Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:53 AM - Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (selwyn)
2. 10:16 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (Brian Proett)
3. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
4. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (sttwig@wabroadband.com)
5. 11:51 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (N1BZRich@AOL.COM)
6. 12:23 PM - Trim Tab modifications / need opinions (Charles Dewey)
7. 01:40 PM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (Charles Gallagher)
8. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (Brian Proett)
9. 02:31 PM - Re: Trim Tab modifications / need opinions (flylightning)
10. 03:12 PM - Re: Trim Tab modifications / need opinions / To Nick O. (Charles Dewey)
11. 03:29 PM - Re: Trim Tab modifications / need opinions / To Nick O. (flylightning)
12. 03:46 PM - Re: Trim Tab modifications / need opinions / To Nick O. (Charles Dewey)
13. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
14. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (Kayberg@aol.com)
15. 05:11 PM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (N1BZRich@aol.com)
16. 09:42 PM - Fuel discussion-Stimulation stuff Brian P (James, Clive R)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
Fascinating post!
Now for the trivia question of the day. You mentioned light sweet crude. I can
relate the "light" to consistency and volatility but, given that we are talking
about variations on a basically black gluggy substance, where does the "sweet"
come from.
--------
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231625#231625
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
As Far as I can tell the primary difference between Avgas and auto gas falls
into three buckets:
Octane rating - relates to the activation energy of the fuel. High
performance high compression engines require high activation energies
(higher octane ratings). If you have to low of octane your engine will
knock, the fuel will ignite to early (pre ignition). They say for cars you
can run the lowest octane fuel that does not cause your engine to knock and
you are wasting your money on more expensive fuel.
REID Vapor pressure - the pressure at standard temperature the fuel will
vaporize (boil). Avgas has a RVP of 6.38 psi and auto gas varies summer
winter ... The summer gas is no greater than 7.8. rather it will vaporize
at a lower density altitude.
Additives - Chemicals are added to the gas to do specific reasons. Like
Tetra-ethyl lead to cheaply effectively raise the octane of gasoline. It
does not do us much good however. And my favorite Ethanol. What a shame.
It takes far more fuel and energy to make than the energy output. It is
nasty stuff in your tank as well. Add a little water and the water will
hide in the Ethanol on the ground and separate as you gain altitude. The
point is the additives may or may not be compatible for use in an aircraft.
The terms that we describe curde such as light heavy sour sweet. Are kinda
slang terms.
Light/Heavy - refers to the specific gravity and flow ability of the crude
low values like 20 API Molasses like and 40 lighter fluid. It has
implications on how expensive it will be to get out of the ground.
Sweet vs Sour refers to the amount of sulfur in the crude. Sulfur is costly
and dangerous to deal with. (So2) is very poisonous... Sweet is better than
sour.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of selwyn
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:52 AM
Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu
Fascinating post!
Now for the trivia question of the day. You mentioned light sweet crude. I
can relate the "light" to consistency and volatility but, given that we are
talking about variations on a basically black gluggy substance, where does
the "sweet" come from.
--------
Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=231625#231625
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
baproe@online.no writes:
It takes far more fuel and energy to make than the energy output.
Can you offer some chapter and verse for this statement?
I hear it from time to time and I wonder if it is like some of the other
crap we are being fed by the media these days. Some pretend that the only use
for the corn is in making ethanol and they conveniently forget about the huge
market for brewers grain.
You can reply to me directly and save the others if you like
Doug Koenigsberg
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
Brian,
Please reply on line. Being a farmer (not corn) I have a feeling for the
energy inputs that go into a farm commodity and I believe your statement
is true, but have no factual basis. I , too would be interested in what
you have to say.
Steve Sundquist
Kit #48
> In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> baproe@online.no writes:
>
> It takes far more fuel and energy to make than the energy output.
>
>
> Can you offer some chapter and verse for this statement?
>
> I hear it from time to time and I wonder if it is like some of the other
> crap we are being fed by the media these days. Some pretend that the only
> use
> for the corn is in making ethanol and they conveniently forget about the
> huge
> market for brewers grain.
