---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/18/09: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:10 AM - Re: Something else in the tank maybe (GARY PENNINGTON) 2. 06:33 AM - Re: Airshows this weeks end (flylightning) 3. 07:47 AM - Re: Something else in the tank maybe (Johnny Thompson) 4. 07:47 AM - Re: Dougs response to Gary. (flylightning) 5. 08:34 AM - Re: Dougs response to Gary II (Kayberg@aol.com) 6. 03:39 PM - Re: Dougs response to Gary II (GARY PENNINGTON) 7. 03:47 PM - Re: Dougs response to Gary II (Kayberg@AOL.COM) 8. 04:20 PM - Have faith, be patient... (Jim Langley) 9. 05:24 PM - Re: Have faith, be patient... (GARY PENNINGTON) 10. 05:57 PM - Re: Have faith, be patient... (Jim Langley) 11. 05:58 PM - Re: Have faith, be patient... (Brian Whittingham) 12. 06:26 PM - Re: Have faith, be patient... (GARY PENNINGTON) 13. 06:29 PM - Re: Have faith, be patient... (GARY PENNINGTON) 14. 09:23 PM - Re: Have faith, be patient... (Johnny Thompson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:15 AM PST US From: "GARY PENNINGTON" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Something else in the tank maybe Good morning Johnny Thank you for your kind words. 1. The "O" rings came apart on the sump drains after the first flight. The manufacturer said they were probably damaged during assembly at the factory. The "CirClip" came off the smaller sump drain that fits into the Gas Collator sometime during the second flight. The manufacturer did not know why that happened. He sent new drains with good "O" rings, (that he installed personally), and I have not had further problems. 2. I purchase my fuel from the Chevron Station. I pump it into a 55 gallon barrel. The barrel has a hand crank with "Water Separating" canister type fuel filter. It is the same set up I have used for years on my other planes. 3. You are correct....damage to the wing paint occurred after I removed the wings. I turned the wing over with Ethanol in the tank, (thinking it would remove the remainder of the sealant), and it escaped through the vent tube, ran down the wing and lifted the paint. I used "Acetone" to remove the remaining sealant in the tanks. The tanks are pretty clean. I will call Greg this morning around 8:00 and swing by to pick up the new sealant. If everything goes well, I should have the tanks re-sealed by the end of the week. Then I can repaint. Hope to see you this morning. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Johnny Thompson To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 6:05 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Something else in the tank maybe I met with Gary a few weeks ago to look at his tanks. It was a very, very bad sight. Makes one really sad knowing what is ahead. Just a few weeks before this I had taken pictures of Gary's aircraft. It is beautiful and shows signs of great attention to detail. It was built by a man that takes pride in his work. Not your average homebuilt. I did note that Gary was using auto gas which I also use in some of my planes till Arizona mandated all auto fuel will have special additives to reduce the smog. I have not read the requirement yet but started using 100LL in my planes. From my past career in aviation R&D, maintenance and as an accident investigator in aircraft systems I have picked up two comments from Gary's emails that I just read that set off an alarm bell for me which would guide me, an investigator in a specific area. The aircraft has two different problems. Delimitation of a sealant, failure of two seals. As of now, I believe this is a problem from some type of contamination in the fuel tank. There are two things wrong with the fuel system: Failure in one area, you look everywhere, in two related areas, you first look at what both items have come into contact with. NOTE: MY THOUGHT ARE NOTHING BUT THOUGHTS, LOOKING FOR THE PROBLEM TO PREVENT IT FROM VISITING MY AIRCRAFT. AN INVESTIGATION HAS NOT BEEN DONE BY ME AND THERE ARE A LOT OF FACTS THAT GARY KNOWS THAT WE DON'T. JUST TRYING TO HELP THE COMMUNITY. I DO NOT LIKE ASSUMPTIONS OVER INVESTIGATION BUT THINK IT MIGHT HELP IN THIS CASE. I WOULD SEE THIS EMAIL AS A PROCEDURE TO FOLLOW, DEFINITLY NOT A FACT FILLED REPORT. 1. Sealant delaminated 2. Seals (O Rings) came apart on the sump drains Find if the problem was caused during manufacture, installation of the sump drains, manufacture of the aircraft by builder or contaminants in the fuel or added at fueling. Someone from Mars. This is just a thought process and can only be proven (maybe) by physical investigation. I would really investigate all possible areas of interest since one would not want to make repairs and then have it happen all over again. REMEMBER, AN INVESTIGATION IS TO PREVENT SOMETHING FROM HAPPING AGAIN AND TO FIX THE PROBLEM. NO BLAME TO ANYONE!!!!!! A: I know of no other case of this sealant delaminating, even when at 20% ethanol,auto fuel, 100LL or any other fuel made for a combustion engine. That is just me, not a good source for an investigator. Has the tank manufacture, or sealant, had any other cases of delamination. Gary has the most flight time I have heard on such a new build. I have been told by Nick he has not heard of any other failures. Investigation at this time leads one to assume, but no solid fact, the sealant failure is from a source external from manufacture. If some cleaner or other chemical was left in the glass tank before the sealant was applied it could lead to delamination. Same contaminates could damage the seals. When did the O ring fail, before or after the delaminating started? Have you removed the drain valves before? Changed the seals? Possible failure fault: Contamination by outside source of incompatible material. B: Seals (O rings) came from a different source then the tank manufacture. They are manufactured for a specific fluid and job. Synthetic rubber is the norm with Buna-N used most for gasoline. Need to see the seal (O ring) and try to determine material. Material is damaged in certain ways by different types of fluids/chemicals. Possible failure fault: Contamination of an incompatible material; Possible damage at installation, expired use date, any thing could make the seal damage not related to the delamation. C: Damage of paint: Gary, if I understand correctly the damage to the paint came after the wings were removed, were upside down and had some chemical in them to loosen the sealant The chemical came out the vent and damaged the paint during the cleanup process. I think the email stated the tanks never leaked? If so then the investigator would not take this problem into the investigation. D: We do not have auto fuel at the airport that Gary and I use. I get my fuel some place else. I do not know how you get fuel. Do you get you fuel from a tank, barrel or whatever? I use a 500 gallon