Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:32 AM - Re: Re: LAKESIDE LIGHTNING SHOW AND TELL (GARY PENNINGTON)
2. 05:57 AM - ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (AVN100@AOL.COM)
3. 07:11 AM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (flylightning)
4. 07:18 AM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Mefford, Walt)
5. 07:40 AM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Pete Krotje)
6. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: LAKESIDE LIGHTNING SHOW AND TELL (Wayne Lenox)
7. 08:34 AM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Hugh Sontag)
8. 12:02 PM - ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (AVN100@aol.com)
9. 12:06 PM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Mefford, Walt)
10. 12:43 PM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Jim Langley)
11. 12:51 PM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Mefford, Walt)
12. 01:16 PM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Hugh Sontag)
13. 01:25 PM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Larzfromarz)
14. 03:18 PM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Kayberg@aol.com)
15. 05:06 PM - IFR Lightning (GARY PENNINGTON)
16. 05:22 PM - Re: IFR Lightning (JOSEPH MATHIAS LINDA MATHIAS)
17. 06:16 PM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) (Tex Mantell)
18. 06:50 PM - ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3 (AVN100@aol.com)
19. 07:03 PM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3 (Wayne Patterson)
20. 09:21 PM - Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3 (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: LAKESIDE LIGHTNING SHOW AND TELL |
Good morning Wayne
The latest weather report does not look good for Saturday. I will
monitor it each day and keep you informed.
Have a great day.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Lenox<mailto:waynelenox@juno.com>
To: lightning-list@matronics.com<mailto:lightning-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: LAKESIDE LIGHTNING SHOW AND TELL
Gary
Glad to have you. We do have a wind sock at the south end West side
of RW 34.
I will be on 122.8 ( lakeside)
Wayne
-- "GARY PENNINGTON" <pennington@q.com<mailto:pennington@q.com>>
wrote:
Hello Wayne
I am planning on being there if the weather is good. I will contact
you as we get closer. Is there a wind indicator of some kind?
Thanks
Gary Pennington
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Lenox<mailto:waynelenox@juno.com>
To:
lightning-list@matronics.com<mailto:lightning-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 1:20 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: LAKESIDE LIGHTNING SHOW AND TELL
<waynelenox@juno.com<mailto:waynelenox@juno.com>>
ONLY SEVEN DAYS TO GO ----- Saturday February 7th
Lakeside Lightning Show and Tell (AZ05) is open to all that have an
interest in an Arion Lightning. Nel and I will furnish the lunch, Your
Lightning will be the show.
9:00 to 10:00 AM fly-in. We will have Show and tell with Lunch for
the afternoon. Should be a great time to meet other Lightning owners
and friends.
We Monitor 122.8 @ Lakeside (AZ05) RW 16/34 is paved 2700 ft long
and 36 ft. wide. Elevation is 780ft. MSL. Normal Left turns.
Please do not over fly the lake or houses to the North and West.
Nel and I would like to know how many are coming, so please RSVP to
waynelenox@juno.com<mailto:waynelenox@juno.com>
Wayne and Nel Lenox
Lightning N123WL
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
Since Arion has never considered my suggestions "helpful" I'll go ahead and
post this ELSA build manual comment to group. Earlier, I was critical of
Arion for failing to obtain FAA 51% kit approval before the ax fell on extreme
builder assist aircraft such as theirs typically is, but at the same time I
suggested immediate pursuit of the comparatively slam dunk ELSA by building the
single required SLSA and then a hilariously simple ELSA "kit" version. It
is encouraging to see they have begun the process, but discouraging to hear it
sounds like they are simply repackaging the full kit amateur build version
while squandering the ELSA opportunity (which not only has no 51% requirement
but more like a formal 1% owner participation requirement - typically 10% in
industry practice thusfar).
I get this impression from Nick's misstatement that "In order to sell E-LSA
Lightning we MUST have a very detailed ASTM compliant build manual so a
builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft." Horse puckey. If
Arion wants to meet the demand for affordable high performance LSA (there are
plenty of affordable 60 knot V-sub-h two seat former Fat-UL on the market),
ELSA is the way to go and has multiple advantages with essentially only the
"generating revenue for owner" disadvantage. In all its regulations, FAA
regulatory requirements for craft and crew skyrocket when the innocent public
pays
money to get on board. Offering a personal use ELSA with a simplified build
manual and minimal assembly required (and that at an unsophisticated "all
thumbs" level) is the ticket to these advantages (from EAA, other sources, and
my
own bias) over SLSA and Amateur Built. For Arion, a major advantage to ELSA
over SLSA is their carrying a fraction of the liability burden in either
company premiums or adverse court verdicts: the builder must have screwed
something up and the builder declared it airworthy, not us.
Advantages to owners include:
1) Maintenance and annual condition inspection on an SLSA requires either
A&P or owner attends 120 hour course. For ELSA, anyone can repair or modify
and the owner can get an LSRI to do her own annuals with a 16 hour course.
2) Same as SLSA: if manufacturer approves and design, and equipment allow,
it can be flown aerobatically (Lightning could be first LSA with that
distinction although a future Cub-clone is also planning it and may get to market
first) and (by private pilot or above) at night and IFR.
3) For an SLSA, any modification, including installation of new avionics,
must be approved by the aircraft manufacturer. For an ELSA, you are free to
modify the aircraft as you see fit and with unapproved components. Not implying
dangerous, just less expensive without TSO certification costs..
4) Phase one ELSA test is five hours vs forty for Amateur Built.
5) Resale value for ELSA will be much higher than same aircraft Amateur
Built because owner can do maintenance (and, with LSRI, annuals) plus buyer has
confidence 90% (typically) was factory built and quality-controlled on ELSA
versus (theoretically but again builder assist program ethics and practices
coming under scrutiny) 49% or less with EAB. On the other hand, SLSA will have
the highest resale value of the three because they are 100% factory built,
must be professionally maintained and can generate training/towing revenue.
6) And my personal favorite advantage on an aircraft as gorgeous as
Lightning: ELSA N numbers must be 3 inches high, SLSA 12 inches.
==================
PS It appears from owner site reports that, in fact, marketing fraud
champion CZAW in Kunovice did go tits up and the SLSA Sport Cruiser (comparable
in
looks and Vh to Lightning LSA version but stuck with Rotax and weaker
airframe) is being manufactured and sold by the bankruptcy victors: Slavia
Capital.of Prague.
**************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
net/clk;211531132;33070124;e)
Message 3
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
I know that in earlier post AVN100 made it clear how we stuck it to him
about his blogs here. It is easy to see why, I do not believe he actually
know what he is talking about. ASTM standards do specify the need for a
detailed build manual to insure that the aircraft being produced as the ELSA
version of the SLSA aircraft must in fact be built as an exact duplicate.
There is no room for your own inventions and add ons, period. The aircraft
must be built with approved options and those options installed per the
original SLSA certificate. Same with avionics, only approved avionics ( not
necessarily TSO just ones approved by Arion Aircraft, LLC) can be installed
and again they must be installed as we dictate to insure that they are not
installed in a manner which would cause non-compliance with the applicable
standard. Yes we could easily approve something a builder might want to do
but the long story short is the aircraft was shown to be compliant in a
given configuration and therefore must remain in that configuration to be
compliant. That is why you as the manufacturer of an EAB can change it
because you say if it complies. We as the manufacture of the original SLSA
state the compliance configuration and you as the builder of the ELSA must
build it the same way to be in compliance. This is exactly why you can get
away with building a 90% ELSA and circumvent the EAB rule; there are
stipulations which are in fact different. SO yes we are working the SLSA
lightning, with the intention of selling ELSA Lightning's only for the time
being. I am not sure what opportunity was squandered here by Arion Aircraft,
LLC .The only opportunity squandered appears to be yours, to post something
that actually pertains to the build manual.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
Note: that is my full name and yes I do put it at the bottom of my posts.did
you?
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AVN100@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:57 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
Since Arion has never considered my suggestions "helpful" I'll go ahead and
post this ELSA build manual comment to group. Earlier, I was critical of
Arion for failing to obtain FAA 51% kit approval before the ax fell on
extreme builder assist aircraft such as theirs typically is, but at the same
time I suggested immediate pursuit of the comparatively slam dunk ELSA by
building the single required SLSA and then a hilariously simple ELSA "kit"
version. It is encouraging to see they have begun the process, but
discouraging to hear it sounds like they are simply repackaging the full kit
amateur build version while squandering the ELSA opportunity (which not only
has no 51% requirement but more like a formal 1% owner participation
requirement - typically 10% in industry practice thusfar).