>
> You can reply to me directly and save the others if you like
>
> Doug Koenigsberg
>
>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
baproe@online.no writes:
And my favorite Ethanol. It takes far more fuel and energy to make than the
energy output.
Brian,
Along that same line, the auto fuel in this somewhat metropolitan area
where I live all contains 10% ethanol. If I search for auto fuel without
ethanol when not in this area I can very occasionally find some in outlaying
rural areas. The reason, I always look for it, is my car and my truck both get
about 15% better gas mileage when using fuel without ethanol. And that 15%
mileage improvement has been pretty consistent every time I can get a tank
full without the ethanol additive. As far as I am concerned, the ethanol
additive to save fuel is just a bunch of "hoodoo" that the politicians from the
corn growing states have put over on us.
Buz
**************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your
neighborhood today.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004)
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Trim Tab modifications / need opinions |
My airplane is still pulling left and the facility I have the plane at now is an
FAA certified repair station. They researched all the Lighning newsletters and
figured out a way to do the trim tab system based on the way other Lightning
owners have done theirs. Their inspectors do not allow modifications to aircraft
unless the trim tab system was sold by the manufacturer (Lightning). So,
I have an airplane that is essentially stuck in Hagerstown, MD. I just need opinions
as to other options here. My project is now almost officially at the three
year mark, even though I do have 14 hours on the plane, the plane essentially
is not done yet.
Charles
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com> wrote:
> From: N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 2:43 PM
> In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard
> Time,
> baproe@online.no writes:
>
> And my favorite Ethanol. It takes far more fuel and
> energy to make than the
> energy output.
>
>
> Brian,
> Along that same line, the auto fuel in this somewhat
> metropolitan area
> where I live all contains 10% ethanol. If I search for
> auto fuel without
> ethanol when not in this area I can very occasionally find
> some in outlaying
> rural areas. The reason, I always look for it, is my car
> and my truck both get
> about 15% better gas mileage when using fuel without
> ethanol. And that 15%
> mileage improvement has been pretty consistent every time I
> can get a tank
> full without the ethanol additive. As far as I am
> concerned, the ethanol
> additive to save fuel is just a bunch of "hoodoo"
> that the politicians from the
> corn growing states have put over on us.
> Buz
>
> **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax
> professional in your
> neighborhood today.
> (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004)
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
Ethanol facts from Cornell University- http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol
.htm- The 10% mandate for clean air in high population areas has a big pr
ice tag. Regards,CRG
Bookmarks Toolbar
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com> wrote:
From: N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu
In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
baproe@online.no writes:
And my
favorite Ethanol.- It takes far more fuel and energy to make than the
energy output.
Brian,
----Along that same line, the auto fuel in this
somewhat-metropolitan area where I live-all contains 10%
ethanol.- If I search for auto fuel without ethanol-when not in this
area I can very occasionally find some in outlaying rural areas.- The
reason, I-always look for it, is-my car and my truck both get about
15% better gas mileage when using fuel without ethanol.- And that 15%
mileage improvement-has been pretty consistent every time I can get a tan
k
full without the ethanol additive.- As far as I am concerned, the ethanol
additive to save fuel is just a bunch of "hoodoo"- that the politicians
from the corn growing states have put over on us.--
Buz-
-
Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborho
od today.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
I would rather be talking about plans to get involved in a Lightning and
flying one. I do enjoy the chat.
Ok I am a little flip and I hope I haven't offended anyone. This is my
assessment of the energy balance. I will refer to the most current
estimates of the energy balance. I have seen several estimates that very
widely depending on what side you are on and what you want to hear. I will
quote the current USDA estimates
"US Department of Agriculture study concludes that ethanol contains 34% more
energy than is used to grow and harvest the corn and distill it into
ethanol."
This means that for every unit of energy that you put into ethanol you yield
1.34 units. OK I overstated it. At best this is a very inefficient.
Buz - the reason you do not get as good of mileage is that ethanol has a
lower BTU content than gasoline.
Ethanol 84.4 KBTU
Gasoline 125 KBTU
Diesel 138.7 KBTU.