tank, transfer to 100 gallon tank in my truck and then pump into my aircraft. I use electric pumps with time/quantity changed filters on each storage tank. I test the fuel when delivered by the supplier for any alcohol and percentage. HOWEVER, Arizona is now a state that is pro additive and anti aviation (get out and vote) so who knows what we are getting. I stopped using auto gas when this law started. We do not know and will most likely we will never know what chemical came into contact, if any, that MIGHT have caused this. If we could have tested the fuel and delaminated sealant before cleanup was started we most like could have discovered the source or ruled it out through chemical test. We just have to be careful. If a person gets replacement parts from Home Depot just know what your are doing. If you have "letters" after your name you still must be careful, heck, your fuel tank might blow up or something strange you have no control over. Lets all just work together to make "it better then last week". Gary, I happen to have a wing with the fuel tank blown out at the bottom, lets completely open it up and make a "non static producing" power brush that will clean all areas of the tank through the filler cap. Knowing your work ethics,you might have done this and finished the job. It would be nice to see if we can remove sealant this way without a lot of chemical. I do not thing the sealant burned off during the explosion. Call me, I'll be glad to help any way I can, looking forward to flying off your wing when I get released by the Doc. Johnny Thompson http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:34 AM PST US From: "flylightning" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Airshows this weeks end Brian, The warranty on the SLSA aircraft is 1 year 200 hours. I would not worry about the tank sealant we use. If you use 100ll or 93 auto with up to 10% ethanol in it only you will not have a problem. The tanks in question were using ethanol not 100ll, however with several other Lightning's operating with auto fuel and ethanol in the tanks for much longer than the tanks in question there must be another issue and we are working to resolve it. Nick Otterback Arion Aircraft, LLC _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Proett Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 11:13 AM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Airshows this weeks end Nick As a potential costumer, the negative press about the fuel tanks brings up an issue that I should consider with a purchase of one of your products. I understand the issues of homebuilt aircraft and warrantees, but I might consider a SLSA. One of the considerations and selling points of s SLAS is a warrantee and the security of a potentially better built aircraft. What would be the warrantee for a factory built Lightning? 5 years and 50K miles? I will not be returning to the states in 2009 as originally planned but as with most people close to retirement, I took a hit with my savings and I will be postponing retirement for a year. Norway is not a bad place and I really enjoy it here, with the exception that I can not fly here with no medical. Brian Proett _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flylightning Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:45 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Airshows this weeks end Any one in the Tallahassee Area of Florida this week end should head over to Airfest 2009. apparently a real big show with lots of aircraft and performances. Our SLSA Lightning is there and available for demo rides, there is a Jabiru J230 too. As I under stand it Greg is off to a airshow in Payson AZ this weekend too or maybe next weekend but not sure, give him a call and arrange a flight in his new bird. Nick Otterback Arion Aircraft, LLC http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:32 AM PST US From: "Johnny Thompson" <8wn@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Something else in the tank maybe Thanks Gary. Like you, I have owned and used my supply tanks for years to fuel my aircraft so we can eliminate the barrel as something you just got that might have something left over in it that went into your tanks and ate away whatever these 3 separate items have in common. I say 3 because we now have a third manufacture involved, the Gas Collator. It could be as one said,"probably damaged at assembly". I really doubt that since other O rings are involved. I'll be at Gregs and would like to talk. I think something was in the tank at one time before fueling. We need to see the O rings but I am sure they are in the local land fill. We can and should inspect any other part of the fuel system that has rubber such as the hose. Softening or swelling of the rubber indicates a non compatible substance. Nick, If we find indications of damage in the hose to chemical reaction what in the carb is made from rubber and what type. I would suspect that these are ok since the O rings went bad on the first two flights. Gary, If you could move a little slower than the speed of light on this repair I would like to bring a scope over that can look at every inch of the tank and maybe into the fuel line for: 1. If it is now ready for sealant and 2. any signs of more damage. The scope is a $25,000 item and will do everything including go up your nose and look around or find cracks in a 25' long .5" tube. If we do this today you should still be able to finish the sealing this week. So far I still believe we have several different reasons why the sealant delaminated and O rings came apart. Yes, it could have been something during manufacture of the tanks. It could have been something in the tank during wing assembly but do not know of what the manufacture has other than Acetone. I would have thought that would be detected during our build as we clean the tanks before installing the cap. If it was dry Acetone would we detect it or would it do that? Something used during build could case this. I have knowledge of a lot of engine failures caused by something done in the fuel system during build. We just don't know. Gary, I will call a Chemical Engineer friend that lives in Marana and see if he will come and take a look. Group: Any suggestions would be appreciated, decisions would not. We may never know and damage has already been made to potential customer as we saw in a recent email talking about two fuel tank problems. One I assume he was talking about is my explosion. This is an industry wide problem. You will read in the next newsletter the fix I made and how to correct a 1 in a million chance problem. Will the other kits manufactures using the same fuel cap do anything, time will tell. Gary, you attention to detail is helping a lot. Johnny ----- Original Message ----- From: GARY PENNINGTON To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 5:06 AM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Something else in the tank maybe Good morning Johnny Thank you for your kind words. 