I get this impression from Nick's misstatement that "In order to sell E-LSA
Lightning we MUST have a very detailed ASTM compliant build manual so a
builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft." Horse puckey.
If Arion wants to meet the demand for affordable high performance LSA (there
are plenty of affordable 60 knot V-sub-h two seat former Fat-UL on the
market), ELSA is the way to go and has multiple advantages with essentially
only the "generating revenue for owner" disadvantage. In all its
regulations, FAA regulatory requirements for craft and crew skyrocket when
the innocent public pays money to get on board. Offering a personal use
ELSA with a simplified build manual and minimal assembly required (and that
at an unsophisticated "all thumbs" level) is the ticket to these advantages
(from EAA, other sources, and my own bias) over SLSA and Amateur Built. For
Arion, a major advantage to ELSA over SLSA is their carrying a fraction of
the liability burden in either company premiums or adverse court verdicts:
the builder must have screwed something up and the builder declared it
airworthy, not us.
Advantages to owners include:
1) Maintenance and annual condition inspection on an SLSA requires either
A&P or owner attends 120 hour course. For ELSA, anyone can repair or modify
and the owner can get an LSRI to do her own annuals with a 16 hour course.
2) Same as SLSA: if manufacturer approves and design, and equipment allow,
it can be flown aerobatically (Lightning could be first LSA with that
distinction although a future Cub-clone is also planning it and may get to
market first) and (by private pilot or above) at night and IFR.
3) For an SLSA, any modification, including installation of new avionics,
must be approved by the aircraft manufacturer. For an ELSA, you are free to
modify the aircraft as you see fit and with unapproved components. Not
implying dangerous, just less expensive without TSO certification costs..
4) Phase one ELSA test is five hours vs forty for Amateur Built.
5) Resale value for ELSA will be much higher than same aircraft Amateur
Built because owner can do maintenance (and, with LSRI, annuals) plus buyer
has confidence 90% (typically) was factory built and quality-controlled on
ELSA versus (theoretically but again builder assist program ethics and
practices coming under scrutiny) 49% or less with EAB. On the other hand,
SLSA will have the highest resale value of the three because they are 100%
factory built, must be professionally maintained and can generate
training/towing revenue.
6) And my personal favorite advantage on an aircraft as gorgeous as
Lightning: ELSA N numbers must be 3 inches high, SLSA 12 inches.
==================
PS It appears from owner site reports that, in fact, marketing fraud
champion CZAW in Kunovice did go tits up and the SLSA Sport Cruiser
(comparable in looks and Vh to Lightning LSA version but stuck with Rotax
and weaker airframe) is being manufactured and sold by the bankruptcy
victors: Slavia Capital.of Prague.
_____
Great Deals on Dell <http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;211531132;33070124;e>
Laptops. Starting at $499.
Message 4
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
Easy for AVN100 to make these comments when there is nothing for him to
loose.
Walt Mefford
N881WP
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
flylightning
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:07 AM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
I know that in earlier post AVN100 made it clear how we stuck it to him
about his blogs here. It is easy to see why, I do not believe he
actually know what he is talking about. ASTM standards do specify the
need for a detailed build manual to insure that the aircraft being
produced as the ELSA version of the SLSA aircraft must in fact be built
as an exact duplicate. There is no room for your own inventions and add
ons, period. The aircraft must be built with approved options and those
options installed per the original SLSA certificate. Same with avionics,
only approved avionics ( not necessarily TSO just ones approved by Arion
Aircraft, LLC) can be installed and again they must be installed as we
dictate to insure that they are not installed in a manner which would
cause non-compliance with the applicable standard. Yes we could easily
approve something a builder might want to do but the long story short is
the aircraft was shown to be compliant in a given configuration and
therefore must remain in that configuration to be compliant. That is why
you as the manufacturer of an EAB can change it because you say if it
complies. We as the manufacture of the original SLSA state the
compliance configuration and you as the builder of the ELSA must build
it the same way to be in compliance. This is exactly why you can get
away with building a 90% ELSA and circumvent the EAB rule; there are
stipulations which are in fact different. SO yes we are working the SLSA
lightning, with the intention of selling ELSA Lightning's only for the
time being. I am not sure what opportunity was squandered here by Arion
Aircraft, LLC .The only opportunity squandered appears to be yours, to
post something that actually pertains to the build manual.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
Note: that is my full name and yes I do put it at the bottom of my
posts...did you?
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AVN100@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:57 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
Since Arion has never considered my suggestions "helpful" I'll go ahead
and post this ELSA build manual comment to group. Earlier, I was
critical of Arion for failing to obtain FAA 51% kit approval before the
ax fell on extreme builder assist aircraft such as theirs typically is,
but at the same time I suggested immediate pursuit of the comparatively
slam dunk ELSA by building the single required SLSA and then a
hilariously simple ELSA "kit" version. It is encouraging to see they
have begun the process, but discouraging to hear it sounds like they are
simply repackaging the full kit amateur build version while squandering
the ELSA opportunity (which not only has no 51% requirement but more
like a formal 1% owner participation requirement - typically 10% in
industry practice thusfar).
I get this impression from Nick's misstatement that "In order to sell
E-LSA Lightning we MUST have a very detailed ASTM compliant build manual
so a builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft." Horse
puckey. If Arion wants to meet the demand for affordable high
performance LSA (there are plenty of affordable 60 knot V-sub-h two seat
former Fat-UL on the market), ELSA is the way to go and has multiple
advantages with essentially only the "generating revenue for owner"
disadvantage. In all its regulations, FAA regulatory requirements for
craft and crew skyrocket when the innocent public pays money to get on
board. Offering a personal use ELSA with a simplified build manual and
minimal assembly required (and that at an unsophisticated "all thumbs"
level) is the ticket to these advantages (from EAA, other sources, and
my own bias) over SLSA and Amateur Built. For Arion, a major advantage
to ELSA over SLSA is their carrying a fraction of the liability burden
in either company premiums or adverse court verdicts: the builder must
have screwed something up and the builder declared it airworthy, not us.
Advantages to owners include:
1) Maintenance and annual condition inspection on an SLSA
requires either A&P or owner attends 120 hour course. For ELSA, anyone
can repair or modify and the owner can get an LSRI to do her own annuals
with a 16 hour course.
2) Same as SLSA: if manufacturer approves and design, and
equipment allow, it can be flown aerobatically (Lightning could be
first LSA with that distinction although a future Cub-clone is also
planning it and may get to market first) and (by private pilot or above)
at night and IFR.
3) For an SLSA, any modification, including installation of new
avionics, must be approved by the aircraft manufacturer. For an ELSA,
you are free to modify the aircraft as you see fit and with unapproved
components. Not implying dangerous, just less expensive without TSO
certification costs..
4) Phase one ELSA test is five hours vs forty for Amateur Built.
5) Resale value for ELSA will be much higher than same aircraft
Amateur Built because owner can do maintenance (and, with LSRI, annuals)
plus buyer has confidence 90% (typically) was factory built and
quality-controlled on ELSA versus (theoretically but again builder
assist program ethics and practices coming under scrutiny) 49% or less
with EAB. On the other hand, SLSA will have the highest resale value of
the three because they are 100% factory built, must be professionally
maintained and can generate training/towing revenue.
6) And my personal favorite advantage on an aircraft as
gorgeous as Lightning: ELSA N numbers must be 3 inches high, SLSA 12
inches.
==================
PS It appears from owner site reports that, in fact, marketing
fraud champion CZAW in Kunovice did go tits up and the SLSA Sport
Cruiser (comparable in looks and Vh to Lightning LSA version but stuck
with Rotax and weaker airframe) is being manufactured and sold by the
bankruptcy victors: Slavia Capital.of Prague.
________________________________
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
Arion has not put much effort into your suggestions because you are often
off the mark in your understanding of Lightning and your understanding of
the requirements for LSA aircraft.
Gaining a S-LSA certification is certainly no "slam dunk" unless you are the
type of person that really does not care about complying to the FAA
requirements and are willing to put out a product that has questionable
testing or insufficient documentation. If a company producing an LSA has a
test and compliance document that has fewer than 2000 pages it has not
really done the job. Arion Aircraft is going to do it right and your
suggestion that we should short cut the process to make it a "slam dunk" is
offensive to us.