This is also why Diesel engines get better mileage. Not as much punch per
gallon.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
sttwig@wabroadband.com
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu
Brian,
Please reply on line. Being a farmer (not corn) I have a feeling for the
energy inputs that go into a farm commodity and I believe your statement
is true, but have no factual basis. I , too would be interested in what
you have to say.
Steve Sundquist
Kit #48
> In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> baproe@online.no writes:
>
> It takes far more fuel and energy to make than the energy output.
>
>
> Can you offer some chapter and verse for this statement?
>
> I hear it from time to time and I wonder if it is like some of the other
> crap we are being fed by the media these days. Some pretend that the only
> use
> for the corn is in making ethanol and they conveniently forget about the
> huge
> market for brewers grain.
>
> You can reply to me directly and save the others if you like
>
> Doug Koenigsberg
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Trim Tab modifications / need opinions |
Charles,
I would assume that you are taking the roll out using flap differential? If
you have to adjust the flaps more than say 1/8" different from each other
than I would suggest putting a small fixed tab say 1" by about 6" on one of
the ailerons. This is no different than seen on Cessna or cirrus or
Columbia. A small aluminum tab that can be adjusted by a slight bend will
fly the aileron in correct direction, this will be more effective and will
not cause a large difference in the flaps during stalls. If they need me to
send them direction on how to do it, or the piece of aluminum and call it
from the factory I can.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles
Dewey
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:23 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications / need opinions
My airplane is still pulling left and the facility I have the plane at now
is an FAA certified repair station. They researched all the Lighning
newsletters and figured out a way to do the trim tab system based on the way
other Lightning owners have done theirs. Their inspectors do not allow
modifications to aircraft unless the trim tab system was sold by the
manufacturer (Lightning). So, I have an airplane that is essentially stuck
in Hagerstown, MD. I just need opinions as to other options here. My project
is now almost officially at the three year mark, even though I do have 14
hours on the plane, the plane essentially is not done yet.
Charles
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com> wrote:
> From: N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 2:43 PM
> In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern Standard
> Time,
> baproe@online.no writes:
>
> And my favorite Ethanol. It takes far more fuel and
> energy to make than the
> energy output.
>
>
> Brian,
> Along that same line, the auto fuel in this somewhat
> metropolitan area
> where I live all contains 10% ethanol. If I search for
> auto fuel without
> ethanol when not in this area I can very occasionally find
> some in outlaying
> rural areas. The reason, I always look for it, is my car
> and my truck both get
> about 15% better gas mileage when using fuel without
> ethanol. And that 15%
> mileage improvement has been pretty consistent every time I
> can get a tank
> full without the ethanol additive. As far as I am
> concerned, the ethanol
> additive to save fuel is just a bunch of "hoodoo"
> that the politicians from the
> corn growing states have put over on us.
> Buz
>
> **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax
> professional in your
> neighborhood today.
>
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&n
cid=emlcntusyelp00000004)
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Trim Tab modifications / need opinions / To Nick O. |
Nick,
I just forwarded to you the detailed proposal from Austin (before he talked
to his inspectors) on info@flylightning.net. I was really excited to get this
problem fixed and get the plane in the air and then I got hit with this bad news.
If the other parts (in the email I sent you) he proposes are needed, can you
order them and send them to him and I of course will pay you for the parts?
I really want Austin to finish the job because Jim Lanning is ready to fly the
hours off in Hagerstown and it would be a major headache at this point to take
the plane elsewhere and find a new test pilot and a new repair facility, not
to mention the hassle of moving the plane to a new facility. Can you talk to
Austin about this? I could even sign a release of liability if necessary- anything
to just finish this project up at this point. Thanks,
Charles
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, flylightning <info@flylightning.net> wrote:
> From: flylightning <info@flylightning.net>
> Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications / need opinions
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 5:29 PM
> "flylightning" <info@flylightning.net>
>
> Charles,
>
> I would assume that you are taking the roll out using flap
> differential? If
> you have to adjust the flaps more than say 1/8"
> different from each other
> than I would suggest putting a small fixed tab say 1"
> by about 6" on one of
> the ailerons. This is no different than seen on Cessna or
> cirrus or
> Columbia. A small aluminum tab that can be adjusted by a
> slight bend will
> fly the aileron in correct direction, this will be more
> effective and will
> not cause a large difference in the flaps during stalls. If
> they need me to
> send them direction on how to do it, or the piece of
> aluminum and call it
> from the factory I can.
