---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/24/09: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:36 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (Kayberg@aol.com) 2. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 3. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 4. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 5. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (Brian Proett) 6. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (N1BZRich@AOL.COM) 7. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu (James, Clive R) 8. 11:40 AM - here will change the subject line to fuel.... (flylightning) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:39 AM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu In a message dated 2/23/2009 8:12:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, N1BZRich@aol.com writes: Anyway, try a really independent study - not an ethanol producer (POET) and not me. See what Cornell University has to say at: _http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm_ (http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm) Let me summarize for you in case you don't want to look it up. A Cornell University AG expert says, "Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs." Cornell University is well known for it's liberal bent as well as being located in a farm area that has been the slowest in the nation to distill ethanol. ...since we are questioning motives. I am just saying that they cheat by adding the energy costs of corn production despite ethanol not being the only resulting product. Thus the figure of 131,000 BTUs is bogus. It also has some age to it, but that is another story. POET has much more efficient plants than the numbers this is based on. But since they are competitve, privately owned and industry leaders; their exact numbers are classified. But they are making money where the CO-OPs are not. In the Maryland area, ethanol is here to stay because it is the best and cheapest replacement for MTBE. Clean air standards around here require winter fuels to be oxygenated and MTBE is nasty stuff. There is a lot more to the ethanol story. But again, I personally wish it was not there for aviation uses., or at least until more legitimate research is done. Doug ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:55 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu Hi again Doug, Your comment about Cornell being known for it's liberal bent would seem to tell me that they would be very pro ethanol, and thus not spouting the other side of the story. Anyway, POET's or Cornell's research really doesn't matter to me, as my own independent car and truck keep telling me that they get 15% less fuel mileage when using fuel with 10% ethanol. And I can tell you for sure that my car and truck are not liberals - also both being red, they are not conservative either. They are independents. So stick that in your tail pipe and smoke it. ;-) See you at SNF? Buz **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:06 AM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu In a message dated 2/24/2009 9:25:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, N1BZRich@aol.com writes: Hi again Doug, Your comment about Cornell being known for it's liberal bent would seem to tell me that they would be very pro ethanol, and thus not spouting the other side of the story. Anyway, POET's or Cornell's research really doesn't matter to me, as my own independent car and truck keep telling me that they get 15% less fuel mileage when using fuel with 10% ethanol. And I can tell you for sure that my car and truck are not liberals - also both being red, they are not conservative either. They are independents. So stick that in your tail pipe and smoke it. ;-) See you at SNF? Buz One of the problems with the whole ethanol question is the lack of good data. The research quoted in the POET website was done at South Dakota State. They discovered a 1% better mileage using 20% ethanol....despite the differences in BTU's. It would appear that Ethanol has a better, cleaner burn and that might account for the unexpected increase in mileage. Of course that will not happen in your vehicles. Are you using auto fuel in your simulated Lightning? How has that worked out? Do you test for water content? Which brings up another point. Actually a serious one. There is no real testing done at the pumps to determine the true alcohol content. You might be filling your vehicles up with water or 5% ethanol or who knows? Ethanol is not shipped through pipelines (it cleans them out) but by rail cars. That can make blending for delivery to stations a less than precise event. To my knowledge, there is little testing done other than to verify the "proof" as it leaves the plant. I suspect that Fred and Charley at the ol fuel terminal just take the data of the gasoline, (reed vapor pressure, RON or whatever) and staple the proof test done when the railcar left Iowa to the rest of the paperwork and call it good. Then they each urinate into the tank and it is delivered to your station. The water that leaks into the storage tank just hides in the Ethanol and it is sold to you! It might have up to 10% Ethanol, 1% water....let me see was that by volume or weight? Well, you get the point. Brazil has set the world standard for a country that is the size of the U.S. yet runs on ethanol. Yet we seem to have little interest in how they are doing so. As to politics, the agricultural publications were very puzzled by the rejection of ethanol by McCain and the support of it by Obama. It seemed like it should have been the other way around...if indeed it takes more btu's to make ethanol than it delivers. This is not the forum for politics, but had it not been for the high prices ethanol plants were willing to pay last spring and summer, Congress might be trying to bail out grain farmers along with banks, Wall Street and everything else. Oil prices were high at planting and harvesting, but so were the grain prices. Both are depressed now. Ethanol plants are currently running significant losses. Since you seem concerned about my tailpipe, I shall bring my recent colonoscopy pictures to Sun n Fun for your abject perusal. Doug Koenigsberg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:25 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu In a message dated 2/24/2009 10:10:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Kayberg@aol.com writes: Are you using auto fuel in your simulated Lightning? No, Doug, I have never used anything but aviation fuel in any of my airplanes. To me the extra trouble you have to go through to get it to the airport and the worry that it might have ethanol in it is just not worth the potential money saved. And it is getting almost impossible to find auto fuel without ethanol. So I just call the truck or pull up to the self serve pump at the airport if they have one. And as to your recent colonoscopy pictures, just send them on now as a jpeg file and I will put them in the next Lightning Newsletter as the centerfold photo. Some of our builders may want a laugh. Or maybe even it could be in the technical tips section on how you developed the perfect exhaust system and you could include some words on how to use a reamer. Anyway, thanks for sharing. You are a real pooper - OOPS, I mean trooper. Buz **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:53 AM PST US From: "Brian Proett" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu My last words on this. It was kinda fun. If I had a plane!! I would have more to contribute than sharing a little trivia and starting a political battle. I would stick to the manufactures recommendations lead no lead whatever. I just want to be sure I know what I am getting. I would trust the FBO to furnish proper Mogas or avgas. Fermentation products should not be burnt but drank -specifically Beer. I am happy to pay that tax. I would like to go flying with you Clive sometime when I am in Aberdeen. Brian P _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kayberg@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu In a message dated 2/24/2009 9:25:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, N1BZRich@aol.com writes: Hi again Doug, Your comment about Cornell being known for it's liberal bent would seem to tell me that they would be very pro ethanol, and thus not spouting the other side of the story. Anyway, POET's or Cornell's research really doesn't matter to me, as my own independent car and truck keep telling me that they get 15% less fuel mileage when using fuel with 10% ethanol. And I can tell you for sure that my car and truck are not liberals - also both being red, they are not conservative either. They are independents. So stick that in your tail pipe and smoke it. ;-) See you at SNF? Buz One of the problems with the whole ethanol question is the lack of good data. The research quoted in the POET website was done at South Dakota State. They discovered a 1% better mileage using 20% ethanol....despite the differences in BTU's. It would appear that Ethanol has a better, cleaner burn and that might account for the unexpected increase in mileage. Of course that will not happen in your vehicles. Are you using auto fuel in your simulated Lightning? How has that worked out? Do you test for water content? Which brings up another point. Actually a serious one. There is no real testing done at the pumps to determine the true alcohol content. You might be filling your vehicles up with water or 5% ethanol or who knows? Ethanol is not shipped through pipelines (it cleans them out) but by rail cars. That can make blending for delivery to stations a less than precise event. To my knowledge, there is little testing done other than to verify the "proof" as it leaves the plant. I suspect that Fred and Charley at the ol fuel terminal just take the data of the gasoline, (reed vapor pressure, RON or whatever) and staple the proof test done when the railcar left Iowa to the rest of the paperwork and call it good. Then they each urinate into the tank and it is delivered to your station. The water that leaks into the storage tank just hides in the Ethanol and it is sold to you! It might have up to 10% Ethanol, 1% water....let me see was that by volume or weight? Well, you get the point. Brazil has set the world standard for a country that is the size of the U.S. yet runs on ethanol. Yet we seem to have little interest in how they are doing so. As to politics, the agricultural publications were very puzzled by the rejection of ethanol by McCain and the support of it by Obama. It seemed like it should have been the other way around...if indeed it takes more btu's to make ethanol than it delivers. This is not the forum for politics, but had it not been for the high prices ethanol plants were willing to pay last spring and summer, Congress might be trying to bail out grain farmers along with banks, Wall Street and everything else. Oil prices were high at planting and harvesting, but so were the grain prices. Both are depressed now. Ethanol plants are currently running significant losses. Since you seem concerned about my tailpipe, I shall bring my recent colonoscopy pictures to Sun n Fun for your abject perusal. Doug Koenigsberg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:18 AM PST US From: N1BZRich@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu In a message dated 2/24/2009 1:20:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, baproe@online.no writes: My last words on this. It was kinda fun. Hi Brian, Yes, it was kind of fun and perhaps we did learn something. But I do hope that everyone realizes that, in reality, Doug and I actually are good friends and occasionally enjoy some "back and forth" with words of wisdom for each other. Blue Skies, Buz **************Get a jump start on your taxes. Find a tax professional in your neighborhood today. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=Tax+Return+Preparation+%26+Filing&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000004) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu From: "James, Clive R" I think you woke everyone up Brian, it was getting a little quiet on the list. Fortunately I'm not in Aberdeen much, not my favourite place to be so I minimise my time there. Apart from the weather I associate it with work and my stay usually lasts 10 hours one way and 6 hours the other. You are welcome to come for a fly if you are ever in Norfolk where I live. You ever get down that way? A ride in the Esqual when I get it fixed (I recently remodelled the U/C legs) the are like this ) ( now. Regards, Clive -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Proett Sent: 24 February 2009 18:18 Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu My last words on this. It was kinda fun. If I had a plane!! I would have more to contribute than sharing a little trivia and starting a political battle. I would stick to the manufactures recommendations lead no lead whatever. I just want to be sure I know what I am getting. I would trust the FBO to furnish proper Mogas or avgas. Fermentation products should not be burnt but drank -specifically Beer. I am happy to pay that tax. I would like to go flying with you Clive sometime when I am in Aberdeen. Brian P ________________________________ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kayberg@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu In a message dated 2/24/2009 9:25:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, N1BZRich@aol.com writes: Hi again Doug, Your comment about Cornell being known for it's liberal bent would seem to tell me that they would be very pro ethanol, and thus not spouting the other side of the story. Anyway, POET's or Cornell's research really doesn't matter to me, as my own independent car and truck keep telling me that they get 15% less fuel mileage when using fuel with 10% ethanol. And I can tell you for sure that my car and truck are not liberals - also both being red, they are not conservative either. They are independents. So stick that in your tail pipe and smoke it. ;-) See you at SNF? Buz One of the problems with the whole ethanol question is the lack of good data. The research quoted in the POET website was done at South Dakota State. They discovered a 1% better mileage using 20% ethanol....despite the differences in BTU's. It would appear that Ethanol has a better, cleaner burn and that might account for the unexpected increase in mileage. Of course that will not happen in your vehicles. Are you using auto fuel in your simulated Lightning? How has that worked out? Do you test for water content? Which brings up another point. Actually a serious one. There is no real testing done at the pumps to determine the true alcohol content. You might be filling your vehicles up with water or 5% ethanol or who knows? Ethanol is not shipped through pipelines (it cleans them out) but by rail cars. That can make blending for delivery to stations a less than precise event. To my knowledge, there is little testing done other than to verify the "proof" as it leaves the plant. I suspect that Fred and Charley at the ol fuel terminal just take the data of the gasoline, (reed vapor pressure, RON or whatever) and staple the proof test done when the railcar left Iowa to the rest of the paperwork and call it good. Then they each urinate into the tank and it is delivered to your station. The water that leaks into the storage tank just hides in the Ethanol and it is sold to you! It might have up to 10% Ethanol, 1% water....let me see was that by volume or weight? Well, you get the point. Brazil has set the world standard for a country that is the size of the U.S. yet runs on ethanol. Yet we seem to have little interest in how they are doing so. As to politics, the agricultural publications were very puzzled by the rejection of ethanol by McCain and the support of it by Obama. It seemed like it should have been the other way around...if indeed it takes more btu's to make ethanol than it delivers. This is not the forum for politics, but had it not been for the high prices ethanol plants were willing to pay last spring and summer, Congress might be trying to bail out grain farmers along with banks, Wall Street and everything else. Oil prices were high at planting and harvesting, but so were the grain prices. Both are depressed now. Ethanol plants are currently running significant losses. Since you seem concerned about my tailpipe, I shall bring my recent colonoscopy pictures to Sun n Fun for your abject perusal. Doug Koenigsberg http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:19 AM PST US From: "flylightning" Subject: Lightning-List: here will change the subject line to fuel.... Yes well just give the bootleggers here in TN a few years and well have some really good fuel to work with nick -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James, Clive R Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 12:49 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu I think you woke everyone up Brian, it was getting a little quiet on the list. Fortunately I'm not in Aberdeen much, not my favourite place to be so I minimise my time there. Apart from the weather I associate it with work and my stay usually lasts 10 hours one way and 6 hours the other. You are welcome to come for a fly if you are ever in Norfolk where I live. You ever get down that way? A ride in the Esqual when I get it fixed (I recently remodelled the U/C legs) the are like this ) ( now. Regards, Clive -----Original Message----- From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Proett Sent: 24 February 2009 18:18 Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu My last words on this. It was kinda fun. If I had a plane!! I would have more to contribute than sharing a little trivia and starting a political battle. I would stick to the manufactures recommendations lead no lead whatever. I just want to be sure I know what I am getting. I would trust the FBO to furnish proper Mogas or avgas. Fermentation products should not be burnt but drank -specifically Beer. I am happy to pay that tax. I would like to go flying with you Clive sometime when I am in Aberdeen. Brian P ________________________________ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kayberg@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Flight to Lake Havasu In a message dated 2/24/2009 9:25:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, N1BZRich@aol.com writes: Hi again Doug, Your comment about Cornell being known for it's liberal bent would seem to tell me that they would be very pro ethanol, and thus not spouting the other side of the story. Anyway, POET's or Cornell's research really doesn't matter to me, as my own independent car and truck keep telling me that they get 15% less fuel mileage when using fuel with 10% ethanol. And I can tell you for sure that my car and truck are not liberals - also both being red, they are not conservative either. They are independents. So stick that in your tail pipe and smoke it. ;-) See you at SNF? Buz One of the problems with the whole ethanol question is the lack of good data. The research quoted in the POET website was done at South Dakota State. They discovered a 1% better mileage using 20% ethanol....despite the differences in BTU's. It would appear that Ethanol has a better, cleaner burn and that might account for the unexpected increase in mileage. Of course that will not happen in your vehicles. Are you using auto fuel in your simulated Lightning? How has that worked out? Do you test for water content? Which brings up another point. Actually a serious one. There is no real testing done at the pumps to determine the true alcohol content. You might be filling your vehicles up with water or 5% ethanol or who knows? Ethanol is not shipped through pipelines (it cleans them out) but by rail cars. That can make blending for delivery to stations a less than precise event. To my knowledge, there is little testing done other than to verify the "proof" as it leaves the plant. I suspect that Fred and Charley at the ol fuel terminal just take the data of the gasoline, (reed vapor pressure, RON or whatever) and staple the proof test done when the railcar left Iowa to the rest of the paperwork and call it good. Then they each urinate into the tank and it is delivered to your station. The water that leaks into the storage tank just hides in the Ethanol and it is sold to you! It might have up to 10% Ethanol, 1% water....let me see was that by volume or weight? Well, you get the point. Brazil has set the world standard for a country that is the size of the U.S. yet runs on ethanol. Yet we seem to have little interest in how they are doing so. As to politics, the agricultural publications were very puzzled by the rejection of ethanol by McCain and the support of it by Obama. It seemed like it should have been the other way around...if indeed it takes more btu's to make ethanol than it delivers. This is not the forum for politics, but had it not been for the high prices ethanol plants were willing to pay last spring and summer, Congress might be trying to bail out grain farmers along with banks, Wall Street and everything else. Oil prices were high at planting and harvesting, but so were the grain prices. Both are depressed now. Ethanol plants are currently running significant losses. Since you seem concerned about my tailpipe, I shall bring my recent colonoscopy pictures to Sun n Fun for your abject perusal. Doug Koenigsberg http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.