If you had read ASTM F-2563 you would know that a full and complete and
highly detailed manual is required to be delivered with each aircraft kit
intended for kit built E-LSA certification. We as manufacturers must sign a
notarized statement that our manual complies with ASTM F-2563. You state
that it is "horse puckey" that we have to do that. Perhaps your integrity
level is so low that you would sign that document when you don't have a
compliant manual but no one at Arion Aircraft will sign it unless we
actually comply.
An E-LSA aircraft built from a kit must be constructed and equipped exactly
the way the kit manufacturer specifies. It is true that once the E-LSA
certification is achieved a builder can modify his aircraft in any way he
wants as long as he can document that it still meets the LSA requirements
which includes compliance to all ASTM standards. The builder would have to
sign a new FAA form 8130-15 attesting to the compliance to the FAA rule and
ASTM standards. There would have to be documentation proving that the
changed aircraft still complies with F2245, F2339, and others.
Finally, you seem to want to use this forum to throw darts at CZAW and Sport
Cruiser. We really don't care and if you are as far off the mark with those
comments as you are on the LSA certification process then we should ignore
them here and urge you to take those comments to the Sport Cruiser group
(assuming one exists)
Pete Krotje
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC
931-680-2800
www.usjabiru.com
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AVN100@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:57 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
Since Arion has never considered my suggestions "helpful" I'll go ahead and
post this ELSA build manual comment to group. Earlier, I was critical of
Arion for failing to obtain FAA 51% kit approval before the ax fell on
extreme builder assist aircraft such as theirs typically is, but at the same
time I suggested immediate pursuit of the comparatively slam dunk ELSA by
building the single required SLSA and then a hilariously simple ELSA "kit"
version. It is encouraging to see they have begun the process, but
discouraging to hear it sounds like they are simply repackaging the full kit
amateur build version while squandering the ELSA opportunity (which not only
has no 51% requirement but more like a formal 1% owner participation
requirement - typically 10% in industry practice thusfar).
I get this impression from Nick's misstatement that "In order to sell E-LSA
Lightning we MUST have a very detailed ASTM compliant build manual so a
builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft." Horse puckey.
If Arion wants to meet the demand for affordable high performance LSA (there
are plenty of affordable 60 knot V-sub-h two seat former Fat-UL on the
market), ELSA is the way to go and has multiple advantages with essentially
only the "generating revenue for owner" disadvantage. In all its
regulations, FAA regulatory requirements for craft and crew skyrocket when
the innocent public pays money to get on board. Offering a personal use
ELSA with a simplified build manual and minimal assembly required (and that
at an unsophisticated "all thumbs" level) is the ticket to these advantages
(from EAA, other sources, and my own bias) over SLSA and Amateur Built. For
Arion, a major advantage to ELSA over SLSA is their carrying a fraction of
the liability burden in either company premiums or adverse court verdicts:
the builder must have screwed something up and the builder declared it
airworthy, not us.
Advantages to owners include:
1) Maintenance and annual condition inspection on an SLSA requires either
A&P or owner attends 120 hour course. For ELSA, anyone can repair or modify
and the owner can get an LSRI to do her own annuals with a 16 hour course.
2) Same as SLSA: if manufacturer approves and design, and equipment allow,
it can be flown aerobatically (Lightning could be first LSA with that
distinction although a future Cub-clone is also planning it and may get to
market first) and (by private pilot or above) at night and IFR.
3) For an SLSA, any modification, including installation of new avionics,
must be approved by the aircraft manufacturer. For an ELSA, you are free to
modify the aircraft as you see fit and with unapproved components. Not
implying dangerous, just less expensive without TSO certification costs..
4) Phase one ELSA test is five hours vs forty for Amateur Built.
5) Resale value for ELSA will be much higher than same aircraft Amateur
Built because owner can do maintenance (and, with LSRI, annuals) plus buyer
has confidence 90% (typically) was factory built and quality-controlled on
ELSA versus (theoretically but again builder assist program ethics and
practices coming under scrutiny) 49% or less with EAB. On the other hand,
SLSA will have the highest resale value of the three because they are 100%
factory built, must be professionally maintained and can generate
training/towing revenue.
6) And my personal favorite advantage on an aircraft as gorgeous as
Lightning: ELSA N numbers must be 3 inches high, SLSA 12 inches.
==================
PS It appears from owner site reports that, in fact, marketing fraud
champion CZAW in Kunovice did go tits up and the SLSA Sport Cruiser
(comparable in looks and Vh to Lightning LSA version but stuck with Rotax
and weaker airframe) is being manufactured and sold by the bankruptcy
victors: Slavia Capital.of Prague.
_____
Great Deals on Dell <http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;211531132;33070124;e>
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| Subject: | Re: LAKESIDE LIGHTNING SHOW AND TELL |
Gary and Lightning friends
I have also been watching the weather in Arizona. ( weather in Arizona?
) Yes it look bad for our fly-in at Lakeside (AZ05). I think we would
be smart to change the date to Saturday the 14Th of February. Hopefull
y the weather will be better for us. I will contact all that said they
would be here.
The Lakeside Lightning Show and Tell will be put off for one week and he
ld on the 14Th of February 2009, due the upcoming weather in Arizona.
Gary, I also reread my post of February 1, 09 and I should have said our
wind sock is on the South, East side of RW 34.
Hope this change works out for all of us.
Wayne and Nel Lenox
<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-
->
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lick now!
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Message 7
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
For that matter, he won't even identify himself.
It's easy to snipe anonymously. I don't
understand it - maybe it gives him the feeling he
can say anything he wants, right or wrong, and
never have to answer for the accuracy of his
writing.
I suspect he gets off on needling people. It
would be a disadvantage if his targets knew his
name.
Hugh Sontag
>Easy for AVN100 to make these comments when there is nothing for him to loose.
>
>Walt Mefford
>N881WP
>
>
>From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com]
>On Behalf Of flylightning
>Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:07 AM
>To: lightning-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
>
>I know that in earlier post AVN100 made it clear
>how we stuck it to him about his blogs here. It
>is easy to see why, I do not believe he actually
>know what he is talking about. ASTM standards
>do specify the need for a detailed build manual
>to insure that the aircraft being produced as
>the ELSA version of the SLSA aircraft must in
>fact be built as an exact duplicate. There is no
>room for your own inventions and add ons,
>period. The aircraft must be built with approved
>options and those options installed per the
>original SLSA certificate. Same with avionics,
>only approved avionics ( not necessarily TSO
>just ones approved by Arion Aircraft, LLC) can
>be installed and again they must be installed as
>we dictate to insure that they are not installed
>in a manner which would cause non-compliance
>with the applicable standard. Yes we could
>easily approve something a builder might want to
>do but the long story short is the aircraft was
>shown to be compliant in a given configuration
>and therefore must remain in that configuration
>to be compliant. That is why you as the
>manufacturer of an EAB can change it because you
>say if it complies. We as the manufacture of the
>original SLSA state the compliance configuration
>and you as the builder of the ELSA must build it
>the same way to be in compliance. This is
>exactly why you can get away with building a 90%
>ELSA and circumvent the EAB rule; there are
>stipulations which are in fact different. SO yes
>we are working the SLSA lightning, with the
>intention of selling ELSA Lightning's only for
>the time being. I am not sure what opportunity
>was squandered here by Arion Aircraft, LLC .The
>only opportunity squandered appears to be yours,
>to post something that actually pertains to the
>build manual.
>
>Nick Otterback
>Arion Aircraft, LLC
>
>Note: that is my full name and yes I do put it
>at the bottom of my postsdid you?
>
>
>From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com]
>On Behalf Of AVN100@aol.com
>Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 7:57 AM
>To: lightning-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
>
>Since Arion has never considered my suggestions
>"helpful" I'll go ahead and post this ELSA build
>manual comment to group. Earlier, I was
>critical of Arion for failing to obtain FAA 51%
>kit approval before the ax fell on extreme
>builder assist aircraft such as theirs typically
>is, but at the same time I suggested immediate
>pursuit of the comparatively slam dunk ELSA by
>building the single required SLSA and then a
>hilariously simple ELSA "kit" version. It is
>encouraging to see they have begun the
>process, but discouraging to hear it sounds like
>they are simply repackaging the full kit amateur
>build version while squandering the ELSA
>opportunity (which not only has no 51%
>requirement but more like a formal 1% owner
>participation requirement - typically 10% in
>industry practice thusfar).