1. The "O" rings came apart on the sump drains after the first flight. The manufacturer said they were probably damaged during assembly at the factory. The "CirClip" came off the smaller sump drain that fits into the Gas Collator sometime during the second flight. The manufacturer did not know why that happened. He sent new drains with good "O" rings, (that he installed personally), and I have not had further problems. 2. I purchase my fuel from the Chevron Station. I pump it into a 55 gallon barrel. The barrel has a hand crank with "Water Separating" canister type fuel filter. It is the same set up I have used for years on my other planes. 3. You are correct....damage to the wing paint occurred after I removed the wings. I turned the wing over with Ethanol in the tank, (thinking it would remove the remainder of the sealant), and it escaped through the vent tube, ran down the wing and lifted the paint. I used "Acetone" to remove the remaining sealant in the tanks. The tanks are pretty clean. I will call Greg this morning around 8:00 and swing by to pick up the new sealant. If everything goes well, I should have the tanks re-sealed by the end of the week. Then I can repaint. Hope to see you this morning. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Johnny Thompson To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 6:05 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Something else in the tank maybe I met with Gary a few weeks ago to look at his tanks. It was a very, very bad sight. Makes one really sad knowing what is ahead. Just a few weeks before this I had taken pictures of Gary's aircraft. It is beautiful and shows signs of great attention to detail. It was built by a man that takes pride in his work. Not your average homebuilt. I did note that Gary was using auto gas which I also use in some of my planes till Arizona mandated all auto fuel will have special additives to reduce the smog. I have not read the requirement yet but started using 100LL in my planes. From my past career in aviation R&D, maintenance and as an accident investigator in aircraft systems I have picked up two comments from Gary's emails that I just read that set off an alarm bell for me which would guide me, an investigator in a specific area. The aircraft has two different problems. Delimitation of a sealant, failure of two seals. As of now, I believe this is a problem from some type of contamination in the fuel tank. There are two things wrong with the fuel system: Failure in one area, you look everywhere, in two related areas, you first look at what both items have come into contact with. NOTE: MY THOUGHT ARE NOTHING BUT THOUGHTS, LOOKING FOR THE PROBLEM TO PREVENT IT FROM VISITING MY AIRCRAFT. AN INVESTIGATION HAS NOT BEEN DONE BY ME AND THERE ARE A LOT OF FACTS THAT GARY KNOWS THAT WE DON'T. JUST TRYING TO HELP THE COMMUNITY. I DO NOT LIKE ASSUMPTIONS OVER INVESTIGATION BUT THINK IT MIGHT HELP IN THIS CASE. I WOULD SEE THIS EMAIL AS A PROCEDURE TO FOLLOW, DEFINITLY NOT A FACT FILLED REPORT. 1. Sealant delaminated 2. Seals (O Rings) came apart on the sump drains Find if the problem was caused during manufacture, installation of the sump drains, manufacture of the aircraft by builder or contaminants in the fuel or added at fueling. Someone from Mars. This is just a thought process and can only be proven (maybe) by physical investigation. I would really investigate all possible areas of interest since one would not want to make repairs and then have it happen all over again. REMEMBER, AN INVESTIGATION IS TO PREVENT SOMETHING FROM HAPPING AGAIN AND TO FIX THE PROBLEM. NO BLAME TO ANYONE!!!!!! A: I know of no other case of this sealant delaminating, even when at 20% ethanol,auto fuel, 100LL or any other fuel made for a combustion engine. That is just me, not a good source for an investigator. Has the tank manufacture, or sealant, had any other cases of delamination. Gary has the most flight time I have heard on such a new build. I have been told by Nick he has not heard of any other failures. Investigation at this time leads one to assume, but no solid fact, the sealant failure is from a source external from manufacture. If some cleaner or other chemical was left in the glass tank before the sealant was applied it could lead to delamination. Same contaminates could damage the seals. When did the O ring fail, before or after the delaminating started? Have you removed the drain valves before? Changed the seals? Possible failure fault: Contamination by outside source of incompatible material. B: Seals (O rings) came from a different source then the tank manufacture. They are manufactured for a specific fluid and job. Synthetic rubber is the norm with Buna-N used most for gasoline. Need to see the seal (O ring) and try to determine material. Material is damaged in certain ways by different types of fluids/chemicals. Possible failure fault: Contamination of an incompatible material; Possible damage at installation, expired use date, any thing could make the seal damage not related to the delamation. C: Damage of paint: Gary, if I understand correctly the damage to the paint came after the wings were removed, were upside down and had some chemical in them to loosen the sealant The chemical came out the vent and damaged the paint during the cleanup process. I think the email stated the tanks never leaked? If so then the investigator would not take this problem into the investigation. D: We do not have auto fuel at the airport that Gary and I use. I get my fuel some place else. I do not know how you get fuel. Do you get you fuel from a tank, barrel or whatever? I use a 500 gallon tank, transfer to 100 gallon tank in my truck and then pump into my aircraft. I use electric pumps with time/quantity changed filters on each storage tank. I test the fuel when delivered by the supplier for any alcohol and percentage. HOWEVER, Arizona is now a state that is pro additive and anti aviation (get out and vote) so who knows what we are getting. I stopped using auto gas when this law started. We do not know and will most likely we will never know what chemical came into contact, if any, that MIGHT have caused this. If we could have tested the fuel and delaminated sealant before cleanup was started we most like could have discovered the source or ruled it out through chemical test. We just have to be careful. If a person gets replacement parts from Home Depot just know what your are doing. If you have "letters" after your name you still must be careful, heck, your fuel tank might blow up or something strange you have no control over. Lets all just work together to make "it better then last week". Gary, I