>
> Nick Otterback
> Arion Aircraft, LLC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Charles
> Dewey
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:23 PM
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications / need
> opinions
>
> <cdewey6969@yahoo.com>
>
>
> My airplane is still pulling left and the facility I have
> the plane at now
> is an FAA certified repair station. They researched all the
> Lighning
> newsletters and figured out a way to do the trim tab system
> based on the way
> other Lightning owners have done theirs. Their inspectors
> do not allow
> modifications to aircraft unless the trim tab system was
> sold by the
> manufacturer (Lightning). So, I have an airplane that is
> essentially stuck
> in Hagerstown, MD. I just need opinions as to other options
> here. My project
> is now almost officially at the three year mark, even
> though I do have 14
> hours on the plane, the plane essentially is not done yet.
> Charles
>
> --- On Mon, 2/23/09, N1BZRich@aol.com
> <N1BZRich@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > From: N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com>
> > Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu
> > To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> > Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 2:43 PM
> > In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern
> Standard
> > Time,
> > baproe@online.no writes:
> >
> > And my favorite Ethanol. It takes far more fuel and
> > energy to make than the
> > energy output.
> >
> >
> > Brian,
> > Along that same line, the auto fuel in this
> somewhat
> > metropolitan area
> > where I live all contains 10% ethanol. If I search
> for
> > auto fuel without
> > ethanol when not in this area I can very occasionally
> find
> > some in outlaying
> > rural areas. The reason, I always look for it, is my
> car
> > and my truck both get
> > about 15% better gas mileage when using fuel without
> > ethanol. And that 15%
> > mileage improvement has been pretty consistent every
> time I
> > can get a tank
> > full without the ethanol additive. As far as I am
> > concerned, the ethanol
> > additive to save fuel is just a bunch of
> "hoodoo"
> > that the politicians from the
> > corn growing states have put over on us.
> > Buz
> >
> > **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a
> tax
> > professional in your
> > neighborhood today.
> >
> (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&n
> cid=emlcntusyelp00000004)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Trim Tab modifications / need opinions / To Nick O. |
Charles,
I just forwarded my response to Austin to you also. If he needs any of these
items in a "kit" than we can package it that way. What ever you need to help
get your bird going we can help.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles
Dewey
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 5:12 PM
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications / need opinions / To
Nick O.
Nick,
I just forwarded to you the detailed proposal from Austin (before he
talked to his inspectors) on info@flylightning.net. I was really excited to
get this problem fixed and get the plane in the air and then I got hit with
this bad news.
If the other parts (in the email I sent you) he proposes are needed, can
you order them and send them to him and I of course will pay you for the
parts?
I really want Austin to finish the job because Jim Lanning is ready to
fly the hours off in Hagerstown and it would be a major headache at this
point to take the plane elsewhere and find a new test pilot and a new repair
facility, not to mention the hassle of moving the plane to a new facility.
Can you talk to Austin about this? I could even sign a release of liability
if necessary- anything to just finish this project up at this point.
Thanks,
Charles
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, flylightning <info@flylightning.net> wrote:
> From: flylightning <info@flylightning.net>
> Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications / need opinions
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 5:29 PM
> "flylightning" <info@flylightning.net>
>
> Charles,
>
> I would assume that you are taking the roll out using flap
> differential? If
> you have to adjust the flaps more than say 1/8"
> different from each other
> than I would suggest putting a small fixed tab say 1"
> by about 6" on one of
> the ailerons. This is no different than seen on Cessna or
> cirrus or
> Columbia. A small aluminum tab that can be adjusted by a
> slight bend will
> fly the aileron in correct direction, this will be more
> effective and will
> not cause a large difference in the flaps during stalls. If
> they need me to
> send them direction on how to do it, or the piece of
> aluminum and call it
> from the factory I can.