>
>I get this impression from Nick's misstatement
>that "In order to sell E-LSA Lightning we MUST
>have a very detailed ASTM compliant build manual
>so a builder could in detail re-produce the
>original aircraft." Horse puckey. If Arion
>wants to meet the demand for affordable high
>performance LSA (there are plenty of affordable
>60 knot V-sub-h two seat former Fat-UL on the
>market), ELSA is the way to go and has multiple
>advantages with essentially only the "generating
>revenue for owner" disadvantage. In all its
>regulations, FAA regulatory requirements for
>craft and crew skyrocket when the innocent
>public pays money to get on board. Offering a
>personal use ELSA with a simplified build manual
>and minimal assembly required (and that at an
>unsophisticated "all thumbs" level) is the
>ticket to these advantages (from EAA, other
>sources, and my own bias) over SLSA and Amateur
>Built. For Arion, a major advantage to ELSA
>over SLSA is their carrying a fraction of the
>liability burden in either company premiums or
>adverse court verdicts: the builder must have
>screwed something up and the builder declared it
>airworthy, not us.
>
>Advantages to owners include:
>
>1) Maintenance and annual condition inspection
>on an SLSA requires either A&P or owner attends
>120 hour course. For ELSA, anyone can repair or
>modify and the owner can get an LSRI to do her
>own annuals with a 16 hour course.
>
>2) Same as SLSA: if manufacturer approves and
>design, and equipment allow, it can be flown
>aerobatically (Lightning could be first LSA with
>that distinction although a future Cub-clone is
>also planning it and may get to market first)
>and (by private pilot or above) at night and IFR.
>
>3) For an SLSA, any modification, including
>installation of new avionics, must be approved
>by the aircraft manufacturer. For an ELSA, you
>are free to modify the aircraft as you see fit
>and with unapproved components. Not implying
>dangerous, just less expensive without TSO
>certification costs..
>
>4) Phase one ELSA test is five hours vs forty for Amateur Built.
>
>5) Resale value for ELSA will be much higher
>than same aircraft Amateur Built because owner
>can do maintenance (and, with LSRI, annuals)
>plus buyer has confidence 90% (typically) was
>factory built and quality-controlled on
>ELSA versus (theoretically but again builder
>assist program ethics and practices coming under
>scrutiny) 49% or less with EAB. On the other
>hand, SLSA will have the highest resale value of
>the three because they are 100% factory built,
>must be professionally maintained and can
>generate training/towing revenue.
>
>6) And my personal favorite advantage on an
>aircraft as gorgeous as Lightning: ELSA N
>numbers must be 3 inches high, SLSA 12 inches.
>
>==================
>PS It appears from owner site reports that, in
>fact, marketing fraud champion CZAW in Kunovice
>did go tits up and the SLSA Sport Cruiser
>(comparable in looks and Vh to Lightning LSA
>version but stuck with Rotax and weaker
>airframe) is being manufactured and sold by the
>bankruptcy victors: Slavia Capital.of Prague.
>
>
><http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;211531132;33070124;e>Great
>Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
>
>http://forums.matronics.com
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
OK boys, calm down here. What a thin-skinned bunch of interest-conflicted
old harpies you turned out to be. So much for free speech and open
discussion. I thought this was a Lightning forum not "Praise Arion" list. Next
time
before going to DEFCON ONE, check the subject line and check the facts.
The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and ideally learn
from those facts and answer some questions while avoiding what your livid
responses suggest would be immediate personal retaliation against me through my
employing agency. I do not want to be your friend. I want my Lightning and
those of potential customers viewing all this to be the best ELSA it can be.
FACTS AND CLARIFICATIONS:
1) Arion did fail to secure 51% approval before the ax fell
2) Excessive factory staff participation at 51% builder assist centers was
one of the reasons the ax fell. I think captive DARs may have been another.
2) My E's principal observation and the only quote from Arion challenged was
the claim the ELSA build manual had to be of such detail that the builder
could reproduce the original aircraft. You made it sound like that meant be
able to build the whole airplane from small parts EAB-style her or himself
rather than simply end up with a product identical to the original SLSA. If the
furnished ELSA kit contains the suggested 90% (ideally for owners: higher)
complete, factory-finished, preassembled components, then doesn't the "builder"
only have to be able to reproduce the remaining ten percent (or less) of the
original aircraft?
3) Pete - it is amazing that you as a Jabiru representative are throwing
hand grenades at me for mentioning the CZAW follies (which were not very funny
to hundreds of screwed Mermaid depositors). Those bulletins are relevant
because: a) Sport Cruiser is Arion's closest LSA competition in style, price,
and
performance while far superior in interior space and comfort (and many
potential Lightning buyers are simultaneously considering those); b) as in today's
flames, the people (including you) quickest to denounce me have some or all
of their incomes attached to Lightning. The consumers who read this list
need an independent advocate as they could easily grow either starry-eyed or
fearful of instant condemnation if they ask critical questions. Some already
send me questions they are afraid to personally ask you. Others may need
reminders of how marketing in the SP world can and has run amok and how
undercurrents flow in the industry. Hell, if UKSC Group rumors and this sales
shift to
Prague are correct, your own company's early decision to cut off supply of
engines to CZAW because of fraudulent business practices there helped doom the
original CEO and send the corporation into bankruptcy. Check with HQ if
you hadn't heard that. As one builder thusfar has proven, the SC is a helluva
LSA with a 3300 pulling it instead of that flying toilet and hangar queen
Rotax.
4) But back to kneejerk Nick. Apologies if I misunderstood your original
plaint that "so a builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft" from
this manual you are working on for ELSA. You yourself tied it into the full
experimental amateur built manual detail which as far as I can tell simply
does not apply. Dozens of manufacturers are gonna put out ELSA (and thus
build manuals) who do not even have a full experimental kit for sale. But let's
go to the point you gave me the most abuse on: your pointless insistence that
the ELSA must be built with approved options only "and no add ons, PERIOD !"
Pointless because I never said otherwise. Once the aircraft is completed
IAW your build manual and is accepted and registered as an exact ELSA
equivalent to your thusfar solitary SLSA, the owner has far more latitude in
subsequent modifications and equipment choices than if it were registered as an
SLSA....where she would have to get your approval for every change (and judging
from your positive and courteous responses thusfar that might become
problematic).
At this point I'm going to say "sorry for any misunderstanding" and it would
be nice if y'all reply likewise... keeping in mind Deming's admonition to
invite (not retaliate against) critique. Or just go ahead and 'fess up to your
"My Way or the Highway" business model.
**************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
net/clk;211531132;33070124;e)
Message 9
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
I believe in free speech. I just don,t agee with you. Also my right.
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AVN100@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:02 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
OK boys, calm down here. What a thin-skinned bunch of
interest-conflicted old harpies you turned out to be. So much for free
speech and open discussion. I thought this was a Lightning forum not
"Praise Arion" list. Next time before going to DEFCON ONE, check the
subject line and check the facts.
The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and ideally
learn from those facts and answer some questions while avoiding what
your livid responses suggest would be immediate personal retaliation
against me through my employing agency. I do not want to be your
friend. I want my Lightning and those of potential customers viewing
all this to be the best ELSA it can be.
FACTS AND CLARIFICATIONS:
1) Arion did fail to secure 51% approval before the ax fell
2) Excessive factory staff participation at 51% builder assist centers
was one of the reasons the ax fell. I think captive DARs may have been
another.
2) My E's principal observation and the only quote from Arion challenged
was the claim the ELSA build manual had to be of such detail that the
builder could reproduce the original aircraft. You made it sound like
that meant be able to build the whole airplane from small parts
EAB-style her or himself rather than simply end up with a product
identical to the original SLSA. If the furnished ELSA kit contains the
suggested 90% (ideally for owners: higher) complete, factory-finished,
preassembled components, then doesn't the "builder" only have to be able
to reproduce the remaining ten percent (or less) of the original
aircraft?
3) Pete - it is amazing that you as a Jabiru representative are throwing
hand grenades at me for mentioning the CZAW follies (which were not very
funny to hundreds of screwed Mermaid depositors). Those bulletins are
relevant because: a) Sport Cruiser is Arion's closest LSA competition in
style, price, and performance while far superior in interior space and
comfort (and many potential Lightning buyers are simultaneously
considering those); b) as in today's flames, the people (including you)
quickest to denounce me have some or all of their incomes attached to
Lightning. The consumers who read this list need an independent
advocate as they could easily grow either starry-eyed or fearful of
instant condemnation if they ask critical questions. Some already send
me questions they are afraid to personally ask you. Others may need
reminders of how marketing in the SP world can and has run amok and how
undercurrents flow in the industry. Hell, if UKSC Group rumors and this
sales shift to Prague are correct, your own company's early decision to
cut off supply of engines to CZAW because of fraudulent business
practices there helped doom the original CEO and send the corporation
into bankruptcy. Check with HQ if you hadn't heard that. As one
builder thusfar has proven, the SC is a helluva LSA with a 3300 pulling
it instead of that flying toilet and hangar queen Rotax.