happen to have a wing with the fuel tank blown out at the bottom, lets completely open it up and make a "non static producing" power brush that will clean all areas of the tank through the filler cap. Knowing your work ethics,you might have done this and finished the job. It would be nice to see if we can remove sealant this way without a lot of chemical. I do not thing the sealant burned off during the explosion. Call me, I'll be glad to help any way I can, looking forward to flying off your wing when I get released by the Doc. Johnny Thompson title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:35 AM PST US From: "flylightning" Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Dougs response to Gary. I have offered to fix the material that is in question even though we have not yet determined what has caused the sealant to delaminate. I have sent enough sealant material to your dealer in AZ, whom is only a short drive away and will be helping you with the fix, so the most logical person to send it to. He awaits a call from you to come out and help. I am not charging you for the sealant, Greg is not charging you shop fee's or labor for any help you may need. We have offered to fix what is in question and provide the help to do so. I have offered all available resources to get your tanks fixed. Nick Otterback Arion Aircraft, LLC _____ From: owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GARY PENNINGTON Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Dougs response to Gary. Doug I think you communicated your position quite well. Answers to your comments: 1. I suppose it is possible that Chevron mixed some mysterious chemical in their fuel that only I purchased for my Lightning. I couldn't rule out the possibility that an alien from outer space visited and contaminated my tanks. Not very likely though! My Lightning is always locked up in a hanger! No, it is far more likely that your tank builder had a bad day and failed to adequately prep the tanks. But then, you wouldn't admit to that. 2. The Lightning builder in Marana, Arizona said it is probably caused by ethanol. Other pilots who have inspected the tanks have said it was poor preparation. Nick also believes it was poor prep. That being the case, where's my replacement wings? By the way, Nick is not offering a "free fix" in any way, shape or form! So far, the only warrantee remedy is two cans of sealant and I don't even have that yet! If someone told you that Arion Lightning is fixing my plane for free, they are a liar! Did someone really tell you that, or, did you just make it up? 3. Arion Lightning has not offered to reimburse me for anything. None of this would have happened if your product was top quality as advertised. 4. Bulllshit! Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Kayberg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 2:34 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Dougs response to Gary. Gary, I dont think I communicated very well. Please let me try again. 1) I am saying that it is POSSIBLE that a substance that should not be introduced to aircraft-type fuel tanks may have gotten in your tanks somehow. It is not uncommon to have contamination problems with auto fuel. It is manufactured and stored to a much lower standard that aircraft fuel. I dont remember if it was just one of your tanks or both. If that occurred it is not a warrantee claim, in my opinion. 2) I am saying that if a part HAS BEEN DETERMINED to have been defective, then it is reasonable for the manufacturer to replace it, of course. But there should be some burden of proof. We live in a country of over-reactive people, witness the recent hysteria over "swine flu". It sounds like in this case Nick is offering a free "fix", which sounds good to me. 3) The slippery slope begins when a parts supplier is asked to pay for a paint job, labor to replace the part, possibly a rental aircraft, or any other "result" of a parts failure. It is my opinion that since they sold parts, not a completed airplane, it is an unreasonable request in the world of Homebuilts. It is part of the reason kits are sold at a greatly reduced price over a completely constructed aircraft. 4) The sloshing sealant that I believe is used has been around a long time. It is probably available in a "speed shop" near you. It has no history of delaminating from any type of alcohol. That also is a clue that something other than alcohol has entered your tank(s). It could be as simple as someone washing the tanks out with "reducer" left over from painting, to "get them really clean". The fumes from acetone or enamel reducer could have broken down a thin spot in the slosh, then gone to work on the bond between sealer and tank. It could have been aided by some contamination from the auto fuel. I really dont know the chemistry exactly, but my point is that it may be possible. You wrote that the sealant has delaminated and the paint has bubbled. Neither should have occurred just from gasoline. Something else is present....at least to my way of thinking. I really dont mind the rest of what you wrote about me. I probably deserve a good dose of it. I do empathize with your situation. I would not want to trade places with you and be standing in your hangar looking at a messed up airplane. It appeared you had done a great job building it and you have flown it a great deal....with a lot of pleasure. I am truly sorry for your situation. It is every builder's nightmare! I also should not have said that Nick should not give you ANYTHING! I meant to say anything other than just the fix or a replacement part. Again, that was my bad communication. I also agree with your warning. The use of auto fuel these days can be risky business. AND it is important to keep checking fuel systems, including filters, screens, gascolator and carb bowl. Best wishes, Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 5/15/2009 3:22:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pennington@q.com writes: Doug, Doug, Doug I can always count on you to take a negative, "Screw the Customer" position. You have voiced this attitude with me before and I ignored it. I just assumed you were a major ASS! But not this time Doug! Now you've gone to far. You are saying that the Arion Lightning Company should not be expected to assume any responsibility what-so-ever for their product . Apparently, you believe that a manufacturer can produce and sell faulty products to unsuspecting customers and the customer should have no recourse when it fails. In your opinion, if something goes wrong, it is always the customers fault. The United States is full of people like you. But thankfully, because of the poor economy, that is changing. Businesses like yours are filing bankruptcy every day and you could be next. With your attitude, you should be next! I'm surprised