping that we could get away from the front far enough to some smooth air. I was lucky as it was the case. Also a point to add is the biggest hill in Norfolk UK is 280 feet! We ate our lunch and flew home 2 hours later in a still air. As was said before, a slap from Mother nature isn't so pleasant! Another I learned about flying from that..... Thanks for sharing yours. Regards, Clive -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY PENNINGTON Sent: 12 January 2009 13:57 To: lightning-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: turbulant landing Good morning Brian Thank you for responding. I am headed out to the airport this morning to practice various scenarios and will try your recommendations. Thanks again and have a great day. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Whittingham > To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 1:53 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: turbulant landing Gary, In the situation that you described I would normally use no flaps. It's really important if you have gusty conditions. I would then add speed to compensate for my lack of flaps, and add half the gust factor more. (if you have 15 Gusting 25, then add 10 knots of airspeed) I hear what some have said about floating and such and now you're adding airspeed. The flaps out on a really gusty day are going to make things ten times harder though. If you practice and plan your no flap landings the Lightning will do it just fine. Even with the extra speed you could very easily get down and stopped on a 4,000 foot long runway without upping the pucker factor too much. A few stories that I will pass on about interesting landings: Flying out of Embry-Riddle in Daytona Beach was always an interesting thing. With about 2,500 training flights a day it was one of the busiest airports in the world. It reminds me of flying out of Atlanta with 20 people on extended final flying parallel approaches into the parallel runways. We often had controllers squeeze us in between aircraft on final and shuffle us around based on how far the other aircraft were in front of us. One particular time I turned final in a Cessna 172S and we had a turbo Seneca twin in front. He was trying to speed up the Seneca that was barely in the air. He asked me to give him best forward speed. I went right to 129 knots forward speed and to my amazement our ground speed was 165 knots! The controller thanked me and asked me to slow when I closed up that gap, but also wanted to know what kind of Cessna 172 would do a 190 MPH! I know what you're thinking, why was he landing with a tailwind, but if you live on the coast in Florida you know that the winds 20 miles out, such as where final started can be completely different than the coast where you typically get a sea breeze. Another time I was in a Cessna and the guy in front of us was lingering in the air. We were on instrument approach and had been on a long night flight. We were completely visual at this point and shooting the approach for practice. Well, the controller came on and asked if we could go visual and start a climb same heading and he'd bring us back around to the FAF. I started my climb and intentionally tried to maintain the least ground speed as possible. We got about 2,000 feet down the runway and were at 1,500 feet when the controller said, "if you can get it down you're cleared to land." I told him we could if he could grant us a long landing, which he did. (10.5k long runway) I chopped the power to idle, slowed the aircraft down, and put it in a severe side slip until just before landing. We made the midfield taxiway easily. My worst time trying to get a plane on the ground was probably again, in a Cessna, when I was a Jr. in High School. It can be extremely windy, and gusty in the plains part of Arkansas where I grew up. This happens even more during winter as far as frequency, although we have recorded 100+ MPH straight line winds on multiple occassions ahead of a storm front. I took off, just fine, flew around a while, and coming back in for landing I noticed that I was hauling on downwind and it was bumpy. Turning final I was going up and down. I went around and tried again. This time, no flaps, forward speed up a little. We had winds gusting from 25-45 which was causing some great discomfort on the part of the pilot. The winds weren't straight aligned with the runway either. I got it down fine, but that was a very uncomfortable experience for a young pilot. My final story is one with a Lightning. I had been flying for several hours and saw a storm coming. I wanted to get as much time as possible in that day so I stayed up. I looked again in about 10 minutes and it was coming a lot faster than I thought. I headed towards the airport as this gust front was approaching. I entered downwind and listened to the ASOS. This was a gust front approaching and it was starting to get really rough aand the sky was turning black. I turned final and I could tell that the winds were switching on me, but I could also see lightning and start to see rain. I wanted to get down on this go if at all possible. I landed with about a 20 knot tailwind and got back to the hangar just as it started to pour. I believe that if you had your engine stop and then didn't stick the landing then you can be fine. If you want to know how, go out and get your tailwheel endorsement. Brian W. ________________________________ From: pennington@q.com To: lightning-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: turbulant landing Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 06:07:29 -0700 Good morning Buz Thanks for your response. When I lifted off, winds were North at five, clear blue skies. While aloft, I was too busy trying to hold my plane in the air and upright to notice the winds shown on the EFIS. At the moment I experienced the extremely turbulent updrafts, I was abeam the numbers. That is also the time I begin to drop flaps and reduce throttle for my descent. I'm thinking that with the updrafts and flaps deployed, the lift was just too great to allow a descent. Hence, on my third attempt with no flaps, no power and pushing the nose over, I was able to descend. Mother Nature is a powerful force and she is still in charge. I was at Marana Regional Airport. Have a great day. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: N1BZRich@aol.com To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:32 PM Subject: Lightning-List: turbulant landing Gary, What were the actual winds? Degrees off the runway, variable heading, gust factor, etc. Which airport in Tucson were you using? Hey, overall you did a good job. You knew to go around when things didn't look good and you finally got it down safely. Who cares what it looked like it nothing got bent. Buz ________________________________ New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines > . title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.mat rhttp://www.matr> onics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Windows Live(tm): Keep your life in sync. 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