>
> Nick Otterback
> Arion Aircraft, LLC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Charles
> Dewey
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:23 PM
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications / need
> opinions
>
> <cdewey6969@yahoo.com>
>
>
> My airplane is still pulling left and the facility I have
> the plane at now
> is an FAA certified repair station. They researched all the
> Lighning
> newsletters and figured out a way to do the trim tab system
> based on the way
> other Lightning owners have done theirs. Their inspectors
> do not allow
> modifications to aircraft unless the trim tab system was
> sold by the
> manufacturer (Lightning). So, I have an airplane that is
> essentially stuck
> in Hagerstown, MD. I just need opinions as to other options
> here. My project
> is now almost officially at the three year mark, even
> though I do have 14
> hours on the plane, the plane essentially is not done yet.
> Charles
>
> --- On Mon, 2/23/09, N1BZRich@aol.com
> <N1BZRich@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > From: N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com>
> > Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu
> > To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> > Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 2:43 PM
> > In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern
> Standard
> > Time,
> > baproe@online.no writes:
> >
> > And my favorite Ethanol. It takes far more fuel and
> > energy to make than the
> > energy output.
> >
> >
> > Brian,
> > Along that same line, the auto fuel in this
> somewhat
> > metropolitan area
> > where I live all contains 10% ethanol. If I search
> for
> > auto fuel without
> > ethanol when not in this area I can very occasionally
> find
> > some in outlaying
> > rural areas. The reason, I always look for it, is my
> car
> > and my truck both get
> > about 15% better gas mileage when using fuel without
> > ethanol. And that 15%
> > mileage improvement has been pretty consistent every
> time I
> > can get a tank
> > full without the ethanol additive. As far as I am
> > concerned, the ethanol
> > additive to save fuel is just a bunch of
> "hoodoo"
> > that the politicians from the
> > corn growing states have put over on us.
> > Buz
> >
> > **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a
> tax
> > professional in your
> > neighborhood today.
> >
>
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&n
> cid=emlcntusyelp00000004)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Trim Tab modifications / need opinions / To Nick O. |
Thanks Nick. Charles
--- On Mon, 2/23/09, flylightning <info@flylightning.net> wrote:
> From: flylightning <info@flylightning.net>
> Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications / need opinions / To Nick
O.
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 6:23 PM
> "flylightning" <info@flylightning.net>
>
> Charles,
>
> I just forwarded my response to Austin to you also. If he
> needs any of these
> items in a "kit" than we can package it that way.
> What ever you need to help
> get your bird going we can help.
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Charles
> Dewey
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 5:12 PM
> To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications / need
> opinions / To
> Nick O.
>
> <cdewey6969@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Nick,
> I just forwarded to you the detailed proposal from
> Austin (before he
> talked to his inspectors) on info@flylightning.net. I was
> really excited to
> get this problem fixed and get the plane in the air and
> then I got hit with
> this bad news.
> If the other parts (in the email I sent you) he proposes
> are needed, can
> you order them and send them to him and I of course will
> pay you for the
> parts?
> I really want Austin to finish the job because Jim
> Lanning is ready to
> fly the hours off in Hagerstown and it would be a major
> headache at this
> point to take the plane elsewhere and find a new test pilot
> and a new repair
> facility, not to mention the hassle of moving the plane to
> a new facility.
> Can you talk to Austin about this? I could even sign a
> release of liability
> if necessary- anything to just finish this project up at
> this point.
> Thanks,
> Charles
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 2/23/09, flylightning
> <info@flylightning.net> wrote:
>
> > From: flylightning <info@flylightning.net>
> > Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications /
> need opinions
> > To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> > Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 5:29 PM
> > "flylightning" <info@flylightning.net>
> >
> > Charles,
> >
> > I would assume that you are taking the roll out using
> flap
> > differential? If
> > you have to adjust the flaps more than say 1/8"
> > different from each other
> > than I would suggest putting a small fixed tab say
> 1"
> > by about 6" on one of
> > the ailerons. This is no different than seen on Cessna
> or
> > cirrus or
> > Columbia. A small aluminum tab that can be adjusted by
> a
> > slight bend will
> > fly the aileron in correct direction, this will be
> more
> > effective and will
> > not cause a large difference in the flaps during
> stalls. If
> > they need me to
> > send them direction on how to do it, or the piece of
> > aluminum and call it
> > from the factory I can.
