---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/19/09: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:48 AM - Re: Lightning competition (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 2. 06:11 AM - Re: Cold Weather Starting (flylightning) 3. 07:55 AM - Re: Cold Weather Starting (James, Clive R) 4. 08:23 AM - Re: Cold Weather Starting (Jim Langley) 5. 08:42 AM - Re: Training (Hollis Babb) 6. 09:05 AM - Re: Training (Hollis Babb) 7. 05:28 PM - Re: Icy Cold? (Wayne Patterson) 8. 10:51 PM - Re: Icy Cold? (James, Clive R) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:59 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning competition Is is April 1st already? Usually about the time of Sun n Fun the latest radical designs show up. This one is a bit amusing. Despite being a taildragger, it has no elevator...a la Dyke Delta? But wait, the Dyke is a tri gear. Should be hell to flair. Also would be a long hard runway bird. 550 lbs empty. Even Burt Rutan had trouble trying to get the VariEZY to that weight. Not to mention that it is a wet lay-up bird. And on 20 less horsepower it is going to fly faster than a Lightning. And of course it is not built yet. Thanks for the post, I appreciated a little amusement. Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 1/18/2009 4:49:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mcpc@wp.pl writes: --> Lightning-List message posted by: "rimorbod" There will be an interesting design with incredible performance: http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/E2B.htm Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225521#225521 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:30 AM PST US From: "flylightning" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Cold Weather Starting If you have a good warm idle set of around 800 to work form than you know your throttle plate will be in the correct position at idle. Your idle mixture should be about 1 =BC turns out in the cold and a coil cap of 0.010=85it is possible that it is a bigger gap and will start when warm but not really cold. Also if you have read the service bulletin from jabiru to move the engine ground strap to the long AN3 starter bolt than this should be accomplished too, adds a good deal of revs to the starter. With the throttle closed and the choke completely on pull 6-10 blades thru and than get back in she should start. This used to work all the time in WI it pretty cold there. nick _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kayberg@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Cold Weather Starting Ryan raises the issue of cold weather starting after a lengthy struggle to get a Lightning going that had been flown into a distant strip in the morning, then refused to start in the afternoon. Of course he knows how to do a preheat......if you have electricity available. Tanis heater, 60 watt bulb, hair dryer, forced air kerosene heater may all work, but you need some sparks. What if you dont have electric? What can you carry with you in a Lightning that will heat both the oil and hopefully the battery enough to spin it and start? It doesn't have to be below zero for a Jab to be hard to start. Doug In a message dated 1/16/2009 9:08:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ryan@greenlandings.com writes: Everyone seems to want to talk about the cold where we are experiencing in the US. We are located in the mid Atlantic area and right now outside temp are (08 F). Ok with that said, does anyone have a great idea how to start your engine when it has been sitting out on the ramp all day below freezing. Just looking to see if anyone has any bright ideas. Ryan Gross Green Landings Flight Center, Inc SkyRanger Aircraft Arion Lightning 304-754-6010 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Cold Weather Starting From: "James, Clive R" Further to Nick's tips. I think the starting mixture is one of the issues as I may have mentioned before. Not rich enough in some cases. I've been looking at the carb and how the starting carburettor works. The hand pulling of the prop will, I think, pull fuel through such that you can build up an amount in the induction to have a rich starting point when you go for a crank. Will take some trial and error for your plane and the conditions maybe. Don't go hell for leather. Just pull a few blades, wait then pull a few more , wait etc. The staring carburettor design allows a slug of fuel to build up after the flow restriction, you'll need the electric pump on to maintain the level in the bowl. The slug will be sucked out into the induction as you pull the blades. As you pause the slug in the partitioned part of the carb bowl will refill and can be sucked by the next couple of blades. The guys at my home field have now got up to 10 revolutions on a troublesome starter to get the thing rich enough to kick off. The extra hand propping seems to make the difference. I'd be interested in hearing if this works for anyone else, that is if the amount of hand propping that you usually do wasn't any good. Regards Clive -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flylightning Sent: 19 January 2009 14:10 Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Cold Weather Starting If you have a good warm idle set of around 800 to work form than you know your throttle plate will be in the correct position at idle. Your idle mixture should be about 1 turns out in the cold and a coil cap of 0.010...it is possible that it is a bigger gap and will start when warm but not really cold. Also if you have read the service bulletin from jabiru to move the engine ground strap to the long AN3 starter bolt than this should be accomplished too, adds a good deal of revs to the starter. With the throttle closed and the choke completely on pull 6-10 blades thru and than get back in she should start. This used to work all the time in WI it pretty cold there. nick ________________________________ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kayberg@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Cold