4) But back to kneejerk Nick. Apologies if I misunderstood your original
plaint that "so a builder could in detail re-produce the original
aircraft" from this manual you are working on for ELSA. You yourself
tied it into the full experimental amateur built manual detail which as
far as I can tell simply does not apply. Dozens of manufacturers are
gonna put out ELSA (and thus build manuals) who do not even have a full
experimental kit for sale. But let's go to the point you gave me the
most abuse on: your pointless insistence that the ELSA must be built
with approved options only "and no add ons, PERIOD !" Pointless because
I never said otherwise. Once the aircraft is completed IAW your build
manual and is accepted and registered as an exact ELSA equivalent to
your thusfar solitary SLSA, the owner has far more latitude in
subsequent modifications and equipment choices than if it were
registered as an SLSA....where she would have to get your approval for
every change (and judging from your positive and courteous responses
thusfar that might become problematic).
At this point I'm going to say "sorry for any misunderstanding" and it
would be nice if y'all reply likewise... keeping in mind Deming's
admonition to invite (not retaliate against) critique. Or just go ahead
and 'fess up to your "My Way or the Highway" business model.
________________________________
Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
<http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;211531132;33070124;e>
-------------------------
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
I am so tired of the "House trolls" approach to conversation in some of the
forums, I usually ignore them but I will voice my thoughts anyway.
I strongly considered the SportCruiser almost two years ago when I was
shopping for an airplane, (I have a PPL, so LSA was not a factor). As you
say, I did like the spacous cabin but I steered away from the company
because of obvious practices that "did not smell right". My money, my
decision. I was so close to writing the check, thank God I did not!
When I bought a Lightning, I bought into the company and the build center as
well. Arion and Green Landings have had a couple of opportunities to prove
my faith in them was justified, and HAVE COME THROUGH EACH TIME! I am not a
Arion ra ra guy and have not always agreed with EVERYTHING they have done,
however, I DO like 99% of their direction. It's their business model, not
mine. I really like all the people at Arion, trust them, and while my
enthusiasm some times might be mistaken for promoting the company, I am my
own man with my own opinions; I just get excited about things some times.
I will say this... They have NEVER let me down. I judge people by their
actions and integrety, and that is pretty much it; no ra ra... Being on the
Lightning list, I do not expect to talk about SportCruisers. An occasional
post about another aircraft that uses the same engine or parts is IMHO
acceptable, but take the "company going down in flames" talk elsewhere; I'm
not interested. If I want to talk SC, I'll post on the three SC lists that
I am a member of.
I'm sorry if I am being a bit harsh here, but I am really tired of your made
for TV "House" type of comments. Post like this and you get no respect, and
only take up good email space.
Kindly
Jim Langley
N730AL
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:02 PM, <AVN100@aol.com> wrote:
> OK boys, calm down here. What a thin-skinned bunch of
> interest-conflicted old harpies you turned out to be. So much for free
> speech and open discussion. I thought this was a Lightning forum not
> "Praise Arion" list. Next time before going to DEFCON ONE, check the
> subject line and check the facts.
>
> The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and ideally learn
> from those facts and answer some questions while avoiding what your livid
> responses suggest would be immediate personal retaliation against me through
> my employing agency. I do not want to be your friend. I want my Lightning
> and those of potential customers viewing all this to be the best ELSA it can
> be.
>
> FACTS AND CLARIFICATIONS:
>
> 1) Arion did fail to secure 51% approval before the ax fell
>
> 2) Excessive factory staff participation at 51% builder assist centers was
> one of the reasons the ax fell. I think captive DARs may have been another.
>
>
> 2) My E's principal observation and the only quote from Arion challenged
> was the claim the ELSA build manual had to be of such detail that the
> builder could reproduce the original aircraft. You made it sound like that
> meant be able to build the whole airplane from small parts EAB-style her or
> himself rather than simply end up with a product identical to the original
> SLSA. If the furnished ELSA kit contains the suggested 90% (ideally for
> owners: higher) complete, factory-finished, preassembled components, then
> doesn't the "builder" only have to be able to reproduce the remaining ten
> percent (or less) of the original aircraft?
>
> 3) Pete - it is amazing that you as a Jabiru representative are throwing
> hand grenades at me for mentioning the CZAW follies (which were not very
> funny to hundreds of screwed Mermaid depositors). Those bulletins are
> relevant because: a) Sport Cruiser is Arion's closest LSA competition in
> style, price, and performance while far superior in interior space and
> comfort (and many potential Lightning buyers are simultaneously considering
> those); b) as in today's flames, the people (including you) quickest to
> denounce me have some or all of their incomes attached to Lightning. The
> consumers who read this list need an independent advocate as
> they could easily grow either starry-eyed or fearful of instant
> condemnation if they ask critical questions. Some already send me questions
> they are afraid to personally ask you. Others may need reminders of how
> marketing in the SP world can and has run amok and how undercurrents flow in
> the industry. Hell, if UKSC Group rumors and this sales shift to Prague are
> correct, your own company's early decision to cut off supply of engines to
> CZAW because of fraudulent business practices there helped doom the original
> CEO and send the corporation into bankruptcy. Check with HQ if you hadn't
> heard that. As one builder thusfar has proven, the SC is a helluva LSA with
> a 3300 pulling it instead of that flying toilet and hangar queen Rotax.
>
> 4) But back to kneejerk Nick. Apologies if I misunderstood your original
> plaint that "so a builder could in detail re-produce the original aircraft"
> from this manual you are working on for ELSA. You yourself tied it into the
> full experimental amateur built manual detail which as far as I can tell
> simply does not apply. Dozens of manufacturers are gonna put out ELSA (and
> thus build manuals) who do not even have a full experimental kit for
> sale. But let's go to the point you gave me the most abuse on:
> your pointless insistence that the ELSA must be built with approved options
> only "and no add ons, PERIOD !" Pointless because I never said otherwise.
> Once the aircraft is completed IAW your build manual and is accepted and
> registered as an exact ELSA equivalent to your thusfar solitary SLSA, the
> owner has far more latitude in subsequent modifications and equipment
> choices than if it were registered as an SLSA....where she would have to get
> your approval for every change (and judging from your positive and courteous
> responses thusfar that might become problematic).
>
> At this point I'm going to say "sorry for any misunderstanding" and it
> would be nice if y'all reply likewise... keeping in mind Deming's admonition
> to invite (not retaliate against) critique. Or just go ahead and 'fess up
> to your "My Way or the Highway" business model.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.<http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;211531132;33070124;e%22>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
Nicely said Jim. Let's just end it here.
Walt Mefford
N881WP
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Langley
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
I am so tired of the "House trolls" approach to conversation in some of
the forums, I usually ignore them but I will voice my thoughts anyway.
I strongly considered the SportCruiser almost two years ago when I was
shopping for an airplane, (I have a PPL, so LSA was not a factor). As
you say, I did like the spacous cabin but I steered away from the
company because of obvious practices that "did not smell right". My
money, my decision. I was so close to writing the check, thank God I
did not!
When I bought a Lightning, I bought into the company and the build
center as well. Arion and Green Landings have had a couple of
opportunities to prove my faith in them was justified, and HAVE COME
THROUGH EACH TIME! I am not a Arion ra ra guy and have not always
agreed with EVERYTHING they have done, however, I DO like 99% of their
direction. It's their business model, not mine. I really like all the
people at Arion, trust them, and while my enthusiasm some times might be
mistaken for promoting the company, I am my own man with my own
opinions; I just get excited about things some times.
I will say this... They have NEVER let me down. I judge people by
their actions and integrety, and that is pretty much it; no ra ra...
Being on the Lightning list, I do not expect to talk about
SportCruisers. An occasional post about another aircraft that uses the
same engine or parts is IMHO acceptable, but take the "company going
down in flames" talk elsewhere; I'm not interested. If I want to talk
SC, I'll post on the three SC lists that I am a member of.
I'm sorry if I am being a bit harsh here, but I am really tired of your
made for TV "House" type of comments. Post like this and you get no
respect, and only take up good email space.
