Today's Message Index:
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1. 09:24 AM - Re: Airshows this weeks end (Brian Proett)
2. 02:37 PM - Dougs response to Gary. (Kayberg@AOL.COM)
3. 04:12 PM - Re: Dougs response to Gary. (GARY PENNINGTON)
4. 06:10 PM - Something else in the tank maybe (Johnny Thompson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Airshows this weeks end |
Nick
As a potential costumer, the negative press about the fuel tanks brings up
an issue that I should consider with a purchase of one of your products. I
understand the issues of homebuilt aircraft and warrantees, but I might
consider a SLSA. One of the considerations and selling points of s SLAS is
a warrantee and the security of a potentially better built aircraft. What
would be the warrantee for a factory built Lightning? 5 years and 50K miles?
I will not be returning to the states in 2009 as originally planned but as
with most people close to retirement, I took a hit with my savings and I
will be postponing retirement for a year. Norway is not a bad place and I
really enjoy it here, with the exception that I can not fly here with no
medical.
Brian Proett
_____
From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flylightning
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:45 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Airshows this weeks end
Any one in the Tallahassee Area of Florida this week end should head over to
Airfest 2009. apparently a real big show with lots of aircraft and
performances. Our SLSA Lightning is there and available for demo rides,
there is a Jabiru J230 too. As I under stand it Greg is off to a airshow in
Payson AZ this weekend too or maybe next weekend but not sure, give him a
call and arrange a flight in his new bird.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
Message 2
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| Subject: | Dougs response to Gary. |
Gary,
I dont think I communicated very well. Please let me try again.
1) I am saying that it is POSSIBLE that a substance that should not be
introduced to aircraft-type fuel tanks may have gotten in your tanks somehow.
It is not uncommon to have contamination problems with auto fuel. It is
manufactured and stored to a much lower standard that aircraft fuel. I
dont remember if it was just one of your tanks or both. If that occurred it
is not a warrantee claim, in my opinion.
2) I am saying that if a part HAS BEEN DETERMINED to have been defective,
then it is reasonable for the manufacturer to replace it, of course. But
there should be some burden of proof. We live in a country of
over-reactive people, witness the recent hysteria over "swine flu". It sounds
like in
this case Nick is offering a free "fix", which sounds good to me.
3) The slippery slope begins when a parts supplier is asked to pay for a
paint job, labor to replace the part, possibly a rental aircraft, or any
other "result" of a parts failure. It is my opinion that since they sold
parts, not a completed airplane, it is an unreasonable request in the world
of Homebuilts. It is part of the reason kits are sold at a greatly reduced
price over a completely constructed aircraft.
4) The sloshing sealant that I believe is used has been around a long
time. It is probably available in a "speed shop" near you. It has no history
of delaminating from any type of alcohol. That also is a clue that
something other than alcohol has entered your tank(s). It could be as simple
as someone washing the tanks out with "reducer" left over from painting, to
"get them really clean". The fumes from acetone or enamel reducer could
have broken down a thin spot in the slosh, then gone to work on the bond
between sealer and tank. It could have been aided by some contamination from
the auto fuel. I really dont know the chemistry exactly, but my point is
that it may be possible.
You wrote that the sealant has delaminated and the paint has bubbled.
Neither should have occurred just from gasoline. Something else is
present....at least to my way of thinking.
I really dont mind the rest of what you wrote about me. I probably
deserve a good dose of it. I do empathize with your situation. I would not
want to trade places with you and be standing in your hangar looking at a
messed up airplane. It appeared you had done a great job building it and you
have flown it a great deal....with a lot of pleasure. I am truly sorry
for your situation. It is every builder's nightmare! I also should not
have said that Nick should not give you ANYTHING! I meant to say anything
other than just the fix or a replacement part. Again, that was my bad
communication.
I also agree with your warning. The use of auto fuel these days can be
risky business. AND it is important to keep checking fuel systems,
including filters, screens, gascolator and carb bowl.
Best wishes,
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 5/15/2009 3:22:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
pennington@q.com writes:
Doug, Doug, Doug
I can always count on you to take a negative, "Screw the Customer"
position. You have voiced this attitude with me before and I ignored it. I just
assumed you were a major ASS! But not this time Doug! Now you've gone to far.