> >
> > Nick Otterback
> > Arion Aircraft, LLC
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On
> > Behalf Of Charles
> > Dewey
> > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 2:23 PM
> > To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Lightning-List: Trim Tab modifications / need
> > opinions
> >
> > <cdewey6969@yahoo.com>
> >
> >
> > My airplane is still pulling left and the facility I
> have
> > the plane at now
> > is an FAA certified repair station. They researched
> all the
> > Lighning
> > newsletters and figured out a way to do the trim tab
> system
> > based on the way
> > other Lightning owners have done theirs. Their
> inspectors
> > do not allow
> > modifications to aircraft unless the trim tab system
> was
> > sold by the
> > manufacturer (Lightning). So, I have an airplane that
> is
> > essentially stuck
> > in Hagerstown, MD. I just need opinions as to other
> options
> > here. My project
> > is now almost officially at the three year mark, even
> > though I do have 14
> > hours on the plane, the plane essentially is not done
> yet.
> > Charles
> >
> > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, N1BZRich@aol.com
> > <N1BZRich@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: N1BZRich@aol.com <N1BZRich@aol.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake
> Havasu
> > > To: lightning-list@matronics.com
> > > Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 2:43 PM
> > > In a message dated 2/23/2009 1:16:51 P.M. Eastern
> > Standard
> > > Time,
> > > baproe@online.no writes:
> > >
> > > And my favorite Ethanol. It takes far more fuel
> and
> > > energy to make than the
> > > energy output.
> > >
> > >
> > > Brian,
> > > Along that same line, the auto fuel in this
> > somewhat
> > > metropolitan area
> > > where I live all contains 10% ethanol. If I
> search
> > for
> > > auto fuel without
> > > ethanol when not in this area I can very
> occasionally
> > find
> > > some in outlaying
> > > rural areas. The reason, I always look for it,
> is my
> > car
> > > and my truck both get
> > > about 15% better gas mileage when using fuel
> without
> > > ethanol. And that 15%
> > > mileage improvement has been pretty consistent
> every
> > time I
> > > can get a tank
> > > full without the ethanol additive. As far as I
> am
> > > concerned, the ethanol
> > > additive to save fuel is just a bunch of
> > "hoodoo"
> > > that the politicians from the
> > > corn growing states have put over on us.
> > > Buz
> > >
> > > **************Get a jump start on your taxes.
> Find a
> > tax
> > > professional in your
> > > neighborhood today.
> > >
> >
> (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&n
> > cid=emlcntusyelp00000004)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
In a message dated 2/23/2009 2:51:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
N1BZRich@aol.com writes:
Brian,
Along that same line, the auto fuel in this somewhat metropolitan area
where I live all contains 10% ethanol. If I search for auto fuel without
ethanol when not in this area I can very occasionally find some in outlaying
rural areas. The reason, I always look for it, is my car and my truck both get
about 15% better gas mileage when using fuel without ethanol. And that 15%
mileage improvement has been pretty consistent every time I can get a tank
full without the ethanol additive. As far as I am concerned, the ethanol
additive to save fuel is just a bunch of "hoodoo" that the politicians from the
corn growing states have put over on us.
Buz
Buz,
It would be great if the science backed you up.
Actually 20% ethanol will give the best gas mileage.
But dont believe me, check out this
_http://poet.com/ethanol/performance.asp?ir_ (http://poet.com/ethanol/performance.asp?ir)
And this _http://poet.com/ethanol/power_sky.asp_
(http://poet.com/ethanol/power_sky.asp)
POET has the most state of the art Ethanol plants. Did I mention my cousin
was running one?
Feel free to start at the home page.
Doug Koenigsberg
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
In a message dated 2/23/2009 4:51:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
baproe@online.no writes:
"US Department of Agriculture study concludes that ethanol contains 34% more
energy than is used to grow and harvest the corn and distill it into
ethanol."