Weather Starting Ryan raises the issue of cold weather starting after a lengthy struggle to get a Lightning going that had been flown into a distant strip in the morning, then refused to start in the afternoon. Of course he knows how to do a preheat......if you have electricity available. Tanis heater, 60 watt bulb, hair dryer, forced air kerosene heater may all work, but you need some sparks. What if you dont have electric? What can you carry with you in a Lightning that will heat both the oil and hopefully the battery enough to spin it and start? It doesn't have to be below zero for a Jab to be hard to start. Doug In a message dated 1/16/2009 9:08:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ryan@greenlandings.com writes: Everyone seems to want to talk about the cold where we are experiencing in the US. We are located in the mid Atlantic area and right now outside temp are (08 F). Ok with that said, does anyone have a great idea how to start your engine when it has been sitting out on the ramp all day below freezing. Just looking to see if anyone has any bright ideas. Ryan Gross Green Landings Flight Center, Inc SkyRanger Aircraft Arion Lightning 304-754-6010 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Cold Weather Starting From: Jim Langley Not coming from someone with a lot of Jabiru experience, but this sounds a lot like how I would start my large RC engines, (100-200cc), Choke and fli p five times. Choke and ignition on till the engine pops, then choke off and flip and viola! Engine running. In cold weather, we would leave the choke partially on till the engine started to show signs of running a little rich and then take it off. On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 10:54 AM, James, Clive R wro te: > clive.james@uk.bp.com> > > Further to Nick's tips. I think the starting mixture is one of the issues > as I may have mentioned before. Not rich enough in some cases. > > I've been looking at the carb and how the starting carburettor works. The > hand pulling of the prop will, I think, pull fuel through such that you c an > build up an amount in the induction to have a rich starting point when yo u > go for a crank. Will take some trial and error for your plane and the > conditions maybe. > Don't go hell for leather. Just pull a few blades, wait then pull a few > more , wait etc. > The staring carburettor design allows a slug of fuel to build up after th e > flow restriction, you'll need the electric pump on to maintain the level in > the bowl. The slug will be sucked out into the induction as you pull the > blades. As you pause the slug in the partitioned part of the carb bowl wi ll > refill and can be sucked by the next couple of blades. > > The guys at my home field have now got up to 10 revolutions on a > troublesome starter to get the thing rich enough to kick off. The extra h and > propping seems to make the difference. > > I'd be interested in hearing if this works for anyone else, that is if th e > amount of hand propping that you usually do wasn't any good. > > Regards Clive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flylightning > Sent: 19 January 2009 14:10 > To: lightning-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Cold Weather Starting > > If you have a good warm idle set of around 800 to work form than you know > your throttle plate will be in the correct position at idle. Your idle > mixture should be about 1 =BC turns out in the cold and a coil cap of > 0.010...it is possible that it is a bigger gap and will start when warm b ut > not really cold. Also if you have read the service bulletin from jabiru t o > move the engine ground strap to the long AN3 starter bolt than this shoul d > be accomplished too, adds a good deal of revs to the starter. With the > throttle closed and the choke completely on pull 6-10 blades thru and tha n > get back in she should start. This used to work all the time in WI it pre tty > cold there. > > > nick > > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kayberg@aol.com > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:57 PM > To: lightning-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Cold Weather Starting > > > Ryan raises the issue of cold weather starting after a lengthy struggle t o > get a Lightning going that had been flown into a distant strip in the > morning, then refused to start in the afternoon. > > > Of course he knows how to do a preheat......if you have electricity > available. Tanis heater, 60 watt bulb, hair dryer, forced air kerosene > heater may all work, but you need some sparks. > > > What if you dont have electric? What can you carry with you in a > Lightning that will heat both the oil and hopefully the battery enough to > spin it and start? It doesn't have to be below zero for a Jab to be hard to > start. > > > Doug > > > In a message dated 1/16/2009 9:08:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ryan@greenlandings.com writes: > > Everyone seems to want to talk about the cold where we are > experiencing in the US. We are located in the mid Atlantic area and right > now outside temp are (08 F). Ok with that said, does anyone have a great > idea how to start your engine when it has been sitting out on the ramp al l > day below freezing. Just looking to see if anyone has any bright ideas. > > > Ryan Gross > Green Landings Flight Center, Inc > SkyRanger Aircraft > Arion Lightning > 304-754-6010 > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:51 AM PST US From: "Hollis Babb" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Training Gary, Thanks to you and others that have responded to my question. I currently own an Interplane Skyboy. It is a bit easier to land, I'm sure, than the Lightning. It drops out of the air when you cut the throttle and it has trailing link suspension. Thanks again, Hollis _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY PENNINGTON Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:38 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Training Good evening Hollis I'll be happy to share my opinion with