You are saying that the Arion Lightning Company should not be expected to
assume any responsibility what-so-ever for their product . Apparently, you
believe that a manufacturer can produce and sell faulty products to
unsuspecting customers and the customer should have no recourse when it fails.
In
your opinion, if something goes wrong, it is always the customers fault.
The United States is full of people like you. But thankfully, because of the
poor economy, that is changing. Businesses like yours are filing bankruptcy
every day and you could be next. With your attitude, you should be next!
I'm surprised that Pete hasn't put Duct Tape over your mouth to prevent you
from damaging the Lightning reputation. Nick has been courteous during this
ordeal and Greg Hobbs is a very nice guy. But not you Doug! You don't give
a damn about the customer!
Understand this Doug....people who purchase a Lightning aircraft, spend
upwards of $100,000.00 for a product that the Arion Lightning staff claim to
be high quality and safe. That may be chicken feed to you, but for the rest
of us, it is a great deal of money! You to have the audacity to say that we
should not expect you to be held accountable? You should be horse whipped!
I will offer my services!
It must be my imagination that the sealant inside the tanks has
delaminated. I must be delusional thinking my wing is sitting there with the paint
lifted and wrinkled up. Let me remind you Douggy, I did not build the tanks.
Nor did I prep and apply the sealant. Arion Lightning did! You should be
thankful that the sealant didn't plug the fuel lines during my last flight. I
could have been killed. How do you think the NTSB would view your
responsibility in the matter Douggy? Don't think this matter is can be swept under
the rug. I'm keeping all applicable emails and I will do my part to inform
potential Lightning customers. You have pissed off the wrong guy.
One last thing, all the work I did on the plane is functioning perfectly.
Don't take my word for it. Ask anyone who has seen it.
NOTICE TO PROSPECTIVE LIGHTNING BUILDERS AND CURRENT OWNERS!
Check your fuel tanks! Especially if you are burning auto fuel with
ethanol. If there is any indication of delaminating sealant , do not fly the
plane. Your life may depend on it.
Gary Pennington
----- Original Message -----
From: _Kayberg@aol.com_ (mailto:Kayberg@aol.com)
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Where is everyone?
In a message dated 5/14/2009 7:07:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_pennington@q.com_ (mailto:pennington@q.com) writes:
Nick
If there was something wrong with the product or the application, will the
warrantee cover my losses, .....$100.00 so far in Acetone to remove the
nasty stuff from inside the tanks, $500.00 in paint, plugs for the tank, new
lens covers for the landing lights that I spoke to about and countless
hours of labor....not to mention down time?
Gary Pennington
Gary,
While I feel your frustrations, I want to speak to the notion of a
warrantee. I have some bias as a kitplane (SkyRanger) supplier who has heard
some
rather unreasonable expectations from customers. Since the kits can cost
as much as a new car, some folks think the warrantee should be similar!!
But once a builder has a kit, there is little control over what happens
next.
First, I think there is something in your fuel besides alcohol. There is
no way ethanol is going to remove your paint, particularly overnight. It
just isnt that strong. If you were burning MEK or Acetone, maybe. I
think you got a bad batch of fuel. Or somebody hates you at your airport!!!
Second, I would hope that Nick would NOT offer anything! I know that
sounds harsh and makes me a bad guy, but in cases other than outright
mistakes, it is a slippery slope for a supplier of possible aircraft parts to
offer much of a warrantee. It is one thing to offer a replacement part
for one that is CLEARLY DEFECTIVE, but once it becomes an airplane, the
warrantee should be the responsibility of the Manufacturer, which is the person
on the nameplate, not the supplier of the parts. The supplier just has
very limited control over what happens. I am not saying you did something
wrong which caused the problem, I am saying it is difficult to determine
cause and effect....because some of the causes may not be known or revealed.
Given the number of Lightnings flying who are using auto fuel as well as
100LL, and given that the same material is used in all; it is unlikely a
problem caused by the fabrication of the tank. It just seems like
something else is going on.
Just my $.02.
Doug Koenigsberg
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Dougs response to Gary. |
Doug
I think you communicated your position quite well.
Answers to your comments:
1. I suppose it is possible that Chevron mixed some mysterious chemical
in their fuel that only I purchased for my Lightning. I couldn't rule
out the possibility that an alien from outer space visited and
contaminated my tanks. Not very likely though! My Lightning is always
locked up in a hanger!
No, it is far more likely that your tank builder had a bad day and
failed to adequately prep the tanks. But then, you wouldn't admit to
that.