that Pete hasn't put Duct Tape over your mouth to prevent you from damaging the Lightning reputation. Nick has been courteous during this ordeal and Greg Hobbs is a very nice guy. But not you Doug! You don't give a damn about the customer! Understand this Doug....people who purchase a Lightning aircraft, spend upwards of $100,000.00 for a product that the Arion Lightning staff claim to be high quality and safe. That may be chicken feed to you, but for the rest of us, it is a great deal of money! You to have the audacity to say that we should not expect you to be held accountable? You should be horse whipped! I will offer my services! It must be my imagination that the sealant inside the tanks has delaminated. I must be delusional thinking my wing is sitting there with the paint lifted and wrinkled up. Let me remind you Douggy, I did not build the tanks. Nor did I prep and apply the sealant. Arion Lightning did! You should be thankful that the sealant didn't plug the fuel lines during my last flight. I could have been killed. How do you think the NTSB would view your responsibility in the matter Douggy? Don't think this matter is can be swept under the rug. I'm keeping all applicable emails and I will do my part to inform potential Lightning customers. You have pissed off the wrong guy. One last thing, all the work I did on the plane is functioning perfectly. Don't take my word for it. Ask anyone who has seen it. NOTICE TO PROSPECTIVE LIGHTNING BUILDERS AND CURRENT OWNERS! Check your fuel tanks! Especially if you are burning auto fuel with ethanol. If there is any indication of delaminating sealant , do not fly the plane. Your life may depend on it. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Kayberg@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Where is everyone? In a message dated 5/14/2009 7:07:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pennington@q.com writes: Nick If there was something wrong with the product or the application, will the warrantee cover my losses, .....$100.00 so far in Acetone to remove the nasty stuff from inside the tanks, $500.00 in paint, plugs for the tank, new lens covers for the landing lights that I spoke to about and countless hours of labor....not to mention down time? Gary Pennington Gary, While I feel your frustrations, I want to speak to the notion of a warrantee. I have some bias as a kitplane (SkyRanger) supplier who has heard some rather unreasonable expectations from customers. Since the kits can cost as much as a new car, some folks think the warrantee should be similar!! But once a builder has a kit, there is little control over what happens next. First, I think there is something in your fuel besides alcohol. There is no way ethanol is going to remove your paint, particularly overnight. It just isnt that strong. If you were burning MEK or Acetone, maybe. I think you got a bad batch of fuel. Or somebody hates you at your airport!!! Second, I would hope that Nick would NOT offer anything! I know that sounds harsh and makes me a bad guy, but in cases other than outright mistakes, it is a slippery slope for a supplier of possible aircraft parts to offer much of a warrantee. It is one thing to offer a replacement part for one that is CLEARLY DEFECTIVE, but once it becomes an airplane, the warrantee should be the responsibility of the Manufacturer, which is the person on the nameplate, not the supplier of the parts. The supplier just has very limited control over what happens. I am not saying you did something wrong which caused the problem, I am saying it is difficult to determine cause and effect....because some of the causes may not be known or revealed. Given the number of Lightnings flying who are using auto fuel as well as 100LL, and given that the same material is used in all; it is unlikely a problem caused by the fabrication of the tank. It just seems like something else is going on. Just my $.02. Doug Koenigsberg title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Lightning-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:32 AM PST US From: Kayberg@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Dougs response to Gary II Gary, Again, best wishes. I spent the last 10 years or so doing warrantee work on a variety of water heaters. I found that one of the secrets was getting a good grasp on "cause and effect". Actually, one of my pet theories is that we are becoming a country of bad thinkers....unwilling to really deal with cause and effect. Instead, the tendency is to jump to conclusions without careful thinking. (swine flue anyone?) I observed that when people were in the middle of a big mess they wanted to assign blame quickly to something. Not infrequently I would encounter a bevy of "engineers" who would offer their thoughts as to both the blame and the cause. Many times it was an uphill battle to help everyone understand what had really happened. Many times it was only when I could demonstrate the cause and effect would people change their conclusions. Previous to that, I spent some time working with epoxy products in commercial applications. That also dealt with some failures. I also observed that lots of opinions were offered when there was some product failure by people who considered themselves experts. Yet, the chemistry of bonding is not a simple one. Even more so when it came to the use of solvents to do prep cleaning or post-installation cleaning. For example, you used Acetone to remove the current sealant in your tanks, but do you know how long you need to wait for the tank material to become hard again? (generally solvents work by "softening" the surface) Or is a neutralizing rinse required? I chose to raise some possible causes to your situation in addition to the conclusion that your tanks had problems that were caused by ethanol. To be sure, ethanol CAN cause softening of some materials, but it should not be quickly concluded that it caused YOUR problems. Another post discusses your problems with the tank drains. You felt that the "factory" had miss-installed them. Yet, the wings are shipped from Wisconsin with pipe plugs in them. Someone else had to install the drains. By the way, it is not uncommon to have problems with the drains. Everyone uses them, but they can be temperamental and easily leak if some dirt is present. More significantly, those drains are not installed until the final wing assembly. Typically the plugs are left in while the fuel caps, body work and paint is being done. Then the tanks are vacuumed, rinsed out, the quick drains installed and then filled with fuel. Had someone damaged the tank during vacuuming or rinsing (perhaps with a solvent, Acetone, MEK, Methelene Cloride, etc) that may have given the ethanol a toehold which has finally been noticed. The preliminary damage could have occurred long ago but just shown up now. I understand you have rejected that notion, but in my mind it is still on the table. I have not spoken to Nick or anyone in authority in Lightning land about your or your situation. My thoughts are my own. I assumed that when another post mentioned that the tank sealant was en route it would be offered gratis. My first post simply suggested that it could be a slippery slope to offer much more "warrantee" help. What is different about small "new" production items, in contrast to waterheaters or large volume consumer products is that all those who buy them have a very major stake in the company. There are a lot of "orphan" airplanes out there giving testimony to the perils of kit production. It is important that Lightning sales continue strong and that any production problems be resolved......or conversely non-production problems be properly assigned. We all have a stake in that from both a safety standpoint and a longevity standpoint. Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 5/17/2009 7:13:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pennington@q.com writes: Doug I think you communicated your position quite well. Answers to your comments: 1. I suppose it is possible that Chevron mixed some mysterious chemical in their fuel that only I purchased for my Lightning. I couldn't rule out the possibility that an alien from outer space visited and contaminated my tanks. Not very likely though! My Lightning is always locked up in a hanger! No, it is far more likely that your tank builder had a bad day and failed to adequately prep the tanks. But then, you wouldn't admit to that. 2. The Lightning builder in Marana, Arizona said it is probably caused by ethanol. Other pilots who have inspected the tanks have said it was poor preparation. Nick also believes it was poor prep. That being the case, where's my replacement wings? By the way, Nick is not offering a "free fix" in any way, shape or form! So far, the only warrantee remedy is two cans of sealant and I don't even have that yet! If someone told you that Arion Lightning is fixing my plane for free, they are a liar! Did someone really tell you that, or, did you just make it up? 3. Arion Lightning has not offered to reimburse me for anything. None of this would have happened if your product was top quality as advertised. 4. Bulllshit! Gary Pennington ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:17 PM PST US From: "GARY PENNINGTON" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Dougs response to Gary II This will be my last response to your ramblings. I hope I have the opportunity to meet you someday. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Kayberg@aol.com To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 8:03 AM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Dougs response to Gary II Gary, Again, best wishes. I spent the last 10 years or so doing warrantee work on a variety of water heaters. I found that one of the secrets was getting a good grasp on "cause and effect". Actually, one of my pet theories is that we are becoming a country of bad thinkers....unwilling to really deal with cause and effect. Instead, the tendency is to jump to conclusions without careful thinking. (swine flue anyone?) I observed that when people were in the middle of a big mess they wanted to assign blame quickly to something. Not infrequently I would encounter a bevy of "engineers" who would offer their thoughts as to both the blame and the cause. Many times it was an uphill battle to help everyone understand what had really happened. Many times it was only when I could demonstrate the cause and effect would people change their conclusions. Previous to that, I spent some time working with epoxy products in commercial applications. That also dealt with some failures. I also observed that lots of opinions were offered when there was some product failure by people who considered themselves experts. Yet, the chemistry of bonding is not a simple one. Even more so when it came to the use of solvents to do prep cleaning or post-installation cleaning. For example, you used Acetone to remove the current sealant in your tanks, but do you know how long you need to wait for the tank material to become hard again? (generally solvents work by "softening" the surface) Or is a neutralizing rinse required? I chose to raise some possible causes to your situation in addition to the conclusion that your tanks had problems that were caused by ethanol. To be sure, ethanol CAN cause softening of some materials, but it should not be quickly concluded that it caused YOUR problems. Another post discusses your problems with the tank drains. You felt that the "factory" had miss-installed them. Yet, the wings are shipped from Wisconsin with pipe plugs in them. Someone else had to install the drains. By the way, it is not uncommon to have problems with the drains. Everyone uses them, but they can be temperamental and easily leak if some dirt is present. More significantly, those drains are not installed until the final wing assembly. Typically the plugs are left in while the fuel caps, body work and paint is being done. Then the tanks are vacuumed, rinsed out, the quick drains installed and then filled with fuel. Had someone damaged the tank during vacuuming or rinsing (perhaps with a solvent, Acetone, MEK, Methelene Cloride, etc) that may have given the ethanol a toehold which has finally been noticed. The preliminary damage could have occurred long ago but just shown up now. I understand you have rejected that notion, but in my mind it is still on the table. I have not spoken to Nick or anyone in authority in Lightning land about your or your situation. My thoughts are my own. I assumed that when another post mentioned that the tank sealant was en route it would be offered gratis. My first post simply suggested that it could be a slippery slope to offer much more "warrantee" help. What is different about small "new" production items, in contrast to waterheaters or large volume consumer products is that all those who buy them have a very major stake in the company. There are a lot of "orphan" airplanes out there giving testimony to the perils of kit production. It is important that Lightning sales continue strong and that any production problems be resolved......or conversely non-production problems be properly assigned. We all have a stake in that from both a safety standpoint and a longevity standpoint. Doug Koenigsberg In a message dated 5/17/2009 7:13:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pennington@q.com writes: Doug I think you communicated your position quite well. Answers to your comments: 1. I suppose it is possible that Chevron mixed some mysterious chemical in their fuel that only I purchased for my Lightning. I couldn't rule out the possibility that an alien from outer space visited and contaminated my tanks. Not very likely though! My Lightning is always locked up in a hanger! No, it is far more likely that your tank builder had a bad day and failed to adequately prep the tanks. But then, you wouldn't admit to that. 2. The Lightning builder in Marana, Arizona said it is probably caused by ethanol. Other pilots who have inspected the tanks have said it was poor preparation. Nick also believes it was poor prep. That being the case, where's my replacement wings? By the way, Nick is not offering a "free fix" in any way, shape or form! So far, the only warrantee remedy is two cans of sealant and I don't even have that yet! If someone told you that Arion Lightning is fixing my plane for free, they are a liar! Did someone really tell you that, or, did you just make it up? 3. Arion Lightning has not offered to reimburse me for anything. None of this would have happened if your product was top quality as advertised. 