Kindly
Jim Langley
N730AL
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:02 PM, <AVN100@aol.com> wrote:
OK boys, calm down here. What a thin-skinned bunch of
interest-conflicted old harpies you turned out to be. So much for free
speech and open discussion. I thought this was a Lightning forum not
"Praise Arion" list. Next time before going to DEFCON ONE, check the
subject line and check the facts.
The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and ideally
learn from those facts and answer some questions while avoiding what
your livid responses suggest would be immediate personal retaliation
against me through my employing agency. I do not want to be your
friend. I want my Lightning and those of potential customers viewing
all this to be the best ELSA it can be.
FACTS AND CLARIFICATIONS:
1) Arion did fail to secure 51% approval before the ax fell
2) Excessive factory staff participation at 51% builder assist centers
was one of the reasons the ax fell. I think captive DARs may have been
another.
2) My E's principal observation and the only quote from Arion challenged
was the claim the ELSA build manual had to be of such detail that the
builder could reproduce the original aircraft. You made it sound like
that meant be able to build the whole airplane from small parts
EAB-style her or himself rather than simply end up with a product
identical to the original SLSA. If the furnished ELSA kit contains the
suggested 90% (ideally for owners: higher) complete, factory-finished,
preassembled components, then doesn't the "builder" only have to be able
to reproduce the remaining ten percent (or less) of the original
aircraft?
3) Pete - it is amazing that you as a Jabiru representative are throwing
hand grenades at me for mentioning the CZAW follies (which were not very
funny to hundreds of screwed Mermaid depositors). Those bulletins are
relevant because: a) Sport Cruiser is Arion's closest LSA competition in
style, price, and performance while far superior in interior space and
comfort (and many potential Lightning buyers are simultaneously
considering those); b) as in today's flames, the people (including you)
quickest to denounce me have some or all of their incomes attached to
Lightning. The consumers who read this list need an independent
advocate as they could easily grow either starry-eyed or fearful of
instant condemnation if they ask critical questions. Some already send
me questions they are afraid to personally ask you. Others may need
reminders of how marketing in the SP world can and has run amok and how
undercurrents flow in the industry. Hell, if UKSC Group rumors and this
sales shift to Prague are correct, your own company's early decision to
cut off supply of engines to CZAW because of fraudulent business
practices there helped doom the original CEO and send the corporation
into bankruptcy. Check with HQ if you hadn't heard that. As one
builder thusfar has proven, the SC is a helluva LSA with a 3300 pulling
it instead of that flying toilet and hangar queen Rotax.
4) But back to kneejerk Nick. Apologies if I misunderstood your original
plaint that "so a builder could in detail re-produce the original
aircraft" from this manual you are working on for ELSA. You yourself
tied it into the full experimental amateur built manual detail which as
far as I can tell simply does not apply. Dozens of manufacturers are
gonna put out ELSA (and thus build manuals) who do not even have a full
experimental kit for sale. But let's go to the point you gave me the
most abuse on: your pointless insistence that the ELSA must be built
with approved options only "and no add ons, PERIOD !" Pointless because
I never said otherwise. Once the aircraft is completed IAW your build
manual and is accepted and registered as an exact ELSA equivalent to
your thusfar solitary SLSA, the owner has far more latitude in
subsequent modifications and equipment choices than if it were
registered as an SLSA....where she would have to get your approval for
every change (and judging from your positive and courteous responses
thusfar that might become problematic).
At this point I'm going to say "sorry for any misunderstanding" and it
would be nice if y'all reply likewise... keeping in mind Deming's
admonition to invite (not retaliate against) critique. Or just go ahead
and 'fess up to your "My Way or the Highway" business model.
________________________________
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| Subject: | Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
You have nothing but poor excuses for hiding in anonymity. You "urge"
without standing behind what you say. Some of what you claim with
authority is wrong. You excoriate without basis.
You could ask questions without acting like you know the answers.
Come to think of it, you mostly don't ask questions, you just make
derogatory self-important comments. You could be civil instead of
insulting and inflammatory, yet you choose otherwise.
I wouldn't want you as a friend.
So is your "employing agency" Farmingdale State University?
By the way, this jerk has offended people on other lists before. I
found a long post of over-the-top criticism and insulting commentary
by this author on another Yahoo list, which culminated in a call to
remove him from the list.
Hugh Sontag
>The reason I remain anonymous is to urge you to deal with and
>ideally learn from those facts and answer some questions while
>avoiding what your livid responses suggest would be immediate
>personal retaliation against me through my employing agency. I do
>not want to be your friend. I want my Lightning and those of
>potential customers viewing all this to be the best ELSA it can be.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
You're being kind rough on Farmingdale aren't ya [Wink]
Larry "Larzfromarz" Romig
Long time Lurker
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=228522#228522
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
Wow. When I left this morning my email was clear, when I get back home
tonight I discover there was a veritable exchange of broadsides between a likely
troll and the home team!!!
My thought is just that there are two kinds of people out there. Those who
understand the rules of the Light Sport game and those who do not but presume
otherwise.
After spending the last three years at airshows trying to explain Light
Sport regs to the unwitting, I commend the Arion team for its clarity and
enthusiasm. It is like a form of torture to be "told" what the regs say..when
they dont; or to be asked the most basic questions about Light
Sport......repeatedly.
My short answer is that Pete, Nick and company live and breathe Light
Sport. They DO know the regs and what they really mean. They DO sit on the
committees for all phases of Light Sport. Their very livelihood depend on
accurate, truthful and thoughtful actions concerning the Light Sport arena. They
have the most skin in the game.
A verbal broadside challenging their grasp and execution in the Light Sport
arena is to be compared to a fart in a whirlwind or perhaps an flea urinating
on the leg of an elephant.
As Buz might say, "your mileage may vary"
doug koenigsberg
In a message dated 2/4/2009 4:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
fly.lightning@gmail.com writes:
--> Lightning-List message posted by: Hugh Sontag <fly.lightning@gmail.com>
You have nothing but poor excuses for hiding in anonymity. You "urge"
without standing behind what you say. Some of what you claim with
authority is wrong. You excoriate without basis.
You could ask questions without acting like you know the answers.
Come to think of it, you mostly don't ask questions, you just make
derogatory self-important comments. You could be civil instead of
insulting and inflammatory, yet you choose otherwise.
I wouldn't want you as a friend.
Message 15
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Hello everyone
Does anyone know if the Lightning can be legally flown IFR?
Thanks to all and happy flying.
Gary Pennington
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| Subject: | Re: IFR Lightning |
Yes, Gary. If you comply with FAR 91.205, you can fly the Lightning
IFR. Mine is equipped for IFR.
Linda
----- Original Message -----
From: GARY PENNINGTON
To: lightning-list
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:05 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: IFR Lightning
Hello everyone
Does anyone know if the Lightning can be legally flown IFR?
Thanks to all and happy flying.
Gary Pennington
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
01/28/09 19:24:00
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) |
Very well said: Thank You Tex
----- Original Message -----
From: Kayberg@AOL.COM
To: lightning-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)
Wow. When I left this morning my email was clear, when I get back home
tonight I discover there was a veritable exchange of broadsides between
a likely troll and the home team!!!
My thought is just that there are two kinds of people out there.
Those who understand the rules of the Light Sport game and those who do
not but presume otherwise.
After spending the last three years at airshows trying to explain
Light Sport regs to the unwitting, I commend the Arion team for its
clarity and enthusiasm. It is like a form of torture to be "told"
what the regs say..when they dont; or to be asked the most basic
questions about Light Sport......repeatedly.
My short answer is that Pete, Nick and company live and breathe Light
Sport. They DO know the regs and what they really mean. They DO sit
on the committees for all phases of Light Sport. Their very livelihood
depend on accurate, truthful and thoughtful actions concerning the Light
Sport arena. They have the most skin in the game.
A verbal broadside challenging their grasp and execution in the Light
Sport arena is to be compared to a fart in a whirlwind or perhaps an
flea urinating on the leg of an elephant.
As Buz might say, "your mileage may vary"
doug koenigsberg
In a message dated 2/4/2009 4:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
fly.lightning@gmail.com writes:
<fly.lightning@gmail.com>
You have nothing but poor excuses for hiding in anonymity. You
"urge"
without standing behind what you say. Some of what you claim with
authority is wrong. You excoriate without basis.
You could ask questions without acting like you know the answers.
Come to think of it, you mostly don't ask questions, you just make
derogatory self-important comments. You could be civil instead of
insulting and inflammatory, yet you choose otherwise.
I wouldn't want you as a friend.