2. The Lightning builder in Marana, Arizona said it is probably caused
by ethanol. Other pilots who have inspected the tanks have said it was
poor preparation. Nick also believes it was poor prep. That being the
case, where's my replacement wings?
By the way, Nick is not offering a "free fix" in any way, shape or form!
So far, the only warrantee remedy is two cans of sealant and I don't
even have that yet! If someone told you that Arion Lightning is fixing
my plane for free, they are a liar! Did someone really tell you that,
or, did you just make it up?
3. Arion Lightning has not offered to reimburse me for anything. None of
this would have happened if your product was top quality as advertised.
4. Bulllshit!
Gary Pennington
----- Original Message -----
From: Kayberg@aol.com<mailto:Kayberg@aol.com>
To: lightning-list@matronics.com<mailto:lightning-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 2:34 PM
Subject: Lightning-List: Dougs response to Gary.
Gary,
I dont think I communicated very well. Please let me try again.
1) I am saying that it is POSSIBLE that a substance that should not be
introduced to aircraft-type fuel tanks may have gotten in your tanks
somehow. It is not uncommon to have contamination problems with auto
fuel. It is manufactured and stored to a much lower standard that
aircraft fuel. I dont remember if it was just one of your tanks or
both. If that occurred it is not a warrantee claim, in my opinion.
2) I am saying that if a part HAS BEEN DETERMINED to have been
defective, then it is reasonable for the manufacturer to replace it, of
course. But there should be some burden of proof. We live in a country
of over-reactive people, witness the recent hysteria over "swine flu".
It sounds like in this case Nick is offering a free "fix", which sounds
good to me.
3) The slippery slope begins when a parts supplier is asked to pay
for a paint job, labor to replace the part, possibly a rental aircraft,
or any other "result" of a parts failure. It is my opinion that since
they sold parts, not a completed airplane, it is an unreasonable request
in the world of Homebuilts. It is part of the reason kits are sold at
a greatly reduced price over a completely constructed aircraft.
4) The sloshing sealant that I believe is used has been around a long
time. It is probably available in a "speed shop" near you. It has no
history of delaminating from any type of alcohol. That also is a clue
that something other than alcohol has entered your tank(s). It could
be as simple as someone washing the tanks out with "reducer" left over
from painting, to "get them really clean". The fumes from acetone or
enamel reducer could have broken down a thin spot in the slosh, then
gone to work on the bond between sealer and tank. It could have been
aided by some contamination from the auto fuel. I really dont know the
chemistry exactly, but my point is that it may be possible.
You wrote that the sealant has delaminated and the paint has bubbled.
Neither should have occurred just from gasoline. Something else is
present....at least to my way of thinking.
I really dont mind the rest of what you wrote about me. I probably
deserve a good dose of it. I do empathize with your situation. I
would not want to trade places with you and be standing in your hangar
looking at a messed up airplane. It appeared you had done a great job
building it and you have flown it a great deal....with a lot of
pleasure. I am truly sorry for your situation. It is every builder's
nightmare! I also should not have said that Nick should not give you
ANYTHING! I meant to say anything other than just the fix or a
replacement part. Again, that was my bad communication.
I also agree with your warning. The use of auto fuel these days can
be risky business. AND it is important to keep checking fuel systems,
including filters, screens, gascolator and carb bowl.
Best wishes,
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 5/15/2009 3:22:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
pennington@q.com writes:
Doug, Doug, Doug
I can always count on you to take a negative, "Screw the Customer"
position. You have voiced this attitude with me before and I ignored it.
I just assumed you were a major ASS! But not this time Doug! Now you've
gone to far.
You are saying that the Arion Lightning Company should not be
expected to assume any responsibility what-so-ever for their product .
Apparently, you believe that a manufacturer can produce and sell faulty
products to unsuspecting customers and the customer should have no
recourse when it fails. In your opinion, if something goes wrong, it is
always the customers fault. The United States is full of people like
you. But thankfully, because of the poor economy, that is changing.
Businesses like yours are filing bankruptcy every day and you could be
next. With your attitude, you should be next! I'm surprised that Pete
hasn't put Duct Tape over your mouth to prevent you from damaging the
Lightning reputation. Nick has been courteous during this ordeal and
Greg Hobbs is a very nice guy. But not you Doug! You don't give a damn
about the customer!