4. Bulllshit! Gary Pennington http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:29 PM PST US From: Kayberg@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Dougs response to Gary II In a message dated 5/18/2009 6:39:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, pennington@q.com writes: This will be my last response to your ramblings. I hope I have the opportunity to meet you someday. Gary Pennington As you wish. May you be back in the air soon. Doug Koenigsberg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:52 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... From: Jim Langley Gary: I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on your problem, but I can say that when I had some of my own issuez with my Lightning, Arion and GL, (specifically Ryan) stayed with me every step of the way. When they say that they want satisified customers, they really mean it. I have never found things to be any different. Best of luck to you and hopes for a speedy resolution. Jim! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:11 PM PST US From: "GARY PENNINGTON" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Thanks Jim How is your beautiful plane doing. How many hours? Have a great day Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Langley To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:15 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... > Gary: I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on your problem, but I can say that when I had some of my own issuez with my Lightning, Arion and GL, (specifically Ryan) stayed with me every step of the way. When they say that they want satisified customers, they really mean it. I have never found things to be any different. Best of luck to you and hopes for a speedy resolution. Jim! http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... From: Jim Langley My plane is flying and will be at the Lancaster fly-in this weekend and Virginia Festival of Flight next. The hours are rising! On 5/18/09, GARY PENNINGTON wrote: > Thanks Jim > > How is your beautiful plane doing. How many hours? > > Have a great day > > Gary Pennington > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Langley > To: lightning-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:15 PM > Subject: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... > > > > > > Gary: > > I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on your problem, but I can say > that when I had some of my own issuez with my Lightning, Arion and GL, > (specifically Ryan) stayed with me every step of the way. When they > say that they want satisified customers, they really mean it. I have > never found things to be any different. > > Best of luck to you and hopes for a speedy resolution. > > Jim! > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:54 PM PST US From: Brian Whittingham Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Gary=2C Sounds like Johnny has offered some excellent help. I am sorry for the damage to your plane. Question. Was the damage to the paint stri ctly from the auto fuel=2C or did it go unnoticed for a while and the time on surface caused the bubbling? The reason that I ask is because I've seen many composites refueled and overflowed. Granted 100LL evaporates much mo re quickly. Anyhow=2C good luck and hope that you send us pics of your pla ne airborne again sometime soon. Johnny=2C Also sorry to here of your unfortunate happenings. I am really glad that you chose to have that in the newsletter. I used it as an examp le safety topic at work. I once saw a guy that was life flighted due to a similar issue with a gas tank on a car. Unfortunately he was not as lucky. Glad to here that you are okay. I want to thank you for offering the hel p to Gary. It shows a true commitment and love of building. I believe thi s to be even more so considering your own current issues. I believe that t he things that you recommended are accurate and warranted. If one componen t in the fuel system had issues a thorough checkout of the rest of it=2C wh ile hopefully just precautionary=2C will help to validate the systems solid arity. I hope to meet you both out west some day. Also loved the article on Greg Hobb's place. Greg and his wife are two of the most hospitable peo ple you'll ever meet. Great place. Take care=2C Brian W. From: pennington@q.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Have faith=2C be patient... Thanks Jim How is your beautiful plane doing. How many hours? Have a great day Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Langley To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday=2C May 18=2C 2009 4:15 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Have faith=2C be patient... Gary: I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on your problem=2C but I can say that when I had some of my own issuez with my Lightning=2C Arion and GL=2C (specifically Ryan) stayed with me every step of the way. When they say that they want satisified customers=2C they really mean it. I have never found things to be any different. Best of luck to you and hopes for a speedy nbsp=3B Features Chat=2C http://www.matnbsp=3B via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p=3B generous bsp=3B title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ================ _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tut orial_QuickAdd1_052009 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:51 PM PST US From: "GARY PENNINGTON" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Awesome! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Langley To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... > My plane is flying and will be at the Lancaster fly-in this weekend and Virginia Festival of Flight next. The hours are rising! On 5/18/09, GARY PENNINGTON > wrote: > Thanks Jim > > How is your beautiful plane doing. How many hours? > > Have a great day > > Gary Pennington > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Langley> > To: lightning-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:15 PM > Subject: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... > > > >> > > Gary: > > I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on your problem, but I can say > that when I had some of my own issuez with my Lightning, Arion and GL, > (specifically Ryan) stayed with me every step of the way. When they > say that they want satisified customers, they really mean it. I have > never found things to be any different. > > Best of luck to you and hopes for a speedy resolution. > > Jim! > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List> > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution> > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:09 PM PST US From: "GARY PENNINGTON" Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Hello Brian The paint lifted after fuel escaped from the vent tube and ran down the wing. Thanks for your concern. Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Whittingham To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 5:47 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Gary, Sounds like Johnny has offered some excellent help. I am sorry for the damage to your plane. Question. Was the damage to the paint strictly from the auto fuel, or did it go unnoticed for a while and the time on surface caused the bubbling? The reason that I ask is because I've seen many composites refueled and overflowed. Granted 100LL evaporates much more quickly. Anyhow, good luck and hope that you send us pics of your plane airborne again sometime soon. Johnny, Also sorry to here of your unfortunate happenings. I am really glad that you chose to have that in the newsletter. I used it as an example safety topic at work. I once saw a guy that was life flighted due to a similar issue with a gas tank on a car. Unfortunately he was not as lucky. Glad to here that you are okay. I want to thank you for offering the help to Gary. It shows a true commitment and love of building. I believe this to be even more so considering your own current issues. I believe that the things that you recommended are accurate and warranted. If one component in the fuel system had issues a thorough checkout of the rest of it, while hopefully just precautionary, will help to validate the systems solidarity. I hope to meet you both out west some day. Also loved the article on Greg Hobb's place. Greg and his wife are two of the most hospitable people you'll ever meet. Great place. Take care, Brian W. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: pennington@q.com To: lightning-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:23:40 -0700 Thanks Jim How is your beautiful plane doing. How many hours? Have a great day Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Langley To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:15 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... > Gary: I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on your problem, but I can say that when I had some of my own issuez with my Lightning, Arion and GL, (specifically Ryan) stayed with me every step of the way. When they say that they want satisified customers, they really mean it. I have never found things to be any different. Best of luck to you and hopes for a speedy nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ================ ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List .com tronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE. See how. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:31 PM PST US From: "Johnny Thompson" <8wn@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Thanks Brian. I have enjoy Gary's company and hope to be flying wingman for him soon. Are you in Houston? My wife & I fly into east Texas a lot. Greg and Crystal are wonderful. They have become wonderful friends\family and will just do about anything for anyone. Heck, Greg even helped me move out of our home and hanger and has stored 3 planes for me this past year. Never heard of a dealer doing that before. Johnny Thompson ----- Original Message -----. From: Brian Whittingham To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 5:47 PM Subject: RE: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Gary, Sounds like Johnny has offered some excellent help. I am sorry for the damage to your plane. Question. Was the damage to the paint strictly from the auto fuel, or did it go unnoticed for a while and the time on surface caused the bubbling? The reason that I ask is because I've seen many composites refueled and overflowed. Granted 100LL evaporates much more quickly. Anyhow, good luck and hope that you send us pics of your plane airborne again sometime soon. Johnny, Also sorry to here of your unfortunate happenings. I am really glad that you chose to have that in the newsletter. I used it as an example safety topic at work. I once saw a guy that was life flighted due to a similar issue with a gas tank on a car. Unfortunately he was not as lucky. Glad to here that you are okay. I want to thank you for offering the help to Gary. It shows a true commitment and love of building. I believe this to be even more so considering your own current issues. I believe that the things that you recommended are accurate and warranted. If one component in the fuel system had issues a thorough checkout of the rest of it, while hopefully just precautionary, will help to validate the systems solidarity. I hope to meet you both out west some day. Also loved the article on Greg Hobb's place. Greg and his wife are two of the most hospitable people you'll ever meet. Great place. Take care, Brian W. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: pennington@q.com To: lightning-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:23:40 -0700 Thanks Jim How is your beautiful plane doing. How many hours? Have a great day Gary Pennington ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Langley To: lightning-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:15 PM Subject: Lightning-List: Have faith, be patient... Gary: I'm not qualified to offer an opinion on your problem, but I can say that when I had some of my own issuez with my Lightning, Arion and GL, (specifically Ryan) stayed with me every step of the way. When they say that they want satisified customers, they really mean it. I have never found things to be any different. Best of luck to you and hopes for a speedy nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ================ ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List .com tronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE. 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