Message 18
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3 |
I will repeat my simple Lightning ELSA questions at the end, hoping against
hope that in this round, finally, someone can objectively and credibly answer
them.
It is SO easy to make this about me instead of about the aircraft... and
to forget I intend to buy one so must think the company and aircraft are fine
overall... yet unlike allah, not perfect. Like Salman Rushdie I get fatwahed
by the mullahs for pointing that out, asking questions, and making
suggestions. Far easier to attack me and critique my style (or lack of it) instead
of
answering my questions or contradicting my observations. The posts thusfar
do the former with relish but not a single one does the latter. Viz:
wampam declares he disagrees with me, as is his right. Doesn't say what he
disagrees with. Offers not a single factual contradiction.
pequeajim calls me a "House Troll" and then admits that thanks to House
Trolls like me criticizing CZAW duplicity on those forums he once monitored,
something didn't smell right and saved him making a big financial mistake. I
guess that is a veiled thank you. Veil you're velly velcome. Like his pals,
he
does not offer a single factual contradiction of anything I posted about
Arion and the Lightning. Even I will admit some of it MUST be in error and much
of it was speculation and/or requests for correction and explanation. He
declares he has his Lightning, gets fantastic customer service, and doesn't
give a rat's ass about anyone who is in the same position here that he once was
in with CZAW = interested but uncommitted, making comparisons with the
competition, and wanting to consider all aspects. Simply the most selfish "House
Whore" I have ever encountered on any enthusiast forum. Hey, he started the
name calling.
Walt cheerleads for and thus seems to agree with piquedjimbo that this forum
is for praising Arion and meeting the needs of current EAB owners... so
prospects and ELSA inquiries be damned. If he and piquedjimbo are right about
that, well someone just say so.... and ex-cu-u-u-se me. And may never be
heard a discouraging word and the skies be not cloudy all day.
In a word, dear Hugh, "no"... but I have been using Macs since graduating
from an Apple IIe to an SE and through a half dozen since. As for my role and
record in other forums see above, noting that all calls for my removal
elsewhere came from company execs or shills who did not want their PR puffery
or
Ponzi schemes (or cash flow) challenged. Worse, some were from sycophants
currying favor while trying to jump ahead of others for early delivery dates.
All were answered with ten times as many posts of praise for my independence
from average readers. As a result I'm still posting on those forums and still
considered objective and reliable, albeit bawdily colorful. I know far less
about Arion and the Lightning than I did about those other marques. I have
never said Arion is guilty of their deliberate misrepresentations or indeed any
malfeasance. Actually I think the long post you refer to was during a
pitched battle five years ago with fat-UL advocates who wanted the Sport Pilot
movement stillborn or, if they couldn't kill it, hoped Limbaugh-like that it
would fail miserably. I see some are still around even though their cause
isn't.
And as for the insults and derision from Doug K., uhh... don't you fall
under the "clearly conflicted interest, personal monetary benefit" banner that
drives so many of those ignoring the substance of my concerns thusfar to launch
ad hominem attacks? Thought I saw you financially connected to Green
Landings which I thought is financially connected to Arion... but retraction and
apologies if mistaken. If not and you ARE tied in financially somehow, time
for YOUR apology and admission that while market forces and the missed 51%
opportunity have brought Pete and Nick late and grateful to the LSA game, they
did not originally "live and breathe it" as you claim, unlike some newer 100%
SP manufacturers... and remain capable of errors or oversights. Aviation
safety and consumer protection depend on asking questions rather than accepting
the status quo and/or ad copy. Unethical bribe time. Admit all that and I
will cheerfully provide a list of twenty spelling and grammar errors from the
comparison table - as part of my constant and consistent product improvement
effort. About that chart, if you ARE with Green Landings, doesn't your own
comparison table's "free rain" [sic] analysis sort of support my prior (and
universally derided) assertion that ELSA allows more equipment and mod
flexibility than SLSA? And whassupp with both being the same price? And why
advertise (and according to my old pal Dan Johnson take deposits on) SLSA if you
only intend to build one for homologation, then go straight to exclusive ELSA
production for an extended period? Oh christ, more questions. And clouds
in the sky. Who needs this, right? Potential SP buyers who want as much
credible, objective information as they can get, that's who. And not just
marketing puffery. Obviously not current EAB owners who are free to ignore this
topic entirely yet who instead chime in attempting to deny the information to
others.
So can ANY of you answer ANY of these questions instead of trying to kill
the messenger?
a) Did Arion miss the 51% EAB opportunity that was out there year after
year until last fall (and won't they have another bite at the apple yet) ?
b) If the 120knot Lightning ELSA is going to be 90% or more (how much
more?) factory or dealer or subcontractor built when the owner gets it and begins
the final ten percent or less, why would its ELSA build manual have to be as
complex as one for the EAB 170mph Lightning?
c) Once your ELSA is complete and registered, are or aren't you much more
free to maintain and modify it than you would be with an SLSA?
d) Is Arion going to start delivering LSA in May, 2009, per their claim at
Sebring to Dan Johnson?
e) If they are, will those be ELSA and/or SLSA and what production rate per
month of each?
I thank any helpful, honest, and brave souls for any answers to the above
and additional hard info on Arion LSA models provided myself (perhaps back
channel would be best for your safety and reputation) or in public to interested
but silent readers. As for the gaggle of indefatigable character assassins,
based on an excellent suggestion from Koenigsberg, I fart in your gen-e-ral
dee-rection.
**************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.
net/clk;211531132;33070124;e)
Message 19
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| Subject: | ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3 |
Matt - manage the list and get this idiot off now if you want me on it.
This is not what I read the list for.
Wayne Patterson
LOUGHTON PATTERSON GROUP
PO Box 398 South Perth 6951
08 94742126
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AVN100@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 5 February 2009 11:44 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3
I will repeat my simple Lightning ELSA questions at the end, hoping
against hope that in this round, finally, someone can objectively and
credibly answer them.
It is SO easy to make this about me instead of about the aircraft...
and to forget I intend to buy one so must think the company and aircraft
are fine overall... yet unlike allah, not perfect. Like Salman Rushdie
I get fatwahed by the mullahs for pointing that out, asking questions,
and making suggestions. Far easier to attack me and critique my style
(or lack of it) instead of answering my questions or contradicting my
observations. The posts thusfar do the former with relish but not a
single one does the latter. Viz:
wampam declares he disagrees with me, as is his right. Doesn't say what
he disagrees with. Offers not a single factual contradiction.
pequeajim calls me a "House Troll" and then admits that thanks to House
Trolls like me criticizing CZAW duplicity on those forums he once
monitored, something didn't smell right and saved him making a big
financial mistake. I guess that is a veiled thank you. Veil you're
velly velcome. Like his pals, he does not offer a single factual
contradiction of anything I posted about Arion and the Lightning. Even
I will admit some of it MUST be in error and much of it was speculation
and/or requests for correction and explanation. He declares he has his
Lightning, gets fantastic customer service, and doesn't give a rat's ass
about anyone who is in the same position here that he once was in with
CZAW = interested but uncommitted, making comparisons with the
competition, and wanting to consider all aspects. Simply the most
selfish "House Whore" I have ever encountered on any enthusiast forum.
Hey, he started the name calling.
Walt cheerleads for and thus seems to agree with piquedjimbo that this
forum is for praising Arion and meeting the needs of current EAB
owners... so prospects and ELSA inquiries be damned. If he and
piquedjimbo are right about that, well someone just say so.... and
ex-cu-u-u-se me. And may never be heard a discouraging word and the
skies be not cloudy all day.
In a word, dear Hugh, "no"... but I have been using Macs since
graduating from an Apple IIe to an SE and through a half dozen since.
As for my role and record in other forums see above, noting that all
calls for my removal elsewhere came from company execs or shills who did
not want their PR puffery or Ponzi schemes (or cash flow) challenged.
Worse, some were from sycophants currying favor while trying to jump
ahead of others for early delivery dates. All were answered with ten
times as many posts of praise for my independence from average readers.
As a result I'm still posting on those forums and still considered
objective and reliable, albeit bawdily colorful. I know far less about
Arion and the Lightning than I did about those other marques. I have
never said Arion is guilty of their deliberate misrepresentations or
indeed any malfeasance. Actually I think the long post you refer to was
during a pitched battle five years ago with fat-UL advocates who wanted
the Sport Pilot movement stillborn or, if they couldn't kill it, hoped
Limbaugh-like that it would fail miserably. I see some are still around
even though their cause isn't.
