---------------------------------------------------------- Lightning-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/27/09: 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:57 AM - Re: Non Response to TROLL (yhol) 2. 01:11 PM - Re: Lightning-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/26/09 (...) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:46 AM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Non Response to TROLL From: "yhol" Hello Jim, I have been following this list for the last two years or so and your comments have always been helpful to me. In fact, your website and the newsletter are the two main reasons why I will get a lightning of my own within the next six months. Your advise to avoid the troll is a very good one as he has often resolved to bring unjustified incendiary comments and personal attacks to discussions that did not go his way. Older members know that the guy is not easy to discuss with, your post is simply a warning to newer members of the list. It is better than letting someone waste time there without knowing. I hope you stick around and that maybe sometime you may have the opportunity to build another stunning looking lightning. Janin Dupont Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=265213#265213 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:58 PM PST US Subject: Lightning-List: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/26/09 From: "..." WTF?- I thought I spent those years in the military to defend the homeland and our principles of free speech and world-leading productivity (through candid critique and continuous improvement)...not some elizabethan etiquett e and plantation or church manners (like pretending my awesome doomsday B52s =93BUF=94 label stood for Big Ugly Fellow). Nor kowtow to sycophants. Back channel E confirms there is a subset of free-thinking (OK perhaps slightly Family Guy perverse) forum members who find my style entertaining and critically informative but are smart enough to not risk the wrath of lurking prissy puritans or interruption in parts supply by saying so publicly. You dont have to like me or my deliberately provocative delivery. Just rea d the stuff about weekend social fly-ins and admirable completions if that is your preference. But if you choose to read my stuff, why respond by claiming without convincing proof that there is a pattern of falsity or libel in it? By calling for it to be banned so no one can gain from it? Either discuss my observations and positively apply my recommendations or show me where they are wrong or STFU. I have previously apologized and retracted when corrected so suggesting nothing anyone can say will change my positions is lying bullshyte. My key points again - still unchallenged... Was or was not that website riddled with errors which potential buyers migh t consider (wrongly) indicative of an aircraft also riddled with errors? Scarcely a reaction one =93should not care about=94 or a critique one shou ld label =93goofy=94, Doug. Should those errors be identified and repaired? Something tells me they will be so say thank you for that part at least goddamnit. Did I send you a bill? Did Arion or did it not fail to request 51 per cent review (as done by majo r US kit builders) and very nearly lose that option forever? I included the EAA press release on that very FAA review for chrissake. Factual enough fo r you, Jim? Something you didn=92t want anyone else to see? Arion may have had valid limited resource and prioritization reasons for risking that status forever and I applaud their recognizing market trends and belatedly buying an ASTM SLSA/ELSA rubber stamp. Are there build centers in the USA which demean EAA founding principles and risk FAA sanctions (including revoked certificates and registrations) by letting owners pay company craftsmen to do hands-on work and substantially build complex aircraft for them (rather than just give them instruction on how to build) with final approval from captive DARs? Is there or is there not intense high level discussion of whether pre-wired pre-assembled comple x components (such as Arion 100 per cent prefab avionics and instrument panels) require consideration not simply of hours but sophistication required to build and install? Even post-visit, I DO NOT KNOW everything that goes on at your build center but $30,000 seems like a lot of money to pay for a tutor who keeps his hand s in his pockets... and for a fraction of that months light bill. Does or does not the SLSA have a different airfoil, wing length, and stall speed than the kit bird? Are both substantially based on the Esqual design and are Esquals to this day used as test mules for Lightning options and modifications? And, again, correct me if I am wrong. Arion paid good money (which ultimately filters down to increase the price of parts and new product to customers like Janin Dupont who is apparently more interested in piling on than factual rebuttal and in decorum more than de-facts) to some hometown internet churn that did an OK job for Jabiru. When they publish an essentially illiterate and factually flawed site are we all supposed to admire the Emperors new clothes? Worse... you can have your Ford in any color you want so long as it is blac k (no dreaming of taildraggers) and god help anyone who even constructivey criticizes the CEO and HQ Staff. If I have to choose, I would rather be a proud troll than a company whore, Jimbo. Yes, as a loyal supporter of Lightning I am reacting forcefully (and in som e cases overreacting) to even the first hint of trends at Arion which I saw destroy CZAW. Arrogance. Overhyped marketing. Missing certification opportunities and then covering it up. Rewarding adoring buyers and punishing candid ones. Refusal to concede direct lineage from the Zenith line Erwin once produced for the Euro market (and now faces lawsuits for production shortcomings that led to accidents with many of the same subcontractors, materials, designs, workers, and manufacturing processes still used today on Sportcruiser). No one with a non-Alzheimic brain and fourth grade reading skills could think I do not prefer and have continuing admiration for and general confidence in the Arion folks. My deposit will be first in line when the overdue conventional gear option is offered... well maybe second or third s o no one identifies and takes a hit out on me. In self-defense rather than self-aggrandizement, I will close by saying tha t I do not appreciate being called a disease, Miss Jimmy Manners. At worst, I am the moldy Peoria cantaloupe that led to penicillin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message lightning-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Lightning-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/lightning-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/lightning-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.