This means that for every unit of energy that you put into ethanol you yield
1.34 units. OK I overstated it. At best this is a very inefficient.
Thanks. I got it.
They dont take in to account the feed grain byproducts.
Typical government stats.
Fermenting the sugars to make alcholol doesn't remove the protein in corn.
That means it can be used as a feed grain for cattle mostly, tho it can be
fed to hogs or chickens. I guess they dont bother to subtract the units it
takes to use feeds.
But another way to look at it is as a way to get natural gas into cars,
since most ethanol plants use natural gas to heat the mash and then to remove
the
water in the yellowcake. T Boone Pickens wants to put it in your car
directly, but converting it to ethanol is a little simpler.
Having said all that, I do dislike the presence of ethanol in ALL the fuel
except 100LL. It was nice to fill up this past summer on E85 for a dollar a
gallon less than regular gas. But that was in the ol minivan. And yes E85
milage is less than regular gas.
We can move on from this thread as far as I am concerned.
Thanks all
Doug Koenigsberg
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flight to Lake Havasu |
Well, Doug, what do you expect the POET web page to say since the POET
Research Center, located in Scotland, SD, was the first commercial ethanol plant
in South Dakota. They are promoting their own product and of course are
going to have the figures to make themselves look good. I, on the other hand,
am
a totally independent research facility of two different vehicles and I pay
my own way, and my miles does vary. In fact, every one I have asked about
their mileage using 10% ethanol say the same thing - anywhere from 10% to 20%
LESS fuel mileage.
Anyway, try a really independent study - not an ethanol producer (POET) and
not me. See what Cornell University has to say at:
_http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm_ (http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm)
Let me summarize for you in case you don't want to look it up. A Cornell
University AG expert says, "Adding up the energy costs of corn production and
its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of
ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus,
70
percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that
actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net
energy loss of 54,000 BTUs."
Another source says Ethanol has 84.4 KBTUs of energy and Gasoline has 125
KBTUs. Looks to me like my research agrees with the above and not POET who is
trying hard to sell ethanol.
But as I have said so many times before, your mileage may vary.
Buz
**************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your
neighborhood today.
(http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004)
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Fuel discussion-Stimulation stuff Brian P |
Couple of things to add to this stimulating discussion
Quote, ' I usually lose interest after the stuff comes out of the
ground'
You're having a laugh there aren't you? I've never seen so much written
in one E mail about Downstream and market issues on fuels (though a few
later E mails have a good chunk).
Quote, 'I would have more faith in a fuel that is specifically designed
for the engine that I intend to put it in'
The Jabiru engine is designed for Avgas and unleaded auto fuels 95 RON
and above. I use unleaded fuel in my Jabirus mainly as it's a lot
cheaper here in the UK. What's RON?
There been some talk about anti knock and additives, there is a good
(short) article in Wiki here which also explains our good friend RON:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_number
Which suggests to me that the RON number of US auto gas is good enough,
though you could perhaps split hairs on the actual number.
Vapour lock
I agree we need to be mindful of the vapour locking issue and those at
high ambients need to be really aware. I have my electric fuel pumps
right at the tank on both my planes to give me less draw on the fuel in
to the pump and to pressure through the system out, this to avoid vapour
lock whilst at high power settings, me being a confirmed unleaded cheap
fuel man.
Ethanol, well this is purely a political issue, our world is, as I
understand it, short of food. So why we are 'growing' fuel is beyond me.
There is still plenty of the stuff in the ground, liquid and solid. Also
rots some fuels tanks and sealants so beware of what you sloshed your
tanks with. I wasn't aware of the reduced performance potential, all my
vehicles are diesel. My Jabiru SP seems indifferent to what it burns for
the same litre/hour (it does get avgas when I'm on tour).
Good stuff Brian P and everyone else, enjoyed reading some really
informed E mails, Regards, Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Proett
Sent: 22 February 2009 17:32
Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Flight to Lake Havasu
A little gasoline trivia - Since I am in the industry I thought that I
would let you know what I know about crudes and gasolines. As a starter
I am not in the refining business. I am in the E&P (Exploration and
Production) end and I usually lose interest after the stuff comes out of
the ground.
Firstly, crude varies dramatically from condensates that can be used
directly in your car to heavy oil that is the consistency of peanut
butter. As we are turning more to alternate crudes we are producing
more peanut butter and less light sweet stuff. Refineries must set up
for the type of crude being run and what product is being produced.
Two things that are not widely known: There are only a few places that
oil is refined and the product is transported across the country via
pipelines. Here is the thing, all companies use the same pipeline
system. So at the other end you don't really know who produced the
product. The product must be on spec before it enters the pipeline and
the specs are very tightly controlled. The difference between
ExxonMobil and Chevron is not the base product but the additives and
blending at the terminals. Secondly, I can count at least 18
formulations of gasoline that are used around the country. Summer vs.
winter, high density traffic areas (EPA reformulated e.g. Ca and other
major population centers) and high altitude areas. Each of these
carries three grades of fuels. Do the math.
The gasoline needs to have the proper octane, and it needs to have the
proper Reid vapor pressure, or RVP. Buz referred to the fuels vapor
pressure are an important factor. Fuels with a high RVP will begin to
boil if your tank is sitting there in 100+ F heat. Not Good. This is
the difference between summer and winter blends even when the octane
remains the same. As you all know atmospheric pressure is 14.7
pounds/in2 at sea level and the pressure decreases with altitude. When
the atmospheric pressure is less than the RVP the fuel will begin to
boil. This occurs in a carburetor earlier with the lower pressure
(Vapor Lock). The EPA has declared that summer gasoline blends may not
exceed 7.8 psi in some locations, and 9.0 psi in others. I don't know
how high the cheaper winter blends can go. Now you know why the
gasoline is more expensive in the summer.
The octane and RVP is controlled by the blend. Ok, back to the
refineries. Gasoline is composed of many different hydrocarbons. Crude
oil enters a refinery, and is processed through various units before
being blended into gasoline. A refinery may have a fluid catalytic
cracker (FCC), an alkylate unit, and a reformer, each of which produces
gasoline blending components. Alkylate gasoline, for example, is
valuable because it has a very high octane, and can be used to produce
high-octane (and higher value) blends. Light straight run gasoline is
the least processed stream. It is cheap to produce, but it has a low
octane. The refinery mixes these components together to meet the product
specifications. The RVP is controlled by the butane percentage. All
the components vary but Butane has a RVP of 52. This is much higher
than the other components so the summer blends only contain about 2%
butane.
So what does this mean for aviation use of gasolines that are spec'ed
for use in ground based autos. Well it depends on the engine and fuel
delivery system. There is a constant balance between the auto
manufactures, environmental issues and commerciality. Engines have
changed, these changes have resulted in changes fuel specs. It has all
gotten more complex and the spec have gotten more stringent. There is
an effort to create a new fuel spec for Avgas with out lead. The
primary issue is not the ability to come up with a fuel but one that is
compatible with the old engine designs and installed base.
Personally, I would have more faith in a fuel that is specifically
designed for the engine that I intend to put it in. If you know the
fuel specs and the manufacture specs then you should be good to go.
Brian P.
________________________________
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N1BZRich@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Flight to Lake Havasu
In a message dated 2/5/2009 7:24:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
pennington@q.com writes:
I don't know how to explain this, but as I noted before, my
engine burns less Premium Auto Fuel per hour than AvGas.
Gary,
I just re read your Lake Havasu flight report and this time actually
noticed your statement / question (above) about the difference of auto
gas verses AvGas fuel burns. And the fact that you got slightly better
fuel burns and thus used less fuel when you were using auto gas. The
reason for this is that auto gas is more volatile than avgas, and
because of this you may actually see slightly lower fuel usages. There
can be some downsides, such as higher vaporization, a higher potential
for vapor lock, and perhaps more carburetor icing. Another thing to
remember is that auto gas has looser manufacturing specifications and
quality control is less stringent, so actual quality and performance may
vary widely from load to load. Hope this helps.
Blue Skies,
Buz
________________________________
Need a job? Find an employment agency near you
<http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcnt
usyelp00000003> .
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|