And as for the insults and derision from Doug K., uhh... don't you fall
under the "clearly conflicted interest, personal monetary benefit"
banner that drives so many of those ignoring the substance of my
concerns thusfar to launch ad hominem attacks? Thought I saw you
financially connected to Green Landings which I thought is financially
connected to Arion... but retraction and apologies if mistaken. If not
and you ARE tied in financially somehow, time for YOUR apology and
admission that while market forces and the missed 51% opportunity have
brought Pete and Nick late and grateful to the LSA game, they did not
originally "live and breathe it" as you claim, unlike some newer 100% SP
manufacturers... and remain capable of errors or oversights. Aviation
safety and consumer protection depend on asking questions rather than
accepting the status quo and/or ad copy. Unethical bribe time. Admit
all that and I will cheerfully provide a list of twenty spelling and
grammar errors from the comparison table - as part of my constant and
consistent product improvement effort. About that chart, if you ARE
with Green Landings, doesn't your own comparison table's "free rain"
[sic] analysis sort of support my prior (and universally derided)
assertion that ELSA allows more equipment and mod flexibility than SLSA?
And whassupp with both being the same price? And why advertise (and
according to my old pal Dan Johnson take deposits on) SLSA if you only
intend to build one for homologation, then go straight to exclusive ELSA
production for an extended period? Oh christ, more questions. And
clouds in the sky. Who needs this, right? Potential SP buyers who want
as much credible, objective information as they can get, that's who. And
not just marketing puffery. Obviously not current EAB owners who are
free to ignore this topic entirely yet who instead chime in attempting
to deny the information to others.
So can ANY of you answer ANY of these questions instead of trying to
kill the messenger?
a) Did Arion miss the 51% EAB opportunity that was out there year after
year until last fall (and won't they have another bite at the apple yet)
?
b) If the 120knot Lightning ELSA is going to be 90% or more (how much
more?) factory or dealer or subcontractor built when the owner gets it
and begins the final ten percent or less, why would its ELSA build
manual have to be as complex as one for the EAB 170mph Lightning?
c) Once your ELSA is complete and registered, are or aren't you much
more free to maintain and modify it than you would be with an SLSA?
d) Is Arion going to start delivering LSA in May, 2009, per their claim
at Sebring to Dan Johnson?
e) If they are, will those be ELSA and/or SLSA and what production rate
per month of each?
I thank any helpful, honest, and brave souls for any answers to the
above and additional hard info on Arion LSA models provided myself
(perhaps back channel would be best for your safety and reputation) or
in public to interested but silent readers. As for the gaggle of
indefatigable character assassins, based on an excellent suggestion from
Koenigsberg, I fart in your gen-e-ral dee-rection.
________________________________
FAQ,
Web
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: ELSA = KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) Round 3 |
AVN100,
I will provide what I think are the answers to your questions, although
you never took the time to answer mine the last time you were on this list.
The reason I am going to take the time to answer them is because others on
the list may be interested in the answers, and one of the main purposes of the
list is information sharing. For those that may be somewhat new to the list,
please realize that I do not now, nor have I ever worked for Arion Aircraft.
I am just a happy customer that they trust to fly all their aircraft
(because of my past flying, building and testing experiences). So here goes:
a) Did Arion miss the 51% EAB opportunity that was out there year after
year until last fall (and won't they have another bite at the apple yet) ?
Arion has requested that the EAB Lightning kit be looked at, but as most
of you know those FAA inspections are on hold until the new 51% rule is out.
So it eventually will be inspected. Your comment about Arion missing the
opportunity year after year is misleading for several reasons. First, remember
the prototype Lightning did not even fly until March of 2006. Nick was
giving it glowing reports to Pete, but Pete was reluctant to spend more of the
investor's money in a demonstrator and to develop a complete EAB kit until he
at least got a second opinion on the prototype's flying characteristics. That
is when I got lucky and Pete asked me to fly the prototype. That flight
report from my flight in July 2006 is still available on the Lightning web
site. Also remember that the first Lightning demo didn't fly until April of
2007, less than 2 years ago and not too much before the moratorium was put in
place. A tremendous amount of work has been done by Arion since the first demo
flew and with very few people actually on the Arion team to do that work.
Completing the paperwork to get the EAB kit inspected for the 51% list probably
took back seat to getting the actual kits into production and doing all the
other things that a start up company with only two or three workers has to
do. Remember, a kit does not have to be on the 51% approved list to be built
as an EAB. It just makes the builder have a good builder's log to show the
DAR to prove that he did at least 51% of the work. Heck, he needs a good
builder's log when he applies for the repairman's certificate. Also remember
that
the Tennessee guys had previously sold the VM-1 Esqual kit and they had it
inspected for the 51% list and it was approved. Believe me, the Esqual kit
is easier to build than the current Lightning kit, so I see no problem with the
Lightning EAB kit being put on the approved list when the FAA gets back to
doing those inspections.
b) If the 120knot Lightning ELSA is going to be 90% or more (how much
more?) factory or dealer or subcontractor built when the owner gets it and begins
the final ten percent or less, why would its ELSA build manual have to be as
complex as one for the EAB 170mph Lightning?
Who said the ELSA Lightning kits will be 90% complete? I am betting
that Arion, being a proactive company, will work with each builder and let them
determine how much work they want the factory to do before they take delivery
or arrive for the builder's assist program. Why do it any other way? Let
the customer "have it their way". So you may see ELSA Lightning kits with
anywhere from 50% to 90% complete. After some point they may find that it is
better to do them all to the same completion for making things more standard.
We will have to wait and see what transpires. Remember, flexibility is the
key to airpower.
The complex build manual will be complex because of the SLSA Lightning
and the fact that it's build manual (and POH) must meet ASTM standards. The
ELSA Lightning will use the same build manual - no need to write a separate
one, and the ELSA builder may possible benefit in the future having a much more
complete build manual (in case the airplane needs some repair). And
remember there can be no ELSA until there is at least one ASTM approved "turn
key"
SLSA. And please don't confuse the old heavy ultra light ELSA that the FAA
came out with to get all those illegal "fat" ultra lights on the registered
list. The ELSA we are talking about can only be if the company first builds a
certified SLSA. Hence all the work to get everything ASTM approved.
c) Once your ELSA is complete and registered, are or aren't you much more
free to maintain and modify it than you would be with an SLSA?
I must admit I have not thoroughly read up on what you will be allowed
to do after an ELSA is flying. I do know that for the initial registration as
an ELSA it must be exactly like the SLSA. But also remember that the SLSA
can have options as to various avionics, etc. that are on the approved list,
so the ELSA can have those same options. Things like wheel pants, landing
lights, etc. can also be on this approved options list. I would guess that if
a
builder later wanted to install a radio that was not on the initial approved
list, it would be like installing a radio in your "store bought" airplane.
Have it installed and signed off by the appropriate person.
d) Is Arion going to start delivering LSA in May, 2009, per their claim at
Sebring to Dan Johnson?
What do you mean by LSA? SLSA or SLSA? And remember, they are already
selling EAB kits that can be built to meet the requirements to be flown by a
Sport Pilot. Assuming all goes well with the ASTM certification for the SLSA
Lightning LS-1 that will probably take place in late March, there will
probably be ELSA Lightning LS-1 kits available by the Sebring time frame.
Remember once again, this is a small company that depends on many different
suppliers. Lets hope the current economic situation throughout the country does
not
effect any of Arion's suppliers.
e) If they are, will those be ELSA and/or SLSA and what production rate per
month of each?
The initial emphasis will be on the ELSA kits, not the SLSA. Why? So
far most of the interest has been in kits, not turn key airplanes. Also,
assuming the EAB Lightning kit does not meet the new 51% rule because of the 20%
fabrication (who really knows what that will mean) then at least Arion can
continue to sell ELSA kits until the EAB kit is re-packaged. As to production
rate per month - Who knows? Again, this is a small company. They will do
their best to meet demand, but to set some production rate at this point is
not desirable. Let supply be driven by the suppliers and demand be driven by
the customer. I see no other good way to do this in a small company. They
certainly don' want to flood the market, even if they could.
So, AVN100, how about answering my previous question. I am curious, do
you now or have you ever worked for the FAA in the National Flight Procedures
Office? If you don't and have not, then how did you pick your email name?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Blue Skies,
Buz
PS: If you are trying to be abrasive, you are doing a good job. Maybe part
of the "We're not happy until you are not happy" way of thinking. If you
are not trying to be abrasive, I suggest you re-read what you have written
before you hit the send button.
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