Understand this Doug....people who purchase a Lightning aircraft,
spend upwards of $100,000.00 for a product that the Arion Lightning
staff claim to be high quality and safe. That may be chicken feed to
you, but for the rest of us, it is a great deal of money! You to have
the audacity to say that we should not expect you to be held
accountable? You should be horse whipped! I will offer my services!
It must be my imagination that the sealant inside the tanks has
delaminated. I must be delusional thinking my wing is sitting there with
the paint lifted and wrinkled up. Let me remind you Douggy, I did not
build the tanks. Nor did I prep and apply the sealant. Arion Lightning
did! You should be thankful that the sealant didn't plug the fuel lines
during my last flight. I could have been killed. How do you think the
NTSB would view your responsibility in the matter Douggy? Don't think
this matter is can be swept under the rug. I'm keeping all applicable
emails and I will do my part to inform potential Lightning customers.
You have pissed off the wrong guy.
One last thing, all the work I did on the plane is functioning
perfectly. Don't take my word for it. Ask anyone who has seen it.
NOTICE TO PROSPECTIVE LIGHTNING BUILDERS AND CURRENT OWNERS!
Check your fuel tanks! Especially if you are burning auto fuel with
ethanol. If there is any indication of delaminating sealant , do not fly
the plane. Your life may depend on it.
Gary Pennington
----- Original Message -----
From: Kayberg@aol.com<mailto:Kayberg@aol.com>
To:
lightning-list@matronics.com<mailto:lightning-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Where is everyone?
In a message dated 5/14/2009 7:07:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
pennington@q.com<mailto:pennington@q.com> writes:
Nick
If there was something wrong with the product or the
application, will the warrantee cover my losses, .....$100.00 so far in
Acetone to remove the nasty stuff from inside the tanks, $500.00 in
paint, plugs for the tank, new lens covers for the landing lights that I
spoke to about and countless hours of labor....not to mention down time?
Gary Pennington
Gary,
While I feel your frustrations, I want to speak to the notion of a
warrantee. I have some bias as a kitplane (SkyRanger) supplier who has
heard some rather unreasonable expectations from customers. Since the
kits can cost as much as a new car, some folks think the warrantee
should be similar!! But once a builder has a kit, there is little
control over what happens next.
First, I think there is something in your fuel besides alcohol.
There is no way ethanol is going to remove your paint, particularly
overnight. It just isnt that strong. If you were burning MEK or
Acetone, maybe. I think you got a bad batch of fuel. Or somebody
hates you at your airport!!!
Second, I would hope that Nick would NOT offer anything! I know
that sounds harsh and makes me a bad guy, but in cases other than
outright mistakes, it is a slippery slope for a supplier of possible
aircraft parts to offer much of a warrantee. It is one thing to offer
a replacement part for one that is CLEARLY DEFECTIVE, but once it
becomes an airplane, the warrantee should be the responsibility of the
Manufacturer, which is the person on the nameplate, not the supplier of
the parts. The supplier just has very limited control over what
happens. I am not saying you did something wrong which caused the
problem, I am saying it is difficult to determine cause and
effect....because some of the causes may not be known or revealed.
Given the number of Lightnings flying who are using auto fuel as
well as 100LL, and given that the same material is used in all; it is
unlikely a problem caused by the fabrication of the tank. It just
seems like something else is going on.
Just my $.02.
Doug Koenigsberg
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Lightning-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Something else in the tank maybe |
I met with Gary a few weeks ago to look at his tanks. It was a very,
very bad sight. Makes one really sad knowing what is ahead. Just a few
weeks before this I had taken pictures of Gary's aircraft. It is
beautiful and shows signs of great attention to detail. It was built by
a man that takes pride in his work. Not your average homebuilt. I did
note that Gary was using auto gas which I also use in some of my planes
till Arizona mandated all auto fuel will have special additives to
reduce the smog. I have not read the requirement yet but started using
100LL in my planes.
>From my past career in aviation R&D, maintenance and as an accident
investigator in aircraft systems I have picked up two comments from
Gary's emails that I just read that set off an alarm bell for me which
would guide me, an investigator in a specific area. The aircraft has two
different problems. Delimitation of a sealant, failure of two seals. As
of now, I believe this is a problem from some type of contamination in
the fuel tank. There are two things wrong with the fuel system:
Failure in one area, you look everywhere, in two related areas, you
first look at what both items have come into contact with.