you. Of course, my opinion is based on my flight experiences in Light Sport airplanes, Cessna 172's, Piper Warriors and now, my Lightning. Other pilots will certainly have different opinions. I would first emphasize that no airplane is perfect for all applications. Heck, nothing in life is perfect...everything is a compromise. You didn't say what aircraft you have trained in, so, I'll assume it's a Cessna 172 or another typical "drag machine". That said, I would classify the Lightning as a performance airplane. It gains airspeed quickly and has little drag. The cruise speed is faster than the Cessna or Warrior. Because of that, you'll reach your destination much faster which means you'll have to plan farther ahead. The Lightning is a "slippery" airplane. It does not bleed off speed rapidly. As a result, when entering the pattern and preparing for landing, you must begin reducing airspeed much sooner than with your trainer. Take offs and landings are also quite different than a Cessna. I would not consider the Lightning a "Short Field Airplane". Although, with proper approach techniques, the landing rollout is respectable. Some Lightning owners even land their planes on grass or dirt. I installed the winglets on my Lightning. Mostly because I liked the way they look. But, I believe they benefit you during slow speeds and especially during stalls. The Lightning is a fast, good looking, cruiser. The seating is comfortable for two adults with adequate shoulder room.....as long as they are not big people. I would not say the Lightning is a "Trainer" airplane, but with proper training, you can easily fly it. I believe it is absolutely critical that you have thorough training in the Lightning before you solo. I now have about 65 hours on my Lightning and I am beginning to take longer trips. Short hops are also good. I hope this helps in your decision. Happy flying . Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Hollis Babb Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Training How does everyone feel about the Lightning (LSA Version--with winglets) using it as my trainer? I am a student pilot and want to make sure I don't buy something that is beyond my abilities, or will take me a long time to master. How does it handle at slow speed, landing and etc.? I think I just want to do local flying with an occasional cross country. I'm at a local non towered AP with a 3300 ft paved runway. I like the 3 week build assist program and also looking at ======================= http://www.matnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c==== =========== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:17 AM PST US From: "Hollis Babb" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Training Thanks Buz, Lots to think about. Appreciate the info. I'm going to be in Sebring this week to look around. Hollis _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Training In a message dated 1/18/2009 5:55:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sailor@mindspring.com writes: How does everyone feel about the Lightning (LSA Version--with winglets) using it as my trainer? Hello Hollis, Since you are already a student pilot, we can assume you can "multi task" (such as walking and chewing gum at the same time - just kidding here, well mostly just kidding), so you obviously have the basic skills and motivation to finish your pilot training. So based on that, to my way of thinking, your chances of success really will depend on your instructor, not you. The Lightning is an easy airplane to fly, but like all things that take training to develop the proper specific skills, you need to be taught by someone that has the background, experience, patience, and the right attitude to be a good instructor. Some instructors are great, some are just OK, but way too many are pretty weak. Weak in skills, weak in experience, weak in motivation, and weak in instructional techniques. In many cases, it really isn't their fault - as they were likely taught be others that just wanted to build flying time to move on to a better paying piloting job. So finding the right instructor is job # 1. After that, have that person get a proper checkout in the Lightning by someone that is experienced in the Lightning. Then, and only then, they can start your training. To be more specific about the Lightning, yes, it is very easy to land. However, the light weight of the airplane combined with the relatively high aspect ratio and high lift wing, make airspeed control very important. If you are trying to land too fast, it will float some time before it slows enough for a full stall landing. If you try to force it on the runway while still fast, it will tend to rebound or skip back into the air. So just fly the proper speed on final, flare just inches above the runway and hold it off until it stalls on. There will be no bounce or rebound if you are not too fast. That 3300' runway you fly off of is plenty long for a Lightning. With good approaches, an experienced Lightning pilot can easily operate out of a much shorter strip. Also, slow flight is a piece of cake. The ailerons are still very effective at slow speeds, but the proper use of rudder for coordinated turns becomes more important the slower you fly. So use rudders and ailerons together while slow flying (keep the ball centered). Well, you should be doing this all the time, but actually the Lightning basic design will allow you to be somewhat lazy about proper rudder coordination at cruise speeds. So, yes, with the right instructor, you can learn to fly in a Lightning. Some time ago, I gave demo rides in the demo Lightning to two buddies that were thinking about building a Lightning together. One was a pilot and the other a student pilot. The student pilot also brought his instructor (a lady instructor) so she could also get a demo ride and evaluate it for completing his training. All three liked the airplane and the lady instructor was sure she could finish the students training in the Lightning. The student himself, after getting some stick time during his demo ride, exclaimed excitedly, "I can fly this thing". So I would suggest the same to you. Bring your instructor to SYI, or where ever you are thinking about doing the build, and have the instructor get a demo flight as well as you. That way everyone involved can make an informed decision. You and the instructor (on the Lightning), and the demo pilot (as to whether your instructor has their "stuff" together). One other comment, just so you understand the requirements of a newly built experimental amateur built aircraft. The first 40 hours are restricted to a specific area and the aircraft must be flown solo by the pilot or pilots that are doing the test flying. So your dual instruction could not start in the Lightning until after this 40 hour test period is completed. Blue Skies, Buz _____ A Good Credit Score is 7001028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=6680 72%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:49 PM PST US Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Icy Cold? From: "Wayne Patterson" Hello Gary We have to be careful here as well - but we usually go the other way and fly later in the day on very hot days. Perth is on the west coast and on very hot days we have strong early morning easterly winds blowing from the Australian land mass over Perth and out to sea. Unfortunately we have an 800ft scarp just to the east of Perth, so those very strong easterly morning winds form standing waves as they drop from the scarp - the waves flow over Perth airport and our club airfield. This makes turbulence and substantial windshear inevitable. On very hot days, our alternative is to wait for the strong westerly sea breeze to blow in over the coastal plain around Perth - it is called the Fremantle Doctor and comes in at around 4-5.00pm. Whilst this wind is strong, it is normally very smooth and consistent and tends to flatten the thermals. So we tend to get delightful sunset flights - but we also then get standing waves on the inland side of the scarp! Wayne Patterson LOUGHTON PATTERSON GROUP PO Box 398 South Perth 6951 08 94742126 From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY PENNINGTON Sent: Friday, 16 January 2009 10:57 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Icy Cold? Good morning Wayne I don't live in the really cold areas of the US, but it can get chilly here. I'm in Tucson, Arizona. Your current temperatures are very similar to ours during the Summer months. In Tucson, during the Summer, it is commonly 110 degrees at mid day. Needless to say, I fly very early in the mornings. Oh well, nothing is perfect. Happy flying. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Patterson To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:13 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Icy Cold? For those souls in the frozen USA north - we just topped 43C (109F) in Perth city, Western Australia a few minutes ago (1.00pm). The airport is at 43.7C (111F)and the airforce base is at 44C (111.5F). South Australia is due for even higher temperatures tomorrow - so Dennis at Kingston should be very warm. Wayne Patterson LOUGHTON PATTERSON GROUP PO Box 398 South Perth 6951 08 94742126 title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.mat r onics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:10 PM PST US Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Icy Cold? From: "James, Clive R" We have a hill in Norfolk that is 280 feet tall......highest point for miles around. The other day it was minus 11C in one place in England, the News agencies were besides themselves. So were Jab owners as no one could get them started. Keep the stories, info and pictures coming guys, great to read and to see! Regards, Clive -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Patterson Sent: 20 January 2009 01:26 Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Icy Cold? Hello Gary We have to be careful here as well - but we usually go the other way and fly later in the day on very hot days. Perth is on the west coast and on very hot days we have strong early morning easterly winds blowing from the Australian land mass over Perth and out to sea. Unfortunately we have an 800ft scarp just to the east of Perth, so those very strong easterly morning winds form standing waves as they drop from the scarp - the waves flow over Perth airport and our club airfield. This makes turbulence and substantial windshear inevitable. On very hot days, our alternative is to wait for the strong westerly sea breeze to blow in over the coastal plain around Perth - it is called the Fremantle Doctor and comes in at around 4-5.00pm. Whilst this wind is strong, it is normally very smooth and consistent and tends to flatten the thermals. So we tend to get delightful sunset flights - but we also then get standing waves on the inland side of the scarp! Wayne Patterson LOUGHTON PATTERSON GROUP PO Box 398 South Perth 6951 08 94742126 From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY PENNINGTON Sent: Friday, 16 January 2009 10:57 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Icy Cold? Good morning Wayne I don't live in the really cold areas of the US, but it can get chilly here. I'm in Tucson, Arizona. Your current temperatures are very similar to ours during the Summer months. In Tucson, during the Summer, it is commonly 110 degrees at mid day. Needless to say, I fly very early in the mornings. Oh well, nothing is perfect. Happy flying. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Patterson To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:13 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Icy Cold? For those souls in the frozen USA north - we just topped 43C (109F) in Perth city, Western Australia a few minutes ago (1.00pm). The airport is at 43.7C (111F)and the airforce base is at 44C (111.5F). South Australia is due for even higher temperatures tomorrow - so Dennis at Kingston should be very warm. Wayne Patterson LOUGHTON PATTERSON GROUP PO Box 398 South Perth 6951 08 94742126 title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.