NOTE: MY THOUGHT ARE NOTHING BUT THOUGHTS, LOOKING FOR THE PROBLEM TO
PREVENT IT FROM VISITING MY AIRCRAFT. AN INVESTIGATION HAS NOT BEEN DONE
BY ME AND THERE ARE A LOT OF FACTS THAT GARY KNOWS THAT WE DON'T. JUST
TRYING TO HELP THE COMMUNITY. I DO NOT LIKE ASSUMPTIONS OVER
INVESTIGATION BUT THINK IT MIGHT HELP IN THIS CASE. I WOULD SEE THIS
EMAIL AS A PROCEDURE TO FOLLOW, DEFINITLY NOT A FACT FILLED REPORT.
1. Sealant delaminated
2. Seals (O Rings) came apart on the sump drains
Find if the problem was caused during manufacture, installation of the
sump drains, manufacture of the aircraft by builder or contaminants in
the fuel or added at fueling. Someone from Mars.
This is just a thought process and can only be proven (maybe) by
physical investigation. I would really investigate all possible areas of
interest since one would not want to make repairs and then have it
happen all over again. REMEMBER, AN INVESTIGATION IS TO PREVENT
SOMETHING FROM HAPPING AGAIN AND TO FIX THE PROBLEM. NO BLAME TO
ANYONE!!!!!!
A: I know of no other case of this sealant delaminating,
even when at 20% ethanol,auto fuel, 100LL or any other fuel made for a
combustion engine. That is just me, not a good source for an
investigator. Has the tank manufacture, or sealant, had any other cases
of delamination. Gary has the most flight time I have heard on such a
new build. I have been told by Nick he has not heard of any other
failures. Investigation at this time leads one to assume, but no
solid fact, the sealant failure is from a source external from
manufacture. If some cleaner or other chemical was left in the glass
tank before the sealant was applied it could lead to delamination. Same
contaminates could damage the seals. When did the O ring fail, before
or after the delaminating started? Have you removed the drain valves
before? Changed the seals? Possible failure fault: Contamination by
outside source of incompatible material.
B: Seals (O rings) came from a different source then the
tank manufacture. They are manufactured for a specific fluid and job.
Synthetic rubber is the norm with Buna-N used most for gasoline. Need to
see the seal (O ring) and try to determine material. Material is damaged
in certain ways by different types of fluids/chemicals.
Possible failure fault: Contamination of an incompatible material;
Possible damage at installation, expired use date, any thing could make
the seal damage not related to the delamation.
C: Damage of paint: Gary, if I understand correctly the
damage to the paint came after the wings were removed, were upside down
and had some chemical in them to loosen the sealant The chemical came
out the vent and damaged the paint during the cleanup process. I think
the email stated the tanks never leaked? If so then the investigator
would not take this problem into the investigation.
D: We do not have auto fuel at the airport that Gary and
I use. I get my fuel some place else. I do not know how you get fuel.
Do you get you fuel from a tank, barrel or whatever? I use a 500 gallon
tank, transfer to 100 gallon tank in my truck and then pump into my
aircraft. I use electric pumps with time/quantity changed filters on
each storage tank. I test the fuel when delivered by the supplier for
any alcohol and percentage. HOWEVER, Arizona is now a state that is pro
additive and anti aviation (get out and vote) so who knows what we are
getting. I stopped using auto gas when this law started.
We do not know and will most likely we will never know what chemical
came into contact, if any, that MIGHT have caused this. If we could have
tested the fuel and delaminated sealant before cleanup was started we
most like could have discovered the source or ruled it out through
chemical test. We just have to be careful. If a person gets
replacement parts from Home Depot just know what your are doing. If you
have "letters" after your name you still must be careful, heck, your
fuel tank might blow up or something strange you have no control over.
Lets all just work together to make "it better then last week".
Gary, I happen to have a wing with the fuel tank blown out at the
bottom, lets completely open it up and make a "non static producing"
power brush that will clean all areas of the tank through the filler
cap. Knowing your work ethics,you might have done this and finished the
job. It would be nice to see if we can remove sealant this way without
a lot of chemical. I do not thing the sealant burned off during the
explosion. Call me, I'll be glad to help any way I can, looking forward
to flying off your wing when I get released by the Doc